PM9 doesn't shoot straight

[wtim]

Hello!

New to the forum. Like the title says I have a PM9 that I bought right after Christmas that doesn't shoot straight. I have over 400 rounds through it and after the break-in period it's fired every time. Unfortunately I can't ever hit the target in the same spot with any regularity. I thought I was an awful shot with this little gun so I bought a Crimson Trace laser sight to help. No good. Even my friends and my son can't shoot this gun accurately so I think I can say it's not me. I love it for it's concealability but I'd like to be a little more accurate with it. Do you think it's something about the gun itself or are we all holding it incorrectly?

Any ideas?

[sas PM9]

Hello!

New to the forum. Like the title says I have a PM9 that I bought right after Christmas that doesn't shoot straight. I have over 400 rounds through it and after the break-in period it's fired every time. Unfortunately I can't ever hit the target in the same spot with any regularity. I thought I was an awful shot with this little gun so I bought a Crimson Trace laser sight to help. No good. Even my friends and my son can't shoot this gun accurately so I think I can say it's not me. I love it for it's concealability but I'd like to be a little more accurate with it. Do you think it's something about the gun itself or are we all holding it incorrectly?

Any ideas?

wtim:

Define "the same spot every time".

At what distance are you shooting?

What experience do you have pistol shooting?

Are you getting the same "bad" results shooting from a "rest"?

The long trigger pull takes some getting used to, you have to "unlearn" the technique used for many other pistols.

Are you grouping shots low and left?

-steve



BTW, Welcome to the forum, sorry you are having difficulties.

[Kidrod]

Hello, while I am also new to this site I have been shooting for many years. In my humble opinion I believe the problem is not the gun. The PM9 is about as accurate as your gonna find for such a small package. How far away is your target, how large is your target? I am much more accurate with my 1911 and even better with my .357 Ruger 6 inch barrel than I am with my PM9. There are many folks more qualified here than I that might be more helpful.

[jocko]

:Amflag2:


Hello!

New to the forum. Like the title says I have a PM9 that I bought right after Christmas that doesn't shoot straight. I have over 400 rounds through it and after the break-in period it's fired every time. Unfortunately I can't ever hit the target in the same spot with any regularity. I thought I was an awful shot with this little gun so I bought a Crimson Trace laser sight to help. No good. Even my friends and my son can't shoot this gun accurately so I think I can say it's not me. I love it for it's concealability but I'd like to be a little more accurate with it. Do you think it's something about the gun itself or are we all holding it incorrectly?

Any ideas?

if u do this, u will prove to urself it is u or it is the gun. buy a half dozen snap caps. throw them in with 30 rounds of ammo. let someone other thanu load the magzines foryou and let them at their choosing decide if they want 1 or 2 or more snap caps in the magazine. Now shoot it at 7 yards and see the results. My bet is ur anticiapting the "bang" thing and the snap caps will show this. I have no idea either what your accuracy is also. I can tell you I have my PMJ9 with over 32K rounds through it and at 7 yards I am damn lucky to have 3" groups--dam lucky. It is wha tit is, and I am what I am. ... I am not a great shot, but it is not the gun, it is me. As much as I think I am not jerking that damn trigger when I hit one of those snap caps, I damn near break the fokking trigger in anticipation of the BANG thing.

I would be very surprised to see that it is a gun issue, but no doubt anything can happen.. U can't give a friend or ur son a lahr and expect them to shoot it in the same hole. No gun that I know of has the looooong trigger pull of a kahr. It certainly takes some time and rounds to get used to that trigger. Some never do, I know I have not mastered it. that being said I accept my accuracy with this gun . It is plenty good enough to defend myself, but again if I had to hit a beer can at 25 yards, I would be in deep sh!t. but that is not my worry. If ur expecting same hole accuracy, u need to study this forum more and u will see hundreds of targets by owners at 7 yards and under and nadda same hole stuff, basically 3 to 5" groups even is the norm.:banplease: I hesitate to say it is you definitely, but I surely hate to say it is the gun to. If ur right handed and ur groups are mostly left and low, that is shooter error. I would be very surprised to hear ur shooting high alot. U might be shooting to far back to. U got the best gun kahr makes,but get beyond 10 yards and then ur shooting skills have to kick in with a kahr. IMO it is a defense gun, not a true target pistol, U have a small ass frame gun, extrely light in weight, short sight radius, none of these things are positives for 2" or so groups IMO--UNLESS ur one hell of a shooter

[wtim]

Target is seven yards away, usual silhouette: about 16 inches wide by 24 inches high. I'm shooting everywhere within the torso bullseye. I would say my "grouping" is around 16 inches. It's still within injury range (Of the target/bad guy) but it's nothing like my Glock.
I did have issues with low and to the left until I started using the pad of my index finger to pull the trigger rather than the first joint which I was prone to do as the gun is so small.
I've been shooting off and on since 1980. More "on" since the kids got older so semi regularly since 2005. Shooting from a rest tends to improve my aim slightly but not by much. Even using the laser I still end up hitting far from where I had the laser pointed i.e the center bullseye. ;)
I'm not sure what to say about the long trigger pull...after the first couple hundred rounds I didn't really notice it.

[sas PM9]

Target is seven yards away, usual silhouette: about 16 inches wide by 24 inches high. I'm shooting everywhere within the torso bullseye. I would say my "grouping" is around 16 inches. It's still within injury range (Of the target/bad guy) but it's nothing like my Glock.
I did have issues with low and to the left until I started using the pad of my index finger to pull the trigger rather than the first joint which I was prone to do as the gun is so small.
I've been shooting off and on since 1980. More "on" since the kids got older so semi regularly since 2005. Shooting from a rest tends to improve my aim slightly but not by much. Even using the laser I still end up hitting far from where I had the laser pointed i.e the center bullseye. ;)
I'm not sure what to say about the long trigger pull...after the first couple hundred rounds I didn't really notice it.


wtim:

Well, I don't know what else to suggest except to continue to practice slow and deliberate aimed shots. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Sight in the CT laser over a sandbag or some-such rest to get it zeroed in, then practice, practice, practice; familiarity breeds confidence.

