Dawson Precision Night Sights on CW series

[Astocks2622]

does anyone have pics of a set of Dawson Night Sights on their CW series pistol? I'm trying to decide if it's worth the extra $60 for the Dawson's over the Trijicon version. what does the sight picture look like with the Dawson's?.
thanks.

[getsome]

Sorry I don't have a picture but have seen both but on PM pistols...I have Trijicons on my PM40 and love them...Real nice folks to deal with....Dawson makes some really nice sights as well, never bought from them but their work is first rate....If it were me I would go with the Trijicons and use the 60 bucks for practice ammo....Good luck and welcome to Kahr Talk...Real nice folks here willing to help a fellow Kahr shooter out any way we can....

[Crazy Ed]

I need to know what height Dawson tritium sight I need to order to go with the stock rear sight on my CW9. Anybody been there?

[Astocks2622]

sorry, I ended up getting the Trijicon sights. then my CW9 slam fired & Kaboomed... I no longer own a Kahr, & won't again.

[gb6491]

I need to know what height Dawson tritium sight I need to order to go with the stock rear sight on my CW9. Anybody been there?
Muggsy measured his CM9 front sight (CM/CW sights are the same) at .175" or 4.45mm (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=279597&postcount=2). I have a take off Kahr CW front sight and my measurement is similar to Muggsy's.
So, your looking at either the .170" or .180" tritium sights Dawson offers (https://www.dawsonprecision.com/CategoryProductList.jsp?cat=SIGHTS+FRONT%3AKahr+Fr ont+Sights:Kahr-CW+Stake+On+Front+Sights).
Note they only offer the .180" in the plain serrated and .160" or .180" in FO.


sorry, I ended up getting the Trijicon sights. then my CW9 slam fired & Kaboomed... I no longer own a Kahr, & won't again.
Would you please be so kind as to post in more detail what caused that? I'm sure a lot of folks here would be interested in the particulars.

Regards,
Greg

[Astocks2622]

Sure. I suppose just stating that it KB'd is a little inflammatory, so here's what happened.
As you may know, the Kahr design doesn't incorporate a striker return spring. the striker retracts back into the breech face after re-engaging the sear as the slide is traveling forward after firing.

I had been practicing drawing & dry-firing my CW-9. Once I was done, I attempted to load the gun (factory ammo), but it jammed. I noticed that the rim of the round was caught on the striker. I dropped the magazine, & racked the slide to clear the gun, but the slide slipped, chambering & firing the round, WITHOUT my finger anywhere near the trigger. The round did not make it all the way into the chamber before firing & burst, which blew off the side plate & extractor. I thank God that no one else was home, & that the gun was pointed in a safe direction, as it should always be. I'm also glad that the side plate acted as a pressure relief, & I came away with nothing but a bruise on my hand from where the side plate hit.

The design problem is that I could dry fire the gun (so the striker is exposed) then rack the slide far enough to strip a round from the mag, but not far enough to re-engage the sear. if you release the slide at this point, it is apparently possible for the gun to slam fire.

To be fair, Kahr repaired the gun under warranty, but they did not address the issue about why this was even possible.
I was really bummed, because the Kahr fit my needs perfectly. small enough to conceal, but large enough for me to control & fire accurately. If Kahr addresses the design problem, I will more than happily purchase another.


http://i39.tinypic.com/wsqkph.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/15g9r4g.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/sdjteb.jpg

[muggsy]

I doubt seriously that the problem could have happened as you described. The slide only has to move back 1/2" for the striker block to reset. To my knowledge there isn't a striker fired semi-auto made that has a spring to retract the striker. If the kaboom occurred as you suggest it was an operator error that caused the problem, not a design fault. You didn't cycle the action properly. I've only been around firearms for about 60 years, but from my experience most Kabooms are generally caused by bore obstructions or overcharges of powder.

[Astocks2622]

Perhaps operator error was part of the problem, as my hand did slip while racking the slide. you are right that I can't load a round without engaging the sear, I had that backwards in my head. You are also right that it only takes 1/2" of slide travel to re-engage the sear. when dry firing you can just rack the slide about 1/2" and let it forward to reset it. The issue is that the slide is almost fully back into battery before the sear re-engages, meaning that the striker has not retracted before the next round is being stripped from the magazine. If, after dry firing, you retract the slide fully, and slowly let it forward, the striker does not retract back into the breech face until the last 1/2" of travel.
thanks for helping me clear that up in my mind.

as to no other striker fired pistol having a striker return spring, technically you are correct. however, most of the other designs I looked at have some means of retracting the striker immediately after firing. the XD has something called a "striker dampening spring" (#30) which would allow the striker to protrude from the breech face enough to fire the weapon, but then immediately pushes it back in.

