View Full Version : Ammo Chambering Problem
Thumb
07-07-2013, 07:56 PM
Went to the range today with my Kahr CM 40 S&W with some new ammo and right off the bat I could not chamber even the first round. I figured oh no, just like the PMC ammo that wouldn't chamber. So I reloaded one of the 6 round mags with Winchester ammo that has always worked and they would not chamber either. I'm thinking what the heck is going on. Maybe the mag went bad so I tried another 6 round mag and got the same results. I then put my 5 round mag in and had no problems at all. Now I'm thinking, both my 6 round mags went bad at the same time?
Anyway, when I got home and started looking at the rounds that would not chamber(about 10 in all), I noticed each one had a deep scratch on the casing. So now I'm wondering, is there something wrong with the gun? I have put almost 200 rounds through it so far so it's still pretty new and just starting to break in.
Any thoughts or suggestions? Can we post pics here? I have a pic of the scratch on the casing.
DeaconKC
07-07-2013, 08:25 PM
Without being there, it sounds like you have some grit in the chamber. When you cleaned and lubed it last, if you had a little extra oil in the chamber it can act as a magnet to grit. Since firearms are built with tolerances in the thousandths of an inch, a tiny piece of something will cause the jam you are describing. Really scrub the chamber and barrel with a good spray cleaner and make sure it is spotless. Then try to chamber a round.
b4uqzme
07-07-2013, 08:49 PM
here's a recent thread with a similar problem? you might find something helpful in there --- at least about the scratch... good luck wish I could be of more help.
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=19589
Thumb
07-07-2013, 09:08 PM
Thanks for that recent thread, the scratch is almost identical. I'll take down the Kahr tonight and check everything and also check the mags in question. Here's a pic of my scratch. http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/MyOwnStuff/scratch-a_zps81cc4657.jpg
Ikeo74
07-07-2013, 09:32 PM
Why does the picture look like the case is crimped at the top? It that just the lighting or is the case bent? Can you post a picture of the complete case from top to bottom?
Thumb
07-07-2013, 10:32 PM
It's just the lighting but I double checked just too make sure. Here's another pic of the same round.http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/MyOwnStuff/scratch_zpsab4b145f.jpg
Thumb
07-07-2013, 10:57 PM
OK, I found out what is making the scratches, it's the magazine itself when loading it, it rubs up against the metal flange on the right side, the side that the flange is sort of angled down . All of my mags are like that so I guess that's the way they were made.
Maybe I can file down the sharp edge a bit on that side. Another thing I just found out is if I download the mags with 5 instead of 6 rounds, then they will chamber. Could it be that the springs are already starting to wear out after about 80 rounds through each of them?
Ikeo74
07-07-2013, 11:27 PM
New springs are extra tight until they get limbered up. They do not wear out that quick. When you load them to max capacity it puts extra upward pressure on the slide and that drag will cause miss feeds. After several hundred rounds the springs will wear in and be more limber. That will let you to load back to max capacity. Until then load all mags 1 short and the problem will go away.
Tilos
07-08-2013, 12:46 AM
Removing the sharp edge(s) from the mag lips and polish them with a dremel felt bob with some car polish has worked for me.
Wait that sound funny:rolleyes:
Thumb
07-08-2013, 01:24 AM
I just happen to have those tools so I'll see what I can do but unlike you, I will not tell anyone Tilos :)
Ikeo74, I understand what you are saying about new mags and I agree but why would they have worked when fully loaded for the first month and start doing this now? Doesn't make sense. :confused:
hardluk1
07-08-2013, 06:38 AM
Dirty gritty mag internals from shooting them. break the mags down and detail them just like the handgun. Radius the followers edges and lube and wipe dry.
CharlieW
07-08-2013, 10:23 AM
Also CM40's are notorious for broken magazine followers -- you will want to check them when you are detailing the mags. Good Luck!
Tilos
07-08-2013, 10:36 AM
If the stamping die was dull those feeding lip surfaces can/could be very rough.
Mass produced items can usually benefit from some "detailing/hand work".
With metal magazines, the inner corner of the lips is a critical surface for functionality, but gets the least amount of exposure in the batch tumbling method used for dedurring/polishing.
Besides polishing is a good way to show love for your stuff, just don't over do it.
It's embarrassing for me to admit, I'm taking a risk here, but I think it's a man thing...can I say that:confused:
Thumb
07-08-2013, 12:41 PM
I'll detail the mags and check for any problems.
