Another LE Unnesessary Tragedy

[MD_Vet]

Obviously an accident...but this **** has got to stop! Maybe some serious jail time will get the LE community at large to start remembering what they're there for. Totally inexcusable.


http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/05/28/police-shoot-kill-grandfather-while-responding-to-burglary-call/

[knkali]

the mindset of LEOs must change as more civilians become armed. It will be hard to do.

[Bawanna]

Will be tough. People have been conditioned for so long to not get involved, call police, let them handle it.

People like this man (an myself) who don't call 911 and just deal with it are becoming more and more the exception.

I won't begin even analyze this scenario since we don't have a clue what really happened. No idea what the man did that scared the officers, their experience level, imagine since there was more than one, at least one had been around awhile.

I've always felt that dispatch was the weak link. Too easy for a dispatcher to escalate or deescalate a situation and officers already running in blind can be negatively effected by that.

[knkali]

Alarm went off at midnight at my office. Alarm company called me and asked if I wanted to cancell a call to the police. I told them I wanted the police to respond. I got dressed and drove to my office but I still arrived before LEO. I had to admit that I was a bit worried that if the LEO rolls up and see me walking around inside my office with my shotie that things could get bad in a hurry. SO I made my wife clear my office instead...................

[downtownv]

Alarm went off at midnight at my office. Alarm company called me and asked if I wanted to cancell a call to the police. I told them I wanted the police to respond. I got dressed and drove to my office but I still arrived before LEO. I had to admit that I was a bit worried that if the LEO rolls up and see me walking around inside my office with my shotie that things could get bad in a hurry. SO I made my wife clear my office instead...................


That's Crazy funny!:p

[downtownv]

Obviously an accident...but this **** has got to stop! Maybe some serious jail time will get the LE community at large to start remembering what they're there for. Totally inexcusable.


http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/05/28/police-shoot-kill-grandfather-while-responding-to-burglary-call/

This man wasn't wondering on the premise that police were called for, he was on his own property and i assume NOT pointing his gun at the officers.
This is 2nd agree murder, in my eyes. What shoot first, ask questions later?

[Bawanna]

This man wasn't wondering on the premise that police were called for, he was on his own property and i assume NOT pointing his gun at the officers.
This is 2nd agree murder, in my eyes. What shoot first, ask questions later?

Assumed NOT pointing his gun at officers based on what? Bad guy could easily leave the reported address and be on the neighbors property.......

Man may have thought the cops were the bad guys, dark, probably came in quiet and blacked out, they really prefer to catch the bad guys, not just scare em off with sirens etc.

Burglars are frequently caught even blocks away from the reported address.

Not making excuses for the cops, maybe they genuinely screwed up, it happens. BUT maybe the old guy screwed up too, that happens too.

The sad thing about LE is it's the one occupation where you can do everything right and still get fired or even imprisoned for doing your job. It's the way it has to be but still seems unfair sometimes.

Make no mistake I feel horrible for that old man trying to do the right thing and be a good neighbor but something went wrong and we don't have enough information to figure out what it was.

[MD_Vet]

More Info....

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/05/28/widow-fort-worth-police-officers-were-trigger-happy/

[muggsy]

The retiree went looking for trouble and found it. It wasn't his job to arm himself and investigate. It was his job to call 911 and let the police handle the situation. One thing is for sure, he'll never make that mistake again.

[Bawanna]

That's not more information, that's a media report from a grieving widow.

[jimsea]

LEO's have got to get with the program that there are more solid citizens with firearms then there are BGs with firearms. Just like the two broads delivering newspapers who got shot up while LEOs were looking for the rogue COP recently, LEO's need knock this crap off about shooting when the only threat is the possibility of a **** stain in their underwear.

This happened in Texas for crying out loud.

This shooting was inexcusable no matter how it gets spun. These LEO's feel bad and rightfully so.

[pappy42]

This situation is tough for all concerned. I will have to have much more information before offering an opinion.

[getsome]

Me too, Cops are damned if they do and damned if they don't....If they shoot too fast sometimes bad things happen but if they don't shoot fast enough they don't get to go home at all.....We don't know what really happened here except the wrong person got shot but if I were a Police Officer going on a burglary in progress call in the dark the LAST thing I want to see is anyone standing aroung with a gun in their hand PERIOD....

