Thoughts on the CM9 feed issues

[D78999]

I have a little time, before I head to the range. I intend to give my new CM9 a real workout today - to try and finish the "break-in" process. I have put 80 rounds through it to date and I expect to pass 200 today.

I have had the 6th round feeding issue (nose-diving) from the beginning. So, I have been trying some things to remedy the situation. Using the slide release, as recommended by Kahr, helps, but does not produce complete reliability.

The feed ramp in these little pistols is VERY steep, as it no doubt MUST be.....there is no room for a more relaxed angle. The feed ramp is the entire "secret" of Glock feed reliability - an undercut chamber (which allows for a longer feed ramp) with a feed ramp angle as flat as possible. No room for such a thing in the little CM9/ PM9. So, I polished the feed ramp on my CM9. That changed nothing.

Early on, I realized that the mag spring was very tight when loading to the maximum (6 rounds, in this case). The mag spring was obviously closing completely, making it much more difficult to get the 6th round in. So, I took 1 full coil off the mag springs. This helped, though two coils might be better (but, I will see how things go as the gun is fully broken in, first).

Of course, I de-burred the magazine catch slot in the magazines, as well as going over the edges of the mag lips lightly with a file. I also worked over the magazine followers with fine sandpaper, to eliminate any binding. No help there.

I found, in testing my CM9, that holding my little finger under the magazine and applying upward pressure when racking the slide or sling-shoting it (with 6th rounds in the mag) solves the feeding issue. So, that will now be SOP for me, from now on. The mags have about 1/8" of play in the mag well, with the slide OPEN....and the mag sitting too low seems to contribute to the problem.

As for the recoil spring, I noticed that the spec'd (and provided) spring for this little pistol is an 18 lb. one - quite strong for such as small pistol, even with 9mm. Of course, Kahr specifies a strong spring because most people with these pistols just buy off-the shelf defense loads for them....and such rounds tend to be loaded hot (as well as +P and +P+ ammo, which some insist on using). But, for general use (I NEVER load that hot, myself)....I wonder if a slightly lighter spring might work OK. These small pistols are more susceptible to the effects of "limp-wristing" (than heavier ones) - and a moderately loaded cartridge has a lot to overcome with an 18 lb. recoil spring. I found that a spare 15 lb. S&W spring, that I had on hand, would fit just fine, if shortened. So, I will test BOTH today.

To sum up: the real, overriding issue with feeding problems in the Kahr CM9/PM9 pistols is obviously the very steep feed ramp angle. If this could be changed to a lesser angle, the problem would probably disappear altogether. The feed ramp angle is a compromise, to be sure. No room in these little pistols for a long, soft slope - and there's the rub. I do NOT believe that the problem lies with engineering or production quality of these pistols, but rather, only the compromise that had to be made with the feed ramp. After all, this sort of thing is not unknown - 3" "officer" sized 1911s are infamous for feed issues, because the necessary operations have to be accomplished in such a short length. The same applies here. As of yet, I have not come up with a complete solution. But, I am not worried. The pistol IS a quality piece, of that I have no doubts. It just needs a wee bit of "tweaking", as well as some common sense applied to the operation of it.

I'll report back, especially if I find anything that might be useful to the group.

[jocko]

nuttin wrongwith the feed ramps IMO, u just got a finicky kahr and there is sumpin upsetting the timing of the gun. Not sure about the lighter recoil spring thing doin any good either but ur not gonna hurt anything byu trying. If u took a file tothe mag feed lips surely u smoothed it out with some fine grit paper after that to. Is this the only magazine u have for this gun??? Do others do the samething. If u have an extra outter mag spring, just cout off one coil and test. At one time kahr made a lady PM9 which was basicaly astock PM9 with a 16# spring in it, so ur not gonna hurt anything. Awell broken in and smoothed out kahr might get by with a 16# spring but a new kahr that is tight might not feed well. It is all about perfect timing and ur working on it but ur not there yet. taking more coils off the mag spring might indeed make it asier to oad the magazine but again it might also slow down that magazine follower on the last round from presenting a round and also from locking open to. again it is all about timing and a magazine spring is part of the timing sequence. But aht weing said the worst u can do is ruin a spring, the best u can do is maybe fix ur issue.