Thanks for the help guys, it's much appreciated.
jocko
07-08-2013, 12:52 PM
polish under the feed lips, I wouldbe hesitant to tell u to bend the lips. they are desiged the way they are, but polish the hell out of the bottom of the feedlips and u will be very surprised. Listen tot he comments form these guys,They IMO are right on the money. New springs take alittle while to take their designed set, Check ur followers to see that none are busted. Use the slide lock lever to load that first round. IMO do not try to anual hand rack that first round until u and te gun get well aqcquainted. Kahrs are tight and hand racking can be an issue for some but after a few hundred rounds the guns loosesn up gets very smooth andu get more accustomed to the gun to and then u willbe able to hand rack with ease.....
U did not state when u had these issues if u were hand racking or using the slide lock lever to load that first round. there is a difference..
Thumb
07-08-2013, 01:08 PM
The first time I hand racked. After that I used the slide lock lever which made no difference. Only time it would work is when there were only 5 rounds in the magazine. The 5 round mag does not have this problem for some reason.
I'll let you all know if I find anything or not after I work on the mags which should be sometime later today.
getsome
07-08-2013, 04:32 PM
Hello Thumb, sorry you are having this problem...If I were you I would call Ian at Kahr and ask if he will trade the 6 round mag for a 5 round, I know they have done this for others likely because they know the extended mags are problematic and they are afraid of a lawsuit if the gun malfunctions in a self defence situation....The longer mags are just not reliable and even for range use you will spend more time messing wih the gun rather than shooting....NEVER carry the it for protection with the 6 round mag which is a d@mn shame because that extra round might come in handy in a bad spot....Kahr will likely swap mags with you so you will then have two that will work and if they won't just buy a couple of the 5 rounders and be done with it and have peace of mind the gun will not jam up on you when you least want it to...
Tilos
07-08-2013, 04:41 PM
"I know they have done this for others likely because they know the extended mags are crap and they are afraid of a lawsuit if the gun malfunctioned in a self defence situation"
That seems like a stretch to me, most lawsuits I've heard of are for "accidental discharge".
With the cost of most guns today, I'm sure the mfg'ers have enough liability insurance to cover almost anything.
jmo
getsome
07-08-2013, 04:50 PM
Yea you're right about the lawsuit deal as it would probably be hard to prove why a pistol jammed but they may swap out the mags as a customer service...I really wish Kahr would address all the mag problems with busted followers and extended mags that have chambering issues...Kahr makes such a high quality well made pistol only to have it's image and reputation ruined by on going magazine problems....Kinda like buying an expensive new Cadillac and getting recaps for tires, ruins the overall product IMO....
Thumb
07-08-2013, 07:12 PM
OK, I took one mag apart, polished up the edges, cleaned, lubed, and put it back together and loaded up 6 rounds. Put it into the gun and guess what, it chambered! Not once or twice but 5 times with the 6 rounds in it. I'll do the same to the other one and see if I can make it work also.
DeaconKC
07-08-2013, 07:57 PM
Good for you!
Thumb
07-08-2013, 10:36 PM
I talked to Kahr and they said they would replace them, just send them back with a description. Thing is now if I get the other one to work, I don't know if I want to send them back.
Tilos
07-08-2013, 11:30 PM
Good news, good job:D
Chances are the replacements wouldn't be much better, and now you know what a little detailing can do:cool:
Check out the lips on a glock mag, they are mirror polished via tumbling too, and can be much better heat treated steel because they are inserted in to mold before the composit matterial is injected, just like the rails in the composit framed Kahrs.
Thumb
07-09-2013, 01:35 AM
Well, I detailed the other mag and no go, matter of fact I can't get any of the rounds to chamber in this one. I think I mentioned this before that it was suspicious that both mags did this on the same day at the same time so I decided to strip down the gun and take a close look at it. Looking under a microscope, I think I see the problem but I have no idea what caused it or if it came that way. It looks like there are gouges in the metal and also the plastic is being destroyed. It almost looks like the spring where the slide lock may be bent. I know I was very careful when I did a field strip to clean everything to make sure that the slide lock slid under that spring but I never looked under the microscope before. Something really doesn't look right especially for only having slightly less than 200 rounds through it. Here is a pic of the slide lock that looks like something is scraping it.http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/MyOwnStuff/slidelock_zps9a3c8cdb.jpg
Thumb
07-09-2013, 01:36 AM
Here is a pic of the frame showing the spring and surrounding areas that are being chewed up plus maybe the spring is bent, I don't know?http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/MyOwnStuff/frame_zpsf4490eb0.jpg
b4uqzme
07-09-2013, 06:02 AM
I would recommend you see what Kahr says about your pics. Otherwise just debur, clean and re-lube until you no longer get plastic shavings. I've seen other reports that this is normal break-in wear. Here is also a video ( from a forum member) that explains how to adjust the slide stop spring: http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=c50P7HCAATo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dc50P7HCAATo
If the link doesn't work just google "CW45 slide stop spring adjustment". Might help?
