P380 FTFeed

[wyntrout]

I just ordered some Keltec P3AT +10% springs from Wolff Springs to put in my P380 magazines. I think that the more powerful springs may solve my failures to feed where the bullet is stuck against the feed ramp. There must be some kind of binding going on in the magazine tube. I also ordered some more 7-round 9mm +5% mag springs for kahrs. I ran one short after using one of the 3-pack on the PM 7-round mag and only had two left for my 3 K9 mags. I put the PM9 original 7-round mag spg in one of the K9 mags until I get the new ones. The K9 mags are 12+ years old and have been under constant compression, fully loaded. The order for pricing info:
SKU QTY DESCRIPTION UNIT PRICE ($) TOTAL PRICE ($)
79073 1 KELTEC P32, P3AT +10% XP MAG SPRING Pak of 3 17.29 17.29
79293 1 KAHR 7RND 9mm, 5% XP MAGAZINE SPRING Pak of 3 17.29 17.29
79071 1 KELTEC P32, P3AT +10% XP MAG SPRING Pak of 1 7.49 7.49
SUBTOTAL ($) 42.07
SHIPPING & HANDLING ($) 6.15 (Priority USPS, first pound)
FL 0.00% SALES TAX ($) 0.00

ORDER TOTAL ($) 48.22

Wolff Gunsprings - Firearm Springs for Semi-Auto Pistols, Revolvers, Rifles, & Shotguns (http://www.gunsprings.com/)

Now I just have to get some more .380 ammo at acceptable cost.
Wynn:D

[In-Yo-Grill]

I'd like to know how the P3AT springs work out for the P380. I'm sure you'll give us a report in due time.

I am wanting to replace the striker springs in my Kahrs as per Jocko's suggestion and he said it lightened the trigger a bit. Sounds like it makes it even smoother than it already is.

[Bawanna]

I just ordered some Keltec P3AT +10% springs from Wolff Springs to put in my P380 magazines. I think that the more powerful springs may solve my failures to feed where the bullet is stuck against the feed ramp. There must be some kind of binding going on in the magazine tube. I also ordered some more 7-round 9mm +5% mag springs for kahrs. I ran one short after using one of the 3-pack on the PM 7-round mag and only had two left for my 3 K9 mags. I put the PM9 original 7-round mag spg in one of the K9 mags until I get the new ones. The K9 mags are 12+ years old and have been under constant compression, fully loaded. The order for pricing info:
SKU QTY DESCRIPTION UNIT PRICE ($) TOTAL PRICE ($)
79073 1 KELTEC P32, P3AT +10% XP MAG SPRING Pak of 3 17.29 17.29
79293 1 KAHR 7RND 9mm, 5% XP MAGAZINE SPRING Pak of 3 17.29 17.29
79071 1 KELTEC P32, P3AT +10% XP MAG SPRING Pak of 1 7.49 7.49
SUBTOTAL ($) 42.07
SHIPPING & HANDLING ($) 6.15 (Priority USPS, first pound)
FL 0.00% SALES TAX ($) 0.00

ORDER TOTAL ($) 48.22

Wolff Gunsprings - Firearm Springs for Semi-Auto Pistols, Revolvers, Rifles, & Shotguns (http://www.gunsprings.com/)

Now I just have to get some more .380 ammo at acceptable cost.
Wynn:D

Don't Wolfe make any extra power springs for the Kahr. Isn't putting Kel Tec stuff in a Kahr kind of like using Rambler parts in your BMW? I'd not get worked up about those K9 mag springs either, ain't like the old days where mag springs that aren't rotated every 3 days take a set. Better technology. That being said I still rotate mags but I think it's just a hold over habit from the old days. Call me dumb but I've never replaced a mag spring on personal guns. REplaced lots on PD guns that didn't need it but I was ordered to by overwrought worrisome firearms instructors. Might be a good experiment to get that 380 running though, I'll gladly give you that one.

