leaving mags fully loaded

[Bkkd]

does it hurt the kahr mags in anyway to leave them loaded to the full capacity, i tend to carry for a while before i shoot or rotate ammo and mags....just curious, i would like peace of mind to top that cm9 off to its full 7 rounds with the 6 round mag.

[Longitude Zero]

Harm is doubtful. I rotate my mags every 30 days. One month loaded two months vacation.

[yqtszhj]

Leave mine loaded all the time.

[dkmatthews]

I'm no physicist or metallurgist, but I've been told that compression/decompression cycles are more harmful to the spring than constant compression or constant decompression. Also, common sense will tell you that stretching a spring is worse than any of the above.

Take it or leave it. YMMV.

[wyntrout]

Yep... what DK said.

Wynn:)

[QuackXP]

I'm no physicist or metallurgist, but I've been told that compression/decompression cycles are more harmful to the spring than constant compression or constant decompression. Also, common sense will tell you that stretching a spring is worse than any of the above.

Take it or leave it. YMMV.

This has come up on other forums I have posted on. Also I have had no feed issues on mags that have been loaded over a year with my M&P 40.

Being new to Kahr I cant comment on those mags specifically but springs are springs. IMHO.

[godan]

As I learned in the Army, long ago and far away, I always load one down - all mags in all weapons every time.

[Bawanna]

I'm with LZ. I try to rotate mags once every month or two. I think springs are far better these days than long ago and it's might not be necessary but not a big deal either.

As I shared long ago here, I shot two full magazines thru a 1942 Colt 1911 that had been loaded since 1944 a couple years ago. Original ammo untouched in all that time.

All rounds fed and fired without issue.

[getsome]

Mag springs are cheap to replace if you feel the need to, Needing that last round you fully loaded in the magazine, Priceless

[muggsy]

As I learned in the Army, long ago and far away, I always load one down - all mags in all weapons every time.

You run into a lot of old wives tales in the Army. We Navy men know that leaving a magazine fully loaded does it no harm.

[godan]

You run into a lot of old wives tales in the Army. We Navy men know that leaving a magazine fully loaded does it no harm.

If it keeps you alive, do you consider it an old wives tale? I am interested in people who deride experience gained the hard way.

[downtownv]

I'm no physicist or metallurgist, but I've been told that compression/decompression cycles are more harmful to the spring than constant compression or constant decompression. Also, common sense will tell you that stretching a spring is worse than any of the above.

Take it or leave it. YMMV.

Are there any physicists or metallurgists out there?:o
Given there isn't... I liken it to a fat chick lying in a bed in the same spot, constantly. Those springs will not be as resilient, compress and lose it's flexibility. IMO

[dkmatthews]

Like I said, "Take it or leave it. YMMV."

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[Tinman507]

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o542/tinman507/Spring-Depression-Squad_zps73f10516.jpg

[CJB]

The issue of spring fatigue comes up every once in a while, and the answer from the 1950's and 1960's (and maybe the 1970's) has not changed. There is very little harm done.

The US Army did tests on this very subject. In the 1960's the NRA's American Rifleman reported on those tests, which were performed on US M1911 type magazines. It was found that after decades of compression by being fully charged with ammunition, the magazines and springs were still perfectly usable - in 1911's, with FMJ ammo.

I used to take that as the defacto "no problem" response, but lately, I'm giving it other consideration. The reason for the afterthought is that the 1911 design is rather forgiving in terms of magazine spring pressure, and that FMJ ammo tends to feed very well anyway. in a design like Kahr's, the magazine spring pressure is a lot more critical, so there may be problems after long compression..... or there may not be.

[godan]

I knew about the NRA report on 1911 mags. As it happened, a CCW student gave me a loaded 1911 mag his father had left behind in 1945. I took it to the Gunsite Advanced Tactical Pistol Problems course and gave it to an instructor. He had seen them a couple of times before. The mag fed fine. My own doubts and subsequent practice emerge from experience with the first generation of 20-round M16 mags, that occasionally (and occasionally is all you need) had trouble feeding the first round. We always downloaded one. What you learn in direct military situations may not be typical, but it does stay with you.

[CJB]

A lot of magazines suffer from 1st round problems when full. It was not uncommon to download the Browning HP to 12 from 13. Later, they did something, and you could get 14 shots from those mags, even though they still said 13!

In a past life, I carried and shot the small MAC-11/380, which had 32 round magazines, or just under 3 seconds of burst firing. Always had to carry 30 in those mags, as 32 or 31 from the open bolt would screw you up every time. Just too tight. Which is the opposite of magazines being too loose from weak compressed springs.

[RevRay]

In one of those "you learn something new every day" ways, this has turned to be an interesting thread.

