New P380 Range Report

[majbjd]

Yesterday I bought a new P380 sn RC45XX. I took it home and cleaned the thing as per the fluff & buff sticky. It was dirty and rough inside. Lots of plastic debris on the rails and other assorted gunk. I smoothed every thing with 600 grit sandpaper, hosed out the striker channel, cleaned out the mags and lubed every thing that should be lubed.
Today I ran 100 rounds of PMC ball and 25 rounds of Remington 102gr HP through it. The gun ran very well. It came with one 6 round mag and one 7 round mag. I shot it with 6 & 7 rounds and then chambering a round and topping off the mag to have 7 & 8 rounds in the gun. It worked fine either way.
I had a total of three malfunctions; 2 early lock backs and 1 failure to go into battery. The feed failure and 1 lock back were with the Rem HP's. I feel all the malfunctions were my fault for limp wristing the gun. This gun needs to be held harder than my 45 with hardball. All the malfunctions happened when shooting one handed.
I was disappointed with the accuracy. At 15 yards 13 rounds of the PMC ball gave a gathering of 7 inches. The Remington HP's put 10 rounds in a group of 2.5 inches but the other 3 rounds were flyers at 5,8 and 10 oclock that opened out to 7 inches. As and old NRA bullseye Master class shooter I expect better groups than this. Maybe I am just not use to the gun but I would think it should group better that this. However, this is a close range defensive weapon and maybe this is adequate for its designed purpose. My two K9's will shoot 2-3 inch groups at 15 yards with just about any ammo I run through them.

[jpshaw]

Your P380 will always be harder to shoot then your K9's. Lighter shorter sight radius but it should settle in some with shooting plus you will get used to it more. Man and machine tend to make a better pair with time.

[jocko]

BIG difference in a K9 and a P380. Perrsonally ol Master class shooter, I would say ur groups with the P380 at 15 yards was very good. My thouhts are tha tur ol NRA days of Master bullseye shooting was never done with a gun as smllas the P380 either.

U naile dit to. It is a close range weapon, IMO 15 yards is a stretch, I wouldbet at 7 yards and under ur groups will be touching each utter. Just sayin

[RRP]

I was disappointed with the accuracy. At 15 yards 13 rounds of the PMC ball gave a gathering of 7 inches.

You realize, don't you, that many people can't shoot 7-inch groups at 15 yards with a full size pistol?

Don't get discouraged. This was your first outing with the tiny sub-compact and it shoots a lot differently than a target pistol. It takes a while to get used to the long and heavy DA trigger. I recommend using the power-crease of your finger, to minimize movement on the trigger pull.

I'm willing to bet your groups will tighten-up after you put a few more boxes downrange. Have fun with it. Good luck.

[Cole125]

It takes practice to get decent accuracy with a P380 or any small pistol for that matter. After 1000 plus rounds through my P380 I am able to keep 3-4 inch groups at 10 yards which is good enough for me.

Funny thing is, after shooting the P380 when I pick up a full size pistol I shoot MUCH better with it than I normally do. Even a G26 feels like a giant gun and very easy to shoot after shooting a tiny gun. Anyone notice this?

[majbjd]

Thank you for your replies.
Yesterday when I cleaned the gun I gave the barrel a good scrub with a brush and dried it out. I did not examine it closely. Tonight I gave it a good look and it looked like a barrel that had been shot with lead bullets. I scrubbed it with a wire brush and it still looked bad. Used a Lewis lead remover, still bad. Scrubbed it with JB bore cleaner, still bad. Broke out the chamber/bore magnifier and the bloody bore is pitted. I mean there are many pits I can catch with the tip of a dental tool. They all run in the intersection of the lands and grooves.
Has anyone found a new gun with a bad bore? This thing looks like a gun that was shot with corrosive ammo and not cleaned properly.
I have not even had a chance to mail in the warranty card.

