New CM9 problems - stuck cases.

[JoeyMac]

So I got a new Kahr CM9 a few days ago because I wanted a good small 9mm pistol and my LCP was just not inspiring confidence anymore. Had a few choices and settled on the CM9. Felt tight and had a nice trigger. Spare mags and a few holsters are on order :) I got to take it to the range today for it's break in and brought 200 rounds of various brass cased factory ammo from 115gr-147g; JHP, FMJ, etc...

Started off with 4 mags of basic low powered UMC 115gr FMJ and everything was fine. Accurate little pistol and once I learned the cadence of the DAO trigger I could hold a decent group rapid fire @ 7yds. SO I decided to try something more stout and loaded up some Federal 124gr HST+P (my preferred defense load). Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang *Click*... nothing.

At first I figured i shot the gun dry and perhaps the slide failed to lock back... but then i noticed the protruding extractor and a press check revealed the rim of a round. Bad Primer? Nope. It was the last round in the mag and it was the empty case in the chamber. FTE? The slide would rack about 1/4" back and then stop. This sucker was jammed up tight. At first, I thought the ejector must've broken due to lack of case ejection and then jammed up the slide somehow (it was this tight)... but that was not the issue since I could see the intact ejector looking up the magwell. Then i figured maybe part of the spring or guide rod broke and jammed. Nope. Not only was it a failure to extract... the round was stuck in the chamber so tight it took about 3-4 minutes and all of my strength (6'0" 250LB) to get the slide open. Once the round broke free a little bit the slide racked and it just popped right out.

Nothing looked abnormal about the empty HST+P case and the shot felt normal. I stripped the pistol and nothing looked out of the ordinary. The pistol now hand cycled smoothly again. So I continued the break-in and loaded up some more FMJ fodder.

Shot another mag of 115gr FMJ and then deciding to try some American Eagle 147gr FMJ. Halfway through the 147gr mag... *click*. Once I was sure it was not a hangfire it appeared to be the same issue; stuck case. This time the jam was so bad that the edge of a table could not be used to get the slide to break open and the range trip was finished. I had to use a bench mounted VISE at home to hold the slide while I used two hands to press the frame out of battery. Once again, with the stuck case free the pistol inspection looked normal and nothing was abnormal about the case except for notable extractor marks on the rim from my excessive use of force to break the slide free. Hand cycles 100% smooth again and everything feels normal.

So two show stopping FTE lockups with stuck cases in less than 50 rounds... one so severe that it ended the range trip altogether. Can't be dirt/fouling since the pistol was new, lubed and had less than a box through it. Has anyone heard of this issue? Is there a common fix or does this need to go back to Kahr?

[JoeyMac]

What I find most odd is that after an FTE case gets "stuck" in the chamber the trigger still 'clicks' the hammer. That means that during the shot the slide must've at least travelled enough back to trip the trigger reset with the sear engaging the striker. Is the empty case riding the slide all the way back, failing to eject, then getting slammed back into battery?

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to be as descriptive as possible. I tried calling khar but was on hold for so long their answering machine basically hung up - lol. Figured I'd try here. I love the little pistol and I don't want to give up on it. Gonna try a range trip tomorrow and shoot the remaining 3 boxes.

[tallahasseegreys]

Your theory sounds...well, sound. Not sure why it is happening though. Sounds like it is extracting but not ejecting maybe?? I know many have had no issues with these guns, but I am wondering if Kahr should just start sending return shipping labels with the guns. It might save everyone a lot of time.

Although you never know, I suspect the issue you have is not one that a "break-in period" would solve. Is there any reason to suspect that the gun will not do the same thing again? I would send it back; you are likely to waste ammo, money, range fees, and time otherwise. Just my 2cents.

[JoeyMac]

I figure I can send a few more mags downrange tomorrow. So far it's only been with the heavier recoiling Federal 147 and Federal 124+P. Lets see how it like's Double Tap 124gr+P... does't get much more hot than that.

[muggsy]

Kahr pistols are very tight when new. Assuming that you read the proper break-in of your Kahr sticky, a good clean and lube maybe all that's needed to put you back in business. I would avoid using the +P ammo until you are through the break in period. If it isn't a rough or dirty chamber it's probably an extractor or ejector problem. At any rate I'd talk to a Kahr service rep. about it.

