Newbie with new PM9- why no sticky's? Back from Robar-range report

[Swat_dude]

I just bought a new black slide pm9 along with 200 rounds of magtech ammo for break-in. I shot all 200 without a single malfunction and I didn't have the slide racking problem I've heard about, but I'm sure it is probably my deliberate racking technique. After the break-in ammo, I ordered some XS big dots from the Kahr website and just dropped the gun off at Robar (I live in Phoenix) for them to install the sights and for an NP-3 coating on the barrel, internals and the mags. During the LONG six-week wait, I am going to decide on a holster and what "duty" ammo I will carry in it. I would have loved to seen some stickys on what holster everyone is using, specifically the pocket variety, and also some chronograph info on some popular defensive loads. I am considering the Corbon 100 gr PB, Corbon 115 +P JHP, Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P, and the 115 gr Buffalo Bore ammo.

I know there are ammunition and holster sections on the forum but with the popularity of the PM-9, it seems like it would be easier to have that info on this specific model here. Any thoughts?

[Bawanna]

I just bought a new black slide pm9 along with 200 rounds of magtech ammo for break-in. I shot all 200 without a single malfunction and I didn't have the slide racking problem I've heard about, but I'm sure it is probably my deliberate racking technique. After the break-in ammo, I ordered some XS big dots from the Kahr website and just dropped the gun off at Robar (I live in Phoenix) for them to install the sights and for an NP-3 coating on the barrel, internals and the mags. During the LONG six-week wait, I am going to decide on a holster and what "duty" ammo I will carry in it. I would have loved to seen some stickys on what holster everyone is using, specifically the pocket variety, and also some chronograph info on some popular defensive loads. I am considering the Corbon 100 gr PB, Corbon 115 +P JHP, Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P, and the 115 gr Buffalo Bore ammo. I just don't have the forum "know how". Any mods feel like starting some?
Welcome to the asylum, living so close to Robar would keep a man very poor. Hard enough using the mail, they do good stuff. As far as forum know how, I don't got it either but I know if you just sit back and wait for it, information will come to you from good guys with good answers. Sort out fact for opinion once in awhile and toss the bad and keep the good and it'll all be good. Some good folks here for sure, sadly I think I'm the only normal one but the others are all relatively close too. Enjoy. I do know that pictures of ones Kahr are pretty much a prerequisite to forum policy and I acknowlege that this would be difficult with your gun at Robar but lets see it when you get it back. OK?

[Swat_dude]

I will definitely post some pics when it gets back. I normally have the slide coated as well but since this is a CCW gun, I just thought the black slide would be more covert.

[Bawanna]

The DLC coating it wore from birth is good stuff anyhow. Tough to beat. If it ever wears out you can always visit Robar AGAIN.
Robars loves my department, we sent down 40 G21SF's for grip reduction and texture and bought 2 of their SR90 sniper rifles. Our budget is in the toilet but somehow they came up with funds to get er done. Again they do nice stuff. They must be busy if you gotta wait 6 weeks. Took a year to build our rifles but the Glocks were about 2 week turnarounds, had to send only 5 at a time, that was a pain but it's over now.

[deadhead1971]

Welcome. 6 weeks!

I pocket carry with a nylon #4 Blackhawk holster. It's fits great and it also works with the crimson trace LG 437 laser.

I have not totally settled on defensive ammo. I carry 124 grain speer gold dots hollow points in the gun and magazine. (standard pressure)

In the 7 round back-up mag, I carry federal hydra-shok 124 grain hollow points (standard pressure).

I have shot some 147 winchester personal defense ammo (cheap hollow points). The 147s kick more but they travel at slower velocities--sub sonic as they say.

I have tried some +p Pow'r ball 100 grain. It kicks too but my problem is it really dirties up the laser lens only after a few shots (like 4). I would probably carry this if I don't have the laser attached.

[Swat_dude]

I have the LCP with the Crimson Trace Laser but I started having inadequacy issues regarding the performance of 380. I opted not to go with the laser on my PM-9 and went with night sights instead. Do you find the point of aim creeps a bit on the CT? I tightened that sucker down to the point I thought I might ruin it on my LCP but I still felt like it was wandering after putting 25-50 rounds through it. Of course it could have been just me.

[jocko]

I will definitely post some pics when it gets back. I normally have the slide coated as well but since this is a CCW gun, I just thought the black slide would be more covert.

u bought there. I shoot the power ball and the corbon 125 grain HP and also the gold dots. all work great and I am pleased with any of the above that I load into the magazine. break the gun in right and it willservce you will..:third:

[jocko]

I will definitely post some pics when it gets back. I normally have the slide coated as well but since this is a CCW gun, I just thought the black slide would be more covert.

u bought there. I shoot the power ball and the corbon 125 grain HP and also the gold dots. all work great and I am pleased with any of the above that I load into the magazine. break the gun in right and it will serve you will..:third:

[deadhead1971]

The first time I shot with the laser, it moved right after 50 shots.

Since then, it seems to stay in place.