[wyntrout]

It could be that the nickel plating is bad and coming off. I don't know if it affects accuracy, but other guns have had this problem. If you can get some pictures and email Jay at Kahr Customer Service, maybe they would help you. include your serial number. I've never mailed in any registration cards on guns, especially Kahrs, but I'm not saying not to... just that it's not necessary for service.

jay.dandrea@kahr.com

Jay D'Andrea, Kahr Customer Service 508-795- 3919.

I was stationed at Dyess from early 1974 to early 1983 as a B52 Radar Navigator and was active in the local Amateur Radio Club.

Wynn:)

[boones]

It just got my new P380 back from khar service. I found mine to be very dirty inside also from the factory. I've got to question Khar's QA processes to be shipping new guns that are that dirty and roughed up inside.

Your first range trip went a lot better than mine. I had many malfunctions. My thread is on this board, titled "p380, rough first day". I'm hopeful that my P380 is fixed now, but haven't had a chance to take it back to the range yet. On my new pistol, khar deburred the slide, replaced the barrel and reworked the ejector. It also came back cleaned and properly lubed. All of the hanging plastic bits they just cut off and smoothed.

The return experience was pretty easy. They sent a pre-paid label and I needed to find a box to ship it in. I dropped it off at a FedEx center and in 2 weeks the gun was delivered back to my house, signature required.

Good luck with your P380.

[majbjd]

Wynn, thanks for the contact info. I was the C-130 wing maintenance control officer from July 83 to Aug. 86 when I retired.
If I read you right the bore on this gun is nickle plated. If so it may well be that the plating is failing and giving the appearance of pitting.

[majbjd]

I just talked to Kahr and they are sending a return shipping label. So much for the so called match grade barrel in this gun. Failure after 125 rounds sure does not sound like a match grade barrel to me.

[JohnTz]

I really wonder what is going on with these guns. Mine is a RD serial number and is perfect. It has no plating failures and when delivered it looked like it was well fired and dirty but all I did was clean/lube and it functioned perfectly since then. 500 rounds no issues. Others are having huge problems. is it just a quality control problem? are they spending more time on some guns and not on others? It is a shame that this is happenings as these guns are very sweet when operating properly. Any theories on why such a huge variance?

[jocko]

probalby over 40,000 of these P380 on the market as of now, so indicated by the serial sequence, so IMO we tend to read of issues of kahrs on a kahr forum and issues of glocks on a glock forum, so u can call it what u want, Percentages of issues are extremely low, for most all gun makers, IMO. If one has an issue, kahr will make it right, what else can we as forum members say. we don't make um, we shoot um, most swear by them, some swear at them. It is what it is. these little guns of all brands seem far more finicky than the big framed guns. Not making excuses either, for it is what it is. Enjoy ur RD P380 kahr, for when they work as designed there is just none better.

[boones]

Definitely forums are where you will hear the horror stories. For the guy that gets a bad one, the defect rate is 100%. A few bad guns can really affect a manufacturer's entire reputation. Mine P380 is an RD also and it arrived full of metal and grit new from the factory and had several serious malfunctions and unusual wear after the first 200 rounds. I can't see how arriving dirty with metal filings inside isn't indicative of poor QA.

All manufacturers make duds. How they deal with those determines their commitment to the customer. Personally, with all the malfunctions I had with my new P380, I think Kahr should have just swapped out the gun with a new one, especially for such a low cost item. Its not a car or a house. There are not that many parts and none of it is cutting edge technology. I can accept them fixing it, but it feels like I'm working for them in quality control and spending my money on ammo to find out if they did their jobs correctly. I'm sure the guys who are repairing these guns back at the kahr factory are making as much noise as they can to the QA department.

