The “Center Mass” Myth and Ending a Gunfight -Triggernometry

[JFootin]

Here is an excellent article by Jim Higgenbotham on surviving a gunfight. He applies a serious reality check to assumptions about “Center Mass” hits and the likely results. There is a short video where he demonstrates what he calls "Dynamic Response." Notice that he carries two 1911s and I'm not sure how many extra magazines. And he might have other weapons on him that you don't see. His research regarding the number of rounds in various calibers that it takes on average and if you're lucky to stop bad guys emphasizes the need for backups and reloads if you want to increase your chances of surviving a gunfight with an armed assailant.

The “Center Mass” Myth and Ending a Gunfight
By Jim Higginbotham

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-center-mass-myth-and-ending-a-gunfight-triggernometry/

[Longitude Zero]

Another interesting point of view from another say lesser known and followed talking heads.

Again the article is "his" opinion and no more or less factual than say Ayoob and others. He really is not positing information that is new just repeating it again.

Thanks for posting JFootin.

[JFootin]

Well, it sounds like he has really researched this stuff and boasts 44 years experience. I didn't post this to counter any training or info from Ayoob or others, but simply as some beneficial info that can be added to one's knowledge base.

[TheTman]

Front Sight Academy suggests 2 to COM, and 1 to the head in the area between the eyebrows and mouth, and close to the nose. The head shot being the coup de grace.

Thanks for posting J. Very good info to consider. And if the perp is on drugs, he may even take more punishment, and still be standing. That's why Front Sight suggests one to the face, to disable the lower part of the brain that controls bodily functions like breathing, and keeping the heart beating.

[knkali]

good post Jfootin. reminds us that this isn't the movies. A com with a .45 isn't going to send the guy backward off his feet and no possibility of getting up. Just isn't reality.

Cant imaging getting hit with several 223s and still in the fight. Wow

[JFootin]

That's my thinking, Tman. But my ability to land a head shot w.t.s. is h.t.f. is within 10 feet and with some luck. I wouldn't want to waste bullets even trying it at 21 feet. And at <10 feet from a gun shooting b.g., I might just be doing spray and pray. I wish things were different, but with my partially paralyzed wrists and hands and inability to balance without support make anything better than c.o.m. an unrealistic hope. We are talking about a situation where bullets are flying in both directions, which I sincerely pray I'll never experience. A lot of difference between that and just trying to prevent a bodily attack from some raging brute, which simply revealing you are armed will do a lot of the time and a head shot would be hard to defend. I think his dismissal of trying head shots when he can shoot as well as he does is something worth noting.

[JFootin]

good post Jfootin. reminds us that this isn't the movies. A com with a .45 isn't going to send the guy backward off his feet and no possibility of getting up. Just isn't reality.

Cant imaging getting hit with several 223s and still in the fight. Wow

It sure would be nice if we could pull a 50 caliber machine gun out of nowhere to make absolutely sure that a shooter won't get up ( :) ), but the much wiser solution is situational awareness so that we are less likely to put ourselves in a situation where we are being shot at.

[JohnR]

good post Jfootin. reminds us that this isn't the movies. A com with a .45 isn't going to send the guy backward off his feet and no possibility of getting up. Just isn't reality.

Cant imaging getting hit with several 223s and still in the fight. Wow
.223/5.56 as a military round isn't meant to kill a human being DRT, just to take a soldier out of combat, or so I've read on the interwebz. Gotta be nice so he can go home to mom and dad alive. As I understand it, 9x19 was meant for the same thing. .45ACP, on the other hand, was designed to stop a charging Muslim jihadist.

I have to agree with one thing he said, that you can't just squeeze off two to the body, one to the head, and think you're done, as many of us do in IDPA and such.

[Chuck54]

Col. Charlie Beckwith survived a gut shot with a 50 !

[JFootin]

If I had some good cover, I think a carbine or rifle - even in 22 lr - would be more trustable to deliver head shots, even at greater distances.

[muggsy]

There are exceptions to every rule. Two shots center mass will stop most if not all. My old man told me not to draw the gun unless I was going to use it and to keep pulling the trigger until all movement has stopped. Those are words to live by.

[Longitude Zero]

.223/5.56 as a military round isn't meant to kill a human being DRT, just to take a soldier out of combat, or so I've read on the interwebz. As I understand it, 9x19 was meant for the same thing.


Bith are correct. the 223/5.56 was meant to wound and not kill. So to was the design of the FMJ 9mm. The reasoning being brutally simple. It only takes two for a burial detail in a combat zone. To treat the wounded takes many, many more highly trained individuals that drain resources.

Unless you hit an artery two to COM beats 30 or 40 to the extremities.

[Planedude]

Center of mass shots are trained into folks for one reason, it is the shot 90% of folks can pull off under stress.
In 95% of SD situations, a couple of center hits on a BG will make them change their minds on continuing evil acts. In the other 5% of cases, better be pretty good at headshots.
Most likely different percent's are true in armed combat and with police officers during arrests as the BGs there start at a different frenzy.
Again, my opinion from study of cases, most BGs quit after a couple of solid hits. They came to rob, steal or beat... that getting shot bit was not in the planning.
That said, awareness keeps out of more trouble than guns.

Thanks for posting the link.

[pappy42]

There are "shootins" and there are "gun fights". From personal experience; I'd say that in the case of the latter, lucky is good.

Shot placement is like real estate; location, location, location.