What might fix ur gun, I do hope the forum members realize that ones fix for his gun is not a fix for ur gun, but it is something to always keep in the back of ur mind if your gun is giving issues such as posted..

How many actual coils is in ur cm9 recoil spring??? They use dto be factory 15 then kahr finaly relized that many could not get a new spring in the gun and had issues, so they went to the new standard 13 coil 18# spring. Which by the way u can now order them from wolffs gunsprings under the PM9 listings.. They offer factory weight of18 and a heavier weight of 20#, soetimes that 20# spring helps with feed issues..

[muggsy]

I wouldn't do anything to that CM9 until you've gone through the break-in period, except to clean and lube it generously. If you're still having feeding problems try a different brand of ammo first. Don't use the under powered, dirty, bargain basement ammo. Run in on good quality ball ammo during the break-in. Check your spent cases for scratch marks. If you find them scratched smooth the feed lips of the magazine using some fine emery cloth. If you're still experiencing feeding problems after 200 rounds post again.

[scosgt]

Some Kahrs just seem to be lemons.
After 3 PSL's in the first 200 rounds, my CM40 has been perfect function wise. It would not feed Fiocchi TEWB or whatever it is ammo, but works with every hollowpoint I have tried - Win 180 Bonded JHP, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger 135 GR JHP, and all the ball ammo (aside from the aforementioned Fiocchi, which I could not even get to feed on the first round).
My MK-9 was a lemon that had a PSL problem that could not be cured. It happens.

[scosgt]

Must add, when the gun was new I needed to tape the slide lock out with a plastic hammer and dig it out with a screwdriver. Now that I have several hundred rounds though the gun I can remove it with my hands. They DO break in.

[D78999]

I never suggested that my CM9 is a "lemon"....or anything like that. Quite the contrary. I only spoke about the full magazine mis-feed issue. That issue, whether anyone agrees or not, IS due to the really steep feed ramp angle. Nevertheless, that in no way makes the pistol a "lemon".

By the way, I don't shoot "white box", or any other commercial ammo, cheap or otherwise. Only hand loads. I have been hand loading for about 15 years.

As I said before, as if anyone actually read what I said, since I started wrapping my little finger under the mag, while chambering the first round from a full magazine (what I call my "little finger trick"), I have had NO mis-feeds.

I shot about 170 rounds today, at 12 and 25 yards. NO problems, accuracy was amazing for such a small pistol, and the gun was a pleasure to shoot.

I tried both the 15 lb. recoil spring and the standard 18 lb.....and there was no real functional difference. However, the feel was a bit different. With the 15 lb spring, recoil seemed a bit sharper, though still not unpleasant. So, the 18 lb. spring will stay in the gun.

So as of this afternoon, I have about 240 rounds through the CM9. The full magazine mis-feed continues as before, with whatever ammo I've tried (multiple bullet types in my hand loads), UNLESS I use my "little finger trick".

Regardless, I LIKE the CM9 very much. It is a keeper, regardless of the one issue. As soon as I put a few more rounds through it, if no other problems come up, then I intend to make it my EDC.

[RevRay]

I'll bet even that mis-feed problem will sort itself out eventually. These Kahrs tend to just get better and better. In fact, the best way to find a good Kahr cheap is to buy anything you see on Gunbroker or Armlist that says that it has only like 50 to 100 rounds through it. It's somebody's new Kahr that they didn't break in ... in just another 200-300 rounds it will be just fine. When I first bought my "used" CM9 about 4 months ago, I killed my fingers trying to get the slide stop out. Now, I could get it out blindfolded it's so easy.

[CJB]

You say you have a 6th round feeding issue? But you're describing a 2nd round feeding issue. Some clarity please!~

You're mistaken about the Kahr ramp, and here's how you can see for yourself. Take the pistol apart. Mount the barrel to the frame using the slide stop pin. No slide on the frame of course..... Now take a magazine with one round in it, and seat the magazine. Push the barrel all the way backward and down. Thats how it sits at the beginning of the feeding cycle. See the releationship of the top round to the chamber?

Nuff said.

[scosgt]

I never suggested that my CM9 is a "lemon"....or anything like that. Quite the contrary. I only spoke about the full magazine mis-feed issue. That issue, whether anyone agrees or not, IS due to the really steep feed ramp angle. Nevertheless, that in no way makes the pistol a "lemon".