[jocko]

swapping out a gun would require a total new reregistration and that means it owuld hav eto go through an ffl dealer, and I doubt if Kahr will pay an6y of that reregistration fee. Most gun makers do not swap out guns. It is there last resort at best, but just not sumpin that they do that maybe we think they should do. I do feel kahrs should come to an owner clean er than some that we see. Most are OK, some even say drippingin oil, some say dry, so it is what it is. That is why this forum who has a vast time of experience with kahrs always recommends a thourogh cleaning of their kahrs before tha first range trip. U might say, " why should I have to clean up a new gun" Well u don't but we have seen alot of crapola come out of some kahrs striker channel, so why not error on the side of caution and pay attention to what some of the members do recommend, for they have been there done that to. It beats the hell out of griping and bitcvhing on this forum to us members who can't help u a bit other than offer u a cup of coffee if they run into u
No defending kahr here or knocking an owner with issues, but it is what it is. and this forum is full of alot of extremely helpful sticky's that 90% of the time will make that first shoot a fun and reliable shoot, so why not take a half hour and go throuogh ur new weapon correctly paying good attention to some of the tips offered here by members.

Sometimes it is as simple a fix as finding a mag spring in backwards--sure beats the hell out of sending it back..

[RRP]

probalby over 40,000 of these P380 on the market as of now, so indicated by the serial sequence, so IMO we tend to read of issues of kahrs on a kahr forum and issues of glocks on a glock forum, so u can call it what u want, Percentages of issues are extremely low, for most all gun makers, IMO. If one has an issue, kahr will make it right, what else can we as forum members say. we don't make um, we shoot um, most swear by them, some swear at them. It is what it is. these little guns of all brands seem far more finicky than the big framed guns. Not making excuses either, for it is what it is. Enjoy ur RD P380 kahr, for when they work as designed there is just none better.

Did someone hijack Jocko's computer?

[JohnTz]

I agree with the fact that the numbers are skewed since many people don't go out of there way to report positive results. I was one of the the folks that had no problems. I did follow the clean/lube thread and had no problems and I simply love this little gun. It runs like a rolex and it just keeps shooting. Accurate as hell for such a little pistol as well.

What I wonder about is why such variance at all, even though it is very small. These are very simple devices with very few moving parts and most of it is either molded or cnc machined. Both processes are extremely repeatable and reliable. There really shouldn't be even a small number of unreliable pistols out of the box. Wether we accept it or not, these new non functioning pistols are hurting the brand and I think that is a shame since they are simply great guns. In fact I am looking to buy a PM9 now as well.

[boones]

U might say, " why should I have to clean up a new gun" Well u don't but we have seen alot of crapola come out of some kahrs striker channel, so why not error on the side of caution and pay attention to what some of the members do recommend, for they have been there done that to. It beats the hell out of griping and bitcvhing on this forum to us members who can't help u a bit other than offer u a cup of coffee if they run into u

For the OP of this thread, and myself, both cleaned the gun thoroughly before first use. An owner can be reasonably expected to read and follow the owner's manual. An owner can not be reasonably expected to find and search forums for a list of best practices prior to using any consumer product. The people who find and use these forums are doing much more than an average consumer to assure their enjoyment of their gun. I have appreciated the advice I've found here.

[Tinman507]

Did someone hijack Jocko's computer?

No he just had his nails done so he's using his feet til they dry.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSlMONlLP0V8qfqvi6c7nz8lwehJ0abE EirfTmgCNQCUfxIS5pynQ

[jwilliman]

When I first took mine to the range I was a bit disappointed but after a few trips, I'm able to keep all my shots in the barcode on the target. Maybe just a hair bigger. I'm shooting two handed though at about 20 feet. Loving this gun but it doesn't seem to like federal defense ammo. The slide lock back prematurely.

[JohnTz]

The slide lock back prematurely seems to be a common thing. My buddy has one that did that quit a bit and mine has not. We took the little slide lock spring out and opened it up a little and that fixed the problem. I think sometimes if your not carefull putting it back in the tab catches that spring and bends it a little and the tension is reduced and that results in the premature lock.

