Who's to blame for price gouging?

[b4uqzme]

Econ101 taught me that consumer demand drives price assuming the cost to supply remains constant. So if it doesn't cost any more to produce ammo, who is keeping the extra $$ now that the prices are so high: the manufacturer, distributor, retailer? Well we have a local outfitter that has consistently sold American Eagle 9mm for $18.95 per box of 50 all through the ammo frenzy. That makes me think that all those other retailers selling for $30+ are the gougers. I actually had a guy quote me $85 for a box. I figure he was just out to make enemies. I guess what I'm saying is: please remember those retailers who took care of you and give them your business especially after things return to normal and today's gougers turn into price (and service) slashers.

[rjt123]

Academy hasn't gouged on ammo or AR15s. When they've got 'em in stock, the price has been "normal".

[chrish]

I don't know that I've seen any evidence of manufacturers raising prices yet. Most look like are at the retail and/or distributor level...or individuals selling on gunbroker.

18.95/50 for AE 9mm range fodder is high too.

At the individual level, it's a money making venture. Right, wrong, or indifferent.

At the retail or distributor level, it could be a couple of things at play. One is the same, trying to make some extra $. Second, and more likely IMO, is the knowledge that supply is going to be LOW for the foreseeable future because they know that the demand is going to continue to exceed the supply (most if not all ammo makers are running at 100% capacity) and they want to slow the sale down to keep customers coming back to buy stuff...whether that's the end consumer coming back to a retail location or a retail customer coming back to the same distributor. Either way, at some level a price hike may be necessary.

Econ 101 doesn't always apply in the real world.

Until the ammo fairy drops some new factories out there, or the government stop creating a sense of fear (real or perceived) in the gun owning public that is creating more demand...this will continue and everybody just needs to accept it and set your spending limits and shooting limits accordingly.

[mr surveyor]

with china, india and other "developing" nations buying up all the world supply of copper, brass, aluminum and other semi-precious metals for their modernization needs, the prices of those metals (i.e. ammunition components) have been a tiny fraction of the cost increases we have seen....but nothing at all to do with the profiteering hoarder/gouger side of the equation. For several years my ffl buddies would clue me in to the early announcements of price increases due to cost of materials, which rarely exceeded 15% increase in retail costs.

To paraphrase the late great Pogo: "I have seen the enemy, and he be us"

The major problems are covertly within our ranks.

jmo

surv

[b4uqzme]

I don't know that I've seen any evidence of manufacturers raising prices yet. Most look like are at the retail and/or distributor level...or individuals selling on gunbroker.

18.95/50 for AE 9mm range fodder is high too.

At the individual level, it's a money making venture. Right, wrong, or indifferent.

At the retail or distributor level, it could be a couple of things at play. One is the same, trying to make some extra $. Second, and more likely IMO, is the knowledge that supply is going to be LOW for the foreseeable future because they know that the demand is going to continue to exceed the supply (most if not all ammo makers are running at 100% capacity) and they want to slow the sale down to keep customers coming back to buy stuff...whether that's the end consumer coming back to a retail location or a retail customer coming back to the same distributor. Either way, at some level a price hike may be necessary.

Econ 101 doesn't always apply in the real world.

Until the ammo fairy drops some new factories out there, or the government stop creating a sense of fear (real or perceived) in the gun owning public that is creating more demand...this will continue and everybody just needs to accept it and set your spending limits and shooting limits accordingly.

Sorry chrish your arguments aren't sound.

1 - yes $18.95 is high but obviously much more reasonable than the >$30ers

2 - high demand does not cause the supply to fall. It just seems that way because there isn't any on the shelf. You said it yourself that suppliers are running 100%. The shelves are empty because we are buying it so fast. Retailers have the opportunity to make the same income selling at the old prices if they wanted. Just faster. That's why I have such regard for retailers who choose to keep the price reasonable.

3 - econ101 DOES always work in the real world. Econ doesn't set consumer practice it simply explains it.

4 - my main point is to take care of those who take care of you. They prove themselves in difficult times.

Shoot straight. And thanks for the response.

[chrish]

b4uqzme, you just said the SAME thing I did. same arguments.

I meant econ 101 doesn't work in the real world because the textbook charts and explanations don't always make it clear which variables might be at play. i'm talking about my comment about retailers/distributors adjusting the price and/or quantities allowed to be purchased to control the supply (maybe stock is a better term here) to keep a LARGER quantity of customers happy. You have an entity tinkering with one supply/demand curve to impact another supply/demand curve (other products bought by happy customers). Yes, the supply and demand curve hold true, just sayin' it's not always (academically speaking) clear what's at play. I was answering your question.

sellers (any) have the possibility to make MORE money knowing that the supply isn't going to increase and they can play that to their financial advantage. somebody is going to pay that. whether it's the guy freakin out that he isn't going to find anymore or its the guy that just bought his first gun and has no ammo to shoot. either way, the seller knows somebody might buy it and they can try to sell it higher for some period of time. their gamble. might pay off, might not.

which arguments aren't sound. that's EXACTLY what's going on, regardless of how it fits into the econ 101 lesson. Supply is what it is, 100%. Quantities limits and prices (maybe not both depending on the seller) are being set to make MORE money _OR_ to keep stock at a level to maintain customer satistfaction (that's a fact and its happening, walmart, gander, sportsmans, online dealers, etc).

So, not sure which arguments you think are not sound, other than my poorly worded comment about Econ 101, which I've explained above.

[b4uqzme]

Sorry. Didn't mean to jump on you. I appreciate the clarification.

Thanks again.

[chrish]

No harm. Didn't think you were 'jumping' on me. But economics isn't science or hard math, the models are just that, models. It's a social science and none of it holds true all of the time and nothing in an Econ 101 textbook is going to be of much use when attempting to explain what's going on in the real world. Too many variables at play on too many levels. It's too simplified...i.e. it's a 101 course.

My only point was that the extra $ is most certainly being made in MOST cases at the distributor/retail level or the individual. I don't think manufacturers are raising prices at this point, not at the levels we are seeing.

I'm about at the end of my shooting rope. I'm going to be sitting on my last 1500 rounds of 9mm and my last 1000 rounds of .22lr. Guess I'll get a bow and arrow or a nice .22 air gun. Up until recently, I've been able to maintain range fodder to shoot a couple/three hundred rounds of 9mm per month in 2013 and the same of 22lr. But both have totally dried up in my neck of the woods. Particularly the last 2 weeks. Nothing on the shelves (9mm or 22lr) and nothing coming in on the trucks.

[b4uqzme]

Chrish. Come to Ohio. My lgs will sell you 5 boxes of 40sw and 1 box of 9mm per visit. My range will also sell me a box of 9mm when I shoot. Then I just shoot the k40 and leave the mk9 at home. I'm actually stocking up on both. The only bummer is I haven't shot the CZ75 P01 SDP in awhile.

(still not 100% on your assessment of economics though but I'll let it rest)

Thanks again. Good discourse.

[b4uqzme]

Academy hasn't gouged on ammo or AR15s. When they've got 'em in stock, the price has been "normal".

That's what I'm talking about... Good for Academy and good for you!

[bulletdodger]

This whole reaction to Newtown and other tragedies was a carefully constructed and manufactured scheme to line the pockets of private investors in the hedge funds like Cerberus's Freedom Group. They own Barnes Bullets, Remington, Bushmaster, etc etc, and after the two huge Gov contracts for the Remington M-24 Sniper Rifles, Remington ACR, millions of rounds of ammo recently purchased for domestic use by US agencies on top of the huge civilian run on guns and ammo once word spread of the legislation coming down the pipe. Now I hear Calpers (California state employees pension fund) is heavily invested into Cerberus and is putting pressure on the hedge fund to sell off Freedom Group. Not sure if its sold yet but if it does, a potential buyer is Brazilian Mfg Taurus. Who benefits? Private investors benefit. While we squabble over what little ammo we can get our hands on. As far as price gouging goes, thats to be expected whenever demand exceeds supply. That, I believe has been an integral part of the entire scheme. Perceived shortage always increases demand. And the paranoid hoarders only exacerbate the problem. Everyone who bought into the fear, shares the blame and that includes myself. I'd like to be able to pinpoint the gougers too but that would be a pain in the a$$ to track down. I guess maybe I'm just bitter because I'm not sitting on a stockpile. lol. But it doesn't change the facts.

[Jason4x4]

was just on GanderMtn, they have a $9 surcharge on all ammo orders..

[yqtszhj]

The price is due to the panic buying and the panic buying is due to Obama.

Thanks Mr. President.

