Trigger pivot pin on P380

[cobrasjp]

Bought a new P380 on April 15 to celebrate getting taxes finished. Serial number is in the 7xxx range, so I think it was made in early 2010.

Fired 100 rounds thru it the next day and had to stop because the trigger pivot pin had backed out of the frame about 1/4" on the right side. There were no malfunctions in the 100 rounds. Called Kahr & they said to send it back. FedEx picked it up on the 20th (on Kahr's dime) and I had it back on the 26th. Great customer service.
The work order said they installed a trigger pivot pin spring. On the left side of the frame, there is now an additional hole with a pin in it on the underside of the frame beneath the hole for the trigger pivot pin. My wife has our camera, so I can't get pictures.

First, a comment on the gun & Kahr's CS. It's a beautiful piece of work & shoots so much easier than my Kel-Tec P3AT. Much more manageable in recoil & the trigger pull is a vast improvement over the P3AT. Kahr was great to deal with & it reaffirms their committment to customer satisfaction.

Second, a question to other P380 owners. Has anyone else had a problem with the trigger pivot pin walking out? I know this was an issue with earlier models of the P9, but I'm curious about the P380.

IMHO the P380 is hands-down the best .380 pocker pistol on the market, even considering its price relative to the competition.

[PUDD]

Sorry,

Haven't read/heard about that one.

[jocko]

Bought a new P380 on April 15 to celebrate getting taxes finished. Serial number is in the 7xxx range, so I think it was made in early 2010.

Fired 100 rounds thru it the next day and had to stop because the trigger pivot pin had backed out of the frame about 1/4" on the right side. There were no malfunctions in the 100 rounds. Called Kahr & they said to send it back. FedEx picked it up on the 20th (on Kahr's dime) and I had it back on the 26th. Great customer service.
The work order said they installed a trigger pivot pin spring. On the left side of the frame, there is now an additional hole with a pin in it on the underside of the frame beneath the hole for the trigger pivot pin. My wife has our camera, so I can't get pictures.

First, a comment on the gun & Kahr's CS. It's a beautiful piece of work & shoots so much easier than my Kel-Tec P3AT. Much more manageable in recoil & the trigger pull is a vast improvement over the P3AT. Kahr was great to deal with & it reaffirms their committment to customer satisfaction.

Second, a question to other P380 owners. Has anyone else had a problem with the trigger pivot pin walking out? I know this was an issue with earlier models of the P9, but I'm curious about the P380.

IMHO the P380 is hands-down the best .380 pocker pistol on the market, even considering its price relative to the competition.


polymer kahrs have this trigger pivot , holding pinon the left side. My bet is that when kahr originally drilled that gun on the left side for the keeper pin to be installed that it was never installed. and the trigger pivot pin just walked right out of the frame. That keeper pin on the left side is made to go tightly against that trigger pivot pin and it shoud not let it walk anymore either. So in essense that little hole on the left side is normal on all polymer kahrs, and more than likely was there when you bought it but never noticed it.

It should be OK . you are dead right, hands down the finest little 380 on the market. Mine is so accurate It just amazes me.

[at_liberty]

I will have to shoot one of these puppies if available for rent, because it is embarrassing to read serious references to recoil re 9mm shorts (.380). With no mass to speak of and no balance in barrel length, I suppose the little fella could feel like an explosion in your hand, but I am skeptical that some need to man up on this recoil issue and how much gun one needs to carry for real self defense.

It sounds fine to say that the guns are better than none but 1) many speak of the guns as primary carries, not backup, and 2) one can have a false sense of security and get too brave, starting a conflict or reluctant to retreat, too much bluster, without real firepower to back it up or even a gun big enough to be intimidating, exposing it or waving it around ready to shoot. We have this whole new culture of people who refuse to dress for concealment of a serious weapon. A gunfight is not likely going to be between two .380s.

If one is more likely to retreat, he might be better off unarmed than poorly armed. If it is so important, then a more serious weapon should be the minimum one will carry with any confidence. This is not real science. One can just follow the example of the police and what they consider a proper choice for service sidearm. The difference there is open carry, but the need for concealment does not change the weapon requirement except perhaps in capacity and physical size in general, all the while the same caliber. That is where Kahr serves very well, so it is ironic for Kahr folks to get caught up in this ultra pocket gun culture. If I was going to go that route, I think I would be looking at the renowned Rohrbaugh (9mm).

