A tough decision

[ParabellumJ]

Recently there have been a few posts about satisfied Kahr owners trading in their reliable pistols on other models for one reason or another. After reading these threads I started to think about my PM9 which is my summer carry pistol.

I've owned my Kahr for over a year and except for a broken follower in its first range trip (that Kahr quickly fixed) its been 100% reliable. In fact even when the follower broke it still operated without malfunction. I love this little pistol. It's a small, light, quality firearm that carries effortlessly. There is just one problem...me. I can't shoot the damn thing to save my life, and unfortunately saving my life is its whole purpose. I have tried, and tried, and tried to shoot it well but it doesn't seem to be happening for me. I am talking over 1000 rounds and still if pressed to use it in self defense I don't think I could make good shots under stress. I shot 100 more rounds though it today with the same miserable results.

Now I don't claim to be a great shot and I don't expect the Kahr to be a target pistol, but with a Glock or CZ I can put an entire magazine inside a 5 inch circle at 7 yards shooting fast, double taps, or off a draw. Basic defensive shooting. I can do the same with the PM9, but only with slow deliberate fire. To shoot it worth a darn I have to take my time and concentrate, two things I will not be afforded if required to use it in self defense. Shooting the Kahr fast, double taps, or off a draw and I am embarrassed of the result. Again, I love the gun, can't say anything bad about it, but I just can't shoot it.

In addition to the Kahr I also carry a Gen4 Glock 19. I shoot it better than any other gun I own except maybe my CZ 75B. It has been 100% reliable in over 3000 rounds, and would be the last gun I would ever part with. To say I am fond of Glocks is an understatement.

A LGS has a Gen4 G26 in stock I am going to look at tomorrow if I get a chance. I am taking the PM9 along for the ride. At this point I'm not sure which one will come home with me. I know the Glock is bigger in every dimension, heavier, and no where near as easy to conceal, but I also know I can shoot it well. I never pocket carry, always IWB, so the G26 will probably still fit the roll of summer carry. And 10+1 > 6+1. Plus all of my Glock mags work with it (33+1 anyone?). But then there is the cost of replacing the factory Glock sights (hate em) with night sights which i prefer for my carry guns. Decisions, decisions.

All comments and opinions welcome.

[b4uqzme]

Some training from a REVOLVER instructor was a game changer for me. He taught me effective trigger technique. Otherwise, you must choose what is best for you. It's a serious matter. I'm hoping both come home with you. Just cause you deserve it. Good luck.

[hardluk1]

besure you try a baby glock before buying. I liked shooting larger glocks but hated the baby glocks hump even when they added the replaceable back staps.

Then!!

Just decide what you want and buy it. I never did like mixing handguns for carry so maybe the glock is the way to go for you.



Personally if you don't pocket carry the CW9 would have been a waaay better choice but I don't like mixing carry pistols.

[muggsy]

Anyone with with half a brain can learn to shoot a Kahr well. (No offense intended, Jocko.) I can keep fifty rounds from my CM9 in a 5" bull at 30 feet rapid fire. Did just that at the new range in Berea, Ohio last night. I don't have anything against any other make of gun and own many. I don't expect a gun with a short sight radius and coarse sights to perform like a target pistol. I do expect 100% reliability and close range accuracy from my carry pistol and that is exactly what my CM9 gives me. You can't argue with success.

[dkmatthews]

I had a hard time shooting my PM9 until I changed my grip.

I now have a specific grip just for the PM9 that I don't use with any other pistol. It's similar to what we call the interlocking grip in golf (vs. the Vardon grip). I interlock the little finger of my shooting hand between the ring and little fingers of my support hand. This creates a natural support that locks in underneath the magazine of the PM9. I don't have to think about it because the shooting hand little finger doesn't have anywhere to go, anyway.

I switched to this style of grip for target shooting and the difference was tremendous. It took some time to make a good grip from draw, but it gets easier and smoother with practice.

