Routine Traffic Stop In Montana Turns Ugly

[kahrseye]

Watch the video, and see what happens when training and quick reflexes work hand in hand.

Hamilton Police shooting video (http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/vmix_cdf93fba-47ca-11df-9f5c-001cc4c002e0.html)

[PaiN]

Holy ****!, I'm not quite sure how that officer didn't catch one in the face. I wish I could slow-mo the vid.

[jlottmc]

Wow. Shows what happens and how quickly it does happen.

[kahrseye]

Holy ****!, I'm not quite sure how that officer didn't catch one in the face. I wish I could slow-mo the vid.

I believe the first round was spent or a dud...or he woulda been a goner.:eek:

[kahrseye]

Follow up to the story:
Hamilton officer cleared in fatal shooting during January traffic stop (http://www.missoulian.com/news/local/2dd02134-477f-11df-aba6-001cc4c002e0.html)

[jlottmc]

I know a lot of officers that as they approach a vehicle, they have their hand on their weapon, not always do they have the break broken, but they approach like that for just that reason. It also appeared to me that the officer was kind of laxidazical in his approach and in reaching for his weapon. Just goes to show complacency kills.

[kahrseye]

Thank God the jury found him justified in using lethal force. If he was willing to kill a cop what else was this guy capable of? I think this officer was totally justified, had the guy got away who knows how many people could have been killed that night.

[jocko]

the thing that makes no sense was that there was a fu--ing hearing over this shooting. WTF are the matter with these people. Had the guy 41 mag had a live round in that first trigger pull that officer would have been history. Crazy country sometimes, that is for sure. Also should make every one of us who carry think twice, no mayby 3 times before putting a round into someone.

If you don't think adrenaline was flowing, 14 shots fired, one hit and the officer remembering firing 6 rounds. One just cannot practice for such an event, just has to hope to live through it.. It looked to me like he was doing an excellent job of returning fire also...

[kahrseye]

the thing that makes no sense was that there was a fu--ing hearing over this shooting. WTF are the matter with these people. Had the guy 41 mag had a live round in that first trigger pull that officer would have been history. Crazy country sometimes, that is for sure. Also should make every one of us who carry think twice, no mayby 3 times before putting a round into someone.

If you don't think adrenaline was flowing, 14 shots fired, one hit and the officer remembering firing 6 rounds. One just cannot practice for such an event, just has to hope to live through it..

You're Right! Just because you can shoot someone doesn't mean you should. You may be justifed legally but that doesn't mean you won't be sued. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there should be a law in this country that states; "If a person is killed or injured in the process of committing a crime, they (or their family) give up their right to sue anyone period." You made the decision to do something illegal, you should not have the right to sue because you got hurt or killed while doing it.

[jocko]

I know a lot of officers that as they approach a vehicle, they have their hand on their weapon, not always do they have the break broken, but they approach like that for just that reason. It also appeared to me that the officer was kind of laxidazical in his approach and in reaching for his weapon. Just goes to show complacency kills.

sure of the laxidazical thing. He might have approaced with his hand off his weapon, but one sh-it hit the fan , he was very quick IMO returing 14 rounds of pretty good firepower. Hand on the holster or not had that 41 mag fired the first time, he would have been more than likely hstory. He could not have beat that guy to the draw IMO. The elimiate of surprise was in the drunks hands, not the cops. The drunk knew what was walking up to his car, the drunk was ready. the cop had no inkling.. Probably what saved that cops life was the fella was drunk, had it been a sober guy with a 41 mag in his hands, more than likely there would have been no empty cylinder chamber....

I guess my question is . a pull of the trigger and a click and your cylinder went to an empty chamber. Makes no sense to me. The guy was a convicted felon, so he could not own a weapon either. IMO there would have been a shootout down the road somewhere, and civilians could have been certainly involved .... so this officer should have a medal pinned on him and shouldhave never had to go through any damn hearing.