By the way, I don't shoot "white box", or any other commercial ammo, cheap or otherwise. Only hand loads. I have been hand loading for about 15 years.

As I said before, as if anyone actually read what I said, since I started wrapping my little finger under the mag, while chambering the first round from a full magazine (what I call my "little finger trick"), I have had NO mis-feeds.

I shot about 170 rounds today, at 12 and 25 yards. NO problems, accuracy was amazing for such a small pistol, and the gun was a pleasure to shoot.

I tried both the 15 lb. recoil spring and the standard 18 lb.....and there was no real functional difference. However, the feel was a bit different. With the 15 lb spring, recoil seemed a bit sharper, though still not unpleasant. So, the 18 lb. spring will stay in the gun.

So as of this afternoon, I have about 240 rounds through the CM9. The full magazine mis-feed continues as before, with whatever ammo I've tried (multiple bullet types in my hand loads), UNLESS I use my "little finger trick".

Regardless, I LIKE the CM9 very much. It is a keeper, regardless of the one issue. As soon as I put a few more rounds through it, if no other problems come up, then I intend to make it my EDC.

D78, it is NOT supposed to work like that.
The first thing I would do is get a couple of boxes of factory ammo and see what that does. You should NOT be carrying reloads anyway, both for legal liability reasons (they tried to hang Zimmerman for his "hair trigger" and "extra round in the chamber" on his Keltec) because if you ever use it they will say you made "super loads" to kill people, and for reliability, because a shootout would be a really bad time to have a case split or a squib or a not fully seated primer.
No comment on your reloading prowess, just speaking common sense.

That being said, if factory ball or JHP feeds properly, you have an issue with your rounds. There is very little space inside a Kahr, and a little off on the OAL or shape of the bullet makes all the difference in the world.

Again, it should and must feed off the top of the mag. If factory ammo won't feed, send it to Kahr to be fixed. Your issue is unacceptable on a defense gun. What if it jams or you get a dud, and you need to do a clearing drill? You won't be able to get the gun back into service. NO GOOD.

[CJB]

Early on, I realized that the mag spring was very tight when loading to the maximum (6 rounds, in this case). The mag spring was obviously closing completely, making it much more difficult to get the 6th round in. So, I took 1 full coil off the mag springs.

My God, your another Einstein!~ At the rate you're going, you'll graduate from just being a Kahr Engineer to owning the entire god damned company someday! If only they had somebody like you already, they'd have gotten it right, and saved countless folks from greif.

Let me give this for you to consider. Consider how little the breach face moves backward in its cycle, beyond that point which will allow a cartridge to rise up to the feeding point at the lips of the magazine. The slid overtravel, as well as the speed of the slide, combine to determine how much time the cartridge has to rise. If the cartridge rises too slowly, then there are problems... as its not in place when the slide strips it into the chamber.

My question to you, Albert, is as follows: Do you suppose that a cut, shortened magazine spring will push those cartridges faster, or will it push those cartridges more slowly?

[scosgt]

What a meanie!

[CJB]

Sarcasm often tends to serve the purpose of illustration most clearly.

[codegeek]

Here in the south, we have a different word for it... Nosediving is, evidently, a problem across kahr's entire product line. For me, it was the ridge on the follower that forced the nose of the round down, after the hump. Funny, those POS Promag magazines, work flawlessly.

[D78999]

" You say you have a 6th round feeding issue? But you're describing a 2nd round feeding issue. Some clarity please!~

You're mistaken about the Kahr ramp, and here's how you can see for yourself. Take the pistol apart. Mount the barrel to the frame using the slide stop pin. No slide on the frame of course..... Now take a magazine with one round in it, and seat the magazine. Push the barrel all the way backward and down. Thats how it sits at the beginning of the feeding cycle. See the releationship of the top round to the chamber? "


No, I said I have a feeding issue with the FIRST round, if FULLY loading the magazine. To make it simple for you.....the FIRST round. Got it ?

No, I'm not "mistaken". Anecdotal crap, such as "look at this, it seems like that", such as you said in your second paragraph (quoted above) proves nothing - and in fact, amounts to nothing - just empty blather.