[340pd]

You do have a tough decision. If you have a large number of rounds through your Kahr and are not happy with it's accuracy, I say, trade it. Kahrs have a trigger system that is comparable with DA revolver shooters. Hand size will also have a great effect on how you shoot this type of trigger system. I have large hands and my Kahr PM9 shoots great for me but when handed a S&W Bodyguard 380, I cannot keep it on target, it's grip is just too small for the length of the trigger pull for me. If you are a Glock guy and shoot their trigger system well, you should be very happy with a G26. I have a number of friends that shoot the baby Glocks better than their larger brothers. It would be nice if your LGS had a IWB holster on hand so you could compare your Kahr to the Glock.

[Alfonse]

For me, it wasn't just the trigger. In fact, with probably somewhere around 2k rounds through my PM9, the trigger is very smooth, are quite light. At this point, I can use the trigger as well as on my CZs, which I can shoot the center out of the target with at 10 yards with one 18 round magazine.

I still haven't bonded completely with the Kahr sights. I may change them. The three-dot sights on my CZs or the similar in theory sight on my 686 I can be very accurate, for me, at the range with. I have XS big dots on a couple of pistols too, and I shoot them far better than the PM9 sights, which I tend to be all over the place vertically with.

Dotting the i on the Kahr sights isn't consistent enough for me vertically. The XS sights, the dot kind of rests right on top of the vertical bar, but there is a space on the Kahr sight that is harder for me to be consistent with. I have to use the "points" that are black from the back sight to locate the front sight correctly vertically to do reasonably well at the range.

Anyway, I'll probably change the Kahr sights soon. I have a CT laser on it, so haven't really worried about the sights. It is usually so bright here, that sunshine thing Bawanna, that I can't see the laser at the range. I haven't decided on whether to do a three dot style or an XS style.

So, consider the sights too, not just the trigger. Using the "points" of the rear sight to carefully, and admittedly slowly, line up the front sight finally allowed me to get some reasonable groups at the range. At least that told me what to work on.

[TheTman]

You might have a Range Officer spend some time watching you shoot to see if he can see anything obvious that you are doing with the PM9 to send the shots off target. They've helped me out a couple times and pointed out things I was oblivious too.

[CJB]

Kahr isnt for everyone....no shame in that.

[Popeye]

I loved my PM 9, but I shoot my G26 much better partially because of the size of it, and the trigger which has a much shorter reset than the PM9. It's not a natural pointer for me though, do to it grip angle.
There is no question the guns I shoot the best are 1911's and CZ's especially the PO-1 and 75b. IMO that CZPO-1 just might be the perfect all around 9mm pistol. In my hands that pistol feels more like a body part that I should have been born with than it does a gun.:D

Seriously though ParabellumJ if you do not shoot the PM9 well then maybe just maybe it's not the right gun for you. No one gun fits all.

[ParabellumJ]

So, consider the sights too, not just the trigger. Using the "points" of the rear sight to carefully, and admittedly slowly, line up the front sight finally allowed me to get some reasonable groups at the range. At least that told me what to work on.

I have factory 3 dot night sights on my PM9, don't care for the bar-dot.

[ParabellumJ]

You might have a Range Officer spend some time watching you shoot to see if he can see anything obvious that you are doing with the PM9 to send the shots off target. They've helped me out a couple times and pointed out things I was oblivious too.

I can shoot it fairly well, but only with slow deliberate fire where I concentrate on the trigger pull. As soon as stray from that I am all over the place. The trigger is smooth, but the length of pull is something I obviously have yet to master.

[ParabellumJ]

There is no question the guns I shoot the best are 1911's and CZ's especially the PO-1 and 75b. IMO that CZPO-1 just might be the perfect all around 9mm pistol. In my hands that pistol feels more like a body part that I should have been born with than it does a gun.:D

I have to agree with you on the CZ's. They feel like they were custom built for your hand. Easily my favorite gun to shoot.

[Alfonse]

I have factory 3 dot night sights on my PM9, don't care for the bar-dot.

Yes, I have to say I don't care for the bar-dot much either.