Lastly, I think it was confusing for Kahr to call the 380 a "P", since it is an inch shorter in barrel than the other P models, even shorter than a PM9/PM40/PM45. Discussion of the .380 actually deserves its own subforum, partly because the group of folks who would carry one may be a completely different culture or concealed carry mindset. Some may be just plinking away at the range, and that's fine, but the talk seems mostly of carrying these little pistols as concealed weapons and relying on them as primary.

[jocko]

I think the P part stand s for polymer, my SWAG anyhow. the little p380 is a very pleasant 380 to shoot considering how small it is. Recoil as u know is in the "minds" of the beholder. I never shot a gun that had to much recoil. I have shot guns that have more recoil than others but again, recoil never bothered me. If your gonna shoot a 44 magnum and then complain about recoil, then you should have never gotten one in the first place. I will take my PM9 over a R9 anyday. I can and do stick it in my jeans front pocket with ease..

[kahrseye]

I will have to shoot one of these puppies if available for rent, because it is embarrassing to read serious references to recoil re 9mm shorts (.380). With no mass to speak of and no balance in barrel length, I suppose the little fella could feel like an explosion in your hand, but I am skeptical that some need to man up on this recoil issue and how much gun one needs to carry for real self defense.

It sounds fine to say that the guns are better than none but 1) many speak of the guns as primary carries, not backup, and 2) one can have a false sense of security and get too brave, starting a conflict or reluctant to retreat, too much bluster, without real firepower to back it up or even a gun big enough to be intimidating, exposing it or waving it around ready to shoot. We have this whole new culture of people who refuse to dress for concealment of a serious weapon. A gunfight is not likely going to be between two .380s.


If one is more likely to retreat, he might be better off unarmed than poorly armed. If it is so important, then a more serious weapon should be the minimum one will carry with any confidence. This is not real science. One can just follow the example of the police and what they consider a proper choice for service sidearm. The difference there is open carry, but the need for concealment does not change the weapon requirement except perhaps in capacity and physical size in general, all the while the same caliber. That is where Kahr serves very well, so it is ironic for Kahr folks to get caught up in this ultra pocket gun culture. If I was going to go that route, I think I would be looking at the renowned Rohrbaugh (9mm).

Lastly, I think it was confusing for Kahr to call the 380 a "P", since it is an inch shorter in barrel than the other P models, even shorter than a PM9/PM40/PM45. Discussion of the .380 actually deserves its own subforum, partly because the group of folks who would carry one may be a completely different culture or concealed carry mindset. Some may be just plinking away at the range, and that's fine, but the talk seems mostly of carrying these little pistols as concealed weapons and relying on them as primary.

Not sure what this rant was all about. :19:Maybe your blood sugar was low.

[kahrseye]

Bought a new P380 on April 15 to celebrate getting taxes finished. Serial number is in the 7xxx range, so I think it was made in early 2010.

Fired 100 rounds thru it the next day and had to stop because the trigger pivot pin had backed out of the frame about 1/4" on the right side. There were no malfunctions in the 100 rounds. Called Kahr & they said to send it back. FedEx picked it up on the 20th (on Kahr's dime) and I had it back on the 26th. Great customer service.
The work order said they installed a trigger pivot pin spring. On the left side of the frame, there is now an additional hole with a pin in it on the underside of the frame beneath the hole for the trigger pivot pin. My wife has our camera, so I can't get pictures.

First, a comment on the gun & Kahr's CS. It's a beautiful piece of work & shoots so much easier than my Kel-Tec P3AT. Much more manageable in recoil & the trigger pull is a vast improvement over the P3AT. Kahr was great to deal with & it reaffirms their committment to customer satisfaction.

Second, a question to other P380 owners. Has anyone else had a problem with the trigger pivot pin walking out? I know this was an issue with earlier models of the P9, but I'm curious about the P380.

IMHO the P380 is hands-down the best .380 pocker pistol on the market, even considering its price relative to the competition.

Congrats on your new gun. Sounds like it's been fixed and was only a minor oversight. Let us know how you make out after your next range visit. I too once had a Kel Tec P3AT and didn't like it. The fit, finish and overall quality left alot to be desired. If I was to purchase another .380, it would be a Kahr. There's an old saying "You get what you pay for" seems to ring true in firearms.

[at_liberty]

Not sure what this rant was all about. :19:Maybe your blood sugar was low.