I'll make it SIMPLE for you. The top round in the magazine, IF a full magazine, is held too tightly against the magazine lips, because the mag spring is too long in it's standard form (the coils close completely, or almost completely, before the last round is in). This causes the TOP round (again, IF from a FULL magazine) to strip from the mag at the wrong angle, thus nosing into the feed ramp. The feed ramp is so steep that said round is unable to slide up the ramp....and free itself. So, the round jams against the feed ramp and the force of the recoil spring, trying to close the slide, only makes it worse.

This happens with MY CM9, EVERY TIME NO MATTER the bullet shape used (I've tested everything EXCEPT a semi- wadcurtter, which logic tells me probably wouldn't be a good choice). IF however, I wrap my little finger UNDER the magazine and apply upward pressure as I release the slide or rack it, then the magazine moves up in the well, when the slide is open, just enough to prevent the jam - and the gun feeds just fine.

The feed jam problem, I'll say for the LAST time, ONLY occurs with the TOP round in the mag - IF the mag is FULLY loaded (6 rounds). That is further evidence that the spring pressure on the top round in the mag is too great.

[D78999]

" D78, it is NOT supposed to work like that.
The first thing I would do is get a couple of boxes of factory ammo and see what that does. You should NOT be carrying reloads anyway, both for legal liability reasons (they tried to hang Zimmerman for his "hair trigger" and "extra round in the chamber" on his Keltec) because if you ever use it they will say you made "super loads" to kill people, and for reliability, because a shootout would be a really bad time to have a case split or a squib or a not fully seated primer.
No comment on your reloading prowess, just speaking common sense.

That being said, if factory ball or JHP feeds properly, you have an issue with your rounds. There is very little space inside a Kahr, and a little off on the OAL or shape of the bullet makes all the difference in the world.

Again, it should and must feed off the top of the mag. If factory ammo won't feed, send it to Kahr to be fixed. Your issue is unacceptable on a defense gun. What if it jams or you get a dud, and you need to do a clearing drill? You won't be able to get the gun back into service. NO GOOD. "




First of all, all of the blather about "you'll get in legal trouble with reloads" is internet paranoid CONJECTURE. I've heard more than enough of it - so do me a favor and stow it someplace else, OK ? Thanks for your concern, if that's what it is - but I don't need the lecture.

Howis it that you somehow think that "factory" ammo will feed any better than reloads ? Not a reloader, are you ? Evidently not, as you don't seem to understand that a reloader can duplicate ANY factory ammo, with the right components. "Factory ball" ??? Simply round nosed, jacketed bullets. I have already tested (as I've already stated) every bullet shape available for 9mm, except the notoriously difficult to feed semi-wadcutter. So, I am WAY past your point, OK ?

The reason the TOP round in the mag won't feed, IF the mag is fully loaded....is for reasons stated in my previous post, period. "Factory ball" ammo or not, is NOT the point.

[CJB]

I have had the 6th round feeding issue (nose-diving) from the beginning.



Well, you're the genius, and I'm just a guy who reads just a little better than Crayon Martins girl friend.

By cutting the magazine spring, you've only kicked the can down the road.

I find it amusing once again where a person will come on board, describe and issue inconsistantly, say how they've modified the pistol, pick apart the design, make direct or indirect reference to using questionable ammunition, etc etc and then ask for advice - after they're already stated their own case for the situtations conclusion.

Do you realize there are threads on this forum quite litereally making light parody of such situations. And ... I can see why.

And where does this all end up? First - there still exists an unresolved problem. Second - Kahr will say the gun was altered, possibly voiding their excellent warranty. Third - the person who had a problem goes away mad because of the undoing of their own devise. And, Fourth - said person goes on to spew the outrageousness of Kahr and how their firearms will suck until the end of time, all over the internet.

What have I missed here?

[D78999]

" Let me give this for you to consider. Consider how little the breach face moves backward in its cycle, beyond that point which will allow a cartridge to rise up to the feeding point at the lips of the magazine. The slid overtravel, as well as the speed of the slide, combine to determine how much time the cartridge has to rise. If the cartridge rises too slowly, then there are problems... as its not in place when the slide strips it into the chamber."



Do you know ANYTHING about springs ? Anything at all.....except that they are "springy" ? I doubt it. You are what we refer to as an "anecdotal engineer" (one who thinks he has it all figured out, just by looking at something....and deciding that it "seems" this way or that). Not scientific, not proper engineering practice, not even common sense. Just DUMB.

