Another HR 218 (LEOSA) Qual

[JimC]

It's been rather quiet in the LE Forum as of late so I though I would make a current entry.
Today I completed another successful HR 218 qualification with my PM9, 40/40.
Ammo of choice, 12 year ('01) old Win. NATO spec 124 gr. ball.
The PM9 ran great! :D

[Chuck54]

It has been quiet here Jim.

I did my qual the first week of May.

T9= 40/40

G19= 40/40


It was a pleasant day.

[JimC]

I'm currently exercising my right under HR 218 by visiting with family in NJ for a couple of weeks.
No HP ammo of course while I'm here. ;)

[Glock23]

Jersey doesn't allow hollow points?

[JimC]

Jersey doesn't allow hollow points?

Active LE - OK of course.
Retired LE - NO WAY :32:

The NJSP and AG's Office refuse to recognize the 2010 changes to HR 218 that allows for HP ammo by retired LE even where restricted otherwise.

[swilcher7]

Question. I am former LEO with 12 yrs under my belt in PA. I had to "retire" due to having major lower back surgery. I separated from my dept in good standing. I fall under the revised LEOSA. Here's the thing, my dept doesn't issue ID's to separated officers, and my understanding of LEOSA states you have to have one. Does anyone know if there is a way for officers with the same issue to get an ID card to become LEOSA compliant? Thanks for your time!!

[pappy42]

Question. I am former LEO with 12 yrs under my belt in PA. I had to "retire" due to having major lower back surgery. I separated from my dept in good standing. I fall under the revised LEOSA. Here's the thing, my dept doesn't issue ID's to separated officers, and my understanding of LEOSA states you have to have one. Does anyone know if there is a way for officers with the same issue to get an ID card to become LEOSA compliant? Thanks for your time!!

It's been a while since I sat down read the whole thing. But, I think that I recall specific wording about disability separation.

Please don't rely on my failing memory. Research it.

[Bawanna]

My uncle went thru something similar. He went out on disability and their attitude was if you can't carry a gun for us you can't carry a gun for yourself.
It's been so long I don't recall what he did to resolve the issue or if he ever did.

[JimC]

Question. I am former LEO with 12 yrs under my belt in PA. I had to "retire" due to having major lower back surgery. I separated from my dept in good standing. I fall under the revised LEOSA. Here's the thing, my dept doesn't issue ID's to separated officers, and my understanding of LEOSA states you have to have one. Does anyone know if there is a way for officers with the same issue to get an ID card to become LEOSA compliant? Thanks for your time!!

Maybe this will help. Taken from:

http://www.fop.net/legislative/issues/hr218/hr218faq.pdf

The most recent amendment to LEOSA further clarifies that former law enforcement officers

employed by the U.S. Department of Defense who may not have been deemed as having “statutory

powers of arrest,” but who do have the authority, under the Uniform Code of Military Justice

(UCMJ), to apprehend suspects, meet the definition of “qualified law enforcement officer.”

Qualified retired law enforcement officers must carry the photographic identification issued by the

agency for which they were employed and have now separated.

An officer separating from service with his agency who has been officially found by a qualified

medical professional employed by the agency to be unqualified for continued service for reasons

related to mental health and, for that reason is not issued the photographic identification described

above and in the statute, is not a qualified retired law enforcement officer as described in 18 USC

926C. Similarly, an officer who has entered into an agreement with the agency from which he is

separating which acknowledges that the officer is not qualified under 18 USC 926C for reasons

related to mental health and for these reasons will not receive or accept the photographic

identification described above is not a qualified retired law enforcement officer as described in 18

USC 926C.

In addition to carrying the photographic identification issued by the agency for which they were

employed or were separated, the qualified retired law enforcement officer must also carry

documentation which certifies that they have met, within the most recent twelve month period, the

active duty law enforcement standards for qualification for a firearm of the same type as the one

they intend to carry.

[swilcher7]

Thank you all for your responses. I think I need to clarify what I meant. I meet the standards required for LEOSA. Here in PA, the state police govern our municipal police officers training. Under their guidelines, your dept has to issue you an ID card as part of the requirements. My dept doesn't issue "separated" officers ID's unless you are a "retired" officer. That's where I have my issue. Are there any LEOs out there, or anyone that knows one that had this same issue pertaining to ID cards, and if so how did they resolve it. I know Federal trumps State, but the ID is a requirement, and that's what holding me up. Thank you all again!!