Popeye
07-09-2013, 06:43 AM
As much as I love Kahr pistols, and it pains me to say this. It really does. If your sure it's not user error. Chambering problems with Kahr's it is always a good idea to look at the mags first as the cause of the problems. They are junk and need to be redesigned from the baseplate up. In some older guns, especially older Gen 1 Kel Tec PF9's you needed to look no farther than the feed ramps for feeding problems. Some things are so predictable with certain brands. With Kahr's, unfortunately it's there mags. that cause the majority of there problems in many of there smaller pistols.
Thumb
07-09-2013, 08:19 AM
I sent a picture to Kahr and they said the spring is bent in a little and will send me a new one.
Tilos, I have a Glock also and have had no problems at all after about a 1000 rounds and yes, it seems to run a lot smoother. The Kahr was working great until now except it did not like PMC ammo from the get go but ate up everything else until now.
gb6491
07-09-2013, 09:47 AM
Well, I detailed the other mag and no go, matter of fact I can't get any of the rounds to chamber in this one. I think I mentioned this before that it was suspicious that both mags did this on the same day at the same time so I decided to strip down the gun and take a close look at it. Looking under a microscope, I think I see the problem but I have no idea what caused it or if it came that way. It looks like there are gouges in the metal and also the plastic is being destroyed. It almost looks like the spring where the slide lock may be bent. I know I was very careful when I did a field strip to clean everything to make sure that the slide lock slid under that spring but I never looked under the microscope before. Something really doesn't look right especially for only having slightly less than 200 rounds through it. Here is a pic of the slide lock that looks like something is scraping it.http://i41.tinypic.com/6jilc7.jpg
Here is a pic of the frame showing the spring and surrounding areas that are being chewed up plus maybe the spring is bent, I don't know?http://i43.tinypic.com/seq1kl.jpg
I sent a picture to Kahr and they said the spring is bent in a little and will send me a new one.
Tilos, I have a Glock also and have had no problems at all after about a 1000 rounds and yes, it seems to run a lot smoother. The Kahr was working great until now except it did not like PMC ammo from the get go but ate up everything else until now.
Yeah, that spring is bent pretty good. You can see at the red arrow where it has been rubbing the frame. Here's how an unbent spring looks (you can probably bend yours back into correct shape while waiting for the new one):
http://i42.tinypic.com/rr59xd.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/33o0089.jpg
FWIW, the green arrow points to some gouging that can be cleaned up or left alone, but I'd knock down any corresponding sharp edges on the slide stop. The blue arrow points to some slight gouging most likely caused by not having the slide stop above that area when pushing it into place.
In regards to the slide stop wear, some of that is probably normal wear, but I'd guess some might be because the stop spring was bent and the stop was contacting the slide more than intended (especially if your a lefty and shoot thumbs forward). However, I would check the slide for any burrs or other things that could contribute to that. You could clean up those areas of the slide stop a bit.
A couple of suggestions in regards to the feed issue (especially as it was working before):
The spring may be the culprit. I've played with that spring's tension and position found it can be manipulated to the point it caused feed issues (hand cycled).
Make sure to properly lube the slide stop pin and barrel lug.
Check that the extractor is operating correctly (too much pressure or too little movement can cause feed issues).
BTW, those are very good photos:)
Regards,
Greg
Thumb
07-09-2013, 10:49 PM
Thanks for those tips, I'll see what I can do while I wait for the part. Also thanks for the good words on my pics. I also build 1/25 scale model cars and have learned how to use the macro for getting close up shots of the detailing I do on them.
Thumb
07-10-2013, 09:26 AM
Well, I thought I had every tool known to mankind but when I tried to find something to remove that star screw to take the spring out, the closest thing I have is twice as big. Anyone know what size that is and where I can get it?
getsome
07-10-2013, 09:54 AM
It's a #6 torx and when you put it back in DON'T over tighten it, snug is good because the tupperware will strip and then you got a frame problem...Don't use any loctite on that part....I think I got mine at Lowe's but you may have to look around at an ACE hardware or even a gunshop for one that small as most sets stop at about #10...good luck
gb6491
07-10-2013, 10:19 AM
Well, I thought I had every tool known to mankind but when I tried to find something to remove that star screw to take the spring out, the closest thing I have is twice as big. Anyone know what size that is and where I can get it?
