Limpwristing is for real!

[b4uqzme]

Nobody likes to hear that the problem with their gun might actually be with the shooter/themselves. I certainly understand why someone would get defensive if it's even implied. However that is exactly what happened to me today. I decided to break loose with some precious 9mm and took the MK9 to the range. Well mid session I experienced 2 FTF (slide locked open). Tried another mag and same thing. Was there something wrong with my trusty companion? Thinking about it I realized that I probably let my grip get a bit lazy. So I tried the same 2 magazines with the same ammo -- only this time I focused on my grip. The gun ran fine and continued without a flaw for the rest of the session. So,I guess my point (and advice for what it's worth) is, when you experience a failure, check your shooting fundementals first before you start digging into possible problems with your firearm. Just hope this thread saves someone some grief down the road. Thanks for listening.

[wyntrout]

It can vary from pistol to pistol, too. My PM45 was what I call all-aspect... will shoot no matter how you hold it. It was like that when I got it, but after a trip or two to Kahr for various problems, it started "acting" like I was limp wristing. It really sucked because I was using a two-handed grip and doing all of the things to give the pistol a firm, stable platform... but the gun would act like I was limp wristing. I think that it would have failed with a Ransom Pistol Rest! After about the fourth trip back... got a new frame... it was its sweet old all-aspect self again. I had to shoot left-handed without support and still using my right eye to get it to malfunction. I consider this important as I might be firing one-handed while diving for cover and may not have the best grip. I want my little buddy to do his part under any conditions. I can hold Boomer... or Franken-Boomer.. really loose... I mean really loose and shoot without any problems. Sometimes it IS the pistol. That's why we practice so we know what we have to do or what to expect.

Wynn:)

[TucsonMTB]

Yep! And, in my experience the ammo you are using can make the gun more or less sensitive to how it is gripped.

With 135 grain Winchester Ranger JHP, I defy you get either of my PM40's to malfunction.

Step up to a heavier or hotter round and you had better hang on tight or it will be FTF city. Very embarrassing.

So . . . Yeah, I do carry a heavy, hot round in the pipe and for the first round in the magazine because they always work no matter what. After that, it's the trouble free, 135 grain Winchester Ranger JHP every time, baby. :D

Life is good!

[TheTman]

I had a terrible time with my CW40 breaking it in. Jams of every type imaginable. FTFs. It was all limpwristing. The CW40 was my first polymer framed pistol, but not my first semi auto, the other semi's were steel or metal alloy. My 1911's are almost impossible to limp wrist, as are revovlers. After I struggled to get the 200 rounds downrange, I went out to pay for my range time, and got into a discussion with the man at the counter. He asked if that was my first polymer frame gun, and it was, and he told me "Don't be offended, but you are probably limp wristing it." I'd never heard of limp wristing, so he explained that poly frame guns flex more than metal frame pistols, and you need to grip it so the slide cycles completely to the rear, and when limp wristing, I wasn't letting the slide cycle all the way. So the next range visit, I changed my grip somewhat, so that the gun cycled properly, and had no jams or problems, except a couple times when I slipped into my old grip. The difference was amazing, just a slight change in my hold on the gun, and the CW40 turned out great.
It's funny, I can't get my old Springfield 1911 to limp wrist trying too. The worst that will happen is I have to nudge the slide closed. It's probably designed that way, for battlefield performance. Now I've made it a point when shooting any semi, metal or poly, to use my anti-limp wrist hold on it, so it becoming muscle memory and not something I have to think about. I shot revolvers a quite a bit more than semi's, so the limp wristing was never an issue, nor is it with my Buckmark .22.
I do wish they'd call it something else though, sounds like something that guys that wear pink panties might do. "Hey there sailor boy, how about a little limp wristing?" uggggggg

[Barth]

Forums are full of folks posting that their guns are unreliable.
More often than not it's user error.
Limp wristing, riding the slide release, tripping the mag release...

Usually the very first question is -
Did you let an experienced shooter try the gun?

Bad mags and ammo sensitivity are common issues as well.
But inexperienced folks thinking shooting a handgun is some variation of a video game?
That's far and away the most common.

Oh, I forgot the most common complaint of all.
My guns is terribly inaccurate.
And always shoots low and to the left - LMFAO!