[Little Dragon]

Hornady Critical Defense!! Great stuff, runs in mine great and no worries about not expanding or over penetration!

[Frankhenrylee]

I'm still looking for someone that will let me test ammo on them but no volunteers yet. I'm still holding out for it though, and I have a birthday coming up. Can anyone guess what my wish will be. I promise, nothing fatal

[kahrseye]

I use an Uncle Mike's #3 pocket holster, works well. I carry Hornady Critical Defense Ammo, but have used Hydrashoks in my other weapons. I also have a PM9 and have put 250 rounds through it....all flawless. I really like the gun, it's very accurate. Good luck with yours and welcome to the forum.

[Glock3540]

Swat dude,
I just today ordered a PM9 today with the crimson trace laser.
My dealer could not find a matte stainless. He found a blackened
slide model and it was only 5 bucks more so I ordered it.
I'm planning on polishing the slide anyway.

I called Ken Null to have him make me a ANK holster for it.
He said he did not have the laser for the mold so I'm shipping
mine to him when I get it. This guy arguably makes the best
ankle holster on the market.

I also contacted XS sights to see what they will charge me
to install one of their excellent Big Dot sights (tritium front and rear)
on the PM9. They advertise on their website that they now offer
installation so we will see what they charge.
I plan to polish the slide and then send it to them for the sights install.
On some of my past "polish" jobs, it is very difficult to polish around the sights
without touching them and thereby taking off some of the "black" coating.

I love my Glocks (after I modified the trigger guards a little so they would
fit me better) but even the G27, that I carry daily,gets a little heavy (if I try to ankle
carry) and is just a tad too big.

I have never even held a Kahr (that I can remember) but am ordering it sight
unseen due in no small part to the people on this forum.
I hope I like it!
I also hope there are no peeling plating issues!

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

God Bless,
Brian

[Bawanna]

I think your gonna like it alot Glock3540. We have a few around here as backup and off duty guns and the guys really like em, so small, incredibly accurate. Just a great little gun. We've had zero problems with them.

[Bawanna]

GLOCK3540 said:I just today ordered a PM9 today with the crimson trace laser.
My dealer could not find a matte stainless. He found a blackened
slide model and it was only 5 bucks more so I ordered it.
I'm planning on polishing the slide anyway.

:) You are going to polish a DLC black slide ???....HOW ? and WHY ?:confused:

+1 on that question, I was gonna ask but didn't want to look dumber than I already am.

[jocko]

Swat dude,
I just today ordered a PM9 today with the crimson trace laser.
My dealer could not find a matte stainless. He found a blackened
slide model and it was only 5 bucks more so I ordered it.
I'm planning on polishing the slide anyway.

I called Ken Null to have him make me a ANK holster for it.
He said he did not have the laser for the mold so I'm shipping
mine to him when I get it. This guy arguably makes the best
ankle holster on the market.

I also contacted XS sights to see what they will charge me
to install one of their excellent Big Dot sights (tritium front and rear)
on the PM9. They advertise on their website that they now offer
installation so we will see what they charge.
I plan to polish the slide and then send it to them for the sights install.
On some of my past "polish" jobs, it is very difficult to polish around the sights
without touching them and thereby taking off some of the "black" coating.

I love my Glocks (after I modified the trigger guards a little so they would
fit me better) but even the G27, that I carry daily,gets a little heavy (if I try to ankle
carry) and is just a tad too big.

I have never even held a Kahr (that I can remember) but am ordering it sight
unseen due in no small part to the people on this forum.
I hope I like it!
I also hope there are no peeling plating issues!

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

God Bless,
Brian

screw up one hell of a great slide and finish. That finish is tuffer than your glock finish. I doubt if your gonna do much polishing on the DLC kahr slides, let alone put any shine on it by doing it. Take this forums advice and leave it alone. That is one super hard to find finish even and for $5 bucks difference you stole that finish.

You won'thave any peeling issues and your gonna love it even better than your nice glocks to. Feel, size and weight just make this gun say "pocket me please".

You might want to refer to the kahr tech secion and hit on PROPER PREPPING OF YOUR NEW KAHR. It will help you alot . Nice gun, really is. MY PM9 has 25,800 rounds through it and never one issue. Just goes bang every time and shoots almost where I aim:third:

Your gonna find a big big difference in the kahr trigger system over your glocks. Not the easiest to master for some but smoother than any trigger system you ever had but extremely looooooong trigger pull compared to your glocks. 3/8" trigger travel that you cannot change,but if you can shoot a DA revolver then you shold be go to go with a kahr. It is what it is,,,, a close up defense gun that will not let you down, the xs big dots are awesome to but again they ain't target sights but they sure do get you on target faster than any sight I have ever tried. Ur smart in letting someone put those sights on to, for kahrs factory sights are just buggers to even move, let alone to remove... Kahr also sells them and installs them. all is needed is the slide and u can send that regular mail for about $5. They have good turn around time..

[Glock3540]

Thanks Guys,
OK, You've talked me into it. I'll leave the finish alone.
I just thought it would look nice polished.
I did not realize the finish was that "tough".