http://i42.tinypic.com/5djrqt.jpg

The M&P & XDS place their springs "in the middle" so that they can be compressed in either direction, meaning that as I pull the trigger, the striker moves to the rear, compressing the striker spring. When the trigger releases the striker, it moves forward, past it's "rest" location, compressing the spring again, but in the opposite direction. Again, this allows the striker to go forward just enough to protrude from the breechface & fire the weapon, but again, the striker immediately retracts because of spring pressure.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2re1ax2.gif

http://i40.tinypic.com/91mkyh.jpg

The Kahr design places the spring BEHIND the striker, where it cannot operate to retract the striker. the ONLY thing that retracts the striker is contact with the sear (trigger bar) as the slide returns to battery, after the round has been stripped from the magazine. In my case, the pin hit or dragged across the primer with enough force that it fired.

http://i39.tinypic.com/r8eb8m.jpg

if there isn't a design issue, I shouldn't be able to load the weapon in such a way as to get it to fire upon loading, as long as my finger, or anything else isn't on the trigger.

neither a bore obstruction nor a hot load could have caused the gun to fire without the trigger being pulled. the Kaboom came from the round being fired with the slide out of battery. it's got nothing to do with an over-pressure problem from an obstruction or over charge.

[gb6491]

Perhaps operator error was part of the problem, as my hand did slip while racking the slide. you are right that I can't load a round without engaging the sear, I had that backwards in my head. You are also right that it only takes 1/2" of slide travel to re-engage the sear. when dry firing you can just rack the slide about 1/2" and let it forward to reset it. The issue is that the slide is almost fully back into battery before the sear re-engages, meaning that the striker has not retracted before the next round is being stripped from the magazine. If, after dry firing, you retract the slide fully, and slowly let it forward, the striker does not retract back into the breech face until the last 1/2" of travel.
thanks for helping me clear that up in my mind.

as to no other striker fired pistol having a striker return spring, technically you are correct. however, most of the other designs I looked at have some means of retracting the striker immediately after firing. the XD has something called a "striker dampening spring" (#30) which would allow the striker to protrude from the breech face enough to fire the weapon, but then immediately pushes it back in.

http://i42.tinypic.com/5djrqt.jpg

The M&P & XDS place their springs "in the middle" so that they can be compressed in either direction, meaning that as I pull the trigger, the striker moves to the rear, compressing the striker spring. When the trigger releases the striker, it moves forward, past it's "rest" location, compressing the spring again, but in the opposite direction. Again, this allows the striker to go forward just enough to protrude from the breechface & fire the weapon, but again, the striker immediately retracts because of spring pressure.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2re1ax2.gif

http://i40.tinypic.com/91mkyh.jpg

The Kahr design places the spring BEHIND the striker, where it cannot operate to retract the striker. the ONLY thing that retracts the striker is contact with the sear (trigger bar) as the slide returns to battery, after the round has been stripped from the magazine. In my case, the pin hit or dragged across the primer with enough force that it fired.

http://i39.tinypic.com/r8eb8m.jpg

if there isn't a design issue, I shouldn't be able to load the weapon in such a way as to get it to fire upon loading, as long as my finger, or anything else isn't on the trigger.

neither a bore obstruction nor a hot load could have caused the gun to fire without the trigger being pulled. the Kaboom came from the round being fired with the slide out of battery. it's got nothing to do with an over-pressure problem from an obstruction or over charge.
Astocks2622,
Thanks for the time/effort involved with putting your two previous posts together.

I'd like to address something in this one first. It's true that the M&P design does have some spring driven striker rebound. However, the XD-S does not. It's striker can remain forward after being released. It may rebound back past the breech face through inertia, but not from spring pressure.
The same is true of Glock pistols (which also have their springs "in the middle").

Might I suggest, that instead of a design flaw, you could have had a defective/out of spec/dirty firearm and a unique set of circumstances that caused the case rupture.
That your gun initially jammed because the cartridge rim was stopped by striker suggests to me that there was a problem here. The striker is in no way locked/held forward in the slide in normal operation. A round feeding up the slide's breech face should have enough impetus to push the striker below the surface of the face. If that didn't happen in your pistol, I would suspect that the striker was out of spec (possibly over long), damaged or broken. That could also apply to the slide, striker spring, striker spring guide rod, striker guide, striker block, or striker block spring. Likewise dirt/debris/grime (especially in the striker tunnel) could be a player.

Were you able to find the primer to verify that it did have a striker hit?

