PM9193 Enhanced trigger :: LCI/External Safety

[00Ghost00]

I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times, so make this 1+ :)

I previously owned a CM9, but disliked the LoP of the trigger to the point that I traded it for an XDs 45. I just had a difficult time knowing where the break point was when firing the CM9 during range shooting sessions. (I understand in a high stress situation this is likely a moot point)

While I love my XDs, it's a brick. At 26+ oz's on a carry load, it becomes very cumbersome at times. As such, I'm back to looking for a lighter pocket carry 9mm for a warmer months option. After going over the volumes of info on the Net, I'm back to looking at a PM9. Specifically, a PM9193 of 2012-current date manufacture that has the "enhanced" trigger.

From all the info I can find about the "enhanced" trigger, it's my understanding that the LoP for the trigger was shortened from 3/8, to 1/4. Effectively dropping 1/8 off the trigger travel. Other than this, there's no real difference in the trigger itself, correct? (the trigger pull weight is the same) Is this change that noticeable, or more of a selling point from Kahr's perspective? The "enhanced" PM9193's are very rare birds in my neck of the woods, so I can't seem to find one in-stock at any of my LGS's to confirm this statement from a true hands-on experience.

I've read comments posted where there's discussions about replacing the striker spring with a Wolff product that effectively does the same thing on standard PM9/CM9's. (alluding to the fact that this is something Kahr may have done to make the new trigger "enhanced".) I don't mind spending the higher cost for the other aspects a PM9193 offers (mostly the oddly functioning external safety), but if I can get the same effect by picking up a CM9 and dropping in a Wolff spring my pocket book (and wife) would be much happier.

I've finally located a recent production PM9193, and I'd like to make the purchase if there's enough of a difference in the trigger LoP? (akin to the change Ruger recently made to the LCP 380 line)

[jocko]

the 5# striker only reduces trigger pressure, not trigger travel. The enhanced trigger to my knowledge still has the standard kahr trigger spring,which is around 6.5 - 7# U ca'tmake the cm9 enhanced..

with the enhanced trigger u do realize u get the external safety also. which many do not want, when u get down to a 1/4 trigger travel the gun is getting hairy and IMO into glock territory and some kind of safety might be needed. Certanly kahr felt that way.

IMO if u ain't comfortable with the 3/8" trigger traavel I seriously doubt an 1/8' less travel is gonna make u that much happier. Just my 21 cents on thos. We can and we will give u our opinions but the bottom line is how u feel about it..

[muggsy]

+1 What Jocko said. The Kahr trigger is exactly as it should be for a self defense gun. It wasn't intended to be a target pistol though they are very accurate for a short barrel gun with a short sight radius. It has a far better double action trigger than most revolvers made today. Go with the 5# striker spring and you'll learn to love it.

[00Ghost00]

Thanks for the responses.

I'm going to buy the PM9193. At the time of the CM9 ownership all I had to compare the Kahr trigger against were Glocks. I've expanded my trigger experience to other styles since then (no wheel guns though), and I've been able to improve my grip style, and finger-to-trigger control significantly. I'm confident that just spending more training time with the Kahr's trigger will make all the difference this go around. I actually like the external safety aspect, considering the different trigger. Albeit, I wish a Kahr representative would provide a solid reasoning why its functionality is backwards from the norm, beyond "for demonstration purposes". (whatever that means :rolleyes: )

My wife recently purchased an LCP that has the newer trigger. She disliked the Kahr CM9, but likes this LCP's trigger. (She also has a P238, and tries to compare it's SA trigger to everything else. :rolleyes: ) I measured the LCP's LoP to break point (after the initial take-up) and it's approx 3/8 to 7/16'ish. I actually like the new trigger Ruger put in as well, so I'm even more confident the PM9193 will be more than satisfactory for my purposes.

[garyb]

Can't you test the trigger before you buy it? Most gun shops will let you look it over and refund your deposit if you are not pleased with your order.

[340pd]

Not to hijack this thread but please be aware that the XDs 45 and 9mm are subject to recall. No knock on Springfield, but go to the website for more info.

"This Safety Recall applies only to:
Springfield 3.3 XD-S™ 9mm pistols - serial numbers between XS900000 and
XS938700
Springfield 3.3 XD-S™ .45ACP pistols - serial numbers between XS500000 and XS686300."

[00Ghost00]

Can't you test the trigger before you buy it? Most gun shops will let you look it over and refund your deposit if you are not pleased with your order.

Unfortunately, my source is not a LGS. Finding a 2012+ PM9193 has been very difficult, so I'm having to purchase over the Internet. I've tried a myriad of LGS's in my region, but all state 2012+ PM9193 are "special order"/backordered. That makes it difficult to ask them to obtain one just to test the trigger, only find out I may decline the purchase. Believe me, if I could find one locally this thread would be a moot point.



Not to hijack this thread but please be aware that the XDs 45 and 9mm are subject to recall. No knock on Springfield, but go to the website for more info.