As you surmised the slide has to be traveling back at least far enough to allow you to reset the trigger or you wouldn't hear the click. The casing is either staying in the chamber or the slide isn't traveling back far enough for the case to hit the ejector. Kahr may want to send you a new recoil spring to try before having you send the gun back in for evaluation. The service department is usually very good about correcting problems and returning the gun in a timely manner. If you have to send the gun back request a prepaid mailer to save you the cost of shipping.

[jocko]

for sure try anutter brand of defense ammo. If u have some fine 600+ grit paper or a dremelwiththe cotton polishing cone, u could also give the chamber a good polishing . Ur not gonna hurt it.

[yqtszhj]

What I find most odd is that after an FTE case gets "stuck" in the chamber the trigger still 'clicks' the hammer. That means that during the shot the slide must've at least travelled enough back to trip the trigger reset with the sear engaging the striker. Is the empty case riding the slide all the way back, failing to eject, then getting slammed back into battery?

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to be as descriptive as possible. I tried calling khar but was on hold for so long their answering machine basically hung up - lol. Figured I'd try here. I love the little pistol and I don't want to give up on it. Gonna try a range trip tomorrow and shoot the remaining 3 boxes.

You have an original problem there. I haven't heard of this one. Your Theory sounds plausible though. I would go with what Jocko and Muggsy suggested and see what happens.

My CM9 might have had one hickup during breakin (I can't really remember what if it was) but since then it has been flawless and perfect. Hang in there and let us know what happens. Lots of folks here willing to help out if possible.

[JoeyMac]

Giving it a quick clean and lube right now to head to the range. Will report back later.

[Ikeo74]

Giving it a quick clean and lube right now to head to the range. Will report back later.
When you relube the gun put some grease on the recoil springs. Something heavier than just oil, like chassis greese.

[JoeyMac]

Stripped the pistol, wiped down all the fouling and surfaces inside & out, ran a bore brush through a few times and then 2 patches to get the barrel reasonably clean too. It honestly wasn't that dirty to begin with. Lubed it up generaously with CLP, reassembled and then wiped off excess lube on the outside.

Started with a mag or two of about 50 various rounds ammo:
115gr UMC
S&B 124gr FMJ
Fed AE 147gr FMJ (failed yesterday)
Fed HST 124gr+P (another of yesterdays failures)
Double Tap 124gr Golden Saber +P (was not fun to shoot in a CM9)

All ran 100% fine with slide locking on empty mags. Also, the gun now reliably slingshots and functioning is much smoother than out of the box. Offhand aimed shots are grapefruit sized @ 7yds and rapid fire from retention is still COM on a silhouette. Lovin' it! Finished out the first 50 rounds with some more 124gr S&B and got a failure to slide lock when empty. Oh well... onto a fresh box.

Cracked open a box of S&B 115gr FMJ and halfway through the first mag I had an FTE. Tap, rack... rack harder... rack even harder... ok clear! Keep shooting! At the end of that mag I got another FTE with the slide jamming closed (and obviously it did not slide lock when empty). It took two hands, a couple minutes, and some audible grunting to break the slide open this time. Nothing awkward looking about the offending spent case. I loaded up another mag and three shots into the mag... same thing.

This time it's so jammed up the range session is over. Can't even clear it with my weight on the edge of the shooting bench. On the downside, looks like it going back to Kahr in the near future. 5 such failures in less than 100 rounds is completely unacceptable. I'm thinking it must be a bad chamber or extractor problem.

On the upside, as it stands, looks like I only ever need to buy one box of ammo when I go to the range!

Uploading video of jam now:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/th_IMG_0069.jpg (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/IMG_0069.mp4)

[scosgt]

I am going to go out on a limb here, but I suspect you have an out of spec chamber. Think about the way a gun works - at the instant of firing the case expands out to grab the chamber walls and create a gas seal. Then the case shrinks back down a bit and is pull out of the chamber.
If the chamber is a bit out of round, the case will not shrink back to a size that can be extracted. I have even had this happen in a revolver. The chamber can even be too big or too small.
It CAN also be a timing issue. If the extractor tries to pull the case out before it has shrunk back down, it will grab. HOWEVER, the fact that the case is clearly swollen so much that you can not extract it by hand tells me that the chamber may be oversized. A brass case is designed to expand just so much, and past that point it won't come back to shape.
If you take on of those cases and try to chamber it in another barrel, you probably would need to bang it in with a hammer.
By contrast, a fired case will normally insert into a chamber fairly easily. When my department transitioned to the Glock, we used occasional fired cases inserted into the mags at random to simulate jams. The rounds would usually feed then you got a click, on occasion they would be jammed in so tight they could not be hand extracted, as in your situation.
But I think you should just send it back to Kahr and have them check all the specs. Whether it is a timing or chamber problem it is on them to fix it.