[wyntrout]

Damn! I just took a break from cutting cardboard for targets because I'm experiencing hypoglycemia, so I already have the cold sweats and shakes. I just ate some candy, but it will take a while to take effect. I'm a Type II diabetic and this happens because my meds over-stimulate insulin production and my sugar drops too low if I'm not vigilant and eating snacks at the appropriate intervals.
Anyhow, if that weren't the case, I would still be shaking from just watching something like this. The officer is lucky that idiot didn't blow his head off for whatever reason. It's hard to tell if the BG had a malfunction with his gun, or brain, or both. It's easy to fault the officer from the armchair with 20/20 hindsight and all, but he did react and came away with little or no injury, and if the BG died, the officer did his duty and there's one less BG for all of us to worry about.
It looks like the officer unloaded a magazine to good effect, though I haven't read anything other than the first few posts. I said the officer is lucky. Yes, very lucky, because he wasn't prepared for what happened, and luck played a big part in his survival, for which I'm very thankful.
When an officer makes a traffic stop and walks up the the window, he never knows what to expect, but he should be ready for anything. it's too bad that most LE agencies have to put solo officers into situations like that.
Wynn:)

[kahrseye]

I think that dash cam video was pretty impressive, and what helped justify the shooting for the cops benefit. In the second article it mentioned you could hear the gun misfire on the first trigger pull....that's damned impressive!

[jlottmc]

No doubt he got lucky, no doubt he did the right thing. My post was to suggest awareness. That's all. I do like the castle doctrine laws that have been passed in many states now (28 at last count) they generally limit the liability in a case like that. By-standers though remain unaffected. I agree there should not have been a hearing.

[kahrseye]

It may have been mandatory anytime there is a fatal shooting by an officer. Maybe they had to go by the book and through the motions. I doubt he was worried especially armed with the video.

[jlottmc]

Possibly. What happened to good old fashioned common sense though, just seems the lawyers have everybody going up for something. And with the prosecutors, these days, everyone seems guilty until proven guilty. Just kind of gets me riled up is all.

[kahrseye]

Possibly. What happened to good old fashioned common sense though, just seems the lawyers have everybody going up for something. And with the prosecutors, these days, everyone seems guilty until proven guilty. Just kind of gets me riled up is all.

:israel: AGREED

[jocko]

No doubt he got lucky, no doubt he did the right thing. My post was to suggest awareness. That's all. I do like the castle doctrine laws that have been passed in many states now (28 at last count) they generally limit the liability in a case like that. By-standers though remain unaffected. I agree there should not have been a hearing.

that that cop never seen his sights either. Just Point and Aim and fire away. Not enough time to go looking for any sights. Good POA practice is what to me it is all about.

Probably right about a review, but this seemed like a trial more than anything.

[hsart]

Man, one scary video!! I agree that the officer should have been more prepared to take the first shot, but in situation like that anything can and does happen. Interesting on how his training made him draw and empty his magazine instinctively. That is why everyone with a license needs to train, train, train. Dry practice, gun range, whatever you can do to get your reflexes ready to save your life or your friends and family. Someone told me today that they believe the world and the people in it are basically good. That may be true, but unless you approach potentially bad situations with great caution, your days could be numbered. Code yellow and EDC!

[Bawanna]

It may have been mandatory anytime there is a fatal shooting by an officer. Maybe they had to go by the book and through the motions. I doubt he was worried especially armed with the video.

Every cop has to do the hearing thing for just about any use of force. They live in a glass house and it really can't be any other way. This video certainly saved this officer alot of grief and explained alot. Should have been a very short hearing.
Even the officer who shot the man that killed the 4 Lakewood officers and was found with one of the officers guns in his waistband had to go thru a hearing. It would have been a medal award hearing had I any say but a hearing none the less. I'm just happy this officer came out a winner. A traffic stop is about the most hazardous thing an officer does, perhaps next to DV calls. I've had people complain because the officer stayed at the back of their door as they are trained or the officer didn't shake their hand when offered. Try to explain that not everyone is a solid good guy citizen a couple over the speed limit. Some complain that he had his hand on his gun when he approached, I say good for him. I know some officers that have small revolvers in their coat pocket with their hand on it when they approach. Ready to shoot thru the pocket if necessary. Good for them too. Its an ugly world out there, be ready.

[jocko]

bottom line it was a super video and one that might be used in training films down the road to. No doubt he might have did some things wrong (hindsight is always 20-20 to) but these officers make stop hundreds of times a week and complacncy can happen. Not sure one can train for every scenario either. I think he did an outstanding job of returning good fire and kudos to the G22 for giving him 14 hard hitting rounds to. Didn't take long for that back glass to dissapear either...

