Talk me out of it (or not)

[bxojr]

New guy here ... both new to KahrTalk and a relatively new shooter. I bought my M&P 9 a couple of months ago, and I've shot about five matches (mostly IDPA).

My CCW permit is in the works, and I've started shopping around for a carry pistol. The M&P Shield was the natural front runner because it's similar to my main gun, but there are a couple of things I don't like about it: it has a thumb safety, and it's a bit larger than I'd like for a carry gun.

Meanwhile, I've fallen in love with the Kahr CM9. I like the size, the people who have it mostly seem to love it, and I even like the no-frills styling! I dry-fired one in the store and expected to hate the long DAO trigger pull, but after a couple of minutes it really grew on me. "I could get used to this," I said to myself.

But here's my concern. I can be pretty accurate with my M&P when I go slow, but even with that gun I've had accuracy problems because of its heavy trigger (I've installed an Apex trigger kit to lighten the trigger pull). I'm worried that, especially as a new shooter, I'm just asking for trouble if I buy a carry gun that's so different from the gun I'm used to.

On the other hand ... if I really like the Kahr, I'm more likely to shoot it a lot, and I wouldn't mind putting in the time to practice and learn my way around that DAO trigger. And I wonder whether mastering a longer, heavier trigger would make me a better shooter overall. I know that many people are able to be very accurate with the Kahr, so I know it's possible.

Any opinions on whether I'd be making a mistake to buy the CM9, as a new shooter whose experience thus far is entirely with an M&P?

[Alfonse]

You're call. You articulate the tradeoffs very well. I love my Kahr.

[Bawanna]

I agree. Sometimes being new can be a good thing so it's easier for you to adapt to new things.

I have no doubt you'd figure it out and do well with it but there's advantages to similar platforms.

[Popeye]

I have a younger friend who bought a CM9 and it took him about a hundred rounds through it to get used to the gun and trigger. Now he is absolutely deadly with that thing. He is the best shot I've ever seen using a Kahr CM9 .
His CM9 is 100% stock but for some reason that gun just works for him.
Good Luck.

[TheTman]

I've found with a little practice, I can get used to about any trigger. I usually take several types of pistols to the range, SA, DAO, SA/DA and shoot all of them. I try to be familiar with a variety of triggers, and not just get stuck on one type.
The choice is up to you. If you want something more similar to the M&P, maybe a Shield would workout better for you, I don't know, never shot one, just thinking since they were both S&W products the trigger might be closer to the M&P trigger.

[bxojr]

Ha! You guys are no help. :-) Not gonna make my decision for me, huh?

I'm reassured that do at least seem to understand the issues correctly. I guess I need to decide what my priorities are. If I just want a carry gun that I can reliably use from day one, the CM9 might not be the best choice for me. But if I want to learn something new and broaden my horizons, it might be a good choice.

I do like the idea of being able to pick up lots of different guns and shoot them all, rather than being too much of a specialist. And I like to learn new things.

Guess I gotta think about this. Thanks for the input!

[Bawanna]

Ha! You guys are no help. :-) Not gonna make my decision for me, huh?

I'm reassured that do at least seem to understand the issues correctly. I guess I need to decide what my priorities are. If I just want a carry gun that I can reliably use from day one, the CM9 might not be the best choice for me. But if I want to learn something new and broaden my horizons, it might be a good choice.

I do like the idea of being able to pick up lots of different guns and shoot them all, rather than being too much of a specialist. And I like to learn new things.

Guess I gotta think about this. Thanks for the input!

Couple of points worth noting-
Specialist are very dangerous people. " Beware the man that owns only one gun, he most likely knows how to use it. I disagree with this statement "If I just want a carry gun that I can reliably use from day one, the CM9 might not be the best choice for me."
I think it would be a perfect carry gun following its break in and proving of itself. The size allows it to always come along, very important for a carry gun.

There are many plus's to Tmans plan as well, running different styles and platforms is a plus if you use them periodically and especially if you stick with your everyday carry all the time and use the others for range, etc.

I too have a few different operating systems but try to stay consistent in my carry wardrobe. A 1911 on hip and a PM45 on ankle. I thought this would be a terrible combination at first but it works actually quite well.
Trigger obviously way different but other than that nothing different really.
I'm conditioned to thumb the safety down on the 1911, if I do the same thing on the PM45 it's not a deal breaker that there isn't one, I'm still ready if need be.
I also shoot both every range visit at least a mag or two, first thing I do every range visit. Then go about whatever the plan for that day happens to be.