[JimC]

IMO, if you can't get your old agency to issue you a photo ID, you are unable to meet the requirements of HR 218.
I'm not a lawyer but it seems quite simple to me.
Good luck. :)

[swilcher7]

I am aware of the requirements for LEOSA. My initial question was if there were any other officers or anyone knows of any other officers that are going through the same thing, and if so did they know of any other way(s) to get the required ID. Just me thinking out loud here, but you would think being this is a Federal law, that they would maybe come up with a universal ID card for all officers who qualify, and require your dept to sign off on it. But we all know that's not going to happen. I think it stinks because there are probably quite a few brother officers out there who may be having the same issue. I was and still am proud of my years "on the job," unfortunately, my lower back issues required me to be "put on the shelf" so to speak.

[Dogman]

You might try having a sit down with the Chief or who ever the powers may be on your former dept. about changing the policy.
Go over LEOSA with them, explain to them that there is no liability on the dept. This seems to be a concern to many uninformed Chiefs/Dept's.
I had the same problem, except that my former dept. won't even issue a retirement Id to me when I retired. Chief said there was no requirement to do so. (We weren't drinking buddies)
Anyway to make a long story short, I spoke with the town council president several times. (Chief won't even answer my requests for an appointment). Provided him with info on LEOSA, showed him where others had been issued retirement Id's. He ended up telling me that it really was up to the Chief of Police. I got ahold of one of my clients who use to be a Federal prosecutor, he took the case and after getting the run around and BS answers he filed a Federal lawsuit against the Chief and Dept. About two weeks before it was going to go to court the case was settled out of court.
Do understand there is nothing in LEOSA that requires a dept. to issue a retirement ID.
I go qualify again in October. The Chief was replaced about six months after the case was settled.
Good luck.

[JimC]

Do understand there is nothing in LEOSA that requires a dept. to issue a retirement ID.

This along with the fact there is no requirement in LEOSA that they qualify you either.

From what I understand, my old department in NJ only qualifies a certain few retired ranking officers, I left prior to the implementation of HR 218.

[Dogman]

This along with the fact there is no requirement in LEOSA that they qualify you either.

From what I understand, my old department in NJ only qualifies a certain few retired ranking officers, I left prior to the implementation of HR 218.

Retirees don't have to qualify with their former dept. We can qualify with our former dept., by the state we live in or by any dept. in the state we live in if the state doesn't have anything set up to qualify retirees.
One thing you might do is speak with a rep. from the FOP and see if they would help you if you do have a sit down with the Chief.
With my case the state FOP rep. in my area was going to be a witness for me. Contact your state reps. and have a sit down with them, see if they will introduce state bills that require depts. in your state to issued retirement Id's to officers that meet LEOSA requirements. Here is Indiana's, it isn't the best and doesn't seem to be up to date but at least they are trying. IC 35-47-15-4

[JimC]

Retirees don't have to qualify with their former dept. We can qualify with our former dept., by the state we live in or by any dept. in the state we live in if the state doesn't have anything set up to qualify retirees.
One thing you might do is speak with a rep. from the FOP and see if they would help you if you do have a sit down with the Chief.
With my case the state FOP rep. in my area was going to be a witness for me. Contact your state reps. and have a sit down with them, see if they will introduce state bills that require depts. in your state to issued retirement Id's to officers that meet LEOSA requirements. Here is Indiana's, it isn't the best and doesn't seem to be up to date but at least they are trying. IC 35-47-15-4

I understand that, I was trying to keep it brief.
I don't qualify with my former NJ dept., I qualify with a Sheriff's Dept. here in FL!
Bottom line, if a department doesn't want to issue a retired ID, they don't have to.

[swilcher7]

In PA, it's not required by the Municipal Police Officers Education and Training Commission (MPOETC) for your department to qualify you. The have a list of certified firearms instructors who you can choose to qualify you. I have been thinking about talking to the Chief of my department, as well as the Mayor. I was born and raised in the town where I worked, so I know quite a few people. I'll say this again, it would be nice if there was a Federal ID card for all officers who qualified under LEOSA. I think this would help with alot of fellow officers whose department doesn't issue IDs.

[swilcher7]

DOGMAN, thanks alot for your response. I was born and raised where I worked. I also volunteered with the fire company, as well as working with the local EMS service, so I know a few "higher ups." But you know how some of the politicians can be. If one person doesn't like or support you, look out. The Mayor there was also a member of our fire company, and I left the department on good terms, so I don't think I will have a problem with them. Now the council there is a whole different story. A few there seem to think they could tell me how to do my job without any formal training...(Rolling eyes..) But I'll give it a shot and hopefully it will work out. Thanks again.

[Longitude Zero]

Bottom line, if a department doesn't want to issue a retired ID, they don't have to.

For many this is the rub right here. Frankly I do not want the "G" telling any department they MUST issue a retirement ID. Fortunately mine always has issued them.

