New CM9 accuracy issues

[Cool Breeze]

Howdy folks, been reading for a while... My CM9 has been flawless- not one single issue (with 350rds so far), other than the accuracy. I probably need to try to take pics of the sights aiming at the target to explain, but if I aim normal- with the front dot just above the rear white square- so the dot is sitting in the notch, at 30 feet, I don't even hit the paper. I am waaay low and left. I literally have to angle the gun up so that the top plane of the rear sights is equal to the top front of the slide- the entire front sight is visible above the rear sight- just to get it on paper. Then, I put that on top right of the paper and I'm pretty decent. but it is sooo different from what I'm used to.

I've had friends try it and the look at me like... whats wrong with your gun???

I know 30 feet is probably maxing out, but geez, I can't even say I could hit a man sized target in my home from one end to the other.

as for the "left", the rear sight seems perfectly centered in the dovetail.

Any ideas?

Thanks

[Rubb]

It sounds like you're jerking the trigger.
Try ignoring the dot and bar.. use the sights only.
Try it closer and rested to eliminate any user error.
Focus on the front sight..the target should be blurry.
Slow & steady trigger pull..it should surprise you when it fires.

[RevRay]

If you're new to Kahrs the long trigger pull takes some getting used to. When I first got my CM9 I did a lot of dry firing to get used to that long slow squeeze.

[jocko]

Howdy folks, been reading for a while... My CM9 has been flawless- not one single issue (with 350rds so far), other than the accuracy. I probably need to try to take pics of the sights aiming at the target to explain, but if I aim normal- with the front dot just above the rear white square- so the dot is sitting in the notch, at 30 feet, I don't even hit the paper. I am waaay low and left. I literally have to angle the gun up so that the top plane of the rear sights is equal to the top front of the slide- the entire front sight is visible above the rear sight- just to get it on paper. Then, I put that on top right of the paper and I'm pretty decent. but it is sooo different from what I'm used to.

I've had friends try it and the look at me like... whats wrong with your gun???

I know 30 feet is probably maxing out, but geez, I can't even say I could hit a man sized target in my home from one end to the other.

as for the "left", the rear sight seems perfectly centered in the dovetail.

Any ideas?

Thanks

until u realize it is more than likely "shooter" ISSUES, UR GONNA TRY TO BLAME THE GUN. hERE IS WHAT i WOULD RECOMMEND AS IT ILL SHOW U FIRST HAND WHAT IS GOIN ON. BUY A HALF DOZEN SNAP CAPS. THROW THEM IN WITH 30 LIVE ROUNDS AND LET A FRIEND LOAD UR magazine so u don'tknow if one or 5 of the snap caps are in the magazine.Trust me this will show u first hand what is going on. dryu firing proves nadda for what ur talking about. It helps but the bangt thing is what is causing u ur issues. we are here to help so fear not , no question is a bad one... I wold bet ur a right hand shooter to:Amflag2:

[berettabone]

I find that if I put the front sight on top of the notch, like putting a ball on a tee....try it........................plus, are you using your dominant eye? I have seen people using the wrong eye, and once they use the dominant one, they're on paper every time............

[magtf388]

A. Sight Alignment

Definition. Sight alignment is the relationship between the front sight and rear sight with respect to the aiming eye. Correct sight alignment is the front sight centered in the rear sight notch with the top edge of the front sight level with the top edge of the rear sight. There should be equal space on either side of the front sight.

B. Sight Picture

Definition. Sight picture is the placement of the front sight in relation to the target while maintaining sight alignment. Shooting the shot takes place with focus on the front sight and the front sight alone.

[Popeye]

One smooth and consistent full length trigger pull front to back. Sure helped me to be a better shot with it.

[Cool Breeze]

Well, as much as I think I'm doing things right, this is a much different trigger than what I'm used to: P22 and Kimber 1911... So, I have compiled all of your suggestions and now I need some range time to put it to the test!

Thanks!

