Proper PM9 Sight Usage

[AFVet]

Right now I'm using the stock PM9 sights until I decide on night sights or a laser. Anyway, I'm having a hard time with them.

The rest of my guns have 2 dots on the rear sights, and I'm having a hard time adjusting to the single dot of the Kahr. I guess the idea is to have that single rear dot just below the front one when aiming? It seems to me that I have an easier time leveling the gun when I have the 2 rear dots for reference.

Any thoughts or suggestions on how to target with the stock sights?

[jlottmc]

Ignore the dots and look at the sight picture, then see how the dots are supposed to lie up. That will help that. I seldom use dots/bars/etc, preferring instead to use the actual sights.

[Bawanna]

Ignore the dots and look at the sight picture, then see how the dots are supposed to lie up. That will help that. I seldom use dots/bars/etc, preferring instead to use the actual sights.

Agreed or do like others here have mentioned and cover the rear with black tape so all you see is the notch and the front sight, less confusing. I do like my stock sights real well, your basically correct. Put the front sight on top of the rear sight and your there. then just determine where you need to hold that sight picture on the target. On, or 6 oclock. whatever. My XS sights I cover the spot I want to hit rather than 6 oclock hold. Takes a bit of getting used to but once your dialed in it works just fine.

[deadhead1971]

Look at this-- Sight Picture - Bob Tuley (http://www.bobtuley.com/sight_picture.htm)

A center hold works good for me.

[hsart]

Agreed or do like others here have mentioned and cover the rear with black tape so all you see is the notch and the front sight, less confusing. I do like my stock sights real well, your basically correct. Put the front sight on top of the rear sight and your there. then just determine where you need to hold that sight picture on the target. On, or 6 oclock. whatever. My XS sights I cover the spot I want to hit rather than 6 oclock hold. Takes a bit of getting used to but once your dialed in it works just fine.
I think the key is to dial-in as previously noted based on your type of sights and run a lot of rounds through to get it right and make it second nature. Don't forget correct trigger pull (slow and steady until it goes bang). Depending on the gun you may need to slightly modify your grip - once again trial and error - keep shooting.

[jocko]

Right now I'm using the stock PM9 sights until I decide on night sights or a laser. Anyway, I'm having a hard time with them.

The rest of my guns have 2 dots on the rear sights, and I'm having a hard time adjusting to the single dot of the Kahr. I guess the idea is to have that single rear dot just below the front one when aiming? It seems to me that I have an easier time leveling the gun when I have the 2 rear dots for reference.

Any thoughts or suggestions on how to target with the stock sights?

guarantee you one thing, if ever in a gun fight, the last thing you are going to think about doing is lining up any two dot or one dot sights. My own personal opinion here, so take it for what it is worth. The PM9 is a close up personal DEFENSE gun, nothing more. It is not a target gun, by design but a gun that will save you life if needed.

More than one shooter has told me in the past to practice close, get fast with that gun at the distance you are practicing at. Fast meaning target acquisition. If you have to draw a weapon in a critical situation and start looking for those sights, you might just be in deep sh-t. You can get damn deadly and damn good with just POA shooting and that is why the xs big dot sights is so popular amoung fightin type guns. That big dot will just grab your eyeballs when you pull it up, forget about the rear sight, as it will just follow along with your target acquisistion. My bet is that if you practice POA shooting, that you will find that the rear sight is right where you wanted it to be only you did not have to do a darn thing like looking for it etc. Just my 2 cents here as I know everyone has their own style of shooting. bit I am in my mind anyhow just as good at 7 yards pulling up, seeing that front sight quickly and firing, instead of trying to line upt he front sight between the back sight and level both out etc. A waste of good fightin time and maybe your life to.

I am guilty of not doiing alot of it my self and that is "train to fight" but I do feel I shoot my PM9 the way I would in a critical sitauation. Maybe also that is why my groups are never half dollars size groups at 7 yards to (a good excsue for me anyhow).
Not sure that running around and fring around the corners of buildings or around a tree etc is all that great if when you get into that shooting position, you then revert back to your target shooting mode of operindi...
Course if hitting bottle caps at 10 yards are your goal in practice to, then more than likely everything above is wasted verbage on my part...

The front sight is always your friend, you cannot see the target, front sight and rear sight clearly. Eyes just can't focus that way, so you pick the front sight clearly and everything else is basically a blur (but still seen)

[olympicmotorcars]

Great advice Jocko, now I have another excuse to go to the range and try this technique out.

[arizona98tj]

It seems to me that I have an easier time leveling the gun when I have the 2 rear dots for reference.

What dots?