JOCKO,
I just assumed the black finish was painted and/or baked on like
some of the high tech paints used today. I had no idea it was tougher than
my factory Glock finish. I also assume that you are referring to the black phosphate outer finish on my Glocks. I've read the actual Tenifer finish is relatively colorless.
Meaning it does not alter the color/tint of bare steel but actually penetrates the steel a few thousands of an inch and makes the already hard steel Much Harder.

Again, I know very little about Kahr but what I have learned it seems to be a Very Good Company that produces excellent firearms.

Thank You for the advice and I have already glanced at the tech section.

25,800 rounds! Wow. What a testament to excellent engineering and build quality!
Some very highly regarded pistols would be toast long before reaching that round count. Considering the relatively small size of the PM9 makes the engineering Kahr put into this weapon amazing. I mean a sub compact in a powerful caliber like the 9mm...,Wow.

I considered the PM40 but I think it pushes the envelope in power to weight
in a firearm. From what I have gleaned here and elsewhere, the PM40 has more problems and with the extra power. I cannot see it lasting as long as the PM9.
My G27 lets you know you are shooting a powerful caliber especially with the Cor Bon's I keep it stoked with. I'm not a small guy, almost 6'2" 225 lbs. linebacker build
but I wince to think of how the PM40 recoils with some hot loads. I don't like
shooting my P3AT because of the bite it gives me.

I Really Think I'm Going To Like This PM9!

And to think I almost bought a Sig P238 Tactical Laser in .380!
Men, I'm glad I found you guys!!

Blessings,
Brian

[deadhead1971]

Brian-

The PM9 is a range gun and a target gun. You can shoot it a lot, and it won't feel uncomfortable, and it's accurate. The most I have shot in one session was 250 rounds, and my hand was not sore.

I have found that with the stock iron sights, I could shoot ok to about 25 to 30 feet (good groups). Beyond that, I have trouble.

However, with the laser, your groups will be ok at 75 feet (aka 25 yards) and super at closer distances. Go see my thread on accuracy for the PM9.

The trigger pull is going to be your biggest challenge. The first time I shot the PM9, all the hits were about 3" left of point of aim. I immediately thought I needed to bang the rear sight to the right. Over time with practice and now at about 1,600 rds, I think I have finally figured out this trigger pull, and my hits are now dead center with an occasional hit to the left or low when I jerk the gun in anticipation of the recoil.

FYI
As far as the LG 437 laser batteries, I just had to replace them 2 days ago, and I got the laser in February. But it has seen very heavy use. The laser does NOT slowly go dim when the batteries are losing power. While having the laser on at normal intensity, it just all of a sudden goes dim--just that quick.

[Sandman]

screw up one hell of a great slide and finish. That finish is tuffer than your glock finish. I doubt if your gonna do much polishing on the DLC kahr slides, let alone put any shine on it by doing it. Take this forums advice and leave it alone. That is one super hard to find finish even and for $5 bucks difference you stole that finish.

You won'thave any peeling issues and your gonna love it even better than your nice glocks to. Feel, size and weight just make this gun say "pocket me please".

You might want to refer to the kahr tech secion and hit on PROPER PREPPING OF YOUR NEW KAHR. It will help you alot . Nice gun, really is. MY PM9 has 25,800 rounds through it and never one issue. Just goes bang every time and shoots almost where I aim:third:

Your gonna find a big big difference in the kahr trigger system over your glocks. Not the easiest to master for some but smoother than any trigger system you ever had but extremely looooooong trigger pull compared to your glocks. 3/8" trigger travel that you cannot change,but if you can shoot a DA revolver then you shold be go to go with a kahr. It is what it is,,,, a close up defense gun that will not let you down, the xs big dots are awesome to but again they ain't target sights but they sure do get you on target faster than any sight I have ever tried. Ur smart in letting someone put those sights on to, for kahrs factory sights are just buggers to even move, let alone to remove... Kahr also sells them and installs them. all is needed is the slide and u can send that regular mail for about $5. They have good turn around time..

Hello,
First i would like to say hello I'm new to this forum. I will be picking up my first ever Kahr this Saturday a PM9 9094N, I've been carrying a Glock 23 for a very long time and was looking for something lighter and smaller and finally deciding on the PM9. I was a bit concerned about reliability of the PM9 until I read this post and some of the others on the this site.

Thank you!

[In-Yo-Grill]

+1 on that question, I was gonna ask but didn't want to look dumber than I already am.

It's not a dumb question. It was the first thing that stood out to me in that post. If you didn't want the DLC on the slide then just be patient and order a stainless one.

Interested to see how much XS charges you to put on their sights. I guess you could always just send the slide to Kahr and have them do it.