Not sure what this response is all about. Maybe your blood sugar was low. Would you care to contribute something? :rolleyes:

[fra3]

Not sure what this response is all about. Maybe your blood sugar was low. Would you care to contribute something? :rolleyes:

What have you contributed other than your opinion on 380's?? You did nothing to assist the original poster at all:(. You typed up some diarrhea of the keyboard response that was not even close to what the guy was wanting to hear from people. I really don't care, but for you to say contribute made me laugh. Oh, and as for the usefulness of the .380 let me shoot you in the shin, whilst you run at me full speed with a knife and see if it stops you from completing the task. :7: f3

[recoilguy]

Cobrasjp.....congrats on the new weapon, weather you use it for primary carry, back up, or just plinking, it is a fine weapon. Comparing it to a KT seems a bit unfair, that gun I would not want anything I own to be on the same quality plane as a P3AT. It is always good to hear of the fine customer service of Kahr and to see satisfied customers.

In reference to the rant on .380's I have read it 3 times trying to get it to make sense and see how it applies to this thread. I am just not smart enough to make that happen. The R9 is a nice gun, the mag release is in a very strange and inconvieniant place. The gun is very nice however, I wouldn't mind having one.

RCG

[cobrasjp]

polymer kahrs have this trigger pivot , holding pinon the left side. My bet is that when kahr originally drilled that gun on the left side for the keeper pin to be installed that it was never installed. and the trigger pivot pin just walked right out of the frame. That keeper pin on the left side is made to go tightly against that trigger pivot pin and it shoud not let it walk anymore either. So in essense that little hole on the left side is normal on all polymer kahrs, and more than likely was there when you bought it but never noticed it.

The keeper pin was in place. When the trigger pivot pin was out of the way, you could barely see the edge of the keeper pin showing in the hole for the trigger pivot pin. I think the hole had been drilled too far to the side & the keeper pin was not deep enough in the groove in the trigger pivot pin to prevent it from backing out. Kahr drilled a 2nd hole that located the keeper pin much deeper in the pivot pin groove.

Hard to explain in words, but hope the idea came through.

I agree that there should be no more problems with the trigger pin moving. I'll find out more tonight when I put more rounds thru it.

I also noticed that Kahr may have done a little extra polishing & finishing while it was there. The slide movement feels smooth as a silk. Needless to say, I'm really pleased with Kahr's customer service.

[at_liberty]

In reference to the rant on .380's I have read it 3 times trying to get it to make sense and see how it applies to this thread. I am just not smart enough to make that happen. The R9 is a nice gun, the mag release is in a very strange and inconvieniant place. The gun is very nice however, I wouldn't mind having one.

RCG

We should be discussing Kahr products rather than the process of discussion, but I feel I should point out that there are a number of points in my "rant" that relate directly to the subforum, the original post, and especially to points mentioned in the downstream discussion. Part relates directly to the previous post. If one doesn't like what I had to say, he should avoid logical fallacies in response. It wouldn't hurt to just ignore it and spare us the unpleasant hazing.

I still think the P380 is more a PM than a P and is so unique and specialized in its user base that it should have its own subforum.

[recoilguy]

Like I said I am just not smart enough to make it work. Still. I try very hard to avoid logical fallacies in all my responses. Heck I'm barely smart enough to know if I really do that or not.

As far as what Kahr has chosen to name their weapon, I see your point. However it is a Kahr weapon and I bet they put some thought into the name. Albeit not as sound as it should have been when given the subform context of thought.

RCG

[cobrasjp]

Put 250 rds thru my P380 after Kahr returned it. Trigger pivot pin hasn't budged, so Kahr obviosly fixed the problem. So far 350 rounds with no malfunctions. That includes S&B 92 gr. FMJ, Federal Hydra-Shok, and Speer 90 gr. Gold Dots.
Looks like my new pocket gun is ready to go.
BTY, I just got the K&D pocket holster for the P380 from Kahr. I'm really impressed with the quality and the gun/holster package is really thin.

[at_liberty]

The concept of hurriedly shooting up $250+ worth of ammo as a rite of breaking in a gun is new to me. It makes sense, but I wonder how many think of that as part of the price of a new gun or the value of a nice used one. I will have to keep that in mind myself.

[jocko]

if ur gonna buy a gun and not shoot it much, kinda defeats the purpose of owning one. I call my first 200 + rounds break in rounds but they are just shooting rounds, no more no less, Not like running 10 weight oil back in the old days to break in a car and thenchanging that oil to regular oil in 1000 miles. Now that is break in.

I just think the break in term is maybe over used. Maybe jsut calling it shooting time to ge to know the gun etc. A gun and a shooter have to also mate up to be right to. Each gun has its feel and little things to get used to. Some take awhile to get used to a certain slide stop or a certain mag release location etc Slide dissamebly is new to many shooters as damn near every semi breaks down differently. I call all of this breakingin. Sure some of the above require no rounds down range, but I would not factor in a 200 rounds of ammo into the price of a gun. Hell I hve 25,000+ ropnd sout of my PM9, it worked perfect from the day it took it out of the box and has been that way since. Do I not shoot it because it works perfect???