Moral of his story is don't be that guy with the gun in hand when the Cops drive up....Might cause premature ventilation!!!!

[jimsea]

Moral of his story is don't be that guy with the gun in hand when the Cops drive up....Might cause premature ventilation!!!!

If an LEO is so fearful that the mere sight of a firearm causes him to empty his mag then he should quit. It's a dangerous job which assumes a level of risk. It is not a risk to be mitigated carelessly by over-reacting. They need to accept the risk and exercise due caution........To Protect and Serve.

If the number one thing on their mind is to go home at the end of the day rather than consider putting oneself in harms way to protect and serve, that individual might want to consider another line of work. Harsh comments I know, but it's tough job that requires tough and courageous people to do it.

[dkmatthews]

The retiree went looking for trouble and found it. It wasn't his job to arm himself and investigate. It was his job to call 911 and let the police handle the situation. One thing is for sure, he'll never make that mistake again.

This is pure conjecture on your part! How the &&&& do YOU know that he went looking for trouble? Unless you have a God-given gift to know what he was thinking, keep that kind of crap to yourself. Good people who take up arms in self-defense and defense of others don't deserve that kind of garbage-spewing from tree-hugging, gun-banning liberals OR from you.

[Bawanna]

The retiree went looking for trouble and found it. It wasn't his job to arm himself and investigate. It was his job to call 911 and let the police handle the situation. One thing is for sure, he'll never make that mistake again.

This is a prime example of my earlier post. Your neighbors house is on fire, the neighbor lady is drowning in the bath tub. Don't kick the door in, call 911, dial in the news and watch it as it happens on TV.
The media will undoubtedly be there first so you shouldn't miss anything.

We live in an area some distance from a fire dept. We use to have neighborhood meetings which thankfully ended since more than one person in a meeting ends up in catastrophe.

I inquired of the fire chief who was at the meeting if we could set up a little shed someplace in the neighborhood to store like fire protection clothing (bunker gear). Just basic stuff, thinking if someone was stuck in a house we might have a better chance to get them out while waiting for the big red truck. None of us were concerned about property damage and most hoped that if there was a fire it would be a total loss so we could get a new house.
He was totally opposed to the idea since we weren't trained and would be risking additional lives.
I put it to him that if someone, man woman or child, maybe even a dog was trapped in a burning building, I was going in if at all remotely possible that I might succeed. He could help my chances or not but I was going in.

Never did fly and now of course my running into burning buildings or otherwise days are long over so don't really matter anymore I guess.

[kpm9]

This is pure conjecture on your part! How the &&&& do YOU know that he went looking for trouble? Unless you have a God-given gift to know what he was thinking, keep that kind of crap to yourself. Good people who take up arms in self-defense and defense of others don't deserve that kind of garbage-spewing from tree-hugging, gun-banning liberals OR from you.

+1 - looking for trouble on his own property?? Wow, just wow. How ignorant.
If you believe this than you should immediately disarm yourself and stick your head in the sand.

[Bawanna]

Easy DK, easy son. Take your meds. Don't get personal or overwrought.

I'm semi with ya but stay focused. We're all armchair quarterbacks passing in plays to the offense.

[dkmatthews]

Aye, aye - Colonel.

[JohnR]

Officers "felt threatened." That really means nothing; anyone can say that after the fact. I cannot imagine an old fellow pointing a gun at cops (how else do you make someone "feel threatened"?), unless he was looking for suicide-by-cop. The burglar alarm turned out to be false, heck maybe he set it off just for that purpose.

[Glock23]

That's not more information, that's a media report from a grieving widow.

Actually, it added that both officers arrived in marked patrol cars, in full uniform, and that both had been with the PD for less than a year.

And just an afterthought, but the first article said they were both sobbing uncontrollably and very distraught... to me, that says "oh sh!t, I accidentally shot a concerned old man" not "I'm sad because I had to use my weapon when I felt threatened." Seems to fit more with the shoot first, ask questions later scenario.