[Swat_dude]

I have carried Glocks for years and I still think with all the copies they are still the orginal and best. My service model 22 has never malfunctioned...EVER. It is going on 16 years and all I've done is replace the recoil spring. You are correct, the Tenifer finish is basically a salt-nitride that changes the properties of the surface metal to be extremely hard and corrosion resistant. Many high end rifle manufacturers are going to nitrided barrels because the barrels can be cut with much greater accuracy without the chrome to screw them up. The nitriding process assures the bores will last through thousands of rounds. Kahr has done one better and most, if not all of the parts are extremely high grade Stainless Steel. This is through-metal corrossion resistance and unlike a coating, will always be there.

I understand some folks have had some reliablity issues with their Kahr pistols but mine functioned flawlessly for the first 200 rounds. I even attempted to limp wrist it to get it to malfunction and it would not. This gun is WAAAAY more comfortable to shoot than my Ruger LCP and Keltec P3AT. And with a much more substantial caliber.

As much as people on the internet "dream" of the perfect weapon, the chances of a manufacturer putting out all 100% weapons all the time is just slim to, well it is none. This is when having a responsive customer service is a must. EVERY manufacturer lets an ocasional lemon slip by and the higher the volume, the more likely it is. It is just the odds plain and simple.

Feed your Kahr good practice ammo. As expensive as it might be, run at least 100 rounds of your carry round through the gun to verify functioning. This will be my primary CCW gun and it amazes me how people are willing to skimp on their carry ammunition. How much is your life worth? There are tradeoffs to any weapon. The Kahr is extemely slim and this is due to some compromises with the feed ramp and trigger mechanism. Some blunted hollowpoints are not going to be a good match for this gun. If you want something to eat everything, I would suggest going back to your FAT Glock 26.

[OldLincoln]

I don't know if you ankle carry a lot, but a loaded PM9 may be a tad heavy. Unless you are sure, you might want to check it out before you get the holster made.

[G26ster]

Interested to see how much XS charges you to put on their sights. I guess you could always just send the slide to Kahr and have them do it.

From the XS web site

News

We now offer installation on most models.
CALL 1-888-744-4880 for info.

Current turnaround time is under one week in most cases.

[Glock3540]

Bo Wallace just emailed me today.
Install is $40.00, $120.00 for the sights and $9.00 shipping.
Is this in line with what Kahr charges?
I think I would prefer Kahr to install them. Being much more
familiar with the gun and the "blackened" finish, they may be less
likely to damage the weapon, cosmetically or otherwise.
What do you guys think?

Blessings,
Brian

[Bawanna]

Bo Wallace just emailed me today.
Install is $40.00, $120.00 for the sights and $9.00 shipping.
Is this in line with what Kahr charges?
I think I would prefer Kahr to install them. Being much more
familiar with the gun and the "blackened" finish, they may be less
likely to damage the weapon, cosmetically or otherwise.
What do you guys think?

Blessings,
Brian

Personally I don't think I'd have any issues with XS doing the install. Damaging the sights themselves is just as bad as damaging the gun. I'm sure they have the right equipment and know how or they would not have started offering to install. I think they are a first rate company and I love their sights. Nothing wrong with having Kahr do it either. It'll be interesting to hear some service reports on time turn around and quality. Usually most of the place that do this stuff have pretty fast turn around times. Novak, Trijicon, Robar, all pretty fast.

This poster received no monetary incentive for voicing his feeble opinion.

[jocko]

I would have full faith in either company doing the installation. It is not rocket science and they are in the business of doing this stuff, so one would certainly think they have the most modern of tools to do the job. over my brass punch set that is half broken and half bent in trying once to removed my factory kahrs sights.

If I was going to order the xs sights from xs direct, then I would send the slide to them and let them do it, If I was going to order them from kahr, then I would send kahr my slide and let them do it. Money well spent with either IMO.

[Glock3540]

Hey Guys,
I just picked up my pistol. It is NOT the black slide model.
My dealer thought it was the blackened model but it was not.
The pistol, background check, C/T laser, tax and all was $835.00.
I'm pleased with the deal.

Initial impressions are very positive. With my G27, and no pinkie
extension, my grip on the weapon is no where near as "positive"
as it is with this PM9. It must be the girth of the PM9 being slimmer,
feels much nicer than my G27, again, without any magazine extensions.
The gun feels like a quality weapon and the trigger pull is smooth as
you guys have instructed me it would be.
I think this will make a very good ankle weapon.
I'm looking foward to getting my XS's installed and my holster made.
It may take me awhile because I may polish the slide now since it does
not have the black on it. I know, I know, it is probably better to leave it stock
but the Kahr's special polished slides look pretty good. I just do not
care for the engraving...

Thanks for the responses and advice guys, It is very much appreciated.

Blessings,
Brian

P.S. I bought a box of ammo while I was there today. He had Winchester
Supreme "personal protection". The 147 gr look like some of my
old "Black Talon" rounds I still have but without the black finish.
I am a Cor Bon guy and most likely will still use them for my carry rounds
(DPX maybe?). What do you guys think of this Winchester round?