[swilcher7]

Do you think that's right?? I sure as hell don't. I'm gonna put my life on the line for you for 20+ years, and after I retire you shake my hand and tell me see ya and good luck. I know your department doesn't have to issue a "separated" officer an ID, but a RETIRED officer should be issued one, no ifs, ands, or buts about that!!!!

[swilcher7]

Again, just me thinking out loud here. Your home state issues the same type of state Id/drivers license to everyone who has one. Why can't theycome up with and issue the same type of ID to anyone who qualifies and meets the requirements of LEOSA???

[Longitude Zero]

Because you can get a CCW virtually anywhere in the US IMHO just get your CCW and go on down the road. The decision to issue a retired ID should always rest with the agency.

[JimC]

Because you can get a CCW virtually anywhere in the US IMHO just get your CCW and go on down the road. The decision to issue a retired ID should always rest with the agency.

I travel to NJ from FL twice a year to visit with family there. I have a FL CCW as well as my HR 218 cert. NJ recognizes NO CCW permits from ANY states so, HR 218 is my only option there.

Not going to NJ is also not an option. I just returned after spending two weeks there and carried any time I felt it necessary. ;)

As far as I know, I've been retired 16 years now, my former department only issues retired IDs to those who actually retire.

[Longitude Zero]

As far as I know, I've been retired 16 years now, my former department only issues retired IDs to those who actually retire.

True. If you resign one day short or retirement IMHO you are not entitled to retirement ID. You have to officially do a full career and retire to avail yourself of that privilege. On my dept if you do not officially retire under the definition set by the state pension board it is tough luck.

[JimC]

True. If you resign one day short or retirement IMHO you are not entitled to retirement ID. You have to officially do a full career and retire to avail yourself of that privilege. On my dept if you do not officially retire under the definition set by the state pension board it is tough luck.

Exactly and that time period is 25 years in NJ for a full pension.

My former department once put out a "retired" list. That list included former members who chose to go onto other LE careers. They were NOT retired from the PD, they quit. It was later corrected to include only actual retirees.

We also had a couple on what we call the "rubber gun squad". They receive a medical pension from the State of NJ :rolleyes: but they are not retirees.

[Longitude Zero]

Exactly and that time period is 25 years in NJ for a full pension.

Here in OK aka the Sooner Nation a full career for retirement purposes is 20 years.

[swilcher7]

Because you can get a CCW virtually anywhere in the US IMHO just get your CCW and go on down the road. The decision to issue a retired ID should always rest with the agency.


I do have my CCW permit, had it since I turned 21. I'll say this again, I asked if anyone here is going through the same issue as I am or knows someone who is also, and what was the outcome, if any. I am very aware of what LEOSA states, read it start to finish. I didn't have too many options when I separated from my agency. I was in need of major back surgery in 2009 and I'm still not doing fairly any better. And unfortunately my issues were not because of any injury in the line of duty, so I was SOL so to speak. I myself don't think I should have to go state to state to apply for CCW to cross state lines. I am aware of some states recognizing other states CCW. I just thing a little more though could have been applied when writing LEOSA so as to benefit all officers eligible.

[swilcher7]

Here in OK aka the Sooner Nation a full career for retirement purposes is 20 years.

Retirement here in PA varies via your contract. With some departments its 20 years and age 50, while others are 25 years and age 50/55.

[Longitude Zero]

In OK it is a straight 20 years no matter your age. At 20 years it is 50% of your base salary, not including overtime calculated/averaged over your last 30 months of employment.

We also has a "Louisiana Plan" and Deferred Comp. If you are smart you can retire at or above 100% salary.

[Eyechop]

You might try having a sit down with the Chief or who ever the powers may be on your former dept. about changing the policy.
Go over LEOSA with them, explain to them that there is no liability on the dept. This seems to be a concern to many uninformed Chiefs/Dept's.
I had the same problem, except that my former dept. won't even issue a retirement Id to me when I retired. Chief said there was no requirement to do so. (We weren't drinking buddies)
Anyway to make a long story short, I spoke with the town council president several times. (Chief won't even answer my requests for an appointment). Provided him with info on LEOSA, showed him where others had been issued retirement Id's. He ended up telling me that it really was up to the Chief of Police. I got ahold of one of my clients who use to be a Federal prosecutor, he took the case and after getting the run around and BS answers he filed a Federal lawsuit against the Chief and Dept. About two weeks before it was going to go to court the case was settled out of court.
Do understand there is nothing in LEOSA that requires a dept. to issue a retirement ID.
I go qualify again in October. The Chief was replaced about six months after the case was settled.
Good luck.


Dogman please post the caption or the docket number that the suit was filed under or the law firm that handled the case ? Same problem, NJ chief handing out retirement creds to only the ones that meet his "standard". Thanks in advance ..