Call um what you want, they are stiill the same rounds down range as round 2000+ is. A perfect gun can fault the very next round.

If I was going to buy an used gun that had a 100 rounds through it, that would not bother me one bit. Kahrs for sure are mad eot shoot until the cows come home. If I was buying it fram a trusty friend who told me it was perfect and no issues and had 1000 rounds through it, I would feel good about the gun, for if there was any quirks certainly in 1000 rounds they would have shown up. If I was buying used from a dealer I would want an understanding that it must be reliable or back it comes, some will let you shoot um. Dealers normally don't go out and test out used guns, I know we never did when we were in the gun business. So know who your buying from and a used gun can be a super buy..

But I bet even at that if one buys a used gun, he will shoot 200+ rounds through it with ease just getting to know the gun, so for him they are break in/getting to know your gun rounds...

[cgo99]

if ur gonna buy a gun and not shoot it much, kinda defeats the purpose of owning one. I call my first 200 + rounds break in rounds but they are just shooting rounds, no more no less, Not like running 10 weight oil back in the old days to break in a car and thenchanging that oil to regular oil in 1000 miles. Now that is break in.

I just think the break in term is maybe over used. Maybe jsut calling it shooting time to ge to know the gun etc. A gun and a shooter have to also mate up to be right to. Each gun has its feel and little things to get used to. Some take awhile to get used to a certain slide stop or a certain mag release location etc Slide dissamebly is new to many shooters as damn near every semi breaks down differently. I call all of this breakingin. Sure some of the above require no rounds down range, but I would not factor in a 200 rounds of ammo into the price of a gun. Hell I hve 25,000+ ropnd sout of my PM9, it worked perfect from the day it took it out of the box and has been that way since. Do I not shoot it because it works perfect???

Call um what you want, they are stiill the same rounds down range as round 2000+ is. A perfect gun can fault the very next round.

If I was going to buy an used gun that had a 100 rounds through it, that would not bother me one bit. Kahrs for sure are mad eot shoot until the cows come home. If I was buying it fram a trusty friend who told me it was perfect and no issues and had 1000 rounds through it, I would feel good about the gun, for if there was any quirks certainly in 1000 rounds they would have shown up. If I was buying used from a dealer I would want an understanding that it must be reliable or back it comes, some will let you shoot um. Dealers normally don't go out and test out used guns, I know we never did when we were in the gun business. So know who your buying from and a used gun can be a super buy..

But I bet even at that if one buys a used gun, he will shoot 200+ rounds through it with ease just getting to know the gun, so for him they are break in/getting to know your gun rounds...
I'm no expert but I could not agree more with Jocko, when you get a new gun you have roughly 40+ parts that have never work together. It makes sense to have those parts go thru a settle in process call it break in or whatever you want the fact is every time you have anything that is made of several different components there is a break in period where those components "learn" to work together and deal with internal and external forces, that is the case for a car a building or a gun (specially if the gun has the kind of low tolerances that kahrs have).
Any how I'm just ranting now. Those are my two cents, again no expertise here just common sense.

[Bawanna]

I'm no expert but I could not agree more with Jocko, when you get a new gun you have roughly 40+ parts that have never work together. It makes sense to have those parts go thru a settle in process call it break in or whatever you want the fact is every time you have anything that is made of several different components there is a break in period where those components "learn" to work together and deal with internal and external forces, that is the case for a car a building or a gun (specially if the gun has the kind of low tolerances that kahrs have).
Any how I'm just ranting now. Those are my two cents, again no expertise here just common sense.

Plus as he mentioned the moving parts of the operator. Hands, thumbs, fingers, arms, brain (in some cases). Just like a motorcycle, car, or woman they all act a little different and have their own idiosyncrazies. ( I think Jocko already used that big word but it's worth noting in my vocabulary).
I prefer to call it a bonding process but break in, honeymoon, they all work. Whatever works for you.

[jocko]

cgo99, makes alot of sense to. I never thought abut the sum number of parts having tomate up but your right.. More than likely kahr doesn't make alltheir own parts either and they are subed out as most companies seem to do. there just has to be some kind of a mating process, call it break in, testing, or shoout um like you stole um but ronds must go down range in order for one to feel comfortable with the weapon he is carrying, no matter who makes it. And the good thing about that is that most all gun companies, guns work great right out of the box..