[deadeye]

I have always been told by people who should know that what shortens the life of a spring is compression - decompression. Leaving them compressed should be better than not. However I am not a metallurgist. Was always more interested in gynecology. Studied it all my life.

[muggsy]

If it keeps you alive, do you consider it an old wives tale? I am interested in people who deride experience gained the hard way.

It's an old wives tale. Magazines came fully loaded when I served. They had been fully loaded for years. I never experienced failure one. Name me one gun manufacturer who instructs you to put one less round in their magazines rather than loading them to full capacity. Someone at some time had a failure to feed and blamed it on the magazine and the rest is history. Of course, I'm kinda new to this game. I've only been shooting for 62 years.

[godan]

It's an old wives tale. Magazines came fully loaded when I served. They had been fully loaded for years. I never experienced failure one. Name me one gun manufacturer who instructs you to put one less round in their magazines rather than loading them to full capacity. Someone at some time had a failure to feed and blamed it on the magazine and the rest is history. Of course, I'm kinda new to this game. I've only been shooting for 62 years.

I have direct, hands-on experience that is not consistent with your generalized views.

[muggsy]

Godan, if you have direct hands on experience that isn't consistent with my generalized views and the generalized views of the NRA then by all means leave your magazines less than full. Since I haven't shared that experience, I won't. Fair enough?

[CJB]

How about sharing those experiences?

[godan]

How about sharing those experiences?

Look at post #16, above. When the M16 was first issued, the cleaning, no-cleaning, fouling, etc. problems deservedly received the most attention and were fixed the soonest. However, the first round feeding problems were also widely known. I think they changed the follower, and eventually went to the 30 round mag, but all of that was after I left the military. I knew about the problems with Brownings, but only as an observer. In early action pistol matches, the choices were pretty much 1911's and Brownings, and all of the Browning shooters routinely loaded one down. If you know about the fix Browning eventually applied, I would like to hear details. I believe the NRA tests were only with 1911 mags, thus not universally applicable. There is plenty of information around about the effect of the last round on spring fatigue, but If somebody is absolutely convinced that all mags should always be fully loaded, that's fine with me.

[wyntrout]

The only time I've HAD to download by one any magazines was with my P12 after I put Wolff springs in it. The danged plastic bases bulged out and would start to slip off! I loaded one less and all was fine. I only carried it at night(Night Sights) when walking my dog and after the doggie died, I sold the P12 and continued to carry my .22 TPH until I got the PM9 in January '09 and then the PM45 a few months later... followed by the P380 finally arriving after 11 months of waiting for the night-sighted version!

Wynn:)

[godan]

This is a digression, but perhaps timely. Did your TPH work? I had one and a connection to a then-well-established gunsmith who knew people at Interarms. He and I worked on it, sent it to Interarms twice for their best efforts, bought different mags, tried all the ammo we could find in those days, cursed, begged, etc. Nothing worked. The gun would not run two mags in a row without an FTF. How was yours?

[wyntrout]

It was okay. The base plates on the mags started to split where the metal part from the tube pressed into it for retention. After seeing that the German mags were about $90 each, I just epoxied them.

I only shot Stingers in mine and the only real problem I had was the slide could bite the web of my hand if I wasn't careful... the same reason I got rid of my PPK/S.

Double action was stiff for the first shot, but I had a "double" once in a while at the range because single action was pretty light and trying to take up the slack could cause a premature shot!:eek:

Before my eyes got a little old, I could hit a 4" bullseye at 25 yards pretty well. I'm doing good to hit a 6" now, but I can stay on a sheet of paper at 15 yards... max range where I shoot.

I hadn't carried the TPH since I got the P380 in 2010, so I sold the TPH last gun show... to a guy wearing a mask... really! He said it was his doctor's orders.:D

Wynn:)

[CJB]

When the M16 was first issued, the cleaning, no-cleaning, fouling, etc. problems deservedly received the most attention and were fixed the soonest. However, the first round feeding problems were also widely known. I think they changed the follower, and eventually went to the 30 round mag, but all of that was after I left the military. I knew about the problems with Brownings, but only as an observer. In early action pistol matches, the choices were pretty much 1911's and Brownings, and all of the Browning shooters routinely loaded one down. If you know about the fix Browning eventually applied, I would like to hear details. I believe the NRA tests were only with 1911 mags, thus not universally applicable. There is plenty of information around about the effect of the last round on spring fatigue, but If somebody is absolutely convinced that all mags should always be fully loaded, that's fine with me.

Let me elaborate.