[scosgt]

The OTHER thing that can happen by the way (recoil spring) is that the slide is being pulled back too soon, while there is still pressure in the barrel. This would cause the portion of the empty case that is now outside the chamber to expand or bulge. IF if comes out a small amount, fails to extract, and is then forced back into the chamber, you will get a HARD jam like you experienced.
It is hard to say if it is the recoil spring or one of the parts is out of spec and allowing an early unlock.
This is also dangerous as the partially extracted case will possibly at some point let go, potentially causing injury to the shooter.

[JoeyMac]

Yeah, it's going back. i think whatever the issue is, it's exasperated by fouling and after a few dozen shots the problem starts to affect function. I want to love this gun, it's a sweet gun to shoot and disappears in whatever clothes I'm wearing.

If the CM9 is bunk, I may have to (at my own peril) try to trade it in on a PM9 or MK9. They seem to have fewer incidents in reviews and are the same basic gun for my purposes. But if Kahr can this thing to reliably shoot through 200 rounds in one session, I'm sure it will become my EDC.

[scosgt]

I gave up on my MK9. Fed and extracted perfectly, but I could never cure the PSL.

[CJB]

The OTHER thing that can happen by the way (recoil spring) is that the slide is being pulled back too soon, while there is still pressure in the barrel.

That seems plausible, but in fact would not happen. Even fired with no recoil spring, the barrel would still have to move rearward with the slide the same distance before unlocking, and the bullet move the same distance forward to clear the muzzle. Recoil springs SLOW the slide during recoil but do not appreciably "add weight" to the slide during locking/unlocking.

[CJB]

If the CM9 is bunk

You show me a bunk CM9 going back to the factory.....

.... and I'll show you a CM9 with a new barrel returning to its owner!

[scosgt]

That seems plausible, but in fact would not happen. Even fired with no recoil spring, the barrel would still have to move rearward with the slide the same distance before unlocking, and the bullet move the same distance forward to clear the muzzle. Recoil springs SLOW the slide during recoil but do not appreciably "add weight" to the slide during locking/unlocking.

If the recoil spring is not slowing the slide properly it affects timing.

[JFootin]

... but I could never cure the PSL.

That's a new one. What does PSL mean?

[scosgt]

Premature Slide Lock

Kahrs are very prone to it.

[Cubby]

Premature Slide Lock

Kahrs are very prone to it.

You gotta stop making these things up :). It's hard enough to figure out the shorthand writings as it is :eek:

[jocko]

Yeah, it's going back. i think whatever the issue is, it's exasperated by fouling and after a few dozen shots the problem starts to affect function. I want to love this gun, it's a sweet gun to shoot and disappears in whatever clothes I'm wearing.

If the CM9 is bunk, I may have to (at my own peril) try to trade it in on a PM9 or MK9. They seem to have fewer incidents in reviews and are the same basic gun for my purposes. But if Kahr can this thing to reliably shoot through 200 rounds in one session, I'm sure it will become my EDC.

on this: pure Bj.S. on the cm9 being more troublesome than the PM9 or MK9.:amflag:

[scosgt]

You gotta stop making these things up :). It's hard enough to figure out the shorthand writings as it is :eek:

Trust me, I didn't make it up. It is all over the net. My understand is that there are two things that cause this with the Kahr:
1. The little spring may not be installed correctly.
2. It is very very tight inside a small Kahr due to the small size of the gun, and the rounds coming up in the mag can strike the inside of the slide release lever, causing it to pop up and hold the slide with rounds in the mag.

My CM 40 did it a couple of times with TMJ ammo, but it seems fine now.

I was never able to cure it in my MK-9 and just gave up and traded the gun on a Glock 27.