[Rubb]

Yep...it would've been more accurate if you were a revolver guy :)

[jocko]

Well, as much as I think I'm doing things right, this is a much different trigger than what I'm used to: P22 and Kimber 1911... So, I have compiled all of your suggestions and now I need some range time to put it to the test!

Thanks!

getthere,just lower ur standards a tad. It is what it is. Kahrs arenot the easiest gun to shoot. Never compare it to a 1911, just two different trigger systems. rangetime is important,pracxtice close 5-7 yards, forgot more about groups and concentrate on the front sight. POA is good for this gun, u can get accurate but more than anything u can get fast with POA sooting, accept 3-4"groupls at 5 yards. Ur not gonna have a sand bag or a bench rest if SHTF so practice with kahrs more than anything IMO the way u might haveto fight to save ur life. Were not taking about hitting 5 pop cans in a arow and winning a teddy bear.:amflag: Iam a horrible shot with my pMJ9 and I havve many thousands of rounds throutgh it, But IMO Ican do the job needed at a close distance---or I wouldnot carry it. just stick with it, takes some of the tips the guys here mentioned, test them all out..

[Allen]

Cool Breeze stated even his friends had a problem with his gun, is it possible there could be something wrong with it? Just asking since I'm a fairly recent new CM9 owner and still getting used to it but haven't tried any shots at 30 feet yet.

[muggsy]

Cool Breeze stated even his friends had a problem with his gun, is it possible there could be something wrong with it? Just asking since I'm a fairly recent new CM9 owner and still getting used to it but haven't tried any shots at 30 feet yet.

The fact that his friend had a problem with the gun means nothing. Many people have problems with accuracy when shooting guns with long double action trigger pulls. It takes training and practice to get good with them.

[otium]

Well, there could be something wrong with it, but it might be trigger control especially if the OP is right handed.

With the short distance between where the trigger breaks and with the extra long trigger pull, I found I tended to curl my finger tip on the trigger slightly and it would cause the shots to roll left and low (right handed). If left handed it usually shows as being low right.

Try this with the gun empty, watch when you pull the trigger that your trigger finger pad stays perpendicular to the gun frame all the way through the pull including the break. I'd guess just as it breaks there is where you might see the control fall off just a bit.

I found it helped me to try keeping the end/last joint of my trigger finger basically limp and pull through with the middle trigger finger joint. This would help me keep the pad on the trigger more perpendicular to the frame all the way through the pull until it broke.

For me it seemed to help keep things aligned all the way through the pull a little better and reduce the occurrence of the low left shots.

[yqtszhj]

Well, as much as I think I'm doing things right, this is a much different trigger than what I'm used to: P22 and Kimber 1911... So, I have compiled all of your suggestions and now I need some range time to put it to the test!

Thanks!

Hang in there. I've been shooting my Kahr's so much (and I shoot them well now) that I struggle with my 1911's or any SA trigger now. It used to be the other way around.

If I don't pay attention I try and "Long Pull" the SA triggers and end up jerking the trigger and shoot low. Always a learning process... :confused:

Like I think Rev Ray said, lots of dry fire practice will help w/ the DA style trigger.

[jocko]

u haventtried the snap caps!!!! First thing u have to find out isif it is the gun or u. Personally 99.5%ofthetimeit is shooter error. Once u realize it is you then you will work on it fully knowing it isn't a gun issue. Ucan't fix agun issues, kahr can,. U can fix YOU.

Kahrs aren't an easy gun to master, their loooong smooth trigger is the source of ur inaccuracy. get a tad closer 5-7 yards and work in that area. If ur expecting same hole accuracyk, then u bought the wrong gun.I haveover 32K+ roundsout of my PMJ9 and I can tell you I stilldo not shoot it good at all.It saddens me to say it to, but thtis a fact. My range targets are the FBI "Q" silhouette bowling pin targets. I can keep all inside of that target at 7 yards easily. Mnd ya, they might be all over that target but they are there. I accept that. U might try also just POA shooting, see the front sight clearly and fire away. Your no differentthan 75%of the new kahr owners ,but they all seemedtowork out their issues in time.Keep ur range sessions short. Shooter gets tired and doesn't