"This Safety Recall applies only to:
Springfield 3.3 XD-S™ 9mm pistols - serial numbers between XS900000 and
XS938700
Springfield 3.3 XD-S™ .45ACP pistols - serial numbers between XS500000 and XS686300."

Funny you mention this recall. I've had zero problems with my XDs 45, but shipped mine back to SA on Friday for the recall anyways. (better to be safe than sorry) It's the 4-6+ week turn around time I anticipate that has me looking for other options. (Calls to SA reps are reporting 2 - 4 weeks, but I suspect that's a little too quick for the advertised volume of expected RMA returns.)

I've always told myself if I ever find a 2012+ PM9193 I'm going to buy it, regardless of the XDs recall. I just need a bit of a sanity check to make sure I have clear expectations around what Kahr states is an "enhanced" trigger when compared to other configurations.

[Gringo Pistolero]

I'm not surprised that you are having a hard time finding the "MA Compliant" version of the PM9 here in Texas.

I really don't think that 1/8" less travel would make any substantial difference in the feel of the trigger, and personally I wouldn't want the additional complexity that the LCI and external safety would add to an already excellent carry weapon.

I may be way off here, but my impression is that the external safety versions are being built to allow sales in states that require the additional features. The "enhanced" trigger is just a little bonus for those geographically handicapped folks... :)

[Popeye]

I prefer the grip on my PM9 over the grip on the Shield. Although the overall thickness might be the same I didn't care for the way the Shield grip tapered back before it went into the radius of the back strap. Back straps radius was way to tight for my liking when I shot it. I can't say I was all that crazy about the trigger either. Over all it did seem like a well made pistol, but it just didn't impress me enough to actually buy one.
The Kahr triggers do have a learning curve to them at first, but once you have mastered it, buy pulling the trigger in one smooth and continuous motion from front to back, you'll grow to love them.:D

[dkmatthews]

If you buy the PM9193 and decide you don't like it, I'm sure you will be able to resell it here. If you sell it for $20 or $30 less than you paid for it, consider it like an extended range rental fee. I never think of it as losing money, but of gaining experience for a small price.

[C0untZer0]

I think people quite often underestimate the importance of controls. And I think people assume that if a safety flips down, then it's like the 1911 or Browning Hi-Power.

I've worked the safety on the PM9 and to me it doesn't feel like an easy flip down. To me it felt more like rotating a dial. It just wasn't an easy flip, and it's not laid out very far from the backstrap, I had to bend my thumb to operate it.

For people who really want an external safety, it is an option. I just didn't like it for myself.

[00Ghost00]

Follow-up:

Today's arrival, and I'm very, very pleased. :D

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/spdr8cer/P1050835_zps05f1c38f.jpg

The trigger is DEFINITELY much better than I remember with the CM9. There is some slight (but smooth) initial take-up, and then a very good heavy'ish pull to break point. It "feels" shorter to me, so that's all that matters. I'm looking forward to tomorrow's break-in range session. (Will be doing a "jocko's proper prep" tonight.)

[Icer]

I have that model and think you will love it. Just ignore those who will bash it because of the safety. As you can tell, the safety isn't in the way and doesn't need to be used...a non-issue IMO.

[garyb]

I have that model and think you will love it. Just ignore those who will bash it because of the safety. As you can tell, the safety isn't in the way and doesn't need to be used...a non-issue IMO.

I agree. My PM does not have a safety, but I have other guns with a safety. Some triggers probably need one....some don't. Use em if you want...or not. It is simply a feature that does not get in the way and is there if you want to use it for some reason. (EX: I set the safety if there are kids around me. It is very unnecessary, but I feel better about the safety being set on when kids are around me. Just me.) It is not important if the feature gets bashed or not. It is what the owner wants.

Nice looking gun 00Ghost00. Congrats! Hope it works out good for you.

[00Ghost00]

Yeah, the external safety isn't a major factor (for me) in this purchase. I just wanted the enhanced trigger. IMHO, Kahr just handcuffed the ext safety to the "enhanced" trigger models for liability reasons. Otherwise, even non-MA compliant/non-ext safety models would have the same trigger treatment. I don't plan on leveraging (heh, pun!) the feature, as after spending some time trying to find a way to make quick manipulation work, it's obviously just not meant to be used in a "quick deploy" manner. It's a great feature to use if the firearm is not 100% secured in a holster on your person, or in a safe locked away. I'll give it that much.

So quick update: Range session today. 100 rds of 115gr FMJ. 100% flawless function. No FTF, FTE, slide lock back/no lock back issues. Both the 6rd and ext 7rd mags worked without issues. I used the slide release every time to chamber a round from magazine. Spot checking random fired brass showed no issues either. Good solid/deep primer strikes evident. Brass ejection worked as desired with no brass back in the face, straight up, or in an otherwise odd direction.