[getsome]

Hi bxojr, welcome to Kahrtalk....The looooong but butta smooth trigger pull takes a little getting use to but isn't that different from a revolver...I had to change my normal trigger finger position and went to a first joint pull rather than finger tip like I use on any other pistol......I have a PM40 which is the same size as a CM9 and the gun being so small required a different trigger pull (for me) in order to get any accuracy out of it...

In your current situation ask yourself how you intend to carry...I jeans pocket carry my PM40 but you can't do that with a Shield, it's too big and you will have to IWB carry to CCW..I hate IWB carry but pocket works great for me...

I've handled a Shield but never fired one, the dry fire was pretty stiff IMO...My go to war gun is a M&P .40 full size and it's trigger was pretty gritty at first and I thought about the Apex trigger deal but didn't and just shot it about 300 times and the trigger pull got much smoother and more to my liking so I left it alone....

When the Shield came out I wanted to like it real bad but after seeing it I realized it wasn't for me...As an off duty or back up gun in a IWB or ankle holster it would be great but like the CW40 I traded for my current PM40 it was too big to pocket carry...

Selling points for the CM9:
1. Good price for a nice CCW pistol
2. Smaller than a Shield if you pocket carry
3. Excellent trigger out of the box
4. Great Customer Support from the factory

Selling points for a Shield:
1. It's a S&W and you are familiar with the pistol
2. Good price
3. Reliability out of the box with any ammo
4. Great Customer Support from the factory

Go rent a CM9 and put 100 or so rounds through it and you will know what to do, either you will fall in love and be glad you didn't go with the Shield without trying a Kahr first or you will hate the Kahr trigger and buy a Shield and learn to shoot it...Shooting a pistol will answer the question better than a thousand opinions from a gun forum...Good luck and let us know what you decide to do....

[bxojr]

All good food for thought.

I'm not sure about pocket carry, but I'd like the option, and yeah, that's one thing I know I'd give up with the Shield.

And although the Shield's trigger is a lot like my M&P fullsize, the presence of the thumb safety is a significant difference. The way I see it, I'd have to retrain with either gun -- whether it's to train on a DAO trigger, or train with a thumb safety.

I wish I could find a place to rent a CM9. Maybe I can find someone who has one (or a PM9) and borrow it.

[getsome]

Most any good size range should have a CM9 or PM9 to rent, they aren't that rare...I ALWAYS recomend that someone rent and shoot at least a 100 rounds through any pistol they are unfamiliar with before a purchase....IMHO one of the most important things about learning to shoot a gun is, "does it feel right in my hand"?....The gun must be comfortable and feel natural in your hand and if it doesn't it will be almost impossible to ever learn to shoot it well and with confidence...

[Bawanna]

What part of North Carolina are you in? We have people all over back there, might be able to link up with one of them for a show and tell range visit.

[bxojr]

What part of North Carolina are you in? We have people all over back there, might be able to link up with one of them for a show and tell range visit.

Central NC, the greater Raleigh/Durham area. The only range where I have a membership doesn't rent guns. There are a few others around, but I don't know what they have.

I believe a friend of a friend has an MK9. Not the same thing, but that might be good enough for me to see if I can adjust to the trigger. I might see if I can arrange to try that one out after a match or something.

[Bawanna]

Is DKMatthews in that neck of the woods? Earth to DK, come in DK.

Jfootin? I don't recollect exactly where he's at.

The MK would be fine, other than a slight weight difference it's the same trigger.

[muggsy]

If you really want someone to make the decision for you, I'll do it. Buy the Kahr. :) Seriously, it's a decision that only you yourself can make. I shoot D/A and S/A guns equally well, but never could get used to the D/A-S/A guns. If you train diligently with the gun you carry you will master it. The light weight, small size and smooth trigger aside, what I really like about the Kahr is the fact that it's a no brainer point and shoot gun. Under stress fine motor skills go by the wayside. I only have to clear, point and fire my Kahr pistols and that makes a big hit with me. Remember, the only one you have to please is you.