[Bawanna]

Hmm, missed the less than a year thing twice, caught it on the third read. I'll have to work on my reading comprehension skills again I guess.

[dkmatthews]

Hmm, missed the less than a year thing twice, caught it on the third read. I'll have to work on my reading comprehension skills again I guess.

Reading skills or not, you are still the colonel. ;-)

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

[muggsy]

LEO's have got to get with the program that there are more solid citizens with firearms then there are BGs with firearms. Just like the two broads delivering newspapers who got shot up while LEOs were looking for the rogue COP recently, LEO's need knock this crap off about shooting when the only threat is the possibility of a **** stain in their underwear.

This happened in Texas for crying out loud.

This shooting was inexcusable no matter how it gets spun. These LEO's feel bad and rightfully so.

You have to realize that the primary objective of a police officer is to clock out at the end of his shift and not be carried out. If you can tell by looking at someone if they are a good guy with a gun or a bad guy with a gun them maybe you should be a cop. I don't know about you, but I'd feel bad about having to take anyone's life. If you don't want to be shot by a cop then stay out of the cops way and let him do his job.

[muggsy]

This is pure conjecture on your part! How the &&&& do YOU know that he went looking for trouble? Unless you have a God-given gift to know what he was thinking, keep that kind of crap to yourself. Good people who take up arms in self-defense and defense of others don't deserve that kind of garbage-spewing from tree-hugging, gun-banning liberals OR from you.

I know that he went looking for trouble, because he grabbed a gun and tried to do a police officers job. It's the job of a police officer to look for trouble. It's a shame that he was killed, but if he had stayed out of harms way he'd still be alive. He didn't think and it cost him his life. Maybe what I'm saying will make you think and save your life. No ones property is worth your life. Don't be a dead hero.

[JFootin]

I know that he went looking for trouble, because he grabbed a gun and tried to do a police officers job. It's the job of a police officer to look for trouble. It's a shame that he was killed, but if he had stayed out of harms way he'd still be alive. He didn't think and it cost him his life. Maybe what I'm saying will make you think and save your life. No ones property is worth your life. Don't be a dead hero.

Muggsy, this was a noise in his garage, on his own property. We still don't know why the police were messing around his garage when the burglar alarm was at the house across the street. Are you saying that, if your home is invaded, YOU are going to cower in your bedroom and hope the police show up to save the day in 15 seconds rather than 15 minutes? Are you not going to investigate a suspicious noise at night in your own home? Don't you believe in our right to keep and bear arms, especially on our own property?

[muggsy]

Muggsy, this was a noise in his garage, on his own property. We still don't know why the police were messing around his garage when the burglar alarm was at the house across the street. Are you saying that, if your home is invaded, YOU are going to cower in your bedroom and hope the police show up to save the day in 15 seconds rather than 15 minutes? Are you not going to investigate a suspicious noise at night in your own home? Don't you believe in our right to keep and bear arms, especially on our own property?

J., if someone breaks into my home I'm going to barricade myself my in my room and use my cell phone to call the police. I'm going to tell the police where I'm located in the house and that I'm armed. I'm going to take a position behind cover and wait for the perp to come to me. If he breaches my door he is going to die, or I'm going to die trying to kill him. I don't want the SOB to know where I'm located by moving around in the house in the dark and I don't want the police mistaking me for the perp. I have a dog that serves as an early warning system to remove the element of surprise. I didn't live to the age of 67 by being stupid.

[knkali]

Muggs,

Just to make this work for me and to see where you stand completely. If a next door neighbor's husband was gone for the week and he stopped by before leaving and said please keep an eye on my wife, she will be alone and there have been some reports of prowlers around here lately---- Then, two days later in the middle of the night, you hear her screaming for help and "he's trying to kill me", what would you do? I know the what ifs are a terrible way to extract where you stand on matters but it would help me understand you. PMs are good should you choose. Or if you dont want to go there, sorry for the question.

[downtownv]

J., if someone breaks into my home I'm going to barricade myself my in my room and use my cell phone to call the police. I'm going to tell the police where I'm located in the house and that I'm armed. I'm going to take a position behind cover and wait for the perp to come to me. If he breaches my door he is going to die, or I'm going to die trying to kill him. I don't want the SOB to know where I'm located by moving around in the house in the dark and I don't want the police mistaking me for the perp. I have a dog that serves as an early warning system to remove the element of surprise. I didn't live to the age of 67 by being stupid.

Muggsy +1
Every gun course I have ever taken (Sig Academy Exeter NH) the first thing taught is EXACTLY that. Secure family ie safe room/area, password for family, call 911- leave the phone line open- a recording in court is the best defense , a verbal waring to leave the premises, police enroute (All being recorded) and gun trained on the fatal funnel (The doorway) from behind a bed , dresser etc.
In many states walking around "Looking for someone" is considered "Hunting" You are the aggressor nor longer the defendant. Prepare to spend a lot of money time and be part of the legal system.....
Let the cops do the hunting, they get paid to take that risk!

[muggsy]

Muggsy +1
Every gun course I have ever taken (Sig Academy Exeter NH) the first thing taught is EXACTLY that. Secure family ie safe room/area, password for family, call 911- leave the phone line open- a recording in court is the best defense , a verbal waring to leave the premises, police enroute (All being recorded) and gun trained on the fatal funnel (The doorway) from behind a bed , dresser etc.
In many states walking around "Looking for someone" is considered "Hunting" You are the aggressor nor longer the defendant. Prepare to spend a lot of money time and be part of the legal system.....
Let the cops do the hunting, they get paid to take that risk!

Thanks for your support. I'm not about to get shot and leave my family defenseless. The training that I received in the military and through the NRA helped me to develop my plan of action. A lot of people pick up a gun, shoot at stationary targets that don't shoot back and think that they are Rambo. Real life isn't the movies and I don't have a death wish.

[muggsy]

Muggs,

Just to make this work for me and to see where you stand completely. If a next door neighbor's husband was gone for the week and he stopped by before leaving and said please keep an eye on my wife, she will be alone and there have been some reports of prowlers around here lately---- Then, two days later in the middle of the night, you hear her screaming for help and "he's trying to kill me", what would you do? I know the what ifs are a terrible way to extract where you stand on matters but it would help me understand you. PMs are good should you choose. Or if you dont want to go there, sorry for the question.

If my neighbor made that request I wouldn't consider him a very good neighbor. I'd tell him that I'm not the police and that if he was concerned about leaving his wife home alone that he should take measures to protect her. Buy a dog, install an alarm system, buy her a gun and teach her to shoot, or take her with him. Of course, if he wanted to pay me a substantial sum to be her body guard we might be able to work something out and she could stay with me for a few days. I can be accommodating. My first obligation is to my own family.

[knkali]

If my neighbor made that request I wouldn't consider him a very good neighbor. I'd tell him that I'm not the police and that if he was concerned about leaving his wife home alone that he should take measures to protect her. Buy a dog, install an alarm system, buy her a gun and teach her to shoot, or take her with him. Of course, if he wanted to pay me a substantial sum to be her body guard we might be able to work something out and she could stay with me for a few days. I can be accommodating. My first obligation is to my own family.

one can say for sure that you are consistent

[jimsea]

The training that I received in the military and through the NRA helped me to develop my plan of action.

If you have ever undertaken a mission in the military that had any degree complexity or planning you would know that NOTHING ever goes as planned.

FWIW unless you are all sleeping in the same room, it would be highly unlikely you could wake in the middle of the night and muster your family into a centralized location without a confrontation with the guy who busted down your front door or came in through a window and woke you up in the first place.

You need to resign yourself to the fact that the police are there to fill out the report after the fact rather than to ensure your safety during the actual incident.

And yes, I do agree that calling the police should be one of two initial immediate responses by someone other than the man of the house who should be busy protecting and securing the other occupants. The other thing to do even before calling the police is to hit the panic button on your vehicle key fob that should on be on your nightstand next to your bed. After doing those two things nothing will go as planned.........it's a crap shoot. And if you get shot it doesn't mean you quit defending your family. You watch too many movies if you think a single shot is going to shut you down.

I can guarantee one thing to any intruder who thinks he wants to enter my castle uninvited........he will find no sheep here, it will be mayhem.