[Cubby]

Trust me, I didn't make it up. It is all over the net. My understand is that there are two things that cause this with the Kahr:
1. The little spring may not be installed correctly.
2. It is very very tight inside a small Kahr due to the small size of the gun, and the rounds coming up in the mag can strike the inside of the slide release lever, causing it to pop up and hold the slide with rounds in the mag.

My CM 40 did it a couple of times with TMJ ammo, but it seems fine now.

I was never able to cure it in my MK-9 and just gave up and traded the gun on a Glock 27.

Sorry, I wasn't too clear in my post. I wasn't doubting the problem. I've just never heard it called PSL :rolleyes:. I get confused over FTE, FTF and the like???
Of course it doesn't take much to confuse me ...

[deadeye]

I have the same problem Cubby. I'm new to semi-auto's and Kahrs, but I'm slowly getting there. Still having trouble with mim. I've seen it used a few times but haven't got it yet! Now I've learned PSL!!.

[jocko]

I have the same problem Cubby. I'm new to semi-auto's and Kahrs, but I'm slowly getting there. Still having trouble with mim. I've seen it used a few times but haven't got it yet! Now I've learned PSL!!.

minutes and read the propper prepping of ur kahr thread. There are some dandy tips there from members that u can check out urself to seeif some of ur issues are related . behind ever PSL there has to be an issue causing it, some are shooter issues, some are parts issues, some are ammo issues. u just need to take alittle time to read the thead and go thorugh the process of elimination. U might just surprise urself and find the fix.. Just sayin.

The guys here are really here tohelp, not hinder u, . sometimes though a gun just has to go back to the mother ship to get right.. the bottom line is this. We all want our guns to work perfect out of the box, regretably, some do not. now one can get pissed and cuss the gun and maker or he can do some research to find out if his issue could be related to someone's fixes on this forum. Sometimes 15 minutes of doin sumpin beats the hell out of sending it back and waiting for a month. Kahr will always make ur gun right but many times u can make it right urself to..:amflag:

[scosgt]

minutes and read the propper prepping of ur kahr thread. There are some dandy tips there from members that u can check out urself to seeif some of ur issues are related . behind ever PSL there has to be an issue causing it, some are shooter issues, some are parts issues, some are ammo issues. u just need to take alittle time to read the thead and go thorugh the process of elimination. U might just surprise urself and find the fix.. Just sayin.

The guys here are really here tohelp, not hinder u, . sometimes though a gun just has to go back to the mother ship to get right..

I did everything that could be done. Three new slide lock levers, shaved down. New spring to hold the lever down.
Small hands, NOT operator error. I can barely even reach the lever, much less hit it up when firing.
Did it with different ammo from Gold Dot 124+P to Remington JHP to 115 ball.
Just gave up on it, I would never trust my life to that gun.

[jocko]

did u give kahr a shot at fixing the gun???

[scosgt]

did u give kahr a shot at fixing the gun???

No

Traded it for a Glock 27 EXO finish and never looked back.

Glock has no drama. It simply works.

[scosgt]

Actually, that was not the full answer. I was on the phone with Kahr more than 15 times. They did send me a new slide stop lever, which was no help.
At one point I was told:
"I can not do anything more for you. My supervisor said we already lost money on this gun"/

I am not kidding. Kahr really really sucked on that gun.

I tried the CM40, but it was WAY cheaper. When I had some initial problems, Ian was very helpful and did offer to bring the gun in if needed. But I think the problems have been worked out.
I still shoot low, but now I think it is "operator error" because the last time I went to the range, the first shot I locked in and held solid, and it went right down the middle.
Successive shots did tend to string low.
The MK9 shot right down the middle every time, so the answer is there is no answer.

[deadeye]

Sorry Jocko I didn't write that very well. I haven't had even a slight problem with my CM9. It has been perfect all the way. My trouble was with the abbreviations. The only one I haven't figured out is "mim" which I've seen a few times. I wouldn't send my gun to Kahr. They would keep it for themselves!!!!!

[jocko]

here ya go on the MIM definition..