[bxojr]

If you really want someone to make the decision for you, I'll do it. Buy the Kahr. :) Seriously, it's a decision that only you yourself can make. I shoot D/A and S/A guns equally well, but never could get used to the D/A-S/A guns. If you train diligently with the gun you carry you will master it. The light weight, small size and smooth trigger aside, what I really like about the Kahr is the fact that it's a no brainer point and shoot gun. Under stress fine motor skills go by the way side. I only have to clear, point and fire my Kahr pistols and that makes a big hit with me. Remember, the only one you have to please is you.

I like your thinking. :)

Seriously, you summed it up: what I want in a 9mm carry gun is small size, simple point-and-shoot operation, and safety (but not an external safety). As nice as the Shield is, it fails my criteria -- it's too big, and I'd have to learn to use the thumb safety. There are other guns that do meet my criteria on paper (like the Beretta Nano), but I don't like them as much as the Kahr.

Basically what it comes down to is this: if I can master the Kahr, then I think it will be the perfect carry gun for me. I just have to satisfy myself that I can master it. Honestly, I'm close to just buying one, with the knowledge that I might turn around and sell it in six months if I can't make it work. They do seem to hold their value well!

But I'll try to see if I can find one to try out first.

[AFDoc]

I'm confident that with your apparent drive to succeed, you'll master the Kahr setup and do just fine. I debated a PM9 for a year...love it and wish I hadn't waited. Good luck.

[b4uqzme]

Good luck. You have the right mindset. Although you will get nothing but bias from me. I fell in love with the Kahr trigger right off. Even better than the revolvers I was accustomed to. My brother in law has the shield 9mm as his carry. He shoots it very well but I could never get warm and fuzzy about it.

[kwh]

Should you ever come to Hickory, let me know. You can shoot my Kahr CM9, we will go to the Springs Road Shooting Range. For what it is used for, close in defense, I do not believe you will have any problems. Target shooting at longer range over 15 yards may take a little practice. Do you have a double action revolver you can practice with? Kahr's trigger is smoother and lighter than a DA revolver IMHO. CM9 is my EDC front pocket. Occasionally I go to Raleigh.

[muggsy]

Damn, I may have to change my handle to, "The Kahr Salesman". :)

[joseph simeone]

The trigger is so smooth that you don't notice the longer pull, especially at close range defensive drills.

[340pd]

I apologize for being redundant because I have posted this before. I own the Shield (with Apex sear) and a Kahr PM9. Both have been 100% reliable.
I am a pretty good shot with DA guns and have shot hammerless snubbies forever. My Kahr is like shooting a S&W revolver with the best trigger job in the world. If you can successfully operate a trigger system like that, you will love a Kahr. The CM/PM series is substantially smaller than the Shield. The safety of the Shield is a non factor for me. Leave it on or off as you choose. One benefit for the Shield safety is the fact the gun can be loaded and unloaded while in the safe mode.

All in all, I can shoot the Kahr just as well if not better than my Shield. If I had to give one of them up, the Kahr would stay hands down. That longer smoother trigger just seems to allow me to get on target with followup shots more effectively.

[dkmatthews]

Is DKMatthews in that neck of the woods? Earth to DK, come in DK.

Jfootin? I don't recollect exactly where he's at.

The MK would be fine, other than a slight weight difference it's the same trigger.

Sorry, Colonel! I don't know how I missed this thread!

For the OP, bxojr, I'm just down the road from you in Concord. I've got a membership at a private range in Salisbury, which is a little closer to you. Let me know if you want to meet up. I'm always looking for an excuse to go shooting.

[bxojr]

For the OP, bxojr, I'm just down the road from you in Concord. I've got a membership at a private range in Salisbury, which is a little closer to you. Let me know if you want to meet up. I'm always looking for an excuse to go shooting.

I just might take you up on that! Salisbury is only about a 90-minute drive from my house. And I'm with you on excuses to go shooting, especially if it means trying out a new gun.

[Bawanna]

Why do I feel like a damn matchmaker. I hope that works out for both of you. We got people all over the country and it's nice when stuff like this works out.

Maybe I should think of a catchy site title. "bawanna's hook ups". Less dates, less marriages, more unconditional fooling around. First 50 rendevous free!

[bxojr]

Maybe I should think of a catchy site title. "bawanna's hook ups". Less dates, less marriages, more unconditional fooling around. First 50 rendevous free!