:D

[Popeye]

+1 Jocko The grip angle and the natural pointability that it creates is one of the things that turned me on to Kahr pistols in the first place. I do that quite often at the range. I just practice point shooting not actual sight shooting as if every split second counts. I even tried running as fast as I could to my pickup and back to get another box of ammo at and out door range. I did this to get the heart rate up to simulate and adrenalene rush. As soon as I got back to the bench I grabbed the pistol and shot off a fully loaded mag.(7 rounds) I was amazed at how much that changes things as far as where your shots are ending up at, and that's with know one shooting back. Everybody should try that at least once. It gives you a little better understanding of why they say in a real life kill or be killed gun battle with the juices flowing full tilt, 80 % of the shots fired miss there intended target.

[jocko]

+1 Jocko The grip angle and the natural pointability that it creates is one of the things that turned me on to Kahr pistols in the first place. I do that quite often at the range. I just practice point shooting not actual sight shooting as if every split second counts. I even tried running as fast as I could to my pickup and back to get another box of ammo at and out door range. I did this to get the heart rate up to simulate and adrenalene rush. As soon as I got back to the bench I grabbed the pistol and shot off a fully loaded mag.(7 rounds) I was amazed at how much that changes things as far as where your shots are ending up at, and that's with know one shooting back. Everybody should try that at least once. It gives you a little better understanding of why they say in a real life kill or be killed gun battle with the juices flowing full tilt, 80 % of the shots fired miss there intended target.


I remember reading a report that was made in a study with the NYPD about 6+ years ago and that over 60% missed their targets in a gun fight AT SIX FEET....

I did that running test thing not to long ago. wow, my shots were totally all over the place and all I had was a very elevated heart beat, no death threat...

[jeepster09]

I remember reading a report that was made in a study with the NYPD about 6+ years ago and that over 60% missed their targets in a gun fight AT SIX FEET....

I did that running test thing not to long ago. wow, my shots were totally all over the place and all I had was a very elevated heart beat, no death threat...

I remember about 15 years ago an officer with the Airport Police here in Minnesota, emptied 3 clips from his Berreta 92 at about 30 feet and never hit the BG with the AK47. That is about 40-50 rounds missed!!!!!:59:

[jocko]

and yet many people do alot of their defense shooting at 15 to 25 yards. Maybe he was just trying to scare the guy away---u thinketh????

Wouold be kinda hard to come home at the end of the day and have your wife ask you, How did you day go honey??? Oh I had to shoot at a guy today 50 times but never hit him!!!!

[Bawanna]

Bad things happen when the ole adreneline is coursing thru your veins. I watched a few years ago as a ranking officer, chief maybe of another agency shot a simulator here. Nothing hides on this machine, you can play it back and it tells you where you shot, when you shot and what the outcome was. It's a game for sure but it's probably as close to real life short of maybe air soft and such.
Anyhow this chief takes on a bad guy, bad guy shoots, chief pulls his gun, bad guy runs around corner. Chief fires 6 shots at nothing? Instructor asked what he was shooting at, he said bad guy of course. Wanted to argue. Played it back and shoo nuff, bad guy was gone almost 2 seconds before he shot his first round, just dead set on taking the bad guy out after the fact I guess. Remember the clip from back east some place, a suburban with a couple WA state bad guys but like Wisconsin or someplace. One guy ran, one officers Beretta? emptied, no hits. Officer on driver side was wrestling thru window, couldn't get gun out from heavy winter coat, guy drove off dragging officer for a short distance, never did show officer getting his gun out. Adrenaline, a bad thing. Training and good consistant habits are all we can do to help do the best we can.

[Bawanna]

:) hmmm, A 9mm Beretta at 30 feet. Against a AK47, with 7.62X39 ammo that will go thru that cops vest like it was not even there.

I give that cop BIG credit for standing in there! He was clearly out gunned. 3 mags is what most LEO's carry. So he fired ALL of his ammo at the BG. That cop showed real bravery in my eyes. That scenario was like David vs. Goliath.

Give him a little credit fella's ! Would you have done the same, for his same pay ? :confused:

Sure enough, not much to hide behind against a AK. Fortunately the BG apparently went to a second rate firearms school too or adrenalin was messing him up too. Don't matter score another bonus point for the good guy.

[AFVet]

I have a Seecamp 32, and they advocate point shooting as well. In fact, it's about all you can do as that little gun doesn't even come with sights. I can keep it on the paper, but still working at making more accurate groups.

[AFVet]

BTW, I shot much better with the stock sights this weekend at the range. I just kept envisioning that back sight as black since I forgot to tape it before I went. :)

[jocko]

I have a Seecamp 32, and they advocate point shooting as well. In fact, it's about all you can do as that little gun doesn't even come with sights. I can keep it on the paper, but still working at making more accurate groups.

why there are really no sight on the seacamp. or lcp or kel tecs for that matter. They are what they are,,,, a very very close up personal gun, that if you think you need sights on that gun, then your not practicing defensive shooting.