[OldLincoln]

1. I know my son really wanted to be an officer, but his mom and I are SO glad for the injury that forced him out of the academy. Every time I see an officer in the line of duty, I think of his/her parents. Every one is somebody's child. (PS: He discovered his engineering ability and his love for photography and has done well and is happy).

2. The officer fired 14 shots with 6 hitting the vehicle, a large target. The hit ratio (40%) is pretty consistent with police shootings I read about regularly. That's scary. My PM9 holds 6+1 so if my first 7 missed - and the bad guy was shooting back - I'd be digging out spare mags while being shot at but hopefully missed.

[cgo99]

1. I know my son really wanted to be an officer, but his mom and I are SO glad for the injury that forced him out of the academy. Every time I see an officer in the line of duty, I think of his/her parents. Every one is somebody's child. (PS: He discovered his engineering ability and his love for photography and has done well and is happy).

2. The officer fired 14 shots with 6 hitting the vehicle, a large target. The hit ratio (40%) is pretty consistent with police shootings I read about regularly. That's scary. My PM9 holds 6+1 so if my first 7 missed - and the bad guy was shooting back - I'd be digging out spare mags while being shot at but hopefully missed.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing. That's a 40% hit ratio for a well trained police officer, I can only imagine the hit ratio for a civilian not use to dealing with this situations on a daily bases and with a PM9 (6+1).
That is why I train as much as I can, there is no telling when or how is going to happen and what the end result is going to be.

[jocko]

also this was a night shoot also, so IMO that officer did one hell of a job defending himself and his return fire was two handed also,.

[Dietrich]

Thank God the SOB was so drunk he didn`t realize he had a spent shell in the chamber.That`s the only thing that kept that officer from a sure death.Pin a medal on him,promote him and give him a raise.I hope he doesn`t suffer from any trauma from this.You won`t find many more clear-cut cases of self defense but I have heard that some people have a lot of problems afterward.I wish him the best of luck.God,I hope I never have to shoot someone.

[wyntrout]

I doubt that he "missed" with all of those shots. He was shooting in line with the rear and front windows and possibly a few went through the broken areas in both without leaving countable holes, but I expect they figured that out. At least one found its mark, fortunately.
I just watched the news about a mugging in NYC where a good Samaritan came to the aid of a woman, got stabbed for his troubles, lay on the ground and bled to death FOR AN HOUR AND 20 MINUTES, while people walked by. One passerby even took a picture with his cell phone. The lady he aided didn't even call 911 or try to help him.
You have to consider personal injury when trying to help someone like that... and the BG may have buddies you haven't noticed. It's really sad that people can walk by like that and not notice that he's not napping... there must have been blood and a few must have witnessed the incident.
Wynn:confused:

[kahrseye]

I saw that report about the good samaritan who bled to death. It's very hard to believe someone couldn't make a lousy phone call to 911. That city needs to wake up.

[wyntrout]

Here's another weird thing:
Armed man arrested at NC airport as Obama departs - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100426/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_nc_airport_arrest)
Shades of Timothy McVey!

Wynn:rolleyes:

[jlottmc]

If I remember correctly, the UNSECURED areas (like parking lots etc.) it is still legal in NC to carry in those places. I know I have, of course I knew I was going to be stopping a couple of times in Durham too though.

[kahrseye]

Not sure about that but would be curious to know since I travel to NC on occasion.

[ripley16]

The main point the LEOs will be critical of when viewing this video as a training aid is that the officer forgot to retreat towards cover, mainly his car, while returning fire.

Also it's a good reminder as to why LEOs need to keep a change of underwear in the trunk. :o

The young man did well. It's hard to recreate how scared one gets in a gun incident. I've been in a total of four, only one with shots fired directly at me, and I reacted a little differently in all four. You never know... you just can't predict how well or poorly you'll perform.

[jlottmc]

I'll see if I can find my NC books and find out for sure. This is what I found right now. North Carolina Concealed Carry Permit Information (http://www.usacarry.com/north_carolina_concealed_carry_permit_information. html)

[kramm]

I think the officer did the only thing he could do inthat situation. I am concerened that the BG was talked to shortly before the confrontation by Police, and told not to drive. I think he should have been taken in for something at that time. The gun would have been found(more than likely) and the BG would have not died, but put away for awhile. jmo. Glad the leo is safe though.