[wyntrout]

I'll definitely try the springs out as soon as I get them. The range here has .380 ammo. I think it was $20 a box of range fodder. When I insert a full mag the top cartridge is high and in line with the chamber. When I had FTFeeds, the carts were butted lower into the feed ramp. Whenever Wolff starts making .45 springs I'll replace my PM45's myriad magazines as well. I think that I've had the same FTFeed problems with all of my Kahrs, though more in the P380.
Wynn:D

[Bawanna]

I'll definitely try the springs out as soon as I get them. The range here has .380 ammo. I think it was $20 a box of range fodder. When I insert a full mag the top cartridge is high and in line with the chamber. When I had FTFeeds, the carts were butted lower into the feed ramp. Whenever Wolff starts making .45 springs I'll replace my PM45's myriad magazines as well. I think that I've had the same FTFeed problems with all of my Kahrs, though more in the P380.
Wynn:D

I thought Wolff made all of Kahrs springs? You just waiting to buy direct from Wolff and save $. Is it cheaper that way?

I can't find the correct thread but my K40 just hit my desk from Magna Port. It looks really nice, wish I had a camera here at work, may try to borrow one. They did give me a 15% LE discount so saved 21 bucks! Now I gotta get out and shoot it to see how much if effects things. My son has a good camera, I'll try to do like you suggested and get some good muzzle shots of it going off. I think it has the movie mode and all that, the question is if either one of us is smart enough to figure out how to work it. Hopefully he knows, I sure don't.

[deadhead1971]

Does the P380 cause "smileys"?

I have a LCP that causes these evil little things. Basically the front of the bullet is dented from hitting the feed ramp. This is a well documented thing for the LCP and Kel Tec. I have not heard of this with the P380.

Read more

The Ruger LCP Smiley Test Report (http://usrange.org/smf/index.php?topic=3049.0)

[jocko]

I'd like to know how the P3AT springs work out for the P380. I'm sure you'll give us a report in due time.

I am wanting to replace the striker springs in my Kahrs as per Jocko's suggestion and he said it lightened the trigger a bit. Sounds like it makes it even smoother than it already is.

I do hope you understand that the 5# striker spring is for ever kahr EXCEPT the P380. They make no different striker spring for the P380. I think you knew that and Ijust didn't want readers to get confused here as we seem to be talking about the P380 and the big kahrs in the same threads here.

Trust me that 5# striker spring is awesome, it is not to light, still the same trigger travel and wolff's makes it . I have never ahd a lite strike with it and I have 25,900 rounds out of my PM( and alittle over 5000 out of my K9 and both have that 5# spring. Nice set up and just drops in,...

[Bawanna]

I do hope you understand that the 5# striker spring is for ever kahr EXCEPT the P380. They make no different striker spring for the P380. I think you knew that and Ijust didn't want readers to get confused here as we seem to be talking about the P380 and the big kahrs in the same threads here.

Trust me that 5# striker spring is awesome, it is not to light, still the same trigger travel and wolff's makes it . I have never ahd a lite strike with it and I have 25,900 rounds out of my PM( and alittle over 5000 out of my K9 and both have that 5# spring. Nice set up and just drops in,...

So the 5# striker spring is lighter than the original, am I understanding that correctly. Slightly lighter pull, travel would remain the same as you already mentioned. I'm slow sometimes, just trying to grasp this concept. I'm ok with my trigger pull but if this is a good thing, I should give it a whirl.

[In-Yo-Grill]

I do hope you understand that the 5# striker spring is for ever kahr EXCEPT the P380. They make no different striker spring for the P380. I think you knew that and Ijust didn't want readers to get confused here as we seem to be talking about the P380 and the big kahrs in the same threads here.

Trust me that 5# striker spring is awesome, it is not to light, still the same trigger travel and wolff's makes it . I have never ahd a lite strike with it and I have 25,900 rounds out of my PM( and alittle over 5000 out of my K9 and both have that 5# spring. Nice set up and just drops in,...

I figured as such but thanks for clarifying either way. Once I decide which Kahrs I'm going to keep I'll put the springs in them and post up my reports.