[ParabellumJ]

So I thought it over last night and after much debate decided that, while I like the PM9, if I'm not able to make hits with it when it counts its not the carry gun for me. I paid a visit to my LGS this evening and was offered a fair price on the Kahr towards a trade for the G26. I made the deal and a Gen 4 Glock 26 followed me home. Sad to let the PM9 go, but hopefully she finds a good home. The new addition after a fresh cleaning and lube...

8735

Thanks for the input and for all the valuable advice everyone contributes on this forum everyday. Although I no longer own a Kahr I hope I can still stick around Kahr Talk and give my 2 cents from time to time.

[ltxi]

Best summer, light clothing carry gun for suburban grocery store work continues to be a lw J-frame with std pressure .38 spl. Period.

[b4uqzme]

Enjoy your new pistol. Stick around.

[downtownv]

You might have a Range Officer spend some time watching you shoot to see if he can see anything obvious that you are doing with the PM9 to send the shots off target. They've helped me out a couple times and pointed out things I was oblivious too.

People under estimate an outside observer..... They offer out of the box thinking that may or may not work for you. But if you gain 1 lilte thing to improve your shooting it's worth it.

[b4uqzme]

People under estimate an outside observer..... They offer out of the box thinking that may or may not work for you. But if you gain 1 lilte thing to improve your shooting it's worth it.

Good point. People also sometimes confuse practice with training. Training is learning something often with the help of an experienced trainer. Practice is often just repeating the same old bad habits.

Practice what you have been trained.

[gb6491]

Darn, this talk of a baby Glock has me feeling nostalgic. I need to drag my G27 from it's lair and put some rounds through it. I like it quite a bit, but it's become a safe queen. I bought it during my foray into .40 cal pistols and I still think it one of the better offerings in that caliber. Later, I bought a 9mm top end for it, but found if I was going to carry a 9mm Glock I'd rather carry my G19 than the G27/26 hybrid. To me, the G19 is not that much harder to conceal, has a better sight radius, and 15 rounds in a non-extended magazine (I'm not a fan of extended magazines in pistols). I still like the G19 for some OWB carry, but various Kahrs have taken over the IWB work.
Anyway, good luck to the ParabellumJ and his new Glock.
Regards,
Greg

[muggsy]

Two things concern me. Why did you think that it was necessary to inform us that you had sold your Kahr and of your reasons for selling it? Why did you think that it was necessary to ask our permission to remain on Kahr Talk Website? I personally don't think that either was necessary. Anyone can join Kahr Talk whether they own a Kahr Pistol or not. We have no control of whether you stay or leave. I'm beginning to think that there may be another reason for your openness. Stay, or leave. It shouldn't concern us anymore than if you sold or kept your Kahr.

[dkmatthews]

Muggsy - like Jocko just told someone else who was asking about marks on their barrel hood, "quit lookin for sumpin".

In other words, let sleepin' dogs lie.

[Bawanna]

Is it my imagination or are we drifting towards negative and unfriendly around here?

[JimC]

ParabellumJ,

Best of luck with your new G26. :)
I've never owned a G26 but have shot a few, nice 9mm sub compact pistol.
No secret here that I am a Glock fan. I carried a G19 on duty the last 5 years of my LE career and my G27 off-duty. I still have the G27 and still carry it most of the time.
Even though I have had a few minor problems with my PM9 and the mags which Kahr took care of, I still like it for what it is, a small concealable pistol for those times when something bigger just doesn't work for me.
My PM9 is a good shooting pistol and I shoot it well, I won't be getting rid of it any time soon.
IMO, you made a good choice based on your needs and logic.

[JimC]

Two things concern me. Why did you think that it was necessary to inform us that you had sold your Kahr and of your reasons for selling it? Why did you think that it was necessary to ask our permission to remain on Kahr Talk Website? I personally don't think that either was necessary. Anyone can join Kahr Talk whether they own a Kahr Pistol or not. We have no control of whether you stay or leave. I'm beginning to think that there may be another reason for your openness. Stay, or leave. It shouldn't concern us anymore than if you sold or kept your Kahr.