I was just thinking, "Man, Kahr people seem to be a really nice bunch!" But now this is getting weird. Suddenly I'm starting to feel uncomfortable... :)

[dkmatthews]

Easy there, Colonel! Don't go off half-cocked! I'm not in need any extra hookin' up, my man! My best girl wouldn't take too kindly to that, and she's as well armed as I am!

[Bawanna]

So in summary your saying my new venture is a flop and I suck as an entrepreneur?

Do I understand you correctly?

bxojr, don't be uncomfortable, we're not wrong we're just different.

I didn't know DK had a best girl, my information was faulty.

[bxojr]

Well, Bawanna, your little scheme worked. I just got back from my first date with a Kahr pistol. Well, actually, several pistols ... dkmatthews brought his collection and was kind enough to let me try them out. Of course I was particularly interested in the PM9, since it's so similar to the CM9 I'm considering.

The verdict? Given that this was my first time ever shooting a subcompact pistol, and my first time ever on a DAO trigger, I'm not complaining:

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/bxojr/6e28b3ec-9f4d-4ae5-bb2b-329c31ce318a.jpg

That was from about 25 feet. As I said to dkmatthews afterward, "I think you just sold a Kahr." Time to start shopping around.

[LorenzoB]

Nice shooting. That is pretty cool how that all worked out (some good people here). I look forward to seeing what you get.

[Tomac]

My first range trip w/my Kahr CM9 was shooting tin cans at 10yrds, and getting hits! (I wouldn't have believed that possible w/such a small pistol & DAO-style trigger).
Got me to thinking about the advantages of a DAO-style trigger for CCW (no manual safety to worry about remembering/finding/manipulating under stress) so to make a not-so-long story even shorter, the wife and I replaced her SIG P238 & my S&W M&P9c (thumb safety, APEX trigger) w/a Kahr P380 & SIG P250sc .380 (for her) and a SIG P250c 9mm for myself (SIG P250 also has a long but smooth & light DAO-style trigger like the Kahr). Color us happy!
Tomac
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/P7050002.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Tomac/media/P7050002.jpg.html)

[dkmatthews]

bxojr -- I'm glad it worked out for you! As we talked about last night, it's a purely defensive tool and you did much better than the minimum, "minute of bad guy", for accuracy.

Keep us informed on your progress and acquisition(s)!

[xsailer]

bxojr,
I understand your questions as your story mimics mine. Got my Kahr cm9 then got hooked on the M&P9c and traded for it. Way different trigger pulls. I like them both though. My thought is IF I tried to standardize I would trade the SW for a PK9 I think. That gun fits my hand great and I hear it shoots great. I will keep the SW though for the reason I bought it, 12 round magazine. That makes it worth it. I can easily carry for CC in the colder months and I think get I can get spun up for the different trigger pull. So the SW is my bed side protection during the warm months and the Kahr my carry weapon. I bought 4 clips for CM9 to practice quick mag changes which I think wise for follow on lessons. Also, you won't believe it but I think the Kahr has less kick than the SW.

[Tomac]

I used to CCW an M&P9c and due to the light APEX trigger I had the thumb safety version. W/my CM9 (which I carry when I simply can't carry anything larger) there's no manual safety to worry about remembering/finding/manipulating under stress and that got me to thinking about the M&P9c.
Ended up selling the M&P and replacing it w/a couple of SIG P250's for the wife and I (DOA like the Kahr, P250sc .380 for her, P250sc 9mm for myself) to go w/our Kahrs. Now the triggers of all our "serious" pistols are the same so no training/trigger issues.
Tomac

[gmcjetpilot]

I dry-fired one in the store and expected to hate the long DAO trigger
pull, but after a couple of minutes it really grew on me. "I could get used
to this," I said to myself.
M&P is double action ONLY is it not? Yes
The M&P has a long pull as well, does it not? Yes
Some people hate the M&P dangling trigger deal.
If the M&P is your bar for great triggers, the bar is low.
The CM9 is as good or better and is also DAO striker fire.



Here's my concern. I can be pretty accurate with my M&P when I go slow,
but even with that gun I've had accuracy problems because of its heavy
trigger (I've installed an Apex trigger kit to lighten the trigger pull). I'm
worried that, especially as a new shooter, I'm just asking for trouble if
I buy a carry gun that's so different from the gun I'm used to.