[wyntrout]

Well, I heard from Ian and answered him:

From: Ian.Burr@kahr.com [mailto:Ian.Burr@kahr.com]
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 2:57 PM
To: James Troutman
Subject: Re: Still getting failures to feed with P380


You should not have to replace the mag spring with a stronger one. The only thing that I would recommend is trying a different type of America made ammo. The only reason I mention it is because when they tested it here they did not have any failures. If that does not render any better results I would arrange to have it picked up so that we can take another look at it. Please let me know what works best for you.

Ian Burr

MY reply:
Thanks for answering, Ian.
I’ve ordered the Wolff Keltec P3AT magazine springs and will test those when I get them. When I insert a full magazine with the slide locked back, the cartridge is presented high and in line with the chamber. When firing and having the failures to feed, the rounds that “stick” against the feed ramp seem lower in front, so I’m wondering if the follower is binding at the front of the tube and the slide is held open by the cartridge lower in the front. I didn’t look close enough at the range to see if the slide was against the rear of the cartridge or if the slide lock had engaged because the cartridge nose was too low.
Ammo choice for range use is pretty limited and I’ve sold some of the ammo(500 rounds of MFS FMJ) I had for the .380 before I received the pistol , due to bad reports online. Fiocci and MFS FMJ seem troublesome with the P380. I am constantly searching for .380 ammo online, but I’m not going to pay scalper prices for range ammo.
I’ve replaced all of my K9 and PM9 magazine springs with stronger Wolff springs. The K9’s were 12+ years old and always loaded. I would get stronger .45 ones for the PM45, but Wolff doesn’t list those or the P380, yet. I haven’t been to the range to test any of those new springs, yet, except for that troublesome, prone-to-jam 7-round extended grip magazine that came with the PM9. The +5% Wolff spring did seem to help that magazine work reliably.
I’ll do some more testing.
Wynn:)

Jocko, I did say I was trying the Keltec springs on your advice. I hope that was okay.
Boy! Just saw another eagle fly over... closer and maybe carrying something.
Wynn:D

I haven't noticed any "smilies", but I haven't ejected any stuck cartridges to check them. And yes, the Wolff springs are cheaper, especially, the more you order.

[jocko]

Don't Wolfe make any extra power springs for the Kahr. Isn't putting Kel Tec stuff in a Kahr kind of like using Rambler parts in your BMW? I'd not get worked up about those K9 mag springs either, ain't like the old days where mag springs that aren't rotated every 3 days take a set. Better technology. That being said I still rotate mags but I think it's just a hold over habit from the old days. Call me dumb but I've never replaced a mag spring on personal guns. REplaced lots on PD guns that didn't need it but I was ordered to by overwrought worrisome firearms instructors. Might be a good experiment to get that 380 running though, I'll gladly give you that one.

Bawanna. The 10% extra power magazine springs I suggested to Wyn for his P380 are made by wolffs for the kel tec 32. The magazines in the lcp and kel tec are identical and other than the mag release slot in the P380 mag, are also identical. So the 10% more strength springs will indeed work great in the P380. Whether it helps Wyn with his hssues is not known. I had PM-ed him about this suggestion, as I will relate what I found with the 10% more strength mag springs.

My P380 with 3 magazines was doing great about a month ago while shooting it, two of the mags would not lock open on the last round, actualy I could not even manually rack the slide back and the magazines engage the slide stop lever enough. The other magazine was perfect, so I assumed like most , had to be springs. I had a set of 3 factory kahr mag springs for my P380 on hand, so I just put new springs in those two mags that was giving me issues. Plus new recoils springs....Still no luck , so I put in new followers, still nothing. I took the good springs out of the working magazine and put them in the one mag and walla, it worked. Now I was confused. What had changed??I did everything, I thought...How could it be the actual magazine body even??? as they had worked perfect before..

So I knew wolffs made the 10% more strength mag springs for the kel tecs as I owned 3 of them and they were super, even though the kt never had an auto slide lock, it feed that last round up with more speed.