[jlottmc]

Everything needs a break in period. Everything. I trust nothing until it is used. New just makes me cringe.

[at_liberty]

My point was the immediacy of it, even recruiting a friend to help reach the prescribed round count. It's like you leave the gun store, figuratively speaking, with the gun and this big stash of ammo that is virtually part of the purchase. Break-in is treated as a rite.

It seems to me that a mag or two of various ammo options, seeing what works (or not), plus a box, maybe two to get comfortable with it, and one can settle back and just stick to the shooting budget, if there is such a thing. If there are any malfunctions, how long is it really going to take for them to show up? Who knows the magic round count or exact process. We just follow a list or rule of thumb that some guy made up, with all due respect.

I am skeptical and am just asking for some good arguments for the validity of all these procedures and what seems like voodoo ceremonies with new guns.

[jocko]

My point was the immediacy of it, even recruiting a friend to help reach the prescribed round count. It's like you leave the gun store, figuratively speaking, with the gun and this big stash of ammo that is virtually part of the purchase. Break-in is treated as a rite.

It seems to me that a mag or two of various ammo options, seeing what works (or not), plus a box, maybe two to get comfortable with it, and one can settle back and just stick to the shooting budget, if there is such a thing. If there are any malfunctions, how long is it really going to take for them to show up? Who knows the magic round count or exact process. We just follow a list or rule of thumb that some guy made up, with all due respect.

I am skeptical and am just asking for some good arguments for the validity of all these procedures and what seems like voodoo ceremonies with new guns.

there is no round count that says your weapon is broken in. Your right on tha tpoint, if you feel a couple magazines is all that is needed for "yor" guns to be reliable or not reliable than that is your breakin method. Most guns as u know are perfect out of the box and I feel the mfg-er want one to put a few hundred rounds down range just as a procautionary measure to let all parts melts in with eachother as designed. My Para gave issues from the git go and the factory people told me to call them back when i get 500 roounds through it. It got alot better in that time period butnever was right.

It is not strange to read on this forum and many others where a poster reports that in his forst 50 rounds he had so and so issues but after a 100+ or 200+ the gun is perfect. Sometimes certain guns just need those rounds to be totally reliable. If a person buys a gun and shoots 50 rounds and get a few issues and sends it back, that is his decision .

I think we all have our own limits of what we expect from a gun, some are more patient and willing and if that incurs addtional cost of rounds down range, so be it, so will choose to box it right back up and take it back or send it in. The most perfect gun can break on the very next shot, so nothing is for certain..

I sure don't think 200 rounds for break in menas all 200 in one day or even two, just a message to let the reader know to shoot the gun for awhile before pushign the panic button.

[jlottmc]

As far as the immediacy of doing it, kinda depends on how soon you want to carry it. I never subscribed to a preset round count, but do feel that some are needed. I for one like to play with a new toy.

[cgo99]

My point was the immediacy of it, even recruiting a friend to help reach the prescribed round count. It's like you leave the gun store, figuratively speaking, with the gun and this big stash of ammo that is virtually part of the purchase. Break-in is treated as a rite.

It seems to me that a mag or two of various ammo options, seeing what works (or not), plus a box, maybe two to get comfortable with it, and one can settle back and just stick to the shooting budget, if there is such a thing. If there are any malfunctions, how long is it really going to take for them to show up? Who knows the magic round count or exact process. We just follow a list or rule of thumb that some guy made up, with all due respect.

I am skeptical and am just asking for some good arguments for the validity of all these procedures and what seems like voodoo ceremonies with new guns.
You are right to think there is no magic or prescribed number of rounds but like many other things in life there is a probability involved; if there is a problem with the gun it has a bigger chance to show up in 200 rounds than in 20 rounds, at list at the beginning.
If you have two failures in 20 rounds is it a problem or just a glitch?......if you have the same two failures in 200 rounds is probably just a glitch but if you have 10 failures in 200 rounds (2 for every 20 rounds), you might want to take a closer look at the gun.
In any case the only way to know is putting enough rounds where the probabilities will show a trend, is certainly not 100% fail proof but what is?
And then is the second part of the equation where after many rounds the gun starts to have fatigue of the parts and goes in to the law of diminishing returns, here is where maintenance starts to play an important role but that is a completely different discussion.
Back to the point, I don't think is a rite but a deliberate effort to try to predict the chances of a failure (emphasis on the word "try").
If you can only choose from two guns to protect you and your family, are you going to choose the one that had 1 failure in 10 or the one that had 1 failure in 100?
Again no guarantee that the second one is not going to fail but everything in life is about chances.