[Bawanna]

Post some pictures after you polish your slide. I've been pondering polishing mine after I polished the barrel, hood and feed ramp. I think it would look nice polished a bit more. Maybe not chrome bumper shiney but somewhere in between. Guess I'm just chicken and a bit afraid?
We used the Winchester ammo at my dept when we used to carry 9's. Worked fine with no issues. Actually we used the Winchester when we went to 40's and now 45's too. Seems like a trend to me.
I'm a Gold Dot fan myself but I've been to the Winchester ammo seminars, drank their kool aid and they work good too. Of course the SXT stuff is in fact the politically correct nasty Black Talon.

[Swat_dude]

I would steer clear of the 147 grain projectiles and stay in the 115 to 125 range. I think I have decided to load the first 4 rounds with 100 grain PB and the last 3 with Gold Dot +P's for better barrier performance. My spare 7 rounder will have the rounds staggered every other one PB and GD.

[Bawanna]

I would steer clear of the 147 grain projectiles and stay in the 115 to 125 range. I think I have decided to load the first 4 rounds with 100 grain PB and the last 3 with Gold Dot +P's for better barrier performance. My spare 7 rounder will have the rounds staggered every other one PB and GD.

For what miniscule amount it might be worth, I agree. We were using full size Beretta 92's. The small PM9 should work much better with the lighter bullets. I don't agree completely with the barrier theory. If the BG is behind a barrier us civilians anyhow should be taking advantage of that time to be fleeing for our very lives, unless of course your just talking heavy clothing as a barrier.

[jocko]

I would steer clear of the 147 grain projectiles and stay in the 115 to 125 range. I think I have decided to load the first 4 rounds with 100 grain PB and the last 3 with Gold Dot +P's for better barrier performance. My spare 7 rounder will have the rounds staggered every other one PB and GD.

my carry round but certaily a darn nice range fodder round when the price is right That staggered stuff????? Well I guess each to his own..

[Swat_dude]

For what miniscule amount it might be worth, I agree. We were using full size Beretta 92's. The small PM9 should work much better with the lighter bullets. I don't agree completely with the barrier theory. If the BG is behind a barrier us civilians anyhow should be taking advantage of that time to be fleeing for our very lives, unless of course your just talking heavy clothing as a barrier.

The barrier's I am talking about are vehicle windshields in the case of someone running you down, drywall in the case of someone in your home, and all other kinds of glass, metal or wood that could be encountered in an armed confrontation. From alot of the data I've seen, the Powerball flies through 4 layers of denim but is substandard on barriers. The Gold Dot and the Winchester bonded bullets are the proven barrier performers but are substandard expanders when encountering anything other than flesh. I've read pro's and con's to high velocity bullets but I don't think anyone would question which is better, 140 grain .308 moving over 3000 fps or a wider diameter 147 grain 9mm moving 1100 fps. Anyone who says hydrostatic shock is not a factor has never examined the innards of an animal after being shot with a fairly decent rifle round. The rifle round is smaller and the same weight but the speed is what gives it its devastating effect. This is why I like Corbon.

When someone comes out with the perfect defensive round, I would consider doing away with the stacked method.

[Swat_dude]

Just found out Robar has a new coating called NP3 PLUS. It bumps the corrossion resistance to a 1000 hour salt spray which is incredible for a 1 mil coating. I called and had them change my order. Sheesh this PM9 thing is getting expensive!!!

http://www.robarguns.com/NP3PLUSlowres-V05.pdf

[Swat_dude]

I got my PM-9 back from Robar on Thursday and immediately took it to the range. I ran 80 rounds of 124 Gold Dot +P (saving 20 for carry) through it and had ONE malfunction the first time I ran the extended mag. The slide locked back and as I was looking to see what had caused the malfunction, it slammed closed. I could not get it to malfunction again with either mag, even though I tried to intentionally limp wrist the gun. I also tried 20 rounds of Corbon Standard JHP's and I will not be carrying this round. I had 3 malfunctions out of 20 rounds, all with the hollowpoint caught on the feed ramp. I also ran 30 rounds of 100 grain Corbon Powerball (saving 10 for carry) with no malfunctions. This is probably the best feeding HP round just due to its fully rounded nose. The XS big dot sights were scary accurate. When I did my job, the Gold Dot was exactly at the point of aim at 7 yards. I should note that I didn't lube the gun but took it immediately from Robar to the range. After I cleaned it and lubed it, the slide seemed to cycle MUCH smoother than when I had picked it up. I have decided to carry a mixture of Gold Dot and PB in my mags because I really couldn't discern much difference in felt recoil between the two and I like the barrier performance of the Gold Dot and the Denim layer performance of the PB. I will take some pics when I get home tonight.