Anyway I ordered a set of 3 of those 10% more strength kel tec mag springs and put them in my P380 magazines and WALLA. perfection Every magazine locks open as it should. My theory and it could just be a SWAG to (scientifici wild ass guess) is that timing in semi's is everything as we all know. One thing relies on the other thing to do it's job and on time etc.

I told Wyn, that quite possable his FTF issues on his P380 might be a timeing thing, and that he might want to try those 10% more strength mag springs to see if this helps out any. If the slide for some reason is moving to fast for the factory springs to push up that next round, quite possable a FTF can happen, His is hitting on the bottom on his feed ramp.

He has nothing to loose in trying this. One thing is for sure, those 10% more strength mag springs will certainly engage that slide stop lever better than the factory sprngs do, and I think I proved that to myself when I went to this change even. It looks to be like there is 1.5 more coils in the 10% more strength wolffs mag springs. Still easy to put in 6 rounds to. I never had one issue doing that with my kel tecs.

I think wyn understands that I was merely suggesting to try this as #1 It cannot hurt one thing, #2 it will assure proper follower/slide lock contact faster. #3 It might not help his feed issue, and then again it just might.

I also did suggest even though they are practically new to install a new set of kahr recoil springs in his P380.
Wolffs makes no recoil springs or magazine springs per say that says will fit the P380 only. but having been aorund the horn a few times and owning the Kt's and the Ruger lcp (which by the way I also have those springs in it also but it has no auto slide stop either.

I have the 5%more strength wolffs mag springs in my PM9 and K9 and I highly recommend them. I wish wolffs made them in the 10% more strength even, as the only thing that works that auto slide lock lever is the strength of the follower on the last round pushing up that slide lock in a given amount of time to.. Speed and timing is of the essence on that last round which I would say the spring is the most relaxed and possably producing not as much strength to move that follower up fast enough before the slide rides back over it, and there fore as we have read sometimes, "failure to lock open on the last round"

Now in my P380 situation, the question is??? did I fix my issue by covering up the issue with something that should not have been necessary to do even?? Proabably the answer to that is YES.. Sometimes one can fix an issue by doing something to make it work but you really didn't fix the issue, u just skirted around it..

In my case all 3 magazines work perfect now and only a mere spring change was needed to test out

[Bawanna]

Gotcha, I'm a firm believer in if the problem goes away everything is well. At least you diagnosed the issue and did what is necessary to fix it. Nothing is permanently altered or ruined in the process, so nothing to lose. I'm sure it won't be long before Wolff starts making the extra power springs for the Kahr mags as well. If they are identical they should just mark some of the packages Kahr and we'd all be set.

[wyntrout]

I added some more to the last post. I didn't notice any "smiles" because I didn't eject the "stuck" rounds, but was able to pull the slide to the rear and let it go, chambering the round which then fired. I feel like there is binding in the front of the magazine tube with the follower, as the nose of the cartridge is stuck lower and not in line with the chamber. One seems to "dive" once in a while. I've lightly sanded the follower and sprayed the tube and springs with Remington DriLube after cleaning and before re-installing the bases. I've also bent the top part of the spring up just a tiny bit more to help elevate the front of the follower... maybe not enough to help, though.
I'll just wait for the springs and try whatever ammo I can get hold of... FMJ.:p
Wynn:)

The Wolf springs are cheaper. They are sold singly, 3-pack, and 10-pack. The 10-pack is $49.99 + shipping, so I wish they had 5-packs.
Wynn:)

[jocko]

Gotcha, I'm a firm believer in if the problem goes away everything is well. At least you diagnosed the issue and did what is necessary to fix it. Nothing is permanently altered or ruined in the process, so nothing to lose. I'm sure it won't be long before Wolff starts making the extra power springs for the Kahr mags as well. If they are identical they should just mark some of the packages Kahr and we'd all be set.


probably will in time..

If they are identical they should just mark some of the packages Kahr and we'd all be set.