Regards,
Greg

[Astocks2622]

A defective part is entirely a possibility. I assumed that because other kahr pistols that I have since had the opportunity to handle did the same thing (leaving the striker exposed until the slide returns forward) it was an inherent problem just waiting for the wrong set of circumstances. Maybe my striker was slightly longer or slightly oversize making it not retract as easily as it should. I had recently detail-stripped the gun & cleaned out the striker channel, so I don't think it could have been dirty. I never did find the primer, though that could have been helpful.
Kahr didn't say that they replaced the striker or any other fire-control components, & I would think they would check the measurements on something like this to determine the cause, but who knows? If I could verify that I had a bad part to start with, & could verify that another gun did not have the same problem, I'd buy another in a heartbeat.
I have personal experience with the M&P series, so assumed that the similar design in the striker spring in the XD-S & Glock meant similar function. In those designs, neither of the striker springs operate to retract the striker after firing? I guess you learn something new every day!

[muggsy]

The striker on a Kahr pistol is mechanically retracted by the cocking cam during the last 1/2" of forward slide travel when the slide is going back into battery. You can see the action in the cut away gun in this video. Once the striker block has reset there is no way in hell for the striker to come into contact with the primer. A design flaw did not cause the kaboom, period. And my name isn't Barack Obama. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYRHpolEC_Y&playnext=1&list=PL9C885DAED1AA2EC2&feature=results_main

[Astocks2622]

Well, I apologize for not only being an idiot, but a lying idiot too. I admitted that it might have been a defective part, & not an inherent design flaw.

I also apologize for only having 15 years of firearms experience, & a degree & experience in aircraft maintenance. I guess I don't have the experience or mechanical know-how to understand how something works. The FACT is the gun fired, without me pulling the trigger, before the round had been fully chambered. Sir, until now, I have taken your criticism in stride, considered if what you said had merit, & yes, learned from it. Please refrain from calling me a liar.

gb6491, I'm sorry this turned into a flaming match, & thanks for responding with understanding & respect.

[Biscuit]

This concerns me. Having just picked up my CW9, it's good information to keep in mind.

Now, even though I'm the new guy here, it would seem to me that if Astocks was trying to clear a jam and he let the slide slip, that it would be entirely possible for the striker to contact the round in question before the slide had returned fully into battery.

Yes, the striker retracts back into the slide during the last 1/2" of forward travel, but if the jammed round is sticking more than 1/2" out of the chamber, the primer could be contacted by the striker.

So.... If the round is all the way in the chamber and the slide slips, all should be fine.
But if a round would happen to be hanging out of the chamber and the slide were released onto it.... possible kaboom.

I'm not hypothesizing as to where the blame belongs for this, but Astocks claim seems entirely reasonable to me.

[muggsy]

Well, I apologize for not only being an idiot, but a lying idiot too. I admitted that it might have been a defective part, & not an inherent design flaw.

I also apologize for only having 15 years of firearms experience, & a degree & experience in aircraft maintenance. I guess I don't have the experience or mechanical know-how to understand how something works. The FACT is the gun fired, without me pulling the trigger, before the round had been fully chambered. Sir, until now, I have taken your criticism in stride, considered if what you said had merit, & yes, learned from it. Please refrain from calling me a liar.

gb6491, I'm sorry this turned into a flaming match, & thanks for responding with understanding & respect.


No one was flaming you. You were flaming Kahr pistols. Doing that on the Kahr website goes over about as well as a ripe fart in an elevator. There is no way for what you described to have happened. No one's called you a liar. You're probably just mistaken. If anything the kaboom it was caused by defective ammo and not a defective gun.

[jocko]

This concerns me. Having just picked up my CW9, it's good information to keep in mind.

Now, even though I'm the new guy here, it would seem to me that if Astocks was trying to clear a jam and he let the slide slip, that it would be entirely possible for the striker to contact the round in question before the slide had returned fully into battery.

Yes, the striker retracts back into the slide during the last 1/2" of forward travel, but if the jammed round is sticking more than 1/2" out of the chamber, the primer could be contacted by the striker.

So.... If the round is all the way in the chamber and the slide slips, all should be fine.
But if a round would happen to be hanging out of the chamber and the slide were released onto it.... possible kaboom.

I'm not hypothesizing as to where the blame belongs for this, but Astocks claim seems entirely reasonable to me.

anything is possable but that striker is just laying in that striker channel until it is cocked by he cocking cam.Yes it might protrude out the breech face but ANY pressure and the striker retracts as it is free with zero hindrance. IMO it just ain't goona be a cuplrit in a kaboom. Not defending kahr but I am defending the way it is made and thge safety behind this gun.

[jocko]

I think glocks hav ethe spring in front of their strker but their striker system is really different also. I stand corrected if that statement is not right either.

But ur right about one thing, U cannot load a round out of the magazine without the cocking cam engaging the striker. It merely take a 1/4" to recock the striker. Kahr is never gonna tellyou what really happened either. If they said it was user error u would not be hapy, if rthey said it was a defective gun, u would want to know more. Not sure they really hav eto detail what they did either. We all like to know but doesn't mean we have that right to know. they fixed it, so just shoot it like u stole it. There is IMO no design flaw in kahrs trigger/striker system. Actually one of the simpliest striker systems I have ever seen....