[JFootin]

You're right, Pappy. Also, knowledge and training can make that "luck" more likely. :) I am counting on having more of these than the average violent criminal.

[pappy42]

You're right, Pappy. Also, knowledge and training can make that "luck" more likely. :) I am counting on having more of these than the average violent criminal.

Knowledge, training and experience made me lucky.

[JohnR]

You're right, Pappy. Also, knowledge and training can make that "luck" more likely. :) I am counting on having more of these than the average violent criminal.

You'll (and we'll) need it, 'cause what they lack in training, they make up for in evil.

[wyntrout]

With the increasing use of body armor... even with the BG's... you need to realize the possibility that your opponent(s) won't be dropped with C.O.M. hits... only. Two hits center of mass will definitely affect them, but then you need to go for the head... the hands... the feet... or whatever is available to "distract" them and decrease their freedom of motion. It makes no sense to keep pumping rounds into the C.O.M. if the BG keeps advancing or continuing belligerence. Think Zombies! :eek:

:behindsofa:

Wynn:D

[espresso]

Great read thanks JFootin.
I think articles like this are good in that they remind us that handgun rounds are pretty weak and never think just cuz we get a few goods hits it doesn't mean light out for the bad guy.

[Longitude Zero]

Even rifle rounds are no guarantee either.

[OldLincoln]

Hunters often tell about their hunt in terms that I shot him but had to follow the blood trail to find him. That's with a hunting rifle and appropriate ammo. I have no doubt that if the bad guy stood up straight and didn't shoot back that most could drop him before he could get to you. But try to keep in mind that gun handling is their business and they do practice, maybe with the exception of some seriously messed up addicts.

If you are old enough to remember Muhammad Ali when he first fought Joe Frazer. I thought what the heck is this when Joe came out all bunched over and moved around like a wild boar in heat. Ali was fast but he couldn't land many on Joe's head and those he did were on his forehead which was like amour plate.

That's how you have to figure your bad guy will move. The weakness in their plan is while they move the upper body a lot, they have to keep the lower pretty much planted as a base. Their pelvis and thighs are exposed and if you can land a few in there you might get the spine, blow out a hip or get the femoral artery, any of which will cause them pause. When it's your blood spurting way out there it has an impact and you think more about disengagement than victory.

[Ascham1]

I prefer a min of a 57 mm recoilless rifle however CC is difficult. I will have to keep relying on a 9 MM and a 12 ga for in the home.

[Southerngunner]

Good reading and great info thanks.

[jocko]

whats "center mass"? Just sayin

[leftysixty]

Jocko, center of mass is the middle of your herd of sheep:D

[SlowBurn]

I prefer a min of a 57 mm recoilless rifle however CC is difficult. I will have to keep relying on a 9 MM and a 12 ga for in the home.

M1 Abrams tank for me. Not always handy when you need it though.

[garyb]

Hunters often tell about their hunt in terms that I shot him but had to follow the blood trail to find him. That's with a hunting rifle and appropriate ammo. I have no doubt that if the bad guy stood up straight and didn't shoot back that most could drop him before he could get to you. But try to keep in mind that gun handling is their business and they do practice, maybe with the exception of some seriously messed up addicts.

If you are old enough to remember Muhammad Ali when he first fought Joe Frazer. I thought what the heck is this when Joe came out all bunched over and moved around like a wild boar in heat. Ali was fast but he couldn't land many on Joe's head and those he did were on his forehead which was like amour plate.

That's how you have to figure your bad guy will move. The weakness in their plan is while they move the upper body a lot, they have to keep the lower pretty much planted as a base. Their pelvis and thighs are exposed and if you can land a few in there you might get the spine, blow out a hip or get the femoral artery, any of which will cause them pause. When it's your blood spurting way out there it has an impact and you think more about disengagement than victory.



Good points OldLincoln.
Thanks for sharing the article.

[AIRret]

I would like to point out something else from the video that hasn't been discussed yet and that is, MOVEMENT!
As this instructor was drawing his weapon he was moving to the side. You/we need to be a moving target.
There is a saying that; "you fight the way you train". If you ALWAYS stand still at the range when you practice then that's what you'll do in a fight. Our DNR LEO son has STRONGLY suggested we practice taking a large side step as we are bringing the gun to bear and then firing.
You can even do this at an indoor range from the high ready position. It may look silly
but sooooo what. When I began to work on this I started with a .22 so I could focus on the movement and not be so concerned with the recoil. Plus it allows for less expensive practice while learning a new skill.

[garyb]

I would like to point out something else from the video that hasn't been discussed yet and that is, MOVEMENT!
As this instructor was drawing his weapon he was moving to the side. You/we need to be a moving target.
There is a saying that; "you fight the way you train". If you ALWAYS stand still at the range when you practice then that's what you'll do in a fight. Our DNR LEO son has STRONGLY suggested we practice taking a large side step as we are bringing the gun to bear and then firing.
You can even do this at an indoor range from the high ready position. It may look silly
but sooooo what. When I began to work on this I started with a .22 so I could focus on the movement and not be so concerned with the recoil. Plus it allows for less expensive practice while learning a new skill.






Excellent point AirRet. Movement is one skill that IDPA trains well for. Stations keep the shooters moving, in, out, sideways, diagonals....while shooting, dropping mags, taking cover, etc... "You fight the way you train". Training is everything. If you are not training with movement, :bump2:you become a range statue and will make a very good target.