[Popeye]

No question limp wristing or to loose a grip is a very real problem for some folks. Especially with a new pistol. Trying to get them to realize it's them and not the gun can also be a challenge. :D As most of us know on KT from shooting the smaller pistols the smaller the pistol the more susceptible they can be to the limp wristing from a loose grip also. I believe that's why they recommend shooting 200 rounds through them before you carry them as there is a slight learning curve to shooting a small pistol correctly.
Larger pistols like a 1911 or a CZ75B are almost impossible to limp wrist. So is a Glock 26. Having said that I still have not been able to limp wrist my PM9. I have tried to on purpose as if my hand was injured just to see what I could get away with. If I held is any looser the gun would fly out of my hand when I pulled the trigger. In all fairness the PM9 does have a few thousand rounds through it though.
Whenever I read that a new Kahr or other small pistol is not cycling the way it should, I think it's the user and not the pistol that is the problem.
(Example) I had a guy next to me at the range about 7/ 8 months months ago who was having a problem with a smaller pistol cycling properly. He called that pistol every name in the book. We all would have know exact why it was not cycling properly by watching this guy. It did not take a member from Seal team 6 to figure what was going on here.
He saw me looking at him and proceeded to tell me what a POS he bought. I did not want to come off as a know it all old Fokker, but I did mention that he maybe should top off another mag,grip the pistol a little tighter and not let it recoil as much. Sure enough the gun miraculously fixed itself. Who'da thought. :rolleyes:

[jocko]

why is it though when one is playing around at the range and actually wants to limp a gun, that it just doesnt happen?? I have tried it many times on all my kahrs and I just cannot limp the gun. Is it maybe because u know ur trying to limp it so your grip even though loose as a goose still is doing the right thing??/Just sayin.

I have mentionedthis before but many years ago I knew a kel tek service tech and he told me that 50% of all their returned guns ,that nuttin was wrong at all and that it was shooter error, but he also stated that, now how are u gonna tell a person that without pissin him off. It made sense. He stated that most of the times they would return the gun and the memo would say adjusted action, test fired, gun is OK. Just sayin

[muggsy]

I had a terrible time with my CW40 breaking it in. Jams of every type imaginable. FTFs. It was all limpwristing. The CW40 was my first polymer framed pistol, but not my first semi auto, the other semi's were steel or metal alloy. My 1911's are almost impossible to limp wrist, as are revovlers. After I struggled to get the 200 rounds downrange, I went out to pay for my range time, and got into a discussion with the man at the counter. He asked if that was my first polymer frame gun, and it was, and he told me "Don't be offended, but you are probably limp wristing it." I'd never heard of limp wristing, so he explained that poly frame guns flex more than metal frame pistols, and you need to grip it so the slide cycles completely to the rear, and when limp wristing, I wasn't letting the slide cycle all the way. So the next range visit, I changed my grip somewhat, so that the gun cycled properly, and had no jams or problems, except a couple times when I slipped into my old grip. The difference was amazing, just a slight change in my hold on the gun, and the CW40 turned out great.
It's funny, I can't get my old Springfield 1911 to limp wrist trying too. The worst that will happen is I have to nudge the slide closed. It's probably designed that way, for battlefield performance. Now I've made it a point when shooting any semi, metal or poly, to use my anti-limp wrist hold on it, so it becoming muscle memory and not something I have to think about. I shot revolvers a quite a bit more than semi's, so the limp wristing was never an issue, nor is it with my Buckmark .22.
I do wish they'd call it something else though, sounds like something that guys that wear pink panties might do. "Hey there sailor boy, how about a little limp wristing?" uggggggg

Lets watch those references to sailors. The limp wrist set refers to sailors as sea food. Just sayin.

[b4uqzme]

+1 on all the above. Just a reference to all our welcome new Kahr owners and forum members. Just sayin'

Thanks

[JimC]

Limpwristing is for real!

Yes it is.

Those of you who have put in time on the line with an LE recruit class using semi-autos, especially for the first time, know well how limpwristing can cause initial headaches for the recruits and the instructors. ;)

[Sleeve17]

I noticed with a very firm grip my CM9 has no issues. Sanding the leading edge of the follower made it more forgiving. I think a lot of the 2nd-3rd round "feed issue" is grip related.

[bob98366]

For the benefit of some of us newbies to poly frame subcompacts, how specifically are you gripping to avoid limpwristing? Pictures welcomed.