One can go out and train and shoot all he wants consentrating on those sights but when SH-T hits the fan. it just ain't gonna happen. To many shooting and post reviews that show that the officer never seen, or used his sights. he just fired away, POA is certainly better than nothing that is for sure, but un less one has been there so to say, we just don't know.

I can tell you that over 35 years ago in my gun shop I was armed robbed twice. One with a Mossberg 12 gauge pump and the other with a 38 snubbie. I had a gun in the drawer and that was the last thing I thought about with those weapons pointed at my chest. Survival was what it was all about, not being a dead hero. I cannot to this day even remember everything that went down in those few moments even. I am so glad I did not have a holstered visible gun on me, for I do feel then I would have been shot first off. I cannot express the fear either, nor that brown stuff in my shorts shortly after that and that large puddle at my feet. I can't say I have been there done that but I can say I have been there.....

I read alot on these forum about multiple gun carrys, multiple magazine carrys etc, macho stuff IMO. not to knock anyone, that what sells magazines and shooting accessories also, but to me the best protection is just good ol common sense. 99% of the time if common sense prevails, you will be safe, tread into unknown areas i. e. using no common sense and things will happen..

[G26ster]

Great post Jocko! True, true, true.

[jlottmc]

Well said Jocko. I learned long ago that if you can see the back of your pistol on the target, that you'll hit that target at CONTACT RANGES (10 yds and under). It may not be a good hit, but hits buy time for better hits. In the end common sense and COVER will help to keep you alive.

[jfrey]

First off, pay a lot of attention to what Jocko tells you. He knows what he is talking about.
Second, try what I am doing and order a replacement rear sight from Dawson Precision in plain black and see if it improves things. I'm also getting a fiber optic front sight to match. I shoot high with my CW9 for some reason and Kathy at Dawson told me she could get the right sight to correct the problem. When I get them installed, I'll report back and let you know if they really do fix it or not. Jocko and others here rave about the Dawson sight and that just might be the fix you are looking for.

[AFVet]

Hard to make any comments around here without someone jumping on you quickly. Oh well...

[Tilos]

AFVet:
Yep

Tilos

[G26ster]

Hard to make any comments around here without someone jumping on you quickly. Oh well...

I don't think you've been jumped on. It seems that you got some good advice early on in this thread (which I agree with), and then some advice on the point and shoot aspect when the adrenalin is pumping, which I also agree with.

I practice with sights (big dots), and with laser at times, and also practice point and shoot when I can. No one, except you, can decide how you will defend yourself with this pistol.

[jlottmc]

Well said G26ster.

[Bawanna]

Hard to make any comments around here without someone jumping on you quickly. Oh well...

AFVet and Tilo, you fella's just jump right in here and speak your mind. I got your back or umbrella or whatever to keep the hyena's off from ya. Anybody jumps on ya well by golly I'll whack em on the head with my purse! That wouldn't be manly though would it, ok wrap yourself around this idea, I'll whack em on the head with my fanny pack, use to carry it all the time, hardly ever anymore, so it would put it to good use. I'll throw a dozen loaded 45 mags in it so it will be a meaningful whack.
Seriously, every one's got their own ideas of how the world should rotate but I don't think there's any big strategy to jump on folks.
I forsee some good input from you fella's an we're looking forward to it.

ok bye.

[AFVet]

Bringing a purse to what I suspect might be a gun fight, Bawanna45cal? May not be recommended although I appreciate the sentiment.

My dad (old school WW II vet) actually still carries a "man purse" for lose change. I never picked up the habit even though I can see the utility to a degree.

[Bawanna]

Bringing a purse to what I suspect might be a gun fight, Bawanna45cal? May not be recommended although I appreciate the sentiment.

My dad (old school WW II vet) actually still carries a "man purse" for lose change. I never picked up the habit even though I can see the utility to a degree.

My purses might be the ideal fashion accessory at any civilized gun fight. Like I said I carried a fanny pack for many years, it was convenient like a girl grabbing her purse. Since I can't utilize my pockets (being a wheelchair derelict) I kept wallet, keys, gun, mags, the whole deal. When I'd go someplace just grab it and I had everything I need. In shorts and tank top or dressed for the Iditarod Sled dog race it worked. I've gotten away from it and use a small bag mounted to the chair and keep the gun on my belt or ankle where it belongs. All sentiment aside I'm there for ya pal. Speak when you've a mind too and we'll listen, read, communicate, whatever!

[AFVet]

Well, if your purse has a gun in it, that's a bit of a different story. :)

[user]

All Kahr pistols use the "traditional" sight picture, standard on revolvers and rifles. Other semiautomatics may use the "combat" sight picture; e.g., Glocks & SigSauer. The difference is that the point of impact will appear just above the top of the front sight when the sights are lined up correctly with the traditional style, while the dot on the front sight will cover the point of impact with the combat style. XS front sights will change your Kahr from traditional to combat sights.