Metal injection molding (MIM) is a metalworking process where finely-powdered metal is mixed with a measured amount of binder material to comprise a 'feedstock' capable of being handled by plastic processing equipment through a process known as injection mold forming. The molding process allows complex parts to be shaped in a single operation and in high volume. End products are commonly component items used in various industries and applications. The nature of MIM feedstock flow is defined by a physics called rheology.[1] Current equipment capability requires processing to stay limited to products that can be molded using typical volumes of 100 grams or less per "shot" into the mold. Rheology does allow this "shot" to be distributed into multiple cavities, thus becoming cost-effective for small, intricate, high-volume products which would otherwise be quite expensive to produce by alternate or classic methods. The variety of metals capable of implementation within MIM feedstock are referred to as powder metallurgy, and these contain the same alloying constituents found in industry standards for common and exotic metal applications. Subsequent conditioning operations are performed on the molded shape, where the binder material is removed and the metal particles are coalesced into the desired state for the metal alloy
go on the MIM:

[Cubby]

Sorry Jocko I didn't write that very well. I haven't had even a slight problem with my CM9. It has been perfect all the way. My trouble was with the abbreviations. The only one I haven't figured out is "mim" which I've seen a few times. I wouldn't send my gun to Kahr. They would keep it for themselves!!!!!

MIM stands for (I think) Metal Injected Molding? It's a less expensive way to make a part? Someone correct me if I'm wrong....

[CJB]

Doesn't have to be less expensive. Its just "another" way. It depends on the part, its tolerances, the volume of material, the number of parts needed, the metal used, hardness and treatment.

[CJB]

If the recoil spring is not slowing the slide properly it affects timing.

Don't trust me, try it ... use a strong framed gun like a 1911.

Then read up how the action is effected by the recoiling parts, etc... If you take on "The Machine Gun" by Chinn, five volumes of it... you 'll get a fair idea of whats happening.

I've been thinking about this.

Something else is going on. I don't think its the chamber.

I've done testing on the PM9 and PM45 and you have to have about 1/4-5/16 gap between the barrel hood and the breech face in order to reset the trigger. How did the trigger get reset? The slide HAD to open that far to reset the trigger, thats a given. So either the case came out of the chamber by at least 1/4-5/16 inches and got seated back into the chamber, or, the extractor jumped over the extraction groove, the slide cycled and then smacked the same case as it came forward again. In the latter instance, why it didn't fully cycle, and jam a round trying to double feed... is a mystery. So, my bet is that the case came out partially, the trigger reset, and then pushed the case back into the chamber - perhaps at an angle, causing the (re)chambering jam.

Only thing that I know of that would cause that on multiple lots of ammo is severe limp wristing, and I don't know if you can limp wrist a Kahr that much.

Still open to ideas. I rule out the chamber because of the nature of the brass, and how it does not always stick, and if the brass were variable, you'd see degrees of problems. We're not seeing degrees of problems, just problem, or no problem.

[jocko]

u have a good point on the trigger reset.The slide m.ust retract at least a 1/4" or more to reset the trigger

[JFootin]

Premature Slide Lock

Kahrs are very prone to it.

Thanks for the translation. But, no, Kahrs are not "very prone" to PSL. The shooters are very prone to getting their thumbs up against the slide lock lever when shooting them because the guns are so small. Do we see an occasional post here about PSL caused usually by a loose or bent slide lock spring? Yes, because the owners don't read the manual about how to reinsert the slide lock lever when assembling the gun, so they damage it. But this is the Kahr forum. You're going to see problems reported here. Most of them are user caused. And you will see those same users posting negative comments about Kahrs on other forums, too. We usually get them straitened out and their problems solved when they ask us for help.

[scosgt]

Thanks for the translation. But, no, Kahrs are not "very prone" to PSL. The shooters are very prone to getting their thumbs up against the slide lock lever when shooting them because the guns are so small. Do we see an occasional post here about PSL caused usually by a loose or bent slide lock spring? Yes, because the owners don't read the manual about how to reinsert the slide lock lever when assembling the gun, so they damage it. But this is the Kahr forum. You're going to see problems reported here. Most of them are user caused. And you will see those same users posting negative comments about Kahrs on other forums, too. We usually get them straitened out and their problems solved when they ask us for help.

And I will say it again.
I did everything possible and could not cure it. And I was not hitting the lever with my thumb. I even shot left handed just to be sure, still did it.
I replaced both the screw and the spring.
I replace the lever three times, even shaving one down so far it would not lock on the empty mag.
I just got a lemon.