[Bawanna]

I added some more to the last post. I didn't notice any "smiles" because I didn't eject the "stuck" rounds, but was able to pull the slide to the rear and let it go, chambering the round which then fired. I feel like there is binding in the front of the magazine tube with the follower, as the nose of the cartridge is stuck lower and not in line with the chamber. One seems to "dive" once in a while. I've lightly sanded the follower and sprayed the tube and springs with Remington DriLube after cleaning and before re-installing the bases. I've also bent the top part of the spring up just a tiny bit more to help elevate the front of the follower... maybe not enough to help, though.
I'll just wait for the springs and try whatever ammo I can get hold of... FMJ.:p
Wynn:)

The Wolf springs are cheaper. They are sold singly, 3-pack, and 10-pack. The 10-pack is $49.99 + shipping, so I wish they had 5-packs.
Wynn:)
Since your the resident expert on the notch and the beveled stripper I have to assume you've eliminated the bevel as a problem. I say this because you mention that you pulled the slide to the rear and let it go, then it worked. This would take the pressure off the cartridge and allow it another chance to nose up a bit. Could the stripper being beveled a bit more take some of that pressure off? Just a theory. Dont recall if you said the stripper was beveled on the 380 or not.

[wyntrout]

There's a small bevel on the stripper and there is a small gap between the back of the top cartridge and the stripper.
One thing I noticed on the PM45 is that it has a wimpy notch at the front inside of the slide. In comparison, the one on my PM9 is robust and well machined with the remaining metal in the notch maybe a millimeter thick and well-defined edges all around. The one on the PM45 is amateurish-looking, like the one I added to my K9, since the metal was thin there and slightly abraded. The notch is not well-defined and very thin metal there, maybe added as an afterthought or hastily.
The P380 has robust walls in that area and no notch. I feel a photo comparison coming.:D
Wynn

[wyntrout]

Okay... there's a big difference in the PMs' Notches:
Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

Big difference. It appears the bevel is much less pronounced on the 380 as well. I'm still hung up on pulling the slide back and then the round feeds. If there's the requisite "gap" there should be no pressure to speak of on the back of the cartridge. And how is the slide pulling the cartridge back any if in fact it is. Could be your just giving the slide a little more running start forcing the stubborn round past the bottom of the feed ramp and into the chamber? Hmmm we shall ponder.

[wyntrout]

The PM45 has the most bevel -- the fix, after FTFeeds.
The PM9 has almost no bevel... very little, but had a pretty good space or gap between the stripper and the rear of the cartridge.
The P380 has a small bevel... Hmmmm. "Dremel-like" tool time??:rolleyes:

I have to do some more polishing (I got more polishing wheels) on the ramps and maybe the bevels. I want to get some pictures of a full magazine inserted in all of them, with the slide locked back.

Dang! It's hard to get the bevels focused. The auto focus grabs all kinds of points besides the bevel.:(

Wynn:)

[jocko]

I have mixed emotions about messing with that interface bar, beveled or not...

[Bawanna]

I think I'd wait and try the new springs first. Take it one thing at a time so when it's cured you know for sure just what the cure was.

One of the firearms instructors brought me a Glock22, an officers gun. Told me to replace everything, springs, slide lock lever, firing pin, the whole enchilada. I asked why and he said the officer was having a slide lock open jam nearly every magazine. I told him we wouldn't know the fix if we just replaced everything. He said there's no time for rocket science just do it. I of course being the cooperative armorer that I am refused. I issued another gun temporarily and checked out the problem gun. I could not find anything wrong period. I took it to the range and 11 different guys shot it with no problemo, I shot it upside down, lip wristed (or as close as I can mimick limp wristing) no failures. I told them that we had an out of spec officer who apparently was hitting the slide lock lever with his hand somehow. A Glock rep was in the area later and confirmed it was the shooter not the shootee. SO I guess I like to find definite cures, doesn't always happen, sometimes things just cure themselves and no one ever knows...................