I generally expend no more than 50-100 shots per session; more than that I'm just wasting resources, I'm not getting any better.

Almost all of us with a PM/CM series have a difficult time getting our accuracy up to where we would like it to be; small framed short barreled handguns are notoriously difficult to master. Short sighting radii and two fingered grips are problematic; old eyes (in my case) don't help either.

Keep on keeping on.

-steve

[wtim]

I find (oddly enough) that I'm more accurate with it one handed than the text book two handed stance and I added a Pearce magazine extension which does wonders for the feel of the gun in hand.

[deadeye]

When I fist got my CM9 I couldn't even hit the target let alone the bulls eye. Because of the ammo shortage I bought a Gamo P25 co2 pistol. I can shoot it and practice in my garage cheaply. Son of a gun! Long story short. The CM9 is very accurate. I wasn't.

[sas PM9]

I find (oddly enough) that I'm more accurate with it one handed than the text book two handed stance and I added a Pierce magazine extension which does wonders for the feel of the gun in hand.


wtim:

I also have the Pierce extensions on two of my mags for the extra grip. I go without at times of deep concealment, but otherwise use them.

Your one handed statement leads me to believe that your two handed grip needs improvement. Logically two hands should be more stable.

With the CTL you will see every heartbeat and twitch in your hands project onto the target. Concentrate on keeping the dancing red dot as still as possible while pulling the trigger s l o w l y. Keep it at 7-10 yards until you are grouping better, then move it out a little at a time. Improvement will come with practice.

-steve

[wtim]

Thanks Steve I'll try that. Isn't going beyond 10 yards pushing it with a three inch barrel?

[sas PM9]

Thanks Steve I'll try that. Isn't going beyond 10 yards pushing it with a three inch barrel?


wtim:

Not if you can continue to improve and gain confidence.

Look at this video to be enlightened to the capabilities of this weapon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Av9COfLB_Y

-steve

[deadeye]

I did cheat a little. I bought a laser bore sighter and found my sights were right on at 7 yds. I had the same problem with the P25 at first. Missing the complete target.
I have a friend who is a retired U.S. Marshall. He told me how to position my body, my hands and use the trigger. After 1000 practice shots with the P25, was putting 16 pellets in a 4" radius. Took the CM9 to the range and the difference was remarkable. Practice.

[sas PM9]

wtim:

This is actually the video I was looking for.

Hickok mentions that the gong across the way is at 80 yards.

Pretty capable for a 3" barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ipPZT8qCiM

look at the 5 minute mark.

-steve

[LorenzoB]

I don't remember who it was here, but they got a barrel without any rifling. Also I recall someone else had the crown of the barrel off center. So there is a SMALL chance it could possibly be the gun.

I am accurate with my CW9, but I am still trying to get used to my PM9. At 10 yards, I have no prob with 10" groups, but my CW9 is much tighter than that. I believe my problem is the combination of the shorter sight radius and the pinky hanging below the grip. And the long trigger pull too.

I found that when I used the pad of my trigger finger, I actually introduced side movement. The grip is so small that my hand had some muscle tension just trying to hold my finger pad on the trigger. Dry fire (with a laser) and watch for smear wild experimenting with your grip and trigger finger placement. I believe that it is more important to have a relaxed trigger hand than to have the pad of your finger on the trigger. Some well known shooting experts have also said that it is acceptable or even better to put the trigger at or near your first knuckle on double action guns. Look it up. My point is that there is no "one way" it must be done. experiment and find what is best and most comfortable for you and your hands (everyone is different). Anyway, it definitely works for me with my CW9 and hopefully soon for my PM9.

[yqtszhj]

Thanks Steve I'll try that. Isn't going beyond 10 yards pushing it with a three inch barrel?

Yes to the 10 yards statement.

I think you answered your own question with the one hand statement. The long trigger takes some getting used to. BUT when used to it you'll shoot it relatively well.

really focusing at 5-7 yards I'm at 2-4 inch groups when i concentrate really hard. I'm better with the Pierce extension installed.

[b4uqzme]

I don't remember who it was here, but they got a barrel without any rifling. Also I recall someone else had the crown of the barrel off center. So there is a SMALL chance it could possibly be the gun.

I am accurate with my CW9, but I am still trying to get used to my PM9. At 10 yards, I have no prob with 10" groups, but my CW9 is much tighter than that. I believe my problem is the combination of the shorter sight radius and the pinky hanging below the grip. And the long trigger pull too.

I found that when I used the pad of my trigger finger, I actually introduced side movement. The grip is so small that my hand had some muscle tension just trying to hold my finger pad on the trigger. Dry fire (with a laser) and watch for smear wild experimenting with your grip and trigger finger placement. I believe that it is more important to have a relaxed trigger hand than to have the pad of your finger on the trigger. Some well known shooting experts have also said that it is acceptable or even better to put the trigger at or near your first knuckle on double action guns. Look it up. My point is that there is no "one way" it must be done. experiment and find what is best and most comfortable for you and your hands (everyone is different). Anyway, it definitely works for me with my CW9 and hopefully soon for my PM9.

I received some training from a revolver expert. He strongly encouraged me to use the first finger joint vs. the finger pad just like you would for a da revolver. It has made a tremendous difference/improvement. Makes sense. I've heard many describe the Kahr trigger "like a long, smooth revolver pull".

[muggsy]

When I'm on I'll keep all of my shots within a 3" circle at 21' with my CM9. Find someone with Kahr experience to shoot the gun for you, or shoot it from a machine rest. You'll know in a heartbeat if it's you or the gun. My money's on you. Kahr makes one of the most accurate compact concealed carry pistols available.

[KKing]

wtim:

Not if you can continue to improve and gain confidence.