A linear wound spring, which is the type found in the magazines in question, compresses and extends at EXACTLY the SAME rate, in both time and force, whether it varies in length by one coil or not, unless other forces acting upon it change in some way (such as a change in friction of the follower against the mag tube, for example). I certainly understand what you are getting at, better than YOU do in fact, but you are WRONG. The standard spring length in the "9-6" magazine, is too long, thus jamming up the top round. It is what it is - and your not believing it, or more likely not understanding it, changes NOTHING.


" Sarcasm often tends to serve the purpose of illustration most clearly."


Illustration of WHAT ?....... that you are an IDIOT ?

[CJB]

oh well... i guess i just have all wrong albert. You can cut your own spring as much as you want.

I am a *******. An illiterate one at that.

I did miss something. Character assasination.

Please continue, but do so without my advice, as you already know it all. I'm done with this thread. I'd rather go hang on the parody of this situation.

[D78999]

" By cutting the magazine spring, you've only kicked the can down the road.

I find it amusing once again where a person will come on board, describe and issue inconsistantly, say how they've modified the pistol, pick apart the design, make direct or indirect reference to using questionable ammunition, etc etc and then ask for advice - after they're already stated their own case for the situtations conclusion."


No, what I've done is make MY CM9 function BETTER, as evidenced by the 170 rounds I went through today, with ZERO failures.

Your second paragraph, as quoted above, doesn't even rate a reply - so I'll ignore it - as further ravings of an idiot.

By the way, everything I've posted on this forum, since joining a couple of days ago, was posted merely to share information. I never once asked anyone's advice. I have never said ONE word that disparages Kahr in any way - that is a figment of your imagination. In fact, I've said that I LIKE the pistol.....and that it is "a keeper". I've also alluded to it being a quality gun.

Your reading skills, CJB, are VERY suspect.

Finally, I must say that my coming here has been, up to now, a pleasant experience. Obviously, there is an A-HOLE (CJB, in this case) in every crowd.
But, that shouldn't change my opinion of the whole group - and it doesn't.

[D78999]

" I did miss something. Character assasination."


YOU are the one who started with the insults, twerp......I only "returned fire".

[scosgt]

" D78, it is NOT supposed to work like that.
The first thing I would do is get a couple of boxes of factory ammo and see what that does. You should NOT be carrying reloads anyway, both for legal liability reasons (they tried to hang Zimmerman for his "hair trigger" and "extra round in the chamber" on his Keltec) because if you ever use it they will say you made "super loads" to kill people, and for reliability, because a shootout would be a really bad time to have a case split or a squib or a not fully seated primer.
No comment on your reloading prowess, just speaking common sense.

That being said, if factory ball or JHP feeds properly, you have an issue with your rounds. There is very little space inside a Kahr, and a little off on the OAL or shape of the bullet makes all the difference in the world.

Again, it should and must feed off the top of the mag. If factory ammo won't feed, send it to Kahr to be fixed. Your issue is unacceptable on a defense gun. What if it jams or you get a dud, and you need to do a clearing drill? You won't be able to get the gun back into service. NO GOOD. "




First of all, all of the blather about "you'll get in legal trouble with reloads" is internet paranoid CONJECTURE. I've heard more than enough of it - so do me a favor and stow it someplace else, OK ? Thanks for your concern, if that's what it is - but I don't need the lecture.

Howis it that you somehow think that "factory" ammo will feed any better than reloads ? Not a reloader, are you ? Evidently not, as you don't seem to understand that a reloader can duplicate ANY factory ammo, with the right components. "Factory ball" ??? Simply round nosed, jacketed bullets. I have already tested (as I've already stated) every bullet shape available for 9mm, except the notoriously difficult to feed semi-wadcutter. So, I am WAY past your point, OK ?

The reason the TOP round in the mag won't feed, IF the mag is fully loaded....is for reasons stated in my previous post, period. "Factory ball" ammo or not, is NOT the point.

Actually, you are quite insulting to people who are trying to help you. And strange as it may sound to you, I have been reloading since 1971. So I know a tiny bit about it.