The M16 was designed for IMR powder, which is tubular in shape and which is larger than a spherical powder when the burning rate is kept the same, or close to the same. The problem arose with feeding when the US Military went to universal use of "ball" powder, which is a form of spherical powder that is slightly (more or less) flattened. That power gave a good burning rate, and pressure curve, and good performance, but left chamber and gas system residue that was not accounted for in the maintenance shedules of the original rifles. Maintenance schedules were modified, but it was found that under humid conditions and sustained fire, residue still gave problems, especially with chambering. Because of that, the forward assist was added. The chambering problem was most severe when the magazine was full, ie, 1st round. That was because the friction provided by ammunition with a fully compressed magazine spring got no real bounce effect from the bolt carrier (and bolt), as subsequent rounds did. So, all of that had nothing to do with magazine springs LOSING strength because of compression. In fact, things would have been better if the magazine strength was perhaps a little less. At least in terms of 1st round chambering and the friction of stripping causing the bolt carrier to slow down and not be able to overcome a dirty chamber. The follower was changed at least several times, but initially there were problems with hold open on the last round. This was not a magazine spring issue, but a follower shape issue. They reworked the ledge that actuates the hold open for the bolt carrier. Again, no magazine spring compression isseu.

The Browning HiPower's issue... from what I could tell, had to do with commercial magazines made for a pretty good length of time. I first started shooting the HiPower in the very late 1970's, about 78 or 79. Back then it was a real mother to get that 13th round in the magazine, as the spring would be fully compressed. You could get it in there, but friction would play hell as it stripped and the first round would go just about anywhere but into the chamber. This was also the period of the humped feed ramp on Hi Powers. Something changed. We saw the change rather clearly when I was working doing everything at a local gun range / gunshop. It was like a switch was thrown, and now you could get not only 13, but 14 rounds in the magazine. Even the 14th round was easier than the old 13th round. I think they either reworked the bottom of the follower, or got a more springy spring that required less coils to provide adequate lift. Whatever happened, it happend in the mid to late 80's and I don't know if it ever changed since I got out of that position in that late 90's.

The NRA tests, were NOT the NRA tests. You are totally mistaken. The NRA reported on tests done by the US ARMY, on 1911 magazines. You made the case that since it was 1911 magazines, its not valid across other platforms. The case can also be made that there are no significant differences between platforms, so while the exact details of the test don't apply, the result can be applied over a broad base of platforms to some less, or perhaps greater degree. One might also suppose that the manufacture of magazine springs has improved since the 1920.... and that more favorable results could very well be expected.

Again, I hope that clarifies.

[godan]

CJB: Your explanation of the initial problems with the M16 is correct. I knew about it, but did not go into that much detail. You may know, as those on the ground did, of the success of the comic book style instruction manual first issued to troops that helped correct the problem. Even so, as various fixes were applied, loading one down was a common practice.

Your explanation of the problems with the Browning mags is more than I knew before. Again, the field solution was to load one down

I was, indeed, "totally" wrong in that I failed to insert the word "reported" after "NRA" in my post, but the substance is that only 1911 mags were tested. Opinions may vary about how widely the results might be applied across other platforms.

In addition to loading one down to work around chamber fouling and different magazine spring issues, I have found threads on Sig sites about loading one down in P6 and 225 models to reduce a problem of spreading feed lips. I have a book on order that may describe the situation in more detail.

What I think can be taken away from this is that for several firearms, for different reasons, serious people have decided it was wise to load one down. It seems reasonable that with modern technology, today's magazines may safely be loaded fully, but I am not aware of any tests whose results support that idea.

[badge4436]

does it hurt the kahr mags in anyway to leave them loaded to the full capacity, i tend to carry for a while before i shoot or rotate ammo and mags....just curious, i would like peace of mind to top that cm9 off to its full 7 rounds with the 6 round mag.

i've got 6 PM9 6 round mags. I rotate them everymonth just for the H of it. They get to rest for 2 months before going back in harness.

[bugs]

why not fully load the mags your concerned about, leave them sit for a month/s and then run them dry; make your call based on your results with your Kahr.

I did this with all my mags (in rotation) and found I can load 'em up, barney the CM9, and after months compressed they still run slicker then owl pellets!

NRA LIFER

IDPA BELEIVER

[OvalNut]

why not fully load the mags your concerned about, leave them sit for a month/s and then run them dry; make your call based on your results with your Kahr.

I did this with all my mags (in rotation) and found I can load 'em up, barney the CM9, and after months compressed they still run slicker then owl pellets!

NRA LIFER

IDPA BELEIVER


I agree. This is how I do it as well with my PM9. I have several mags I fully refill after every range trip, then reload the PM9 with a full mag of HSTs +1 in the pipe, then reholster. Ready to go and no hiccups.


Tim