[Bawanna]

I got my PM-9 back from Robar on Thursday and immediately took it to the range. I ran 80 rounds of 124 Gold Dot +P (saving 20 for carry) through it and had ONE malfunction the first time I ran the extended mag. The slide locked back and as I was looking to see what had caused the malfunction, it slammed closed. I could not get it to malfunction again with either mag, even though I tried to intentionally limp wrist the gun. I also tried 20 rounds of Corbon Standard JHP's and I will not be carrying this round. I had 3 malfunctions out of 20 rounds, all with the hollowpoint caught on the feed ramp. I also ran 30 rounds of 100 grain Corbon Powerball (saving 10 for carry) with no malfunctions. This is probably the best feeding HP round just due to its fully rounded nose. The XS big dot sights were scary accurate. When I did my job, the Gold Dot was exactly at the point of aim at 7 yards. I should note that I didn't lube the gun but took it immediately from Robar to the range. After I cleaned it and lubed it, the slide seemed to cycle MUCH smoother than when I had picked it up. I have decided to carry a mixture of Gold Dot and PB in my mags because I really couldn't discern much difference in felt recoil between the two and I like the barrier performance of the Gold Dot and the Denim layer performance of the PB. I will take some pics when I get home tonight.

I went to a winchester ballistics workshop, actually been to two now. For glass such as windshields the SXT stuff was superior over many of the others. I'm a devout fan of the Gold Dot which performed very well in the test except during the glass shots. For me it was a non factor nor should it really be for any non LE folks in my opinion. I like to stick to one brand just for consistency and the Gold Dot works for me.

[Swat_dude]

I went to a winchester ballistics workshop, actually been to two now. For glass such as windshields the SXT stuff was superior over many of the others. I'm a devout fan of the Gold Dot which performed very well in the test except during the glass shots. For me it was a non factor nor should it really be for any non LE folks in my opinion. I like to stick to one brand just for consistency and the Gold Dot works for me.

Did they test the SXT and Gold Dots on simulated Clothing?

[Bawanna]

Did they test the SXT and Gold Dots on simulated Clothing?

Yes, I'll have to find my notebook for the specifics but the SXT performed slightly better after going thru glass and then striking clothing. Without the glass factor they were closer in the penetration of clothing with the SXT as I recall having a slight edge. Too me even though I drank the winchester kool aid like everyone else I didn't switch to SXT although I think it's very good stuff and the feed characteristics are perhaps slightly better as opposed to the Gold Dot flying ashtrays. The firearms instructors apparently drank more since we're using it for dept issue. Works great for me, I can never be accused of pilfering dept ammo since I use Gold Dot. Like a Missouri boy could do anything dishonest like that anyhow.

[Bawanna]

I think you can go to Dooley Enterprises and actually see some of the ballistic workshops they put on. Been awhile since I looked but they used to have lots of photo's, video's and ballistic data.

[Mr. S]

I would steer clear of the 147 grain projectiles and stay in the 115 to 125 range. I think I have decided to load the first 4 rounds with 100 grain PB and the last 3 with Gold Dot +P's for better barrier performance. My spare 7 rounder will have the rounds staggered every other one PB and GD.

The whole stay away from 147 grain rounds is very old and outdated advice.
The 147 grain loads lose less velocity when fired from a short barrel handgun than the lighter weight bullets.

I never understood why people would stagger rounds?
How do you know for sure which one you will "need" first?
If your first shot needs to go through a windshield and you have 4 rounds of powerball at the beginning of the magazine you are basically SOL.
The 124+p gold dots are a much better load in every way,and they are much cheaper than the powerball so why not just use them all the time?

[Bawanna]

The whole stay away from 147 grain rounds is very old and outdated advice.
The 147 grain loads lose less velocity when fired from a short barrel handgun than the lighter weight bullets.

I never understood why people would stagger rounds?
How do you know for sure which one you will "need" first?
If your first shot needs to go through a windshield and you have 4 rounds of powerball at the beginning of the magazine you are basically SOL.
The 124+p gold dots are a much better load in every way,and they are much cheaper than the powerball so why not just use them all the time?

Thats what I'd do, stick with all the same. If it was a big issue I might consider penetrator rounds in my spare mag and just switch if time allows which it usually won't. I stick with all the same all the time but whatever gives a man confidence in his defense mechanisms I believe is a good thing, so to each his own. For me the 9mm don't cut it, so to each his own. Don't mean the 9 isn't good for some or even many, just not for me.

[Swat_dude]

The whole stay away from 147 grain rounds is very old and outdated advice.
The 147 grain loads lose less velocity when fired from a short barrel handgun than the lighter weight bullets.

I never understood why people would stagger rounds?
How do you know for sure which one you will "need" first?
If your first shot needs to go through a windshield and you have 4 rounds of powerball at the beginning of the magazine you are basically SOL.
The 124+p gold dots are a much better load in every way,and they are much cheaper than the powerball so why not just use them all the time?

Isn't the whole question of concealed carry "what if"????? What if the end of the Gold Dot clogs up with clothing, doesn't expand, and zips through the perp like the 9mm rounds in the FBI shooting that birthed the .40 cal?? The reality is that during alot of defensive shootings, the entire mag is dumped. I would also question someone who would consider price when deciding on a defensive round to protect their family. As far as the 147 grain 9mm, I would agree the aversion to 147 grain is probably based on old data but the assertion they will lose less velocity in a short barrel misses the big picture. That is like saying most car accidents happen within in 5 miles of your house. Well, yeah, because no matter if you are driving to the next street over or traveling 1500 miles to Florida, you will always be within 5 miles of your house. Yes, the laws of physics and momentum assure that a heavier bullet will give up less velocity, but what you are missing is most of the 147 grain loads are starting with less velocity and less energy than their 115 grain counterparts. Even with the loss in velocity in the short barrel, the hot 115 grain loads as a rule still have more velocity and more energy.