BUT, more importantly, I have had several conversations with Kahr in regards to feeding in the PM9/MK9. Your analysis is totally wrong. In the Kahr, the rounds do NOT slide up the feed ramp. Rather, they HIT the feed ramp and more or less bounce in. I know that sounds strange, but you in fact mentioned the "angles" and in fact you are correct. There is nothing you can do to make that round "slide" up the ramp. It just does not work that way.

In fact, take a good look. The ramp is offset. That's right, it is not dead center. So yes, it is not a shock that a Kahr has a feeding problem.

The reason you need to try factory ammo is simple. You have to eliminate all possible issues, one at a time, to arrive at the answer.

Since you state that getting your finger under the mag seems to make a difference, I am thinking you have a worn or out of spec mag catch. The mag is not being held high enough in the frame. You frame could even be out of spec. It happens.

So instead of trashing everyone who tries to help, take a deep breath and find the solution.

[Popeye]

Before you go cutting, grinding, filing , sanding, or squeezing anything. Try this it won't cost you a dime. Load the mag, and then tap the mag a couple times on its back down on a flat surface to make sure all the rounds are set tight to the rear of the mag. I know we're all supposed to know, and do this, but many either don't know, or don't do it. All you have to do is go to any range watch people reload they're mags, and you'll see this is true. Speed loaders are nice and they are fast but can often cause problems with the rounds not being seated all the way to the rear of the mag. Rounds not seated all the way to the rear of the mag will often cause chambering, and ejecting problems. This is not only true with pistols, but goes all the way back to the M1 Garand.

[D78999]

" Actually, you are quite insulting to people who are trying to help you. And strange as it may sound to you, I have been reloading since 1971. So I know a tiny bit about it.

BUT, more importantly, I have had several conversations with Kahr in regards to feeding in the PM9/MK9. Your analysis is totally wrong. In the Kahr, the rounds do NOT slide up the feed ramp. Rather, they HIT the feed ramp and more or less bounce in. I know that sounds strange, but you in fact mentioned the "angles" and in fact you are correct. There is nothing you can do to make that round "slide" up the ramp. It just does not work that way.

In fact, take a good look. The ramp is offset. That's right, it is not dead center. So yes, it is not a shock that a Kahr has a feeding problem.

The reason you need to try factory ammo is simple. You have to eliminate all possible issues, one at a time, to arrive at the answer.

Since you state that getting your finger under the mag seems to make a difference, I am thinking you have a worn or out of spec mag catch. The mag is not being held high enough in the frame. You frame could even be out of spec. It happens.

So instead of trashing everyone who tries to help, take a deep breath and find the solution."



Scosgt,

First of all, I will apologize to you regarding the tone of my post, to which you replied with the quoted material above. Unfortunately, I was pissed at that other guy, when I answered you. I was out of line.

However, I do not and will not apologize in any way to "that other guy". He is an ass - and started the trouble. I didn't come here for a fight - and didn't create one. I will say that your characterization of my "trashing everyone who tries to help" is inaccurate - a gross overgeneralization.

More than enough said about all of that, though, so moving on.....



I am in fact aware of how a magazine-fed firearm feeds. My mention of the rounds "sliding up the feed ramp" was made ONLY in the context of the first round jam....that the first round, after nose-diving and jamming against the feed ramp, can't slide up the surface of the ramp and at least free itself from the jam, because the feed ramp is nearly vertical. In this case, the feed ramp serves as more of a wall, than a ramp. Even if the round, in this context, was able to "slide up the ramp" , it still wouldn't feed properly, in all probability, because it would, by that time, be out of position vis a vis the slide. In any event, my using the words "sliding up the ramp" was NOT intended to convey the idea that the nose of the bullet should or normally would contact the ramp and "slide up" for normal feeding.

In fact, if things go as they are supposed to, in this or any other magazine fed firearm, the round being stripped from the top of the magazine is supposed to be already correctly oriented to enter the chamber.....and actually jump the gap between the magazine and the entrance to the chamber. The feed ramp is ONLY ever designed to serve as a bit of a back up, if the nose of the round is slightly out of position.

In this particular context however, as I have stated repeatedly, the CM9 feed ramp is set at so steep an angle that it cannot correct the "trajectory" of a mis-feeding round, as the ramp in larger guns will. That is simply due to the lack of space available.