After 750 rounds through both our CW40s I still get the occasional failure to feed. Mostly happens late in the range session when my dominate hand gets fatigued. However, just gripping tighter doesn't always fix the problem. One of four magazines (7 round Kahr) is typically the worst, so I'm continuing to sand its feed lips and follower.

Thanks.

[Bawanna]

A malfunction can quite often be a combination of a couple minor issues that put together create a major issue.

In your case maybe that mag is faulty, weak spring, whatever, it works ok till you get a little tired and then it acts up.

For grip just think rock solid, don't just roll with it. When I'm helping new shooters especially woman I find it helps to get them a little mad dog mean and therefore a bit more aggressive.

It's also kind of a you have to adopt what works for you kind of thing.

[Sleeve17]

Bawanna, I push/pull a little on my CM9. Is that a bad habit? It seems to help me concentrate on my grip strength.

[b4uqzme]

For the benefit of some of us newbies to poly frame subcompacts, how specifically are you gripping to avoid limpwristing? Pictures welcomed.

After 750 rounds through both our CW40s I still get the occasional failure to feed. Mostly happens late in the range session when my dominate hand gets fatigued. However, just gripping tighter doesn't always fix the problem. One of four magazines (7 round Kahr) is typically the worst, so I'm continuing to sand its feed lips and follower.

Thanks.

Just youtube "thumbs forward" grip videos. That has not only helped me with gun reliability but accuracy too.

[TheTman]

I had one of those Diamondback DB9's for awhile, and I could not get through a whole mag without a problem, I had others shoot it, with no problems at all. A range master even watched me shoot, and we tried a number of things, and I couldn't get it to work. I think my hands were just too small for that gun, so I sold it, told the buyer my problems, and told him to let me know if it didn't work out for him. He had large hands, and I never did hear back from him. I had a neighbor interested in it, but he was about my size, and same small hands, and he couldn't get it to function either. I think on that particular pistol, you probably have to have big enough hands to completely encase the grip, or it will flex too much to load. I got about what I paid for it, so was no big deal. My M&P Pro, doesn't seem to be affected by grip much at all, I think it's built to not flex so much as the smaller pistols can. Probably built more like a Glock. My CW40 isn't near as bad either as it was new, but I'm still careful with how I hold it.

Oh, my apologies to any sailors I offended.

[JFootin]

You may be onto something, TheTman. I am a normal sized man, 5'9" and pushing 200 lb. But for some reason, I inherited very small diameter bones and tiny wrists, hands and feet. No one else that I know of in the family has such bird bones, so ??? (I also have an inherited and progressive paralysis that has already substantially weakened and crippled my hands, wrists and legs. So I am doubly challenged.) But I have watched men with big bones and hands shoot guns that would show considerable recoil in my hands, yet the gun hardly moved in their hands.

I do just fine with my CM9 and J-frame, but I am still learning how to provide a firm enough platform for my TCP and I still get some ftfs with range ammo. I have found that the conical shaped Hornady CD bullets feed 100% successfully, so I am comfortable carrying it. But I need to put lots more rounds thru it and get to where there are no failures with any ammo I feed it. And, like lots of folks, I find the felt recoil of my larger, heavier Walther PPQ to be surprising and unpleasant, though it cycles rounds perfectly. The cycle time of the PPQ seems to be really fast, creating lots of backward and forward momentum in the slide. But there are other guys (probably with beefy hands, wrists and arms) who scoff at talk of excessive recoil in the PPQ or any 9 mm, and say that porting one won't produce much benefit because there isn't that much recoil to begin with.

I used to play golf when I was young. Had a hard time controlling my shots because of club head deflection. I wished that I had Popeye forearms like Jack Nicklaus so I could keep it steady. But, WTH, we play with the hand that is dealt us.

[Bawanna]

Bawanna, I push/pull a little on my CM9. Is that a bad habit? It seems to help me concentrate on my grip strength.

Not at all a bad habit. I do it too. Helps fight the shakes on heavy coffee days. I use the thumbs forward mentioned here too.

Just shoot like you mean it, if you start getting soft visualize Feinstein or Rosie O'Donnell at the target and things usually straighten right out.

With women I tell em if they don't kill the target their kids are gonna get abused.
Anything to kind of half way tick em off.

They usually are natural good shots but often time need help on just getting a solid grip. They don't have the stigma of having to shoot well or they aren't a man like we do. If they shoot lousy they can just say I'm only a girl.