[RevRay]

Every sale of anything ever any and everywhere is always due to the combination of a willing buyer and a willing seller agreeing on a price for whatever is being bought or sold. And that price is a function of the supply and the demand. I am partly responsible for the price gouging because I've been willing (in the past) to sometimes pay as much as $19 for a box of 50 rounds. As my personal supply of boxes of ammo is now bigger than it used to be, I have cut back on how much I've been willing to spend. That will happen to most of us eventually, which will then bring the price down. Price gouging does not happen in a vacuum ... someone has to pay the price or the gouging hasn't taken place.

[chrish]

Chrish. Come to Ohio. My lgs will sell you 5 boxes of 40sw and 1 box of 9mm per visit. My range will also sell me a box of 9mm when I shoot. Then I just shoot the k40 and leave the mk9 at home. I'm actually stocking up on both. The only bummer is I haven't shot the CZ75 P01 SDP in awhile.

(still not 100% on your assessment of economics though but I'll let it rest)

Thanks again. Good discourse.

Thanks, will keep that in mind, but not likely to drive to Ohio for a single box of ammo...ha! I don't own a .40 at this point, probably won't. 9mm and 22lr trickles in here, but you gotta be at the right place at the right time.

My father was in Gander the other morning, 12th in line. They ran out of .22 and 9mm before he got to the counter (and that was with buying limits in place). Just the way it goes. Other days he is successful. But I've been shooting it faster than he can find it. I'm just fortunate he's retired and can operate as my personal 'buyer'. I can't make it to these places when they open b/c of my work schedule and needing my beauty rest.

Yea, we'll just leave the econ debate at the door. I'm a math geek so if you can't show me a hard proof, I'm just not gonna get there. I did quite a bit of theoretical econ mathematics, proofs, etc in college as part of my senior research project(s) a couple decades ago. I have little love for economists and the 'science' of economics in general. I find it interesting, but far from provable math/science due to the human nature aspect.

I'll be glad when this all passes, if it does, but I don't think it will any time soon. It seems the gun control crowd is not going to let it rest so easy this time and every opportunity they have to scream about it is going to produce these same scenarios over and over now.

This is the future I'm afraid. High prices, low availability.

[chrish]

You know, the BIGGEST oddity in all this is NOT the $30-$40 box of range fodder. It's the $35-$40 box of SD ammo. Why hasn't that gone up and why are people so hot to find WWB and similar crap when they could just stock up on the expensive stuff for the same $.

SG just put up Critical Duty 50rd 135gr boxes for $38. Go figure. You'd think that'd be $60-$80 a box right now.

[JFootin]

You know, the BIGGEST oddity in all this is NOT the $30-$40 box of range fodder. It's the $35-$40 box of SD ammo. Why hasn't that gone up and why are people so hot to find WWB and similar crap when they could just stock up on the expensive stuff for the same $.

SG just put up Critical Duty 50rd 135gr boxes for $38. Go figure. You'd think that'd be $60-$80 a box right now.

Good point there! :third: In all I have read about ammo prices on 4 different forums, that is the first time I have seen this brilliantly simple idea expressed. Duh! Are we all so slow? Buy SD ammo and use it at the range if range fodder is the same price! Elementary, my dear Watson! ;)

[Pfunk436]

You know, the BIGGEST oddity in all this is NOT the $30-$40 box of range fodder. It's the $35-$40 box of SD ammo. Why hasn't that gone up and why are people so hot to find WWB and similar crap when they could just stock up on the expensive stuff for the same $.

SG just put up Critical Duty 50rd 135gr boxes for $38. Go figure. You'd think that'd be $60-$80 a box right now.

What is SG? Thanks...

[chrish]

What is SG? Thanks...

sorry. SGAMMO.com, but by the time I posted that ammo was gone anyway. They seem to get the critical duty pretty frequently though.

[Glock Holiday]

As long as people are just buying ammunition right when they first spot it in a store because of the gotta buy that right now even though I really wasn't looking for ammo and not based on a routine need for some more ammo this will go on.

[Longitude Zero]

If you pay the gouging price you are just as much a part of the problem as the gouger who charged the price. Stupid is as stupid does. Proper prior preparation would have saved folks from this debacle.

[Glock Holiday]

I agree with that and the buy it cheap and stack it deep policy has served me well through these current crazy times except I never thought I'd need to stockpile .22 long rifle...:(