Mis-feeding, of course (to state the obvious), STARTS in the magazine. If the top round is not oriented correctly, as it leaves the magazine, then mis-feeding is very likely to occur. The fact that, in my CM9, the top-most round, if the magazine is full, nose-dives and is thus NOT oriented correctly as it leaves the magazine - happens for a reason. The reason lies in the magazine. When, as it was in this case, it is very hard to load the last round into the magazine, yet inserting the previous rounds is not difficult, that suggests that the force being applied to the last round is excessive. As indeed, it WAS, in this case. The specified length of the magazine spring was simply too long, and the coils of the spring did not have enough room in the base of the magazine body. So, the spring coils collapsed against each other, thus greatly increasing the force required to insert the last round.

It is NEVER desirable to have spring coils close against each other completely, during the operation of a coil spring. In fact, in most high-stress applications, this will tend to cause the spring to fracture. A good commonplace example of this is coil springs used in automobile suspensions. Bottoming out, such that the spring coils close completely, is something the engineers try to prevent from happening in all cases - this is why bump-stops are employed.

I remedied that issue by removing 1 coil from the bottom of the mag springs. Now, the coils do not nest against each other....and the force required to insert the last round into the mags is not excessive. Nor is the force being applied to the top round (when the magazine is FULL) now excessive, as it was before. "Timing" problems with this, as suggested by another, are not part of the equation here. That was proven yesterday, when I put 170 + rounds through the pistol, with NO jams (as long as I used my "little finger trick" on the FIRST round from a full mag.

As I have stated before, several times, the feed jam problem in my CM9 ONLY occurs with the FIRST round, IF feeding from a FULL magazine. Never otherwise.

However, some other glitch remains, otherwise the first round feed issue would have disappeared altogether. Perhaps it is a problem with the angle of the trough in the top surface of the mag follower, as asserted by someone else on this forum, who has taken to modifying his follower angles. I don't know - it bears more investigation, though off-hand, I'd say he probably is exactly right.

I am also quite well aware that the feed ramp in the PM9/CM9 pistols is (the way it is) due to necessity - and I stated exactly that in a previous post. There certainly isn't much room to work with in these little guns. That is why I am not upset with Kahr over this. This problem (with my pistol) may only be due to production tolerances.

As for "factory ammo", I still won't buy it - literally. The only issues we are talking about here, as regards possible contributions of ammo, are bullet SHAPE and seating DEPTH (or OAL). Since you are a reloader, after all, you are obviously familiar with these terms. Factory ammo would provide nothing in the way of uniqueness for this purpose - and given the current prices, would simply be a waste of money. Surely you can understand that, since you are an experienced reloader. I can duplicate any configuration of such ammo, with reloads. In fact, one of the avenues I will pursue, as regards this very issue, is experimentation with varying the seating depth. As it happens, all of my hand loads, set up for my other, larger pistols, functioned just FINE in the CM9 yesterday. So, it appears that I have nothing to gain from seating
depth changes. Nevertheless, I will do a bit of experimentation.

Your suggestion about my magazine catch (or frame) possibly being out of spec seems a good one. In fact, that is the first cogent idea I've seen here, in addressing this issue. Unfortunately, there is no way for me to find out, without sending the CM9 back to Kahr. Even then, it might make no difference. But, I will consider it.



Popeye:

Thanks for the idea/ suggestion. But, I have been slapping magazines, to ensure the rounds are seated against the back wall of the mag body.....since I was trained to do this in the Army....a long time ago. SOP it is.....and I ALWAYS do it.

Along those lines, I would like to ask of you (or anyone else here on the forum) : with the slide locked OPEN, on your CM9/ PM9, how much can the magazine be moved vertically, when it is locked into place ? I can push the mag in my pistol upward, further into the mag well, approximately 0.052"....or a little less than 1/16". This does not seem excessive to me, but.... for feeding that first round (from a full mag) - it makes ALL the difference.

[D78999]

With (the magazine hanging low in the mag well) idea in mind, I would like to ask those reading this : how much additional distance can you push your mags upward, with the slide locked open, on YOUR CM9/ PM9 ? With my CM9, there is approximately an additional 0.052" of play.....or somewhat less than 1/16" (0.0625"). Quite a small amount, but in my pistol, it makes ALL the difference.