We are all more accurate going slow. Practice more.
Practice Practice (double taps, one hand, weak hand, take adv courses).
Get good habits and go slow and build on speed.
Always use good technique & paractice.
George Zimmerman? Most shootings happen at 9 feet or less.
How accurate do you need to be? Good enough & always get better.
Think twice about trigger mods. Imagine in court:
"He put a modified hair trigger on his gun, a Death Trigger!"
Only thing I'd is clean it & maybe polish a few parts but leave stock.

Asking for trouble? I hope not. Avoid trouble but be prapaired. Practice so
it is not different, it is your main gun. M&P & Kahr are both double action
pistols and share lots of similarities. Both guns are inspired by Glocks...
My G26 Gen4 has best trigger of bunch, not comfortable to carry as CM9.
You always trade off something for size vs ease of shooting, accuracy, capacity.
Last thing PRACTICE! :amflag:

[bxojr]

M&P & Kahr are both double action
pistols and share lots of similarities.
Both guns are based on Glocks...

No, the M&P is not double-action. I think it's basically the same as what Glock calls "safe action," meaning (if I understand correctly) the striker is cocked ALMOST all the way by the movement of the slide. Pulling the trigger completes the cocking of the striker and releases it, but for all practical purposes it's a single-action trigger.

Having shot both, I can say that the M&P and Kahr triggers are very different. But that doesn't worry me anymore, because I'm confident that I can master both types.

[dkmatthews]

No, the M&P is not double-action. I think it's basically the same as what Glock calls "safe action," meaning (if I understand correctly) the striker is cocked ALMOST all the way by the movement of the slide. Pulling the trigger completes the cocking of the striker and releases it, but for all practical purposes it's a single-action trigger.

Having shot both, I can say that the M&P and Kahr triggers are very different. But that doesn't worry me anymore, because I'm confident that I can master both types.

Your groups with the Kahr pistols were fine and you were getting all rounds on paper. As we discussed at the range, the way I've been trained is that if you are getting all rounds on target, you need to increase your speed. My recommendation is to get a Kahr and shoot the fokker like you stole it! :D

[gmcjetpilot]

No, the M&P is not double-action. I think it's basically the same as what Glock calls "safe action," meaning (if I understand correctly) the striker is cocked ALMOST all the way by the movement of the slide. Pulling the trigger completes the cocking of the striker and releases it, but for all practical purposes it's a single-action trigger.


Having shot both, I can say that the M&P and Kahr triggers are very different. But that doesn't worry me anymore, because I'm confident that I can master both types.
You are mincing words... The M&P is DAO... "Safe Action" slightly pre-
cocks the hammer. The Kahr has that. It is Glock who started this.
It is STILL DOUBLE ACTION... Why? Because it does two things, cocks
the hammer and fires. It is not single action. Just because there is a slight
pre-cock, it does not make it single action. Since there is no such thing as
"safe action" (which is a Glock Trade Name) the Glock, M&P and Kahr fit
best in DAO.

If you ever fire a single action revolver or 1911, the triggers are worlds
apart. The hammer is fully cocked and the trigger just does one thing, BANG.


Again the M&P is not known for having a great trigger, only adequate. I
know people get defensive about gear, so take no offense. I shot the M&P
and I will not buy one, even though they are real pretty. My Glock is so
ugly it is beautiful. The Kahr is nice looking but nothing fancy.

[bxojr]

Your groups with the Kahr pistols were fine and you were getting all rounds on paper. As we discussed at the range, the way I've been trained is that if you are getting all rounds on target, you need to increase your speed. My recommendation is to get a Kahr and shoot the fokker like you stole it! :D

That's the plan! Already shopping around for a good price on a CM9.

And as much as I keep talking about adjusting to the Kahr trigger, I have to admit ... the first time I shot your PM9, I did better than the first time I shot my M&P. I'm really looking forward to seeing how far I can go with it.

I just hope ammo prices keep dropping...

[kurtj]

Hi bxojr,
Welcome, I too just got back into pistol shooting a year ago. I have a Kahr K-9. I had a cm9 and was deadly accurate with it. Like the PM9, theyr'e great guns. But I wanted a bigger shooter. The K9 while not cheap, it's all steel, less recoil with an extra 8 oz. of wieght from the cm9. Also a 3.5" barrel with a longer framed grip and the best trigger i have ever used. I also prefer thr polygonal barrel( not for everyone). I have tried many carry guns and for me, (including the shield) and Kahr's are the best. I like the K9 in a kusiak holster! Great holster by the way for $35. I live in South Fla. (tha swamp) and both hold up very well. Rest one and try it! ou'll like it! Good luck on your decision! I'm very happy with mine!