It's a #6 torx and when you put it back in DON'T over tighten it, snug is good because the tupperware will strip and then you got a frame problem...Don't use any loctite on that part....I think I got mine at Lowe's but you may have to look around at an ACE hardware or even a gunshop for one that small as most sets stop at about #10...good luck
getsome is spot on, it's definitely a T6 (Torx) on my CW45 http://www.kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=44744&postcount=25
http://www.lowes.com/pd_239384-16878-60272_?PL=1&productId=1067905
http://www.harborfreight.com/7-pc-mni-star-tamper-proof-key-set-97469.html
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM6158544901P?hlSellerId=15470
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/tools-hardware/hand-tools/husky/6-piece-hex-screwdriver-set-114546.html
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2804135 (http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11221030&kw=torx&origkw=torx&searchId=54864803404)
This is what I have (bought mine at an electronics store):
http://www.amazon.com/Wiha-36392-L-Wrench-Short-Piece/dp/B002QV0FGA/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt
Regards,
Greg
Thumb
07-10-2013, 12:26 PM
Thanks for the tips, especially the no locktite, I was thinking about using the purple for small screws. Since I have all those stores near me, I went to Home Depot since they said they had them in stock.
Got the spring out and was able to straighten it out and put everything back together. I'm going to fire up my air compressor and blow everything out then wipe and lube everything. I'll report back when I get the gun assembled and try some ammo and mags to see if they now work. Keeping fingers crossed.
getsome
07-10-2013, 12:55 PM
Good to hear, those springs bend pretty easily so once you get it strightened out it should be good to go and if the pistol functions correctly I would leave it in and save the new one for a spare....If you happen to bend it again you can leave it in the gun to keep from wearing out the polymer threads and just use a small pair of needle nose pliers to bend it in place...
Once you get a little wear on the pistol it will go together much easier...I found using a small dab of gun grease on the under side of the slide stop where it contacts the spring made reassembly much easier without bending the spring.....The stop once inserted in the hole with the witness marks lined up should slip in at a 3:00 position straight in line with the slide and shouldn't need much force at all to seat home...
Thumb
07-10-2013, 02:11 PM
They must bend really easy because I was very careful when installing the lock to make sure it was under the spring as to not bend it. I never had any problem at all getting the slide lock to go in and never had to push hard. \\Yes, if everything works I'll just leave that one in there and keep the new one as a back-up.
jocko
07-10-2013, 02:27 PM
good idea, u can tweek it back in shape, I always put a dab of greeseon that spring tip and on the little slide lock ub that goes under that spring tip. When u get it in properly u should hear a little snap and that tells u that spring tip has not settled on that small groove on that slide lock lever nub. U can look and see that.
I know that area looks critical to some but if u treat it as an area of more TLC
u will never have any issues. It is easy to bend as u well know but propery installed it will ride right ober that little nub and be good to go. What the forum guys told u though is gospel. don't over tighten that #6 torx or u will be screwed. That little ass screw goes into polymer andnuttin more. snug is good. I have had my PMJ9 for over 5 years with over 32K rounds through it, had the slide off probably 30+ times.I have replaced one slide lock spring due t my getting anxious and careless. they don't wear out, and they work great. Very ingenius when u actually see the two things that little screw does..:Amflag2::Amflag2:
Thumb
07-10-2013, 05:35 PM
Guns back together and eating up ammo again. Well, I haven't gone out to the range yet but it's chambering the ammo with no problems now even with 6 rounds in the mags just like it use to.
Thanks a bunch guys, I appreciate all the help and input from all of you. :yo:
Thumb
07-12-2013, 01:18 PM
Went to the range today and threw about 80 rounds of lead down the range and not one jam or any other problem so I guess I'm back in business. I'll keep a close eye on that spring and make sure it doesn't get bent any more.
Thanks again for all your input, tips and help on this, it's much appreciated.
Oh, I forgot to mention that I used about 4 different brands of ammo also just to make sure.
b4uqzme
07-12-2013, 02:43 PM
thanks for the follow through -- and for keeping your head and heeding all the good advice. Truly the way it is supposed to work. Good job!!
jocko
07-12-2013, 02:51 PM
and also thanks for notloosingur cool for the suggestions these guys gave to you. U listened u surveyed the problem and damn if u didn't fix it to. Kudos to u, so now just hoot the fokker like u stole it......
b4uqzme
07-12-2013, 02:57 PM
is there an echo in here? comes back a little distorted though...:yo:
Thumb
07-12-2013, 04:03 PM
Haha, you guys are great! I learned a long time ago to listen, too bad it was after I graduated from school. :D
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