If I push the mag up (to close this dimension), while feeding the first round from a full magazine, the result is NO feed jamb. NO nose-diving round.....NO problem....EVERY TIME. If I don't, then the first round nose-dives (and jams) every time.

[D78999]

OK, one last post. I know that most of you don't care, don't believe me, or think I have committed some grand heresy - well fine. I'll share this last bit of information, in the hope that it will help someone else - and then be on my way.



The full magazine feed issue with my CM9 is now solved. Very simple, as I expected, the real root cause of the problem is excessive magazine spring pressure, which jams the last round too hard against the magazine lips. As a result, the first round out of a FULL magazine invariably would nose-dive and jam against the feed ramp. I found a temporary solution, simply by holding the magazine up in the feed well, by wrapping my little finger under the mag - while chambering the first round.

That, however, was not a final solution. I had already removed ONE full coil from the magazine spring, in hopes that this would reduce the excess spring pressure against the top round. It DID improve things, though it did not solve the problem completely. So, today I removed a 2ND coil from the mag spring. VOILA - PROBLEM SOLVED. I have tested my CM9 this afternoon, 120 times, 60 by hand racking the slide from the closed position.... and 60 by sling-shoting it from the locked open position. The ammo I used is the same as I fired yesterday, at the range - 125 grain truncated cone/ flat point. I used this ammo for test purposes because such a bullet shape is the most likely to give feed problems - in other words, a worse-case test. I also tested 30 times with my jacketed HP carry ammo. I will test at least 50 more cycles with the HP carry ammo, before the next time I get to the range. However, I can say, at this point, that the problem is solved. NOT ONE feed problem has occurred, since removing the 2nd mag spring coil. I now have NO need to lift up on the magazine - so all of my testing this afternoon has been done without that.

So, there it is. Believe it, don't believe it, whatever.....I don't care. I hope that someone, at some point, benefits from this information. After all, that is what this kind of forum is for, is it not ?

In the meantime, I have decided that I don't need the grief from arguing with certain people who won't deal with reality, for whatever reason.

So, goodbye. Moderators - feel free to delete my registration forthwith.

[jocko]

I sure spent alot o ftime trying to hlep u out and at no time di d I insult anything u did either. I do kind of take offense to ur attitude on this maybe your last post.although most of my suggestiosto you were not successful ones either, the cutting of the second coil was also suggested to you by me as sumpin to try, although not a fan of cutting mag coils in ur case it seems to work

Sometimes a fix can be found by circumventing the issue itself and doing something to offset it. Not a good way to do things but for some it works ok for them. Most al lthe forum members here that I read seemed to want to help you as berst possable, normaly when one cops an attitute it produces a reverse attitufe then it is all down hill after that.

If u walk with a limp in the left leg u can just shorten the right leg to even it out, and u can call it a fix but in reality the issue is still there but in disquise..

U got the gun runninbg right, glad for that,if u sodecide to leaveas you stated, then IMO u never really bel0onged here in the first place.

[scosgt]

Last year I ordered some mag springs from Kahr for my MK-9. The springs they sent were way too long, you could not possibly stuff them into the mags and load more than three rounds.
So I called Kahr, and they not only swore to me they sent the right springs, but they maintained that they are all the same!

So it is far from impossible that Kahr installed the wrong springs in his mags and his solution is actually the correct one.

[codegeek]

I am glad you found it. Often times, different solutions work for different people. I have an extra follower and seven round spring. It would be interesting to try your theory on my CW9.

No need to take off. This forum doesn't have the same ambiance as some of the better forums, but there are good people here (with the appropriate bell curve number of :censored:).

[jocko]

Last year I ordered some mag springs from Kahr for my MK-9. The springs they sent were way too long, you could not possibly stuff them into the mags and load more than three rounds.
So I called Kahr, and they not only swore to me they sent the right springs, but they maintained that they are all the same!

So it is far from impossible that Kahr installed the wrong springs in his mags and his solution is actually the correct one.

correct in ur assmption to. but we really don't know that for sure. We have read befrore of 7 rund mags springs bein shortened a and good results.

All kahr magazines come to them fully assembled from the vendor, Anything can happen..:Amflag2:

[Bawanna]

Wow! How did I miss all this when things have been so boring of late, totally missed it.

We're done here.