[Tilos]

I've been lurking here long enough to see who answers every thread within seconds of it starting.

I am not a devout Jocko cult member and don't need affirmation of my posts from those who are.

When I open a new thread, I'm usually disappointed to find the same 4-6 posters who pretty much parrot the same answer and/or defend the Rev. Jocko.

I am just looking for info/1st hand experience and post when I think I can add the same.
Everyone's 1st hand experience is different and can be useful but should not be minimized or attacked.

Tonight I looked for some info on laser sights in the Crimson Trace thread and it was full of some Richard Cranium's opinion of laser sight uselessness.
Well that ended that thread, no useful info for me there.

Don't take it personal, no need to search for my posts to analyze as there are a very few.
It's just a "feel" I get from lurking here.
Sorry to disappoint the "we're looking forward to it" sect of the cult.
Just YMMV

Just Sayin'

Tilossssssssssssssssssssssssss

[Bawanna]

I've been lurking here long enough to see who answers every thread within seconds of it starting.

I am not a devout Jocko cult member and don't need affirmation of my posts from those who are.

When I open a new thread, I'm usually disappointed to find the same 4-6 posters who pretty much parrot the same answer and/or defend the Rev. Jocko.

I am just looking for info/1st hand experience and post when I think I can add the same.
Everyone's 1st hand experience is different and can be useful but should not be minimized or attacked.

Tonight I looked for some info on laser sights in the Crimson Trace thread and it was full of some Richard Cranium's opinion of laser sight uselessness.
Well that ended that thread, no useful info for me there.

Don't take it personal, no need to search for my posts to analyze as there are a very few.
It's just a "feel" I get from lurking here.
Sorry to disappoint the "we're looking forward to it" sect of the cult.
Just YMMV

Just Sayin'

Tilossssssssssssssssssssssssss

Since you've made your statement with due respect and didn't insult or degrade Jocko or others I appreciate your comments. I respect the fact that you expressed your thoughts without a bunch of negative connotations. While not everyone is a diciple of the Rev Jocko he does have and provide a wealth of knowlege to many folks here. While many will sometimes not agree with his approach he really does strive and enjoy helping folks. I won't drink his kool aid and he won't let me near his Harley so I guess you could say we're internet buds.
As you say I would love to see more folks joining in and contributing good or bad. With any forum you have to sort out the good solid take it to the bank information from the I know a guy who had a cousin who knew someone that had a Kahr. I like it here and if anything I'm guilty of trying to keep things moving when things are slow. I try to limit my educated guess's and only speak seriously of things I know about. On post involving opinions of course my opinion is mine alone. Sadly even though we have a lot of members here only a couple dozen activiely do what we do here, whatever that is. I guess another thing I'm guilty of is firing up the welcome wagon whenever a new person sends a post even if I know nothing about what they want to know. I just want them to know that someone is here, they are welcome and somebody eventually will proabably have an answer to their issue eventually. Sorry your not happy.

[G26ster]

Tilos: I don't know exactly what information you are looking for re: CTC lasers, so I'll just tell you what I know from my experience. I have one on my PM9, and one on my G26. I love them. I am more accurate with them, faster on target, have never had one fail. I am convinced and confident that if and when I ever have to actually use my weapon in defense, the laser will ensure my shots are quick and on target. I strongly disagree that lasers are a crutch. I wear trifocals, and focusing on "any" sight can be a trick, especially in a high stress situation.

The laser basically adds no weight, does not interfere with grip, and I won't be without one.

That said, I feel that this forum, out of all the firearms forums I am a member, is the least confrontational, always helpful, though I don't always agree with the answers I get. But threads as a whole can be very helpful. I too get frustrated on any forum where I ask a serious question, and all I get is smart a__ responses. I don't think this forum is guilty of that as often as most.

OK, my soap box is put away :)

[jlottmc]

Well said Bawanna. And to you G26ster.

[tcb]

I'm a fan of blacking out the dots on my sights. Even on the Trijicon night sights I run on a few of my guns the white outline gets blacked out. That way you just get a crisp sight picture (works for the bullseye guys) and you can just focus on the front sight (the tritium is still useable at night and very helpfull). I found that after I did it it was easyer in matches for me to get off shots not haveing to worry about looking for the dots. Just seeing that good sight picture is enough. I blacked out the sights on my PM40 an it works just fine.

[AFVet]

Well, I'm sorry I said anything now. Didn't mean to turn this thread into anything personal. I'm just here to live and learn. :)

[jocko]

Well, I'm sorry I said anything now. Didn't mean to turn this thread into anything personal. I'm just here to live and learn. :)

IMO are perfectly ok. just keep up the good work. The day we stop learning is probably the day we stop liveing..:cheer2:

As you well know we don't always please "everyone" ...