[jocko]

oh no, don't tell me that it could ever be the shooter and not the shootee. What next?? andhitting the slide lock lever, that is just impossable, just can't happen, oh my, what next. 11 different guys, hell that like a "squad" plus one reserve even!!!!

[Bawanna]

oh no, don't tell me that it could ever be the shooter and not the shootee. What next?? andhitting the slide lock lever, that is just impossable, just can't happen, oh my, what next. 11 different guys, hell that like a "squad" plus one reserve even!!!!

True story, when I got there a bunch of cops were training. They all lit up when I asked them to help me abuse this glock. I didn't bring my chair so I just shot out the side window of the car. Went thru like 400 rounds in not over half an hour. Shoot, pass it along, everyone loading mags it was great fun. BUT it went bang absolutely every single time. Your probably right though, probably a bad floor mat gasket or something I missed.

[SpudDud]

The 10% extra power magazine springs I suggested to Wyn for his P380 are made by wolffs for the kel tec 32. The magazines in the lcp and kel tec are identical and other than the mag release slot in the P380 mag, are also identical. So the 10% more strength springs will indeed work great in the P380.

In my case all 3 magazines work perfect now and only a mere spring change was needed to test out

jocko:

Can you confirm whether this information was provided by Wolff in response to questions about the suitability of the Wolff/P32 springs in a Kahr P380? Or is this via your observation, alone?

Am just looking to confirm the source of the intel, whether by Wolff or proof/testing. Fact is, you got it to work in each of your P380 mags and resolved the problems. I have a P380 and have nose-down feeding issues as well, so I am strongly considering these springs.

Thanks.

[wyntrout]

Mine are on the way and if I get ammo and springs by Monday, or Tuesday, I might be able to go to the range. Wifey's off Tuesday and Wednesday, and I might have to chauffeur her for a doctor appointment or something. I want to test those and see if my FTFeed go away.... It would be nice.
Wynn:)

The order, again:
SKU QTY DESCRIPTION UNIT PRICE ($) TOTAL PRICE ($)
79073 1 KELTEC P32, P3AT +10% XP MAG SPRING Pak of 3 17.29 17.29
79293 1 KAHR 7RND 9mm, 5% XP MAGAZINE SPRING Pak of 3 17.29 17.29
79071 1 KELTEC P32, P3AT +10% XP MAG SPRING Pak of 1 7.49 7.49
SUBTOTAL ($) 42.07
SHIPPING & HANDLING ($) 6.15
FL 0.00% SALES TAX ($) 0.00
They offer 10-packs for $49.99, but I don't need that many or that much money tied up in springs, though I will have a lot with this order. I thought I had ordered everything they had that I might need on my last order... ~$95 shipped.
I only needed 4 springs for the P380.




ORDER TOTAL ($) 48.22

[jocko]

jocko:

Can you confirm whether this information was provided by Wolff in response to questions about the suitability of the Wolff/P32 springs in a Kahr P380? Or is this via your observation, alone?

Am just looking to confirm the source of the intel, whether by Wolff or proof/testing. Fact is, you got it to work in each of your P380 mags and resolved the problems. I have a P380 and have nose-down feeding issues as well, so I am strongly considering these springs.

Thanks.

I never ask wolffs that question, for I knew they would say we make those springs for the kel tec and cannot say whether they would be OK in any other brand. That is their policy. Now my issues are not the same as what you and wyn are having, My issues were failure for the slide lock lever to do its thing.

have had prior experience with these spring in my Ruger lcp and also in the kel tecs that I once owned, I knew the magazines are identical in size and round total, so why would they not work. that was my thought process in doing it. I had nothing to loose by trying as all of a sudden two of my magazines would not lock open after puttig in new kahr springs etc. Those 10% more power springs to me are super. I would have them in my P380 even if it was doing OK for I just feel that that extra spring strength can only help with slide locking properly.

I am waitng to hear how wyn's works when he gets them in. I had suggested them to him but also told him I had no clue if this would help his or your issues or not for they were different than what mine were... , although I felt they were mag related.

[SpudDud]

^^ Thanks.