Tried it myself once and people kind of drifted away from me?????

[getsome]

Take a look at your shooting stace....I had an instructor once tell me I would never be a good shot unless I learned to shoot square up to the target, knees bent, elbows bent and the pistol straight out in front with an isosceles hold....

I shot ok like that but to me a normal stance is to get my feet in a fighting position like they teach in karate...I feel more natural and comfortable in a Weaver stance where my right (shootiing hand) and arm are straight and my left support arm is bent and both hands have a good solid grip on the pistol...

What this does is line up the pistol, your hand and your forearm in a solid straight line which is very hard to limp wrist from and I find myself automatically going to this position no matter what hand gun I am shooting...

[TheTman]

I'm not a fan of the Isosoclese stance, why present a full frontal target to the BG?. Modified Weaver all the way for me.

[b4uqzme]

I actually vary my stance but attempt to maintain the same grip regardless. Seems to be better practice for a real situation. But good point about minimizing your frontal target to the BG.

[TheTman]

JFootin, I could get the DB9 to function some, buy covering as much of the grip as I could with my hands, and applying a sideways squeeze to the grip, instead of the push-pull grip I normally use. Using an isoscolese stance, I formed an flattened A from my elbows to my hands, and used the pressure from my arms, through my hands to really put a squeeze on the grip. But my small hands just didn't work very well. I had an elsiepee for awhile, that didn't require anything special to shoot, just a firm grip to let the slide cycle. I'm not saying the TCP is not a good gun, but perhaps an elsiepee might work out better. or possibly a CW380. Something that didn't flex so much. I also had a little Beretta Tomcat, in .32, with a metal frame, that was quite reliable, plus had the tip up barrel to load the first round, so you didn't have to rack the slide. I sold that intending to buy a .380, since they were coming out in about the same size, but a Dan Wesson Revolver got in the way. I have a thing for Dan Wesson revolvers, what can I say. I wanted 4" model, for IDPA, And one appeared at the right time. (wrong time?) Anyway, I still am lacking an elsipee sized gun, maybe their is a CW380 in my future. With all the problems on KT about P380 problems, I'm a bit leery of the .380's. Although there seems to have been MUCH fewer problems reported lately.

[mr.ed]

Nobody likes to hear that the problem with their gun might actually be with the shooter/themselves. I certainly understand why someone would get defensive if it's even implied. However that is exactly what happened to me today. I decided to break loose with some precious 9mm and took the MK9 to the range. Well mid session I experienced 2 FTF (slide locked open). Tried another mag and same thing. Was there something wrong with my trusty companion? Thinking about it I realized that I probably let my grip get a bit lazy. So I tried the same 2 magazines with the same ammo -- only this time I focused on my grip. The gun ran fine and continued without a flaw for the rest of the session. So,I guess my point (and advice for what it's worth) is, when you experience a failure, check your shooting fundementals first before you start digging into possible problems with your firearm. Just hope this thread saves someone some grief down the road. Thanks for listening.

Great Info! Thanks

[SlowBurn]

For the benefit of some of us newbies to poly frame subcompacts, how specifically are you gripping to avoid limpwristing? Pictures welcomed.

After 750 rounds through both our CW40s I still get the occasional failure to feed. Mostly happens late in the range session when my dominate hand gets fatigued. However, just gripping tighter doesn't always fix the problem. One of four magazines (7 round Kahr) is typically the worst, so I'm continuing to sand its feed lips and follower.

Thanks.

A wise shooter once told me its like the shanks in golf. Everything is going along fine, then it starts happening. Often goes away by itself.

One exercise to help "train your brain" to lock your wrist. No gun involved. Take your shooting hand and grip the fingers of your other hand with it. Lock your shooting hand so the wrist doesn't bend at all, without crushing the fingers.

[WMD]

Hello......

My name is WMD and...., I have a limp wrist!

It all started whilst shooting a PM40. I got through the 1st 100 rounds OK, but in that second hundred...., apparently, my hand got tired and...., my wrist went limp. I am so thankful for this opportunity to admit this "unmanly" flaw to my fellow shooters and am hopeful that the "12 shot program" will help me recover. I am also thankful that my membership card to the guy club has not been taken away. I do understand that recovery is a long and difficult process, but I am committed to succeed in this initiative. I thank you all for your support.

:rolleyes: