PM45 problems

[Sharpsburg]

First off, hello to all. I am new here and this is my first post.

I recently acquired a PM45 in trade and have had nothing but problems with it. I have put approximately 250 rounds through it and get stove pipe failure to eject usually on the 3rd or last round of the mag in 2 out of every 3 mags I fire. Also, occassionally, the slide does not lock back after the last shot is fired. Now, after my last range trip, the slide is incredibly difficult to remove and put back on after cleaning -- almost as if it is hung up on something (maybe something broke??)

I have tried federal ammo, PMC ammo, and winchester white box. I have used 5 different mags (3 five rounders and 2 six rounders -- all Kahr brand), and I get the same results across the board with all mags and all ammo. To say the least, I am very frustrated and have no confidence in this gun beyond the first two shots.

I emailed Kahr and they said it may be shooter "fatigue"?? Is that a nice way of saying limp wristing?? I will ask Kahr for warranty work since it is whithin the 5 year warranty period and the original owner did not turn in a warratnty card (I have it in my possession).

Before I go several weeks without my gun for warranty work, does this sound like anything I can fix on my end without shipping it back to Kahr?

[Glock23]

Strip it down and give it a good detail cleaning. And maybe try putting in a new recoil spring.

[Sharpsburg]

Thanks. I clean after each range session and have not had improved results. I think it may be more than a cleaning issue.


Strip it down and give it a good detail cleaning. And maybe try putting in a new recoil spring.

[gb6491]

Thanks. I clean after each range session and have not had improved results. I think it may be more than a cleaning issue.
Does that include a detailed strip of the slide?
Regards,
Greg

[jocko]

First off, hello to all. I am new here and this is my first post.

I recently acquired a PM45 in trade and have had nothing but problems with it. I have put approximately 250 rounds through it and get stove pipe failure to eject usually on the 3rd or last round of the mag in 2 out of every 3 mags I fire. Also, occassionally, the slide does not lock back after the last shot is fired. Now, after my last range trip, the slide is incredibly difficult to remove and put back on after cleaning -- almost as if it is hung up on something (maybe something broke??)

I have tried federal ammo, PMC ammo, and winchester white box. I have used 5 different mags (3 five rounders and 2 six rounders -- all Kahr brand), and I get the same results across the board with all mags and all ammo. To say the least, I am very frustrated and have no confidence in this gun beyond the first two shots.

I emailed Kahr and they said it may be shooter "fatigue"?? Is that a nice way of saying limp wristing?? I will ask Kahr for warranty work since it is whithin the 5 year warranty period and the original owner did not turn in a warratnty card (I have it in my possession).

Before I go several weeks without my gun for warranty work, does this sound like anything I can fix on my end without shipping it back to Kahr?

u have not read the propper prepping of ur kahr in the kahr tech section. there are some good tips there to checkout. Last resourt is to sendit back.

[Sharpsburg]

After my second range visit, yes. No impact on third range trip. I have done 4 total and each session has been the same.


Does that include a detailed strip of the slide?
Regards,
Greg

[Sharpsburg]

u have not read the propper prepping of ur kahr in the kahr tech section. there are some good tips there to checkout. Last resourt is to sendit back.

I read the manual thoroughly before shooting. It said nothing about prepping. I know about the reccomended 200 round break in but not prepping. I never owned a gun that needed prepping to be functional.

[jocko]

we are just trying to help u out here, send it back then...

[Sharpsburg]

Im not complainaing and appreciate the responses. I am just new to this kind of prep for a fairly expensive pocket gun. I just read the tech thread and I have not done all of the things listed, but will give it a shot on the things I have not done. I bought this gun for pocket carry during the summer, so I dont want to lose months in the factory. Not to mention, I cannot figure out why it is so hard to dissasemble the slide now. The first couple times I cleaned it, it slid off an on with no problem. Now it feels jammed up and I really have to work it back and forth to get it off.

[jocko]

when u pull the slide off, pullthe trigger at the same time and see if that helps. Actually kahrs slides are alittle more tricky than others, but this triggewr thing seems to help alot. u might also look at whyns' prep thread, it shows some photos of the front portion of the slide insiudew where the recoil spring sets. There should be a notch in thgat area, there are photos to look at, if not I am sure someone here with more skills than I will post the photo for u to check out. Take alittle time to know kthis guns inner workings and readsme of the tips given by members here. Most kahrs never need nuttin but some do and some can be done inhouse. Last resort is to sendit back.Kahr will make it right kanditwon't take months either, but if it needs to go back email kahr attn. Jay state ur issue sna d what you have done, tellum thegun is new and have them issue a pickup on the gun. courtesty goes a long way i getting things done right do.
Some guns do have to go back for TLC, not the end of the world, no one wants that but that is what ur warranty is for also.

We callit prepping, most owners would just call it looking over your gun, IMO assume nuttin si right, until u check it over yourself. Good esample is some magazine have had springs in backwards and this will cause issues. takes 5 minutes to check um out, and all ur doin is eliminating any possabilities etc. Onceu go throught what u feel ur know u can do and if the gun still acts up, then it is time to talk to kahr.

[CJB]

Usually, if you have stovepipes and failure to lock back, then a new recoil spring is not going to help. This all points to a new spring, ammo that is not the best, and a wrist that is not as firm as is ideal.

The PM45 is a good design, but it is particular about what it gets fed during break in. Not sure how many rounds your used pistol had down its spout. WWB is not the hottest 45's out there.

Suggestion - let another shooter try the pistol. Try some full power ammo. And/or just keep shooting it.

The Kahr recoil springs are very tight when new.... even if you got one used. It takes a few hundred, or even a little more... to have them become the springs they ought to be. IOW, they're made intentionally tight in order to lose their initial set, and take on a new and long lived working tension with some use. I can tell a huge variation between my well-used PM45 and the new one I bought. Used... maybe several thousand rounds. New, not more than 400. Both work fine, but it took some shooting to get the new one limbered up.

[Sharpsburg]

Thanks, have a busy night ahead of me so I can go shooting tomorrow.

[Sharpsburg]

The PM45 is a good design, but it is particular about what it gets fed during break in. Not sure how many rounds your used pistol had down its spout. WWB is not the hottest 45's out there.


What ammo you recommend? I have been using federal ball, pmc ball and the wwb.

[rjt123]

What ammo you recommend? I have been using federal ball, pmc ball and the wwb.

My range round of choice is plain old Blazer aluminum. My PM45 loves it. Seems a little bit hotter than most other range fodder. YMMV

[Sharpsburg]

Will give it a shot. I think palmettostatearmory.com had some blazer 45 ammo available last week. My local gun stores and Walmart are all dry. I had to hunt for the stuff I have now.

[b4uqzme]

My range round of choice is plain old Blazer aluminum. My PM45 loves it. Seems a little bit hotter than most other range fodder. YMMV

I would suggest the blazer brass during break-in --- just my experiences. I still only shoot brass thru my Kahrs. I had the same issues with my first Kahr and it turned out not to be the pistol. I just kept shooting and practicing and working on my grip until there were no issues. No complaints. I like shootin'. That hard to get the slide off thing might be an issue. Maybe try some different lubricants in the rails or maybe grease. Or maybe it will work itself out (more shootin' ;)). Just things to try before you need to call the company. Good luck. We're all pulling for you.

That's a very small gun with a good amount of recoil/push. If it moves too much in your hands, some of the force needed to open the slide is wasted moving the frame and your hand - causing failures to eject. Plus, there's no good firm platform for the recoil spring to push against when closing the slide - which causes failures to feed. I hope that explanation helps (or was what you needed). Your grip is critical. Sorry to jump on the limpwristing bandwagon but you really gotta rule that out completely before looking to the pistol for problems.

[CJB]

Sometimes you have to jiggle the slide a little forward/back, also helps if you pull the trigger back but don't release it. It takes finagling.

The FN I got is no less expensive than the Kahr - and the instructions specificially state that the pistol was treated for storage before leaving the factory, and that it needs to be prepped before shooting. It lists the areas to prep - similar to our Kahr prep guide, as well as degrease the bore and other metal parts. Consider it forced emotional bonding time with your pistol.....

[Sharpsburg]

Thanks all. I will be heading out to the range this evening. Unfortunately I won't have the blazer tonight but hopefully with focusing on the grip and doing the other prep stuff, this will be a better range session.

[b4uqzme]

I emailed Kahr and they said it may be shooter "fatigue"?? Is that a nice way of saying limp wristing?? I will ask Kahr for warranty work since it is whithin the 5 year warranty period and the original owner did not turn in a warratnty card (I have it in my possession).



Good luck on your shoot today. Let us know how it works out.

You know, I would hate to be a Kahr customer service rep. It's well documented in this forum that Kahrs can and do occasionally have problems as all guns do. Yet I'm sure they are rare and I'm thinking that the vast majority of the complaints Kahr gets are about operator error issues. And somehow, over the phone or by email, the customer service rep has to differentiate between the two --- without alienating the customer and without spending the company's money to ship guns back and forth when it might not be necessary and without needlessly tying up customers' guns. Just sayin'. I'm not gonna be sending in my application...

And I'm certainly not suggesting that your issues are operator error. So keep it in mind that you may indeed need to send the gun in. Kahr will do you right. Meanwhile, have fun ruling out all the other stuff.

[Sharpsburg]

Good luck on your shoot today. Let us know how it works out.

You know, I would hate to be a Kahr customer service rep. It's well documented in this forum that Kahrs can and do occasionally have problems as all guns do. Yet I'm sure they are rare and I'm thinking that the vast majority of the complaints Kahr gets are about operator error issues. And somehow, over the phone or by email, the customer service rep has to differentiate between the two --- without alienating the customer and without spending the company's money to ship guns back and forth when it might not be necessary and without needlessly tying up customers' guns. Just sayin'. I'm not gonna be sending in my application...

And I'm certainly not suggesting that your issues are operator error. So keep it in mind that you may indeed need to send the gun in. Kahr will do you right. Meanwhile, have fun ruling out all the other stuff.

Yes, I acknowledge it could be operator error. But I really focused hard on my grip the last session after the khar rep said it might be shooter fatigue. I have large hands so that could be contributing to the problem. I had a TP45 previously and it shot like a gem with no hiccups of any kind, but it had a longer grip. I got rid of it for this one because I really wanted a pocket gun. Hopefully it will work itself out.

[b4uqzme]

it will --- sorry to be preachy. that's usually revray's department.

[Sharpsburg]

Just got back. Shot total of 7 mags and had no problems with 3 of them. Had FTE with slide failing to stay open and jamming the last shell casing after the last round in mags 1, 6 and 7. And had FTE in the middle of a magazine in mags 4 and 6. No problems of any kind in mags 2, 3 and 5.

I gripped the heck out of the gun with locked elbow most times so I real don't think it's limp wristing. Yesterday and today i completed the prep list. The gun has about 300 rounds through it now and I have racked the slide about 200 times. Next weekend I will try the blazer ammo and have my gunsmith shoot it and see if he has same patterns. If same problems persist, then I think I have no choice but to send to the factory.

I appreciate all your feedback and tips!

[b4uqzme]

Well you are certainly doing the right things. I congratulate your effort and patience. Have you dissasembled and inspected and lubed those offending mags yet? There are reports of simple things like backward springs...and you can always do the follower mod while you are at it. Are they extended rounders? It's encouraging that 3 of the mags run well. Keep at it. I think your plan is a good one.

[JimC]

Have you dissasembled and inspected and lubed those offending mags yet?

Magazines, especially steel ones, tend to run better if they are not lubed internally.
Putting any type of lube inside of a magazine only tends to attract debris more so than a dry one which can cause further malfunctions.
Keeping them clean inside and out is all that needs to be done.

[JERRY]

Sharpsburg, send it back to kahr.

had i known it would take me over 500 rounds, some kitchen table gunsmithing(preping), and some frustration i would have simply sent it back to the company to make it right the second time......

my PM45 runs right now, but it took some doing for it to get that way.... im far from impressed with the PM45. my PM9 however is a jewel.

[gb6491]

I'm hesitant to give advice about a model of pistol that I don't own, but I had a similar issue with my CW45. So, I'd suggest contacting Kahr about the stove pipe issue and asking if they would send you a new extractor.
I modified my Kahr magazines as a fix (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=15669&postcount=3 ), but think a new extractor may have done the trick as well. I rarely use Kahr magazines in my CW45 now and have replaced the extractor, but I've had no further issues when using the Kahr mags or modified Officer's mags.
Regards,
Greg

[wyntrout]

Magazines, especially steel ones, tend to run better if they are not lubed internally.
Putting any type of lube inside of a magazine only tends to attract debris more so than a dry one which can cause further malfunctions.
Keeping them clean inside and out is all that needs to be done.

I clean out the tubes until dry and then lightly oil just the spring... since it's liable to rust. I just use some oil on my fingers and rub the surfaces of the springs... not dripping or "wet", though. A silicone-impregnated gun cloth can be used if it is applied to the coils inside and out.

Wynn:)

[JimC]

I clean out the tubes until dry and then lightly oil just the spring... since it's liable to rust. I just use some oil on my fingers and rub the surfaces of the springs... not dripping or "wet", though. A silicone-impregnated gun cloth can be used if it is applied to the coils inside and out.

Wynn:)

In nearly 50 years of caring for magazines in both LE and civilian life in semi or full auto anything, I've never had a spring rust when the magazines are properly cleaned after use, especially when used in adverse conditions.

I have seen them fail miserably when the operator just had to lube them and they collected all types of crap that clung to the lubed internals of the magazine!

Yes, wiping down the spring with a silicone cloth does work and that's about as far as I go with any lube in magazines.

I have 1911 magazines that I would dare say are older than some posters here. They have never seen a drop of oil and they run 100%. ;)

Pg. 23 of my PM9 manual says in regard to the magazine...wipe all parts lightly with lubricant moistened cloth before reassembly.

That is about as far as I would suggest anyone going with this.

[Sharpsburg]

I disassembled the mags to make sure they were in the correct way and used compressed air to make sure no debris. I did not lube but have never done that with any mag. 2 of the mags were 6 rounders and three were 5 rounders. I had problems in both the 5 and 6 rounders. I shot 7 mags of ammo through the 5 mags (I reloaded a couple after shooting through them all). I really want this gun to work because it is awesomely accurate and I love the size/power. I will email kahr again tomorrow and let them tell me what they think.

Thanks again all. This is a very helpful forum.