Look at this video to be enlightened to the capabilities of this weapon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Av9COfLB_Y

-steve

Call me crazy, but he never shoots the PM9 at the gong, only the Ruger. I have no doubt he could do it though since I've seen him make 200 yard shots with one of his Glocks

wtim, my money would be on your problem being your capability. I learned I was no good past 7 yards with my Kahr but yet I could pick my glock 19 up and be in a 6" group at 20 yards. The Kahr platform takes a lot of getting used to in my opinion

[jocko]

quote I don't remember who it was here, but they got a barrel without any rifling. Also I recall someone else had the crown of the barrel off center. So there is a SMALL chance it could possibly be the gun.
:

both would be visible to the naked eye if this was thge case

[Bawanna]

You might recall in a previous life the MK9 that we recovered from the bottom of Puget Sound after 45 days or so. I cleaned it up real good and sent it to Kahr who replace all the springs and looked it all over, put it in a new factory box with 2 new mags and returned it. (No Charge)

Nobody could hit anything with it at all. I looked it over carefully and didn't see anything wrong.
I really scrutinized the barrel and it looked fine.

I finely gave up and called Kahr and asked to purchase a barrel. I can't remember the name of the lady but may here knew her. She told me I didn't need to buy a barrel as they were warrantied for life. I even told her about the salt water and she still sent me one.

Before this I took it out and I could not hit a paper plate at 3 yards. Honest. I held way right and finally winged it on the left edge. I though ah hah, I got it, held in the same spot and couldn't hit it again. I held way left and winged it on the right, just nothing consistent.

With the new barrel it's a tack driver, incredibly accurate.

I think the edges of the polygonal rifling corroded enough that it was just not grabbing the bullet or putting a good spin or something.

I guess if it was me I'd go with the flow and see if you improve but if not contact kahr and send it back. Maybe there's something just a tad off on that barrel.

[wtim]

Thanks for all the good advice! I really appreciate it. The issue with where to place my index finger was actually the opposite of what a few of you are saying. When I shot the gun with the joint of my index finger I was hitting low and to the left consistently. After an internet search I discovered the recommendation of using the pad of my finger instead was an improvement.

Now that I look back I was shooting ok groupings when using the first joint of my finger just off target...

OK. I need to practice squared. It's me not the gun. :P

[CJB]

I have competed well in the bullseye circles with .45 Govt model and Ruger Mark I - both highly reworked. Not to brag, but I was doing in the 270 range (of 300) with about 10 X's. Thats not real top shooting, but not bad either - considering the X ring is 1-5/8 inches and you're shooting one hand, standing, at 25 yards with iron sights.

All that flew out the window with Kahr. I had the major letdown too. I had to relearn things, develop new methods and muscle memory. Shooting a Kahr after bullseye is ... not easy. I'm still not great with my Kahr's but I can shoot them quickly, and with adequate defensive accuracy at defensive distances on defensive sized targets. I can hit an 18x30 inch rectangle at 7 yards, close to its center, very easily. Still have fliers, still have flinches. I'm still workin' on it.

Keep the faith... you're not alone.

Hint - don't try to shoot the gun like its got a heavy single action trigger. Shoot it like a double action revolver. When you stop trying to be perfect but just try placing the bullet holes close to where you want them to be....you'll start to do better.

[wtim]

The other thing I just remembered now that you mention treating it like a revolver is that the same time my son tried the Kahr he had also rented a S&W .357 mag with a 4 inch barrel. We could shoot that accurately enough albeit only using .38 special ammo as that's all the range had. And I was shooting that in DAO 'cause I wanted to try without cocking the hammer. That had a nice trigger pull!

[Chuck54]

For what it's worth I find that when I shoot my Kahr pistols I shoot better using the first joint and use a smooth continuous stroke until it fires. I have tried using a very slow stroke to shoot smaller groups and that does not work for me.

[muggsy]

Here's another method you might try.

http://www.youtube.com/user/flicksguns#p/u/11/zKdXmcdB5WE

[wtim]

Good video.... I'll have to watch my index finger....

[sharpenit]

Hello!

New to the forum. Like the title says I have a PM9 that I bought right after Christmas that doesn't shoot straight. I have over 400 rounds through it and after the break-in period it's fired every time. Unfortunately I can't ever hit the target in the same spot with any regularity. I thought I was an awful shot with this little gun so I bought a Crimson Trace laser sight to help. No good. Even my friends and my son can't shoot this gun accurately so I think I can say it's not me. I love it for it's concealability but I'd like to be a little more accurate with it. Do you think it's something about the gun itself or are we all holding it incorrectly?

Any ideas?

What ammo are you shooting? And if you're using different makes, do you have the same problem with all of them?

I have mostly shot PMC 115-grain and Blazer Brass 115-grain and 124-grain and found the pistol very accurate. But one day I tried a box of 147-grain American Eagle with flat top bullets and the pattern was all over the target, just completely random and uncontrollable, despite checking my grip, trigger pull and flinch. It was like I was shooting a blunderbuss.

[wtim]

I'm using a variety of ammunition. After everything that's said I think it's me and a need to hit the range with my PM9 as often as I can.

[jocko]

just keep shootin. I use ther FBI ":Q" bolwling pin type silhouette. Its a big target, meant to be human torso, keep um allin there, forget about the groups sh!t. try hard but again forget about it. Keep um allin that target and ur good to go for defense, when you wnato hit beer cans at 25 yards, BUT ANUTTER GUN FOR THAT..

[RRP]

I'm using a variety of ammunition. After everything that's said I think it's me and a need to hit the range with my PM9 as often as I can.

Hey, we've all been through it. These tiny pistols take some work. But mastering them is part of the fun.

Ammo is expensive and hard to find. You'll be amazed at how much you can improve your technique simply by dry-fire exercises. Practice pulling the trigger straight back for a clean, crisp break. The goal is not to deviate from the sight picture while you pull the trigger.

When you can pull the trigger, without changing the sight picture, you'll be able to hit your target consistently. It won't take you long to achieve this with some dry-fire practice.

Enjoy the training. Come back and tell us how you're progressing.

[wtim]

Will do. Do you recommend dry firing with snap caps or are they unnecessary?

[wtim]

just keep shootin. I use ther FBI ":Q" bolwling pin type silhouette. Its a big target, meant to be human torso, keep um allin there, forget about the groups sh!t. try hard but again forget about it. Keep um allin that target and ur good to go for defense, when you wnato hit beer cans at 25 yards, BUT ANUTTER GUN FOR THAT..

Yeah that's what my Glock 19 and Walther PPQ is for. I AM keeping 95% of the rounds fired within the torso picture. I guess I'm too much of a perfectionist.:o

[RRP]

Will do. Do you recommend dry firing with snap caps or are they unnecessary?

They are unnecessary, but I have them, so I use them. They certainly can't hurt.

Even more helpful than snap caps is a LaserLyte cartridge. They allow you to see your hits. And you can tell if there is any gun movement when squeezing the trigger, because the laser will "smear" your target. These are a bit pricey, but ammo isn't cheap either. It doesn't take much use to pay for themselves.

[jocko]

Yeah that's what my Glock 19 and Walther PPQ is for. I AM keeping 95% of the rounds fired within the torso picture. I guess I'm too much of a perfectionist.:o

lets put this 95% thing into proper perspective. U might thing that is maybe not good but look at it this way.

Line up 100 Muzzy terrroists, shoot 100 times, u kill 95. That would be 95%.. Now for me I would call this a good day at the range. Just sayin:amflag:

[wtim]

:Amflag2:

[XDGenerate]

The CM9 has been giving me a little trouble too. But I have only been out with it twice. I know it's me.. If I take my time it's pretty damn accurate. It's just really hard for me. I shoot XD's and XDM's which have a way different trigger. I'll tell you what. After shooting the Kahr and going back to the XDM, I shoot the Springfield WAAAAAY better. I think it makes me concentrate on my grip more trying to pull the shots to the center with the Kahr. Practice, practice, practice.

[ParabellumJ]

I too though my PM9 was to blame for inaccuracies. I thought it was the sights, barrel...nope, it was me. I can shoot my G19 by instinct and put 10 of 10 in the 10 ring at 7 yds. With the Kahr this isn't the case. That trigger demands more of the shooter. I have to really concentrate if I want to hit bulls, but now drawing from a holster and double tapping a silhouette at sd ranges is not a problem. Practice practice practice.

[wtim]

OK... took a little while. Been fighting an arthritis type disease so my hands and wrists have been iffy. Shooting the Kahr better. Still no bullseyes but if all shots hit the head on a silhouette target at 7 yards I'm happy. I love everything else about this gun. I just wish it was as instinctive as the Glock. Still my EDC 'cause it's just so perfect. It sure shoots smoother every time I take it to the range. It's a solid little gun doesn't rattle like my G19. ;)

[sas PM9]

OK... took a little while. Been fighting an arthritis type disease so my hands and wrists have been iffy. Shooting the Kahr better. Still no bullseyes but if all shots hit the head on a silhouette target at 7 yards I'm happy. I love everything else about this gun. I just wish it was as instinctive as the Glock. Still my EDC 'cause it's just so perfect. It sure shoots smoother every time I take it to the range. It's a solid little gun doesn't rattle like my G19. ;)


wtim:

Good job persevering, you will continue to improve with practice.

I also suffer with the arthritic wrist/thumb joints, but I think the PM/CM is the best gun for me because it seems to have the lowest barrel to grip ratio and I think that it has the least felt recoil because of that.
Also I prefer the heavier "boolits" 124's and 147's because they seem to push rather than snap like the 115's. YMMV.

HTH

-steve

[scosgt]

I had problems with my CM 40 shooting low. I bought a laser bore sighter and the sights were right on.
Changed to night sights. Way better sight picture in good light. First shot was dead center bullseye. Next two missed the target!
OK CONCENTRATE. Put the next 30 in the 10 ring.
The Kahr trigger takes a lot of getting used to, especially for a Glock shooter. There is no reset point, and no feel for when it is going to break.
Most of the time it turns out to be the shooter.

[man1nboat]

My advice would be to ditch the laser until you learn how to handle the PM9. I will go out on a limb as well and say that it sounds like its your technique not the gun. Additionally, it's ok to learn how to shoot properly and gain advice. Heck we all had to learn. Good luck to you and you made a wise choice with the PM9.

[berettabone]

You may also want to double check how you see your sights..................I always " put the golf ball on the tee" seems to work for me.................

[garyb]

Will do. Do you recommend dry firing with snap caps or are they unnecessary?

Dry fire practice will help you. Spend a few minutes every day getting used to that trigger. Don't take off the laser. Use the laser as a dry fire practice tool. It takes time to get used to these small handguns. It will come. It is not the gun. IT took me some time to get used to my PM40 too. Good thing you did not go with a 40....haha. Seriously....it will come and you will be glad you took the time to get used to her.

[CJB]

lots n lots of dry fire practice....

The whole trigger finger/muscle memory thing.... its like learning to walk again.

I'm not a great shot with my Kahrs. It took a lot of practice and dry firing to be.... maybe a passable ok shot.

I have shot bullseye pistol in the past with 1911 and Ruger .22 and did ok in the 280's with the Ruger. Shooting the Kahr was like ... ****... anoher world of trigger control.

Now I realize that I'm not bullseye shooting and I want to be able to hit a person in the middle without much thought or error, and it only needs to be at about 20 feet away max. I can do that now. I can even double tap into a full size target with repeatable results. And I can keep a group at 7 meters in about the size of a pie plate. That sucks for a bullseye shooter! It really really really sucks. But I'm also satisfied with it because of the nature of how I expect to (hopefully never) use the pistol.

[jocko]

ur on target there cjb. one has to know what heis buying a certain kind of gun for.

[KCAutoBob]

lots n lots of dry fire practice....

The whole trigger finger/muscle memory thing.... its like learning to walk again.

I'm not a great shot with my Kahrs. It took a lot of practice and dry firing to be.... maybe a passable ok shot.

I have shot bullseye pistol in the past with 1911 and Ruger .22 and did ok in the 280's with the Ruger. Shooting the Kahr was like ... ****... anoher world of trigger control.

Now I realize that I'm not bullseye shooting and I want to be able to hit a person in the middle without much thought or error, and it only needs to be at about 20 feet away max. I can do that now. I can even double tap into a full size target with repeatable results. And I can keep a group at 7 meters in about the size of a pie plate. That sucks for a bullseye shooter! It really really really sucks. But I'm also satisfied with it because of the nature of how I expect to (hopefully never) use the pistol.
Lots of good advice in this thread! IMHO, a small pistol such as the PM9 (which I regularly carry) is no target pistol. That being said, it's capable of remarkable (unbelievable, even) accuracy at ranges most would shake their heads at! But, if you want high accuracy at any distance, everything has to be "just right"!
I had been carrying a Keltec P11 for years, and if you want struggle, try that! When I first shot a friend's PM9- WOW!-thought I'd been transported to the heavenly realms. My opinion is that such small (micro-size) pistols demand far greater effort and practiced skill than the uninitiated would think. It's the price you pay for safety and concealability. Just sayin....

[jocko]

wellu could not have said that ny better...

[mikemc53]

Now I don't have a lot of time or experience with the Kahr (CM9), nor do I have much with handguns in general, but I will say that the accuracy of the Kahr is pretty darn good.

I am not a real good shot to start with and pretty much have only been shooting small DAO guns as it is (SCCY-cpx2, S&W BG 380 and the CM9) so my comparison sample is limited but, for my tastes, the trigger on the Kahr is like gold. Smooth and pretty light - again I'm comparing it to two pretty tough and long pulls but, I really like it.

Also, and I see this was noted by someone else here, I shoot better with one hand as opposed to two - with all of the pistols noted, by the way. I'm sure that my two hand grip needs work and some of it is my sighting, but my question becomes: If I shoot well with one hand, why would I need to work with two? Not being a smart*** just wanting to know advantages, etc. When I practice I still do the majority of the shooting with two hands but will always work in a few magazines with the one hand grip.

Another note on the gun. My SCCY is a similar size and also a 9mm (though a double stack) but has noticeably more recoil - though not really a tough gun to handle. The Kahr is a dream to shoot and I wonder why the difference.

[PattayaPistol]

I find that after a couple of years owning my PM9 I still am continually surprised at how accurate the little gun really is, and just how easy for good follow up shots.

It is always possible that any particularly gun is faulty and not accurate and as such would require a trip back to the mother ship, but usually after some concerted effort on the part of the user to learn its idiosyncrasies these guns will continue to amaze.

Good luck with your gun.

PP

[wyntrout]

The LASER can be a good training aid during dry firing practice. If you do everything perfect, the LASER won't move much and the shot would have hit where the LASER was at the trigger pull... but if you're like most of us, and not concentrating on NOT moving the pistol... the LASER makes a large "whifferdill" in the air... or an ampersand... or whatever... and the impact is SOMEWHERE on that "whifferdill" described in the air by the LASER from the movement of the pistol as you pulled or jerked the trigger.

The LASERLYTE training cartridge does the same thing, but not continuously... supposedly about 200 milliseconds... time for a lot of movement magnified tremendously at 7 yards.

I have to really concentrate and work hard not to wiggle the pistol, but that's what I normally do... lots of "whifferdills".:rolleyes:

Many times my first shot is dead center and it goes downhill from there.

Wynn:)

[wtim]

Well almost 1000 shots through my PM9 and I'm still not getting any better. I even had one of the salesmen at my LGS try it and he wasn't much better. He even missed and tried to pass it off as if it went through an existing bullet hole. He tried to tell me it was the way I was gripping the gun so I did it his way and was worse. I went back to holding it one handed and did much better than with a two handed grip.

So, if I'm hitting target at seven yards and the hits are in a 12 inch radius or so is that all I can expect from this gun? I was disheartened reading a review on the PM9 where the author was keeping it in a 4 1/2 inch group. What groups do you guys get with your PM9? If it is a problem with the gun what is it? The barrel?

Still carrying but beginning to think more and more that it's back to the Glock. Love it but it's so much bigger than the Kahr.

[ParabellumJ]

I'm sorry to admit this sounds like a thread I posted several months back. I traded the Kahr for a Glock 26 and haven't looked back. Kahrs are great little guns but they aren't for everyone.

[Matthew L.]

I've always heard that violent encounters will happen at 7 yards and under. Call me crazy but I never practice shooting further than 7 yards. Practice at 7, 5 and 3 yards and get good at it and you'll be fine. Its not a competition, long distance pistol.

Also concentrate on trigger control. Try using the pad of your finger and the first joint. Stick with which one works best for you. Dry fire practice is a must. Use snap caps. That will pinpoint your flaws. Ive found that using the pad of my finger is better than my first joint. Using the joint puts side movement into the pistol causing me to shoot low left and everywhere else.

Having a death grip on the gun with your strong hand is also a no no. That can cause you to be all over the target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQgLmQl1zDw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Good little video on grip

[CJCM9]

I didn't have time to read thru all the posts yet.
Are your shots all over, erratic?
Or are they consistently off in one direction?

[garyb]

PM does not shoot straight. Get serious!

[deadeye]

CM9. Couldn't hit a 81/2 X 11 sheet of paper to start with. Found a CO2 pistol that is about the same size and weight of the CM9 with a trigger pull almost identical. Practice, practice and more practice. Am now putting all the shots in a 3" circle. Hope to get better yet. Don't shoot any further than 7 yds. That is what the gun is designed for. I have a R&H Sportsman .22 with a 6 " barrel that I can drive nails with at 50'. That is what it is designed for.

[garyb]

CM9. Couldn't hit a 81/2 X 11 sheet of paper to start with. Found a CO2 pistol that is about the same size and weight of the CM9 with a trigger pull almost identical. Practice, practice and more practice. Am now putting all the shots in a 3" circle. Hope to get better yet. Don't shoot any further than 7 yds. That is what the gun is designed for. I have a R&H Sportsman .22 with a 6 " barrel that I can drive nails with at 50'. That is what it is designed for.

I agree that you can improve your accuracy, gun handling and speed by practice with a gun that is easier for you to shoot. I have found that my practice with a M&PPro40 has significantly improved the same with my PM40. However, I disagree with your limitations of design. They are designed to shoot them as good as you are able to at any distance. I've never read or have seen anywhere where any gun is designed for accuracy up to a certain distance. The gun is only as good as you are with it. I have increased the accuracy of my PM40 out to 25yds. Try benching that CM and you will see just how accurate they can shoot out to far greater distances than a mere 7 yrds. Likewise for your R&H. It is not the gun.

[MBSL500]

A while back I bought a new 1911.
A few days later I took it to the range to fire a box or two thought it.
I couldn’t hit the target no matter what I did.
I was absolutely convinced that the gun was bad.
I called the gun dealer I bought the gun from and told him that I thought the gun was bad.
He agreed to drive over and try the gun himself.
He fired about 4 magazines though it and never missed the target.
It wasn’t the gun, it was me…and I had been shooting handguns a long time.

[jocko]

I always look with a leary eye of any post where the owner blames the gun. Especially with an owner who just buyts a kahr. IMO they have no clue what DA really is until they shoot a kahr. It takes time and rounds down range to get decent to good with a kahr, but IMO ur still nvber gonna achieve 1911 single action type groups. A few may but most will not. One ha sto accept kahrs for what they are made for. I have yet to read of any kahr add that sayts this is your true IDPA or any type of match competitive gun. Not that It maybe cannot be but there are just dozen of easier to sdhoot gns that fill that niche. Akahr will no doubt save ur life for more than likely ur gonna carry it more than u would a bulkly ass 1911 or big Sig or HK. accept if for what it is desgned to do and u will never look back. Just sayin

MBLS500 kinda hit thge nail on the heat with his statement.:amflag:

[CJCM9]

Funny thing is that the first grouping thru my gun was about a 3" circle.
I'm very happy with the way it shoots.
Some groupings get a little big, then I concentrate a little more and they come together.

[garyb]

Funny thing is that the first grouping thru my gun was about a 3" circle.
I'm very happy with the way it shoots.
Some groupings get a little big, then I concentrate a little more and they come together.

I found the same thing in the early days with my PM. It certainly takes more concentration to shoot a short barrel gun. The more you work with it the better you'll get with it. Shoot it off a bench for awhile until you get used to that trigger. Start at 10 yrds and when you have that mastered, move back to 15, 20, 25...in a few outings. I also found my PM40 shoots more accurately with my softer reloads. I have not verified if that is me or the gun and it does not matter much at this point, because I reload for it. With my muzzleloaders, if I add powder until the groups start to splay, I back off a bit and call it good to keep it grouping (usually around 100 gr). I have not verified this with the handgun yet, but I betting that a lighter powder charge will yield better accuracy at handgun distances. Some day I am going to play with this to confirm if it may be true.

Anyway, trigger time via range time and dry fire time will make a huge difference for you. Getting used to the trigger on the bench helps too. There, you know what the gun is capable of doing. Puffy reloads may help you too. Good luck.

[garyb]

I always look with a leary eye of any post where the owner blames the gun. Especially with an owner who just buyts a kahr. IMO they have no clue what DA really is until they shoot a kahr. It takes time and rounds down range to get decent to good with a kahr, but IMO ur still nvber gonna achieve 1911 single action type groups. A few may but most will not. One ha sto accept kahrs for what they are made for. I have yet to read of any kahr add that sayts this is your true IDPA or any type of match competitive gun. Not that It maybe cannot be but there are just dozen of easier to sdhoot gns that fill that niche. Akahr will no doubt save ur life for more than likely ur gonna carry it more than u would a bulkly ass 1911 or big Sig or HK. accept if for what it is desgned to do and u will never look back. Just sayin

MBLS500 kinda hit thge nail on the heat with his statement.:amflag:

I agree Jocko. However, I don't look at IDPA for it's competitive scores. I look at it a little differently....for its' training and gun handling benefits. I rotate between my M&P Pro40 and my PM40 so I can practice with my PM what I learn on my M&P. In this way, any IDPA legal gun is an IDPA gun...unless of course you are going strictly for score, in which case a competitive gun is the way to go. But essentially I hear what you are saying and agree. The compact PM is not a "competitive" gun, but you can use it in IDPA for the training benefit. Hopefully, what I am saying is making sense.

[JimC]

WOW! Seven months and still alive...

Every gun manufacturer turns out a gun once in awhile that may not perform up to expectations. It happens.

That being said, I find it hard to believe that Kahr could put out one of it's best and most costly pistols that won't shoot straight.

Not everyone can shoot a sub compact firearm, pure and simple.

[wtim]

Shots are all over the paper and it's not just me. It's everyone who tries it. I understand that they're newbies to the gun so I cut them slack there. I'm very used to the trigger and dry firing with the laser I produce very little wiggle, maybe off by 1/2 inch or less.

[wtim]

I would love to have a Kahr aficionado try my gun. I've shot the XDS in .45 and done very well. Is that considered a sub compact pistol?