[bxojr]

You are mincing words... The M&P is DAO... "Safe Action" slightly pre-
cocks the hammer. The Kahr has that as well Glocks who started it all.
It is STILL DOUBLE ACTION... Why? Because it does two things, cocks
the hammer and fires. It is not single action. Just because there is a slight
pre-cock does not make it single action. Since there is no such thing as
safe action (which is a Glock Trade Name) the Glock, M&P and Kahr fit
best in DAO.

If you ever fire a single action revolver or 1911 the trigger is worlds apart.
The hammer is fully cocked and the trigger just does one thing, BANG.


Well ... the Glock/M&P trigger does not have a "slight" pre-cock -- it's pre-cocked almost all the way. It's the cocking during the trigger pull that's slight. Either way, it's not truly double-action OR single action, but it's closer to single than double. I'll admit that this is splitting hairs, and I'm sure there are arguments all over the Internet about what to call it.

But I have shot a 1911. Definitely a shorter and lighter trigger pull, but in my opinion it's much more similar to the Glock/M&P trigger than any of them are to the Kahr. Of course all of them are different from each other, and there's a lot of subjectivity here. Ultimately it's not single-action versus double-action that matters, it's just the difference between one gun's trigger and another.

I do agree with you that the M&P trigger is not great out of the box; I found it to be far too heavy. I installed an Apex trigger kit on mine and am quite happy with it now.

[jocko]

kimber calls their solo "single action" and no external hammer on that gun, so in essence these gun makers can call thier guns and actions anything they want, whether it fits the proper definition or not... One could argue that a double action should start from a totallydead trigger set, like a revolver, but no semi that I know operates that way. All have some percentage of pre cock in them. Kahrs certainly of the comparison to the kimpber, glocks and M &P is far far far less than thoose, but it stillhas some present n it. I think also that is why we see on the ENHANCED TRIGGER of kahrs that they will alwyas have an external safty on that for the trigger travle is getting into the glock area and that is hairy for no safety system IMO. The enhanced willbe around 1/4" triggertravel and that IMO is hairy indeed. U can call it precocked or what eer. I call it hairy..:Amflag2:

[bxojr]

kimber calls their solo "single action" and no external hammer on that gun, so in essence these gun makers can call thier guns and actions anything they want, whether it fits the proper definition or not...

Ain't that the truth. Smith & Wesson actually does call the M&P "double action only" on their Web site, which I didn't realize. But I've read elsewhere that in fact, the striker is 98% pre-cocked. If that other 2% is enough to call it double action, then anything goes...

At least Glock doesn't call theirs single- or double-action. They just make up their own term, "safe action."

[jocko]

and that trigger of their is a farce. It sounds good in print but it is no safer thanone keeping their finger out of the trigger guard. but as we all know to, MENTALITY comes in many degrees.
I love my G19 and I know most here want to be super macho and no safety sh!t on their guns . Thats OK with me but glocks SAS is a farce. I am a big fan of the SIDER LOCK that goes on kahrs. It works exactly like a SAS , all steel, no junk sh!t but it gives a person other than some of the super macho people the option of a button safety like on what has been on long guns for 50+ years.. Humm If I remember right the safety on the mi garand is inside the trigger guard area...

www.siderlock.com

[kurtj]

Jocko, is there a trigger like this to put on a kahr?

[jocko]

Jocko, is there a trigger like this to put on a kahr?

question but NO is the answer. The siderlock is only made for glocks, no other gun maker YET.:Amflag2:

[Hunter991]

I own both the Shield and the CM and CW9. For ease of concealment the CM9 is hard to beat. I like all 3 guns a lot and they all shoot great. but I find myself carrying the CM most of the time because I can make it disappear. The CW and the Shield are roughly the same size and the grip is longer. It shows a tad when I carry at 4 oclock.

[gmcjetpilot]

THINK TWICE about modifying a carry gun... Image the prosecution, he shot
that nice kid (with a long rap sheet high on meth) with a gun he modified
with a hair trigger, a death trigger..... No thanks.