[JFootin]

And I will say it again.
I did everything possible and could not cure it. And I was not hitting the lever with my thumb. I even shot left handed just to be sure, still did it.
I replaced both the screw and the spring.
I replace the lever three times, even shaving one down so far it would not lock on the empty mag.
I just got a lemon.

I'm sorry you have had such trouble with your gun. The one thing left to do is to contact Jay at Kahr CS. Hopefully, he will send you a prepaid label to send it in to them. Best of luck! :)

[scosgt]

I'm sorry you have had such trouble with your gun. The one thing left to do is to contact Jay at Kahr CS. Hopefully, he will send you a prepaid label to send it in to them. Best of luck! :)

As I stated, I traded it for a Glock 27 EXO. Took my loss and walked away.

[JFootin]

As I stated, I traded it for a Glock 27 EXO. Took my loss and walked away.

So, without giving Kahr the chance to fix it, you dumped it off unfixed on someone else and then come on here and bash all Kahrs.

TROLL ALERT! TROLL ALERT!

[deadeye]

Somebody would have one hellova time convincing me Kahrs are bad. Mine's a jewel!

[jocko]

agree, I have 3 POS kahrs, that the damn guns just go bang every time. Not sure what i should do about it either. I never look down my barrel either to give givbe me an excust to blame the barrel for me not being able to hit jack sh!t, as I must have 3 bad barresl, for they all shoot the same way. IT CANNOT BE OL JOCKO. IT JUST CAN'T BE.

[scosgt]

So, without giving Kahr the chance to fix it, you dumped it off unfixed on someone else and then come on here and bash all Kahrs.

TROLL ALERT! TROLL ALERT!

Now you are acting like a complete *******.

I traded it to A DEALER. No one is "stuck". The dealer can send it to Kahr if it comes to that. Maybe the next buyer won't have PSL with it, or even carry it. Here in NY very few people have full carry permits like me, so reliability is not a big issue for most buyers, and Kahr is not that popular, because being smaller does not do much for you if you can't legally carry it.

I DID NOT bash Kahrs. If you bothered to read, I bought a CM40 recently and after a few break in issues it is working fine. How is that bashing?

On the MK-9 I got HORRIBLE service from Kahr. After numerous attempts to fix the gun, they told me flat out that "they already lost money on my gun and can not do anything else".

If you want to call that bashing, fine. I call that horrible customer service. I did not send it in because, THEY TOLD ME THEY WOULD NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE TO FIX THAT GUN.

I did better with the CM40. Ian did send me a replacement follower.

[deadeye]

When I was a young feller an old man told me something I've never forgotten. He said that after a lifetime of being a auto mechanic he had seen very few lemon cars. Lot of lemon drivers, though.

[JFootin]

Now you are acting like a complete *******.

I traded it to A DEALER. No one is "stuck". The dealer can send it to Kahr if it comes to that. Maybe the next buyer won't have PSL with it, or even carry it. Here in NY very few people have full carry permits like me, so reliability is not a big issue for most buyers, and Kahr is not that popular, because being smaller does not do much for you if you can't legally carry it.

I DID NOT bash Kahrs. If you bothered to read, I bought a CM40 recently and after a few break in issues it is working fine. How is that bashing?

On the MK-9 I got HORRIBLE service from Kahr. After numerous attempts to fix the gun, they told me flat out that "they already lost money on my gun and can not do anything else".

If you want to call that bashing, fine. I call that horrible customer service. I did not send it in because, THEY TOLD ME THEY WOULD NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE TO FIX THAT GUN.

I did better with the CM40. Ian did send me a replacement follower.

I apologize. Kinda overreacted there. Peace! :hippie:

[scosgt]

I apologize. Kinda overreacted there. Peace! :hippie:

Forgiven:amflag:

[JimC]

Somebody would have one hellova time convincing me Kahrs are bad. Mine's a jewel!

All you have to do is take time to read the various posts submitted by Kahr owners who have had legitimate issues with their Kahr pistols.

Many of these pistols have had to go back to Kahr in order for their owners to get them running 100% but they are usually pleased afterwards.

Yes, there are people who maybe should not be owners of any type of firearm but that's just the way it is sometimes with many products.

I've had no problems with my PM9 but...the magazines are another story and if they are bad, that makes the pistol bad as far as proper function or use.