Like Bawanna, for me, 9mm is a tradeoff. I would rather have a 10mm but it just doesn't seem to fit my front pocket as well. My PM9 will be like my LCP, always on me and I mean always. It's like my American Express Card, I don't leave home without it and even at home, it is in my pocket until I climb into bed.

[joshh]

i've been reading alot about ammo and im leaning towards the winchester pdx but i cant decide on weight. most "experts" recommend the 147gr in the shorter barrel guns but what good is it if its harder to get that 2nd round off. that recent story of the veteran on I-95 who was involved in a shootout fired 6 rounds of .357sig from his glock33 at his assailant (carrying a desert eagle) who was dropped but unfortunately survived. this story has been on my mind and i am definitely going to carry that 2nd mag and will probably be adding that crimson trace too. im gonna buy a box of each weight and see what ones i shoot best and thats what i'm goin with. maybe a homemade ballistics test too.

[Swat_dude]

There really is no magic bullet. Shot placement is key although even a badguy with a hole in his aorta could still fight until the oxygen to his brain runs out. Really the only fight stopping shot is a bullet to the brain stem but you have a much better chance of hitting something important by aiming center mass. I posted a picture in another thread of a mountain lion shot with a 240 grain hardcast bullet through the nose that was temporarily knocked out but came back to life long enough to scare the pee out of the guy that shot him and run for a bit before dropping dead. I was also on a SWAT callout where one of our snipers was so close he ditched his .308 and went to an AR with open sights inside of 70 yards. We had a tan hostage phone at the time (that was immediately painted bright orange after the incident) and in low light he couldn't see it was between him and the hostage takers head. The .223 round fragged on the mouthpiece and entered the suspect's mouth but did not reach his brain stem. Luckily for the hostages, the suspect immediately used his handgun to take his own life.

Carry the best ammo money can buy and do your part. The rest is up to God whether you make it home or not.

[jocko]

SWAT DUDE;

Carry the best ammo money can buy and do your part. The rest is up to God whether you make it home or not


that sentence IMO trumps all ..

[Mr. S]

Isn't the whole question of concealed carry "what if"????? What if the end of the Gold Dot clogs up with clothing, doesn't expand, and zips through the perp like the 9mm rounds in the FBI shooting that birthed the .40 cal?? The reality is that during alot of defensive shootings, the entire mag is dumped. I would also question someone who would consider price when deciding on a defensive round to protect their family. As far as the 147 grain 9mm, I would agree the aversion to 147 grain is probably based on old data but the assertion they will lose less velocity in a short barrel misses the big picture. That is like saying most car accidents happen within in 5 miles of your house. Well, yeah, because no matter if you are driving to the next street over or traveling 1500 miles to Florida, you will always be within 5 miles of your house. Yes, the laws of physics and momentum assure that a heavier bullet will give up less velocity, but what you are missing is most of the 147 grain loads are starting with less velocity and less energy than their 115 grain counterparts. Even with the loss in velocity in the short barrel, the hot 115 grain loads as a rule still have more velocity and more energy.


I'm not missing anything. More velocity/energy doesn't guarantee better performance.
Corbon does make one good 115+P load.
Here is the 115+P Corbon DPX (The only 115gr. I would use) that is actually a good performer against a 147 Federal HST that is also a good performer,notice the difference in velocity but how close the actual performance is.

Corbon DPX 9mm vs (http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/9mm_CorbonDPX.htm)




I found this on the powerball

Corbon PowerBall not very good - XDTalk Forums - Your XD/XD(m) Information Source! (http://www.***********/forums/ammo-can/106183-corbon-powerball-not-very-good.html)

[Swat_dude]

I have seen that post about powerball before and I am aware it is a poor barrier performer due to its construction. Bonded bullets will always do better against wood and glass. I actually have my Glock 22 loaded with Powerball in my home because I DON'T want it going through barriers, as in, through drywall into the next room where my precious daughter is sleeping. The one thing that makes me think their post lacks credibility is their comment about higher velocities. I don't think anyone would question the difference between a 147 grain 9mm and a 147 grain .308 round. One is pointed and should rip right through everything but instead it creates a massive shock wave of tissue damaging expansion upon dumping all of its energy. There are some amazing video's of gelatin getting shot with rifle rounds and expanded so far they freakin's jumped right off the platform they were sitting on. It is amazing to me with all our science how much we still don't have figured out on ballistics.

By the way, that was great info on the DPX vs. Federal round. Is there more info there on other handgun rounds? How did you navigate to that page? All I got was a discussion of 5.56 ammo.