Simply put, I'm elated. :w00t:

Now I need to start mixing in some SD rds in the next break-in session(s) to find out which feeds/shoots reliably. I also need to put NS on ASAP. I was having difficulty at 1st with accuracy. I blame part of that on the fact I was also shooting my M&P 45c with TFO's in between magazine loads on the Kahr. Once I stopped shooting the M&P I was able to figure out the Kahr's sight placement, and zeroed in with much better accuracy. I still had some difficulty picking up the front sight clearly, so a good set of NS should help remedy that aspect. I'd love to have a Trijicon HD front sight, but it doesn't appear they make one that'll fit a Kahr. :( That leaves standard Mepro's as the next best option.

[Gringo Pistolero]

That is another good looking Kahr. Happy it is working well for you. Enjoy!

Chuck


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m/)

[garyb]

You might also wish to consider a nice Dawson Precision front sight - fiber optic. Makes it quick to pick up in day. You can add a CTL for night. Just a thought. Check out Jocko's thread on prep too....for your break in. Good luck with her. Sounds like you are having the same experience I had with my PM....flawless.

[mbaza3]

May I ask where you ended up finding a PM9193?

Thanks.

[skychief12]

I started looking for the PM9193 at a very big gun show here in Dallas and found NONE! No LGS around seem to have it either.

BTW, I can't find it online to boot.

Is there some reason for the slow distribution?

[muggsy]

A safety has no place on a double action defensive pistol. It was put there by politicians who know nothing about guns. It was their attempt to remove as many guns as possible from circulation within their respective states.

[jocko]

Had they made the safety version whenI bought my PMJ9 back some years bckI would have bought it. I hvbe zero issues with a safety on a gun. We maketomuch out having a safety on a gun, IMO. A safety is definitely needed IMO on the enhanced trigger version. Its as hairy as a glock with no safety. It belongs there, use it if u so please or no if u so please.

Kimber muggs calls their solo a double action and in true esse3nce it is a single action striker fired gun, and it definitley needs a safety. It's 90% precocked. so IMO one should temper his opinions for maybe a certain make of gun, for these makers today are calling anything that takes alittle trigger push to produce the bang thing a double action gun.Kahr no doubt stands alone IMO as a true double action gun but the enhanded vbersion is getting into glock territory and should have a safety on it.

I never readof a safety on a gun costing anyone his life,course if the fokker is dead, he can't realy tell us what the hell happ;ened either. Just sayin.

[00Ghost00]

May I ask where you ended up finding a PM9193?

Thanks.

GunBroker.

Every now and then I see one pop-up, but 99% of the time they are older/pre-2012 mfg. Mine is one of 2 I've seen over the past year that was confirmed to be 2012+ mfg. Mine is new August 2013 mfg, the other was "slightly used". I'm sure there have been others, but even on GB it's very rare. I've also seen 1 or 2 on Armslist, but I'm wary about transactions via that portal.


I started looking for the PM9193 at a very big gun show here in Dallas and found NONE! No LGS around seem to have it either.

BTW, I can't find it online to boot.

Is there some reason for the slow distribution?

This was the challenge I faced ever since Kahr announced the "enhanced" version back in early 2012. They just aren't widely distributed here in TX, if at all. Seems to be a custom order/backorder only item. I've only seen 2 physical specimens here in my immediate metroplex in the past year or so, and both were already in the dealer's stock before the announcement of the enhanced version. One was on clearance at Cabela's, and the other at a LGS.

[skychief12]

I did find the pm9193 and compared the trigger to a pm9093 in a local store (just not willing to pay $997 for it). IMO the pm9193 is hands down an improved trigger. I have my LGS trying to order one for me.

[mbaza3]

I dry fired a PM9193 at Gander Mountain yesterday and it felt great. They where asking $979 which is nuts.

[jocko]

so u can actrually feel that 1/8" less trigger travel??? Thats all they did to the enhanced trigger. The price of $1k is getting out of alot of people reach, thatis for sure. Probably someday wewill see it in the cm series.

[00Ghost00]

I paid $699 :D

[skychief12]

My LGS said the price to order one looked like it would be around $650 depending on the source.

Yes I could defiantly tell the difference between the current and enhanced trigger. I'm sure you will too if you get the chance.

[mbaza3]

I have a standard PM9 and the 1/8" less trigger travel was noticeable.

[mbaza3]

I found an enhanced trigger PM9 model 9193 with a polished slide. If I purchased it could I swap slides with my Black Diamond PM9? This way I will end up with a Black Diamond enhanced trigger PM9.

Thanks.

[jocko]

is ur black diamon the blunt nose version??? if so slide, barrel and recoil spring must alla go toghether. I would thinhk you would have a very hairy gun though with just a 1/4" trigger travel before the boom thing happens. Certainly imo for me any howthis would not bne a great pocket gun with such a short travel.

[mbaza3]

Yes it is the blunt version. I would be carrying it in an owb holster and not in my pocket.