[dsk]

Perhaps I can add my experience. I just recently bought a new P380, #RC6xxx, and the first thing I did was take it apart and clean/oil it real well. There was some slight metal slag on the slide rail that chewed into the frame slightly, but I stoned it and cleaned up the frame. I went to the range with 200 rounds of FMJ and started trying to break it in. It was nearly flawless for the first 100 rounds, with just one failure to fully go into battery (solved by pushing on the slide with my thumb). But during the next 50 rounds I had several issues. The FTRTB issue got worse, and the trigger didn't fully reset a couple of times. But then the final 50 rounds was flawless again. When I took it home to clean it I saw it was absolutely filthy inside. I cleaned it out really well, but when reassembling it noticed the slide didn't seem to close with a lot of oomph. Suspecting the recoil springs I ordered a new set from Midway, and sure enough the fresh set was about 1/2" longer, meaning the originals really collapsed just in that 200-round break-in period. I currently have the fresh set installed in the pistol but I haven't had a chance to go back to the range yet as everybody is out of .380 ammo. When I do I'll report back again.

[JFootin]

dsk, the used spring being shorter than the new one is perfectly normal. They take a set with rounds being fired. Normally, they don't need replacement at 200 rounds; more like 1000 - 1500.

BTW, welcome to the forum! :) Here is some further info from Wyntrout that may be useful.

Welcome to the forum, dsk. Here's some more links and info, in case you don't have enough!

Welcome to the Kahrtalk forum supported by K a h r Arms.
Here are a few essential links and things to do BEFORE you take your new pistol to the range, and ESPECIALLY BEFORE taking it apart and trying to re-assemble it! The Kahr is a different design… 6-7 unique patents cover the Kahrs. I’m not trying to imply that you don’t know anything about guns, but many don’t know anything about the Kahrs and some of the things you can do to damage or cause malfunctions of your new, or new-to-you Kahr pistol.

First, if you don’t have a manual, yet, or one didn’t come with your pistol, you can view it and/or download the pdf file here:
http://www.kahr.com/PDF/kahrmanual.pdf

Please watch one of these videos FIRST! These videos can point out possible problem areas and emphasize correct procedures!
Take down and re-assembly videos:
T, TP, CW, P, & PM/CM Series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=G2cZgVg_SwA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=G2cZgVg_SwA)
MK series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...mSCnIOaUk#t=0s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zXmSCnIOaUk#t=0s)
K series:
http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-K9-Elite.asp
There are many links on fixing problems listed in several places… under the New Member or Kahr Tech sub-forums.

A very handy one is the Kahr Lubrication Diagram:
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=14750
Many of your questions can be answered in these areas and you can learn how your Kahr works and not damage it with improper handling.

Another great resource for information on Kahrs... Archives of Magazine and Internet Reviews for Kahr pistols by industry experts. They test these pistols and report on their views and the ammo they tested in it. This is a good way to find ammo that might fit your needs along with accuracy and feeding in the pistol... usually from a rest with velocity and energy, as well as penetration and expansion sometimes... very informational.

http://www.kahr.com/product-reviews.asp

Frequently asked questions: http://www.kahr.com/faq.asp?

One very important bit of advice: Hold the Kahr pistol firmly when firing OR CHAMBERING a round. These compact pistols need all of the force they can get from the slide to get a round into the chamber successfully. If you don't hold the pistol firmly, part of the needed momentum is transferred to MOVING THE PISTOL and the top round will DIVE and jam into the right side of the feed ramp. The weak hand, over hand rack method gives the best grip and a firm rack will give you the best chance at chambering a round.

Use the weak hand fingers over the slide(clear of the ejection port), thumb along the slide and pointing to the rear. Use the gun hand to simultaneously firmly push the gun as you give a vigorous rack with the weak hand and cleanly release the slide as it reaches the rear limit and is "snatched" from the weak hand. This approximates a real rack from firing and beats the slide release method WHEN executed properly. Much more strength can be exerted when this is done closer to the body.

Here's a video on that. The first part is what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=hjLbFOw8sow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hjLbFOw8sow)

There are many helpful members here most of the time who might be able to help you, but as anywhere, there are many opinions and not all are correct. Be mindful of this before doing anything drastic to modify your pistol!