Just sayin.

[muggsy]

If you have ever undertaken a mission in the military that had any degree complexity or planning you would know that NOTHING ever goes as planned.

FWIW unless you are all sleeping in the same room, it would be highly unlikely you could wake in the middle of the night and muster your family into a centralized location without a confrontation with the guy who busted down your front door or came in through a window and woke you up in the first place.

You need to resign yourself to the fact that the police are there to fill out the report after the fact rather than to ensure your safety during the actual incident.

And yes, I do agree that calling the police should be one of two initial immediate responses by someone other than the man of the house who should be busy protecting and securing the other occupants. The other thing to do even before calling the police is to hit the panic button on your vehicle key fob that should on be on your nightstand next to your bed. After doing those two things nothing will go as planned.........it's a crap shoot. And if you get shot it doesn't mean you quit defending your family. You watch too many movies if you think a single shot is going to shut you down.

I can guarantee one thing to any intruder who thinks he wants to enter my castle uninvited........he will find no sheep here, it will be mayhem.

Just sayin.

You do it your way and I'll do it mine. In my house it's just me and the wife. She has been well trained and can defend herself. If you want to go looking for trouble then God help you. My wife and I will stay barricaded in our safe room with our guns trained on the door. You have my permission to be a hero.

[MD_Vet]

Another followup story..FWIW

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/05/29/rookie-police-officer-shot-fort-worth-homeowner-six-times/

[muggsy]

My spider senses are tingling. I smell a wrongful death suit and a settlement paid for by the tax payers. All because an old man stuck his nose in where it didn't belong. May he rest in peace.

[Bawanna]

A wonderful thing for lawyers since this is what they do. And no blood, no mess, no guilt. Kind of the same thing as shooting someone but with no gun.

My spidy senses see this thread coming to a close soon pending more information or a solid outcome.

I'm leaving it for now but I don't predict a happy outcome here.

[josp]

Watching....reading....and have investigated too many of these to know the whole story hasn't been printed yet

[b4uqzme]

FWIW differences of opinion are not always bad. This thread has me thinking more carefully about my HD plans AND about being prepared for things not going to plan. My takeaway from this thread is that any decision to use deadly force should be in response to an immediate threat to my life and/or the lives of my loved ones. There are an infinite number of possibilities so even the best plan just scratches the surface. But if we can train ourselves to act quickly and decisively...we may be able to respond effectively to anything.

[getsome]

I think this has been a good learning thread for anyone who carries a gun... There were two very good points brought out that I never thought of before, one is to have a pass word between everyone living in the house that is supposed to be there in the middle of the night, something thats easy to remember under stress to be sure that noise you heard downstairs is family or friend and not an intruder....Say Micky answer back Mouse or something like that is a really good idea rather than turning on a light to see who it is....

The second thing someone mentioned that is a great idea and most everyone has one even though they might not have a burglar alarm with an outside siren is to keep your cars battery key fob thing handy so you can hit the button and start he cars horn blowing which might be just enough to run off kids or someone trying to break in a window or door from outside and might evenrun off someone already in the house.....

One last question I have always wondered and thought about is God forbid I was involved in a shooting say in a dark parking lot and after it's over I'm still standing and the bad guy is down and I'm scared and shook up which would be normal and I hear sirens coming close as someone else has called the Police and I'm standing there with my gun in my hand, what do I do with the gun?, holster it, throw it in the car, put it on the car hood, or what because the last thing I want to happen is the cops drive up and see me with a gun in my hand standing over a bleeding, hopefully dead body on the ground, bad Ju Ju could happen....Just curious, what is the right thing to do with your weapon????

[jimsea]

I think this has been a good learning thread for anyone who carries a gun...

....Just curious, what is the right thing to do with your weapon????

If you are absolutely sure there are no other threats, you should reload with a fresh mag if you have one, and then holster the weapon.

FWIW I invite anyone to fire off a couple rounds inside their home without hearing protection (lets say into a phonebook or two), and tell me what you can hear afterwards other than severe ringing in your ears. I say this as a precaution because it will likely hinder any plan that relies on verbal communication.