Also, I would like to see some actual chrono results from the PM9.

[Swat_dude]

pics as promised... XS Big Dot, polymer mag base plate, and Robar NP3-plus all internals, barrel and mags.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9365/img3575c.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/img3575c.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/7691/img3580e.jpg (http://img715.imageshack.us/i/img3580e.jpg/)
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http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6753/img3582d.jpg (http://img408.imageshack.us/i/img3582d.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8853/img3583v.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/img3583v.jpg/)
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http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/8692/img3576l.jpg (http://img686.imageshack.us/i/img3576l.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[gb6491]

Very nice!
Regards,
Greg

[Kuzzy]

Hey Kahrites

Re PM9 The trigger pull is long but that is not the problem. The INSANELY long trigger reset is the problem. Lets see you hit a fast moving target with that sucker--yea right. Now try a fast moving target with one hand--make that weak hand only--its not going to happen. If your adversary has a Glock your done for. It reminds me of the Sig 250 which has a exceedingly long reset. Now the HK lem trigger has a long trigger but a short reset and the Walther P99 Anti stress has a long pull but has a great reset and the classic Sig line has a long heavy DA pull but a nice reset . . . . thats how it should be done.

Ammo: All the Federal, Winchester, Speer, and Remington Rounds are "good enough." But the best is the federal HST, followed by Speer, federal tactical, then Winchester PDX, Winchester (other) and then Remington GS. The only round really to avoid in the group is the Speer 147. It doesnt expand when tip gets clogged. Some of +P rounds dont increase performance but increase muzzle blast and in fact decrease penetration slightly. In the little Kahr that blast and flash may not be your friend. Hey why not go +p+ in a buffalo bore if you really make want to some noise!

Finally the real test is in the firearm. If its got a good POA/POI, and a good grouping capability at 50ft, and feeds well then that's the MOST important thing--not one more inch of penetration.

[Swat_dude]

Here come the Kuzz. Here come the Kuzz.

I own two Glocks, a 22C and a standard 22 Gen 4 with a 357sig barrel. Yes, the reset is very short. However, that does not stop me from making very fast follow-up shots with the Kahr. As far as practice, I typically only shoot my PM-9 at 21 feet which is in the range of where most defensive encounters occur. This gun is in my right front pocket at all times. It hit 111 in Phoenix today. It is just not viable to carry a Glock concealed in this weather.

However, just because I don't practice at longer yardages doesn't mean the gun isn't capable of shooting farther out. There is a link to a video on this forum where a guy shooting a PM-9 repeatedly hits plates at 80 yards. That is almost five times your 50 feet.

[joshh]

hey kuzzy, why is the federal better than the win. pdx? from all i've read the pdx is the better round which is why it is what the feds are shooting. i've been shooting the federals from walmart at the range and have had good luck so i have actually been thinking of switching to federals but the only defense rounds i can find are the hydra-shok.

[joshh]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u91/4095fanatic/Random/9mmtests2.jpg (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u91/4095fanatic/Random/9mmtests2.jpg)

[Bawanna]

Looks like just about any of them would put a real inconvenience in you day. Those SXT's are nasty. Seen alot of those at Winchester range days thru different mediums and gelatin. Those jacket petals are sharp as a razor too.

[medezyner]

Swat dude, let us know how your range time goes with the new setup. I'm interested in the the Big Dots and asked about them in a recent post. So far they get positive comments. I can see how they'd be ideal in CQ.
Pocket Holster: I use a Galco horsehide pocket (Galco #PH460) CopsPlus has them for $47. Not too thick, horsehide good in hot conditions. It's shaping/curving to my leg nicely, but in the process I'm noticing a bit more resistance in the draw. I'm going to try the Galco Draw-Ez lube. Gets good reviews and should do the trick.

[Swat_dude]

I had Robar install the XS's and I know they test fire for accuracy. Let me tell you it is dead a$$ on at 21 feet. I am shooting about 2 inch groups (I know, I know, it is super close) but this is at a fast, defensive pace. I like smaller dot's on my Glock for longer range work but for this gun, the XS is PERFECT!!

Oh and after seeing that picture, I am going to have to try #11. Those petals are NASTY!!!

[Bawanna]

Very nasty and sharp too. Many wounded fingers handling those at the winchester clinic. The officer here carry the 45 version. I like Gold Dots but looking at the picture kind of jogs my rethinking also. Nasty indeed.

[Swat_dude]

DAMN YOU, Joshh. Just ordered 100 rounds from these guys...

Winchester Ranger SXT (http://www.tds-us.com/catalog.php/tds/dt44310/Ranger_Talon_LEO)

[joshh]

sorry swat. i am going shoting tomorrow with my cousin who hosted a body armor seminar for some local leo's at a range. they were allowed to shoot various rounds and calibers at armor vests and materials so i am intereasted to see the results. he said every officer & trooper there had the win pdx or win ranger in .40 or .45 in their service pistol. i am told the ranger and pdx are virtually identical with a slight edge to the pdx but the rangers are considerably less pricey.