[jocko]

About 10 years ago I have a J frame mhammerless model 342. I put a CTon it and shot the best 50 shot group in MY LIFE. I still have the target in my garage even, as a test of what I did. Prior to that CT on it, my groupls were all over the fokking place, I mean horrible, embarrassing to say the least. The CT on that guyn just took away my nee dto use any sights on thegun for POA. The CT once I got it sighted in was all I had to do was put thedot out there and the bullet soon followed.

Shots all ovber the paper for most here will get theopinion it is the shooter and not the gun. Now can it be the gun???Sure it can but IMO I seriously doubt it. U can if you so desire send it back to kahr, possably on ur dime though and not theirs and let them check it out, but again u have to be prepareed to accept what they tellyouto. Kahr when the test fire their guns, they don't sit there kand adjust the fsights etc to hit dead center either. They test fire for a group, now no doubt they have installed enough sights to know pretty well how to put themon thegun so it shoots pretty dead center, but if u have a bad barrel, IUT WILL NOT GROUP.

I can say without a doubt my shot groups o7ut of my pMJ9 are all over the damn target and have been that way since day one. I am noot a good shot never was and my kahrs , all 3 of them really magnify that to. I shoot my G19 5X betterthan my kahrs. Its the trgger system, no doubt in my mind. I would be if I had a CT on my PMJ9 I would shoot it very well, but I don't wnatto do that either.

Not alibing for hkahr here, as it's ur gun, sou have to decide. My opinion isjust that AN OPINION. I do remember back when though when an owner here got a kahr and there was no rifling in the barrel, so sh!t can happen.. I wouldbe very surpirsed if kahr would pick up the mailing tab both ways, but again u can email Jay at kahr, state ur case and see what flows..

These gun makers can callany gun they make kany darn thinbg kthey want. a sub compact for like HK would be a big fokker for a kahr. IMO it is not the size of the kahrs that is the issue with most. IT IS THE TRIGGER SYSTEM. and that my friend....Is what it is..

[deadeye]

I agree that you can improve your accuracy, gun handling and speed by practice with a gun that is easier for you to shoot. I have found that my practice with a M&PPro40 has significantly improved the same with my PM40. However, I disagree with your limitations of design. They are designed to shoot them as good as you are able to at any distance. I've never read or have seen anywhere where any gun is designed for accuracy up to a certain distance. The gun is only as good as you are with it. I have increased the accuracy of my PM40 out to 25yds. Try benching that CM and you will see just how accurate they can shoot out to far greater distances than a mere 7 yrds. Likewise for your R&H. It is not the gun.
Actually we do agree. It was me not the gun that was inaccurate. I bought the CM9 knowing it wasn't a range gun. My son has a Glock 17 that I am much more accurate with but can't be concealed nearly as well as the CM. I bought it for concealed carry and practice at 7 yds for obvious reasons. Will try longer distances as soon as I get better at 7 yds. Or if I do. At 70 years old my hands aren't as steady as they once were. Have to wear glasses that will let me see the sights or the target. Can't see both with any glasses. Am now waiting for the golden years to appear so I can feel like 30 again.

[jocko]

I am70 wear o line glasses, eye sight is not perfect for me at any time it seems. I just got new glasses ordered last week. Cataracts are starting to show up in the tests, so I certainly ain't gonna blame a gun for my ills. I realy don't worry to much about my accuracy either. In opver 50+ years of carrying, I have never ha dto draw my gun in anger, let alone shoot at anyone (thank god for that to) I feel good enough at 7 yards but again I am shooint at a paper target thgat does not soot back so hard tellin if that day ever happens what a shot out with ol jocko would even produce. but I don't worry about that either. I feel safer with my PMJ9 in my pocket than not havig it on me. Peace of mind of wirt alot to me. Let me know deadeye what those golden years are supposed to look like. It was 35 today ad I still roand 50 mles round trip onmy Harley for coffee. I can't put a price on that.

[deadeye]

Probably never know. I have to agree with one thing though. When I'm on my Harley I do feel 35. Wonderful feeling even though it doesn't last as long as I'd like.

[CJCM9]

I would love to have a Kahr aficionado try my gun. I've shot the XDS in .45 and done very well. Is that considered a sub compact pistol?

Where do you live?
I think you need someone that shoots a PM9 or CM9 to shoot yours.

OR ship it to Kahr and have them evaluate it.

[JimC]

OR ship it to Kahr and have them evaluate it.

Exactly...contact Jay in CS at jay.dandrea@kahr.com

Explain your dilemma and ask to return the pistol for evaluation by them and then, you will know if it's the pistol or you.

May you have a bad barrel.

[wtim]

I live near Grand Rapids Michigan. I'll have to think about sending it back to the factory.

[CJCM9]

I live near Grand Rapids Michigan. I'll have to think about sending it back to the factory.

Stick it in a box and ship it!

[gmcjetpilot]

Get a good instructor.
Take some high-speed HD video of your shooting and watch it.
Then watch Hickok45 videos or some other shooters, gun hardly moves.

Sell or trade the gun for a Glock 26. I have one as well as CM9.
I shoot faster and more accurately with my Glock 26, but CM9 not bad.
The G26 is a little thicker, heaver and longer, making it easier to shoot.
HOWEVER NO GUN CAN OVERCOME BAD HABITS AND TECHNIQUE.

I've taught a few people how to shoot last year, indoor & outdoor ranges.
I start them on a Ruger 22 MKIII (22LR). They would do fairly well.
Then I had them shoot other guns, including a Ruger LC9 I had at the time.
They all shot low because as the pull the trigger they lost sight picture.

Sure AMMO and GUNS can cause some error, but I am convinced it is
mostly shooter issues. Failures to feed, are limp wrist issues.

If you want to get scientific about it. Get a gun vice, remote trigger, and
setup some shots with your laser pointer. Are you getting different accuracy
or "flyers", taking the shooter out of the equation? Doubt it.

The fact strangers who may not be great shots are not much better than
you does not convince me. You know there are cops that have to qualify
once a year that are VERY bad shots.