Wynn:)
Aka wyntrout

PS: I keep thinking of stuff to add and help new members... and am trying to cover most of the popular subjects. Yes, it's repetitious to many, but possibly not to all new members. This approach is easier than having to look up every tidbit for each new member or question that arises. :)

[boones]

The slide lock back prematurely seems to be a common thing. My buddy has one that did that quit a bit and mine has not. We took the little slide lock spring out and opened it up a little and that fixed the problem. I think sometimes if your not carefull putting it back in the tab catches that spring and bends it a little and the tension is reduced and that results in the premature lock.

I sent my P380 back and reported that problem. Kahr deburred the notch on the slide. Haven't fired it since the repair to see if that issue is resolved. If not, it's going back again.

[dsk]

Thanks for the links JFootin, but I've been a Kahr owner previously (owned one of the first P9 pistols for several years) and I've seen Wyntrout's info before.

BTW I forgot to mention that during my test shooting I intentionally girlie-wristed it several times, with no issues. I once even held it as loose as I dared without letting go of it, and it still fired a full mag. What I mostly noticed is that these little pistols need to be kept squeaky-clean and well-oiled. My problems didn't start cropping up until the action was pretty badly fouled.

I might also mention that a round can be chambered only about 3-4 times before the bullet gets pushed back in the case far enough to be a safety concern. Definitely don't re-chamber your carry ammo more than once.

[majbjd]

I sent my P380 back to Kahr on April 29. The Fed Ex guy just brought it back with a new barrel installed. Talk about fast service, 10 days turn around including shipping time-WOW.
Tomorrow I will take it to the range and test the new barrel and get the night sights I ordered installed. I will post the results.

[jocko]

give it a good test workout before doin any night site stuff. Get the gun doin what it should do and then do ur custom stuff. There is simply no better 380 than the P380 WHEN IT DOES WHATIT SHOUL.D DO..

[HaveGunWillTravel]

I purchased a P380 in December and had consistent failure to return to full battery, lock open with bullets still in magazine and the gun not locking open when empty. I shot over 800 rounds in 5 or 6 shooting sessions. Returned the gun to Kahr in March with new ejector and springs installed. After 2 more range sessions, I had the same issues. I got my LGS where I purchased the gun involved. Waiting to hear back from them to what Kahr says. My PM 9 has never had any issues. I am having concerns that Kahr is not up to par on the P380 they are now producing

[majbjd]

The gun came back dirty so I took it down to clean it. While I had it apart I took the opportunity to address a couple of problems I had during the first test session. I had one early lock back and the mag release had to be pushed all the way into the frame to release the mag and then it still would not let the mag drop free.
I put a mag with one round of PMC hardball in with the bullet tip next to the lock tip and tried to slide a .002" feeler gauge between it and the tip of the slide lock. It would not fit. I tried some Remington GS JHP and same no fit. I cut .005" off the lock tip that contacts the mag follower. Now a .005" fits between the lock and a bullet tip. The mag catch would grab a follower as I slid it up through an empty mag body in the gun. I took .010 off the catch and now there is no hang up and a normal push on the mag release button lets the mag drop free.
Still plan to try it all out at the range tomorrow.

[majbjd]

Hit the range today. The night sights have not arrived yet.
100 rounds of PMC ball ammo and ZERO malfunctions. The gun ran like a swiss watch. The mags are dropping free and the slide lock works great. I never sling shot the slide, just hit the slide lock to chamber the first round in a mag. There are two observations.
I always check the point of aim vs point of impact on any carry gun at 3,7 & 15 yards. The old barrel shot to point of aim. The new barrel shoots low, 2.5" low at 15 yards.
PMC ammo sucks as far as accuracy. 3yd 1.25" groups, 7 yd groups 2.2" average for 6 groups, 1" low and at 15 yards a 14 shot gathering was 8.4" wide and 4.5" high and 2.5" low of POA. Just to see if it was me, the gun or the ammo I shot a 10 shot group with Remington GS JHP and it was 2" wide & 2.25" high. It was also 2.5" low of POA.
I have 250 rounds of Winchester Ranger SXT on the way. I will report accuracy when it arrives.