Lighten up and give the guy a friggin' break!!! He didn't like the way he shot the PM9 and was honest about it and changed.

[JimC]

Is it my imagination or are we drifting towards negative and unfriendly around here?

Only from some. :rolleyes:

[Ronnman]

I've owned about every type of pistol from the major manufacturers including Glock, Colt, Beretta, Sig Sauer, etc, but I have found that Kahr pistols are generally far superior than most others. My most recent purchase was a Kahr PM9 and I have found it to be an excellent choice for a CCH. It's accurate, well made, and above all dependable. One has to remember, it's a self defense weapon, not a target pistol. That being said, it may be worth while to invest some time with a combat pistol instructor to learn about combat shooting and the elements involved. Shoot as many weapons as possible before deciding on which pistol and calibre is best for you then make an informed decision on which gun to buy. As far as your Kahr PM9, I would have other people shoot the little gun to see if they have a similar problem, if so I would suggest sending it back to Kahr for inspection and possible repair. It may be the pistol and not you. Good luck in your search!

[b4uqzme]

Is it my imagination or are we drifting towards negative and unfriendly around here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9AH4vG2wA

[JohnR]

PBJ, I feel almost the same way about my K9. I love the thing and it's a joy to shoot, but unless I take my time and aim, I get a wide group way off the bullseye. I'm combat accurate with it, so I don't mind relying on it for everyday carry, but it frustrates me that I can't master it. I'm sure it can be done, and I've tried different hand-holds and so on.

I generally rotate between the K9 and Officer 1911, so I'm not hurtin' for a weapon. If I did get another compact 9mm I'd probably look at a Shield or XDs9.

[downtownv]

PBJ, I feel almost the same way about my K9. I love the thing and it's a joy to shoot, but unless I take my time and aim, I get a wide group way off the bullseye. I'm combat accurate with it, so I don't mind relying on it for everyday carry, but it frustrates me that I can't master it. I'm sure it can be done, and I've tried different hand-holds and so on.

I generally rotate between the K9 and Officer 1911, so I'm not hurtin' for a weapon. If I did get another compact 9mm I'd probably look at a Shield or XDs9.


I put a set of Williams Firesights red rear/green front and it was a 180 turnaround! they are in Michigan very nice folks got them in the mail in 3 days!
http://www.williamsgunsight.com/gunsights/pistol.htm
Good Luck!

[xsailer]

Is it my imagination or are we drifting towards negative and unfriendly around here?

Sure sounds like it to me. Sometimes you have consider the source, ignore it and drive through.

[ParabellumJ]

Two things concern me. Why did you think that it was necessary to inform us that you had sold your Kahr and of your reasons for selling it? Why did you think that it was necessary to ask our permission to remain on Kahr Talk Website? I personally don't think that either was necessary. Anyone can join Kahr Talk whether they own a Kahr Pistol or not. We have no control of whether you stay or leave. I'm beginning to think that there may be another reason for your openness. Stay, or leave. It shouldn't concern us anymore than if you sold or kept your Kahr.

When I said all opinions were welcome I never expected a troll.

First, I didn't find it necessary to inform anyone. I was sharing my experience with my Kahr pistol. That is the main purpose of this forum, isn't it?

Second, I never asked anyone's permission to remain a member of the forum. I like this forum because a majority of the members are knowledgeable gun owners who are more than willing to share their experiences and opinions in a positive and respectful manner. I will continue to believe this despite your comments.

I have never said a bad word on this forum about Kahr, it's products or its service. Quite the contrary as a matter of fact. I have also never questioned someone's motives for sharing an experience nor found it necessary to insinuate they did so for reasons other than contributing to the forum. Why you find it necessary to do so shows a lack of respect for this forum and its members.

Bottom line is I replaced my Kahr with a Glock because I shoot the Glock better. Nothing else. Move on.

[leftysixty]

In most cases a person that shoots a double action revolver well will have no problem shooting a Kahr pistol well. That being said, it is more important to be able to shoot well with what you carry. If that means Glock, CZ, or whatever, so be it!

Go for it, and stay safe!!