[Allen]

wtim:

Not if you can continue to improve and gain confidence.

Look at this video to be enlightened to the capabilities of this weapon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Av9COfLB_Y

-steve

What am I doing wrong, or not doing? When I click on the above link and get to youtube all I get is just a blank black square. Nothing starts or happens. And if I click on any of the other choices on the right side of the screen the black square label will switch to that named item but the black square is all I get to see.

[TucsonMTB]

What am I doing wrong, or not doing? When I click on the above link and get to youtube all I get is just a blank black square. Nothing starts or happens. And if I click on any of the other choices on the right side of the screen the black square label will switch to that named item but the black square is all I get to see.
Nothing wrong with that link to Hickok45's video. Try another browser, perhaps.

Also, make sure you have a fast connection. YouTube is not dial-up friendly.

It is also possible you just need to restart your computer. Windows is like that sometimes. :rolleyes:

[wtim]

My daughter wanted to go to the range to shoot so we went yesterday. I showed her the differences between the Glock G19 and the Kahr PM9. As she has shot the Glock before and didn't do real well with it I figured the Kahr would be worse. How wrong I was! She shot the Kahr better than me!! So at least now I know that it's me and not the gun. One of the salesmen at the range had a PM9 also and couldn't shoot it worth a toot so he had just traded his in. Looks like more practice for me or give the gun to my daughter!:59:

[TucsonMTB]

It's me...
My daughter wanted to go to the range to shoot so we went yesterday. . .

Looks like more practice for me or give the gun to my daughter!:59:
Ever notice how the ladies in our lives almost always find a way to keep us modest? :o

My wife usually shoots everything we own better than I do . . . the sole exception being "my" M1 Garand. :)

[PattayaPistol]

Ever notice how the ladies in our lives almost always find a way to keep us modest? :o

My wife usually shoots everything we own better than I do . . . the sole exception being "my" M1 Garand. :)


Females, natural born killers :)

[TucsonMTB]

Females, natural born killers :)
Very true, sir! http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ejustsomeguy/icon_lol.gif

You comment reminds me of the chorus from the hit song by the group Queen:

She's a Killer Queen
Gunpowder, guillotine
Dynamite with a laser-beam
Guaranteed to blow your mind
Anytime . . .

[wtim]

Well after 1100+ rounds through it with only two bulls eye's and lots of misses I finally gave up. I traded my PM9 for an XDS 9. That being said I now have some PM9 goodies I'd like to get rid of. Anybody interested in a Crimson Trace Laser Guard, N8 Squared original IWB holster for the PM9 with Laser and two Pearce grip extensions? Over $230.00 worth of goods and I'll sell it for $125.00 and pay for shipping.

[jocko]

thats one more bulls eye than I have ever gotten, but I luv my PMJ9. not the guns fault as u well know. Kahrs are not the easiest gun to master. If one was nevergood with a double action wheelgun, expect no difference in a kahr.U will shoot the xd better due to its different trgger system. enjoy it, nice gun..

[wtim]

Thanks Jocko, I hope to!

[Pointblank]

http://www.gunnuts.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/qualification-target-you-suck.jpg

[wtim]

Ok, Ok I get the hint! I suck!

[wyntrout]

I don't mind hitting the center once in a while, but I like to use most of the rest of the target, too. Putting all of the bullets in the center is kind of wasteful.:rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with my eyes aging faster than the rest of my body. I can probably do better at 10 yards than 7... sometimes... and much better at 7 and 10 yards than 15 or more now. I'm doing good to keep all hits on a sheet of paper at 15 yards now.

I can do better with my Mark III 22/45 Lite with the Majestic trigger kit and a few more cheaper enhancements.

Wynn:D

[leftysixty]

Well folks, here is my 2 bits worth;

Someone who is able to shoot well with a double action revolver (shooting double action) generally has no trouble shooting well with a Kahr pistol.

Trouble is that 'cause LEO's no longer shoot revolvers a lot of folks no longer want revolvers. And if they do, they will shoot it single action style.

I you run a Kahr the same as you would a double action revolver you can shoot it very well indeed.

A person that can qualify with a 2" revolver at 25 yards can darn well do the same with a 3" Kahr pistol. In the day if you were a LEO you could do it, or no job! :(

The Proper trigger manipulation is way easier to show in person than it is by written word.

If you truly want to learn how, look up some of the old books on revolver shooting. Find some old fart that shoots double action revolver, and ask him to show you how.

If you live near Salem Oregon I would be happy show you.

Remember that I can document the brain damage, and I know what I think I know.:D

[Pointblank]

You are absolutely right. I cut my teeth on S&W revolvers and if you can master those, a Kahr is an easy transition.

[wtim]

That's what I keep hearing until I talk to the guys at my LGS. They are rather disparaging of the Kahr themselves, even the guys who shoot revolvers regularly.

[leftysixty]

Just be cause they shoot them, it don't mean that they can do it properly:D

[100percent]

I love the target. Mostly I suck but if I moved the target closer I would suck less.

I waste ammo shooting at my 6x12" gong at 50 yards. But the thrill of hearing the strike always makes me feel good.

I only read the last page of this thread. Did someone else besides the owner shoot the offending weapon?

[Glock Holiday]

http://www.gunnuts.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/qualification-target-you-suck.jpg
I'm so stealing that...

[wtim]

Well after 1100+ rounds through it with only two bulls eye's and lots of misses I finally gave up. I traded my PM9 for an XDS 9. That being said I now have some PM9 goodies I'd like to get rid of. Anybody interested in a Crimson Trace Laser Guard, N8 Squared original IWB holster for the PM9 with Laser and two Pearce grip extensions? Over $230.00 worth of goods and I'll sell it for $125.00 and pay for shipping.

Posted these items on eBay Saturday morning and sold them a couple of hours later. See you guys at the range and thanks for all of your helpful advice!

[jocko]

come back , u don't have tp 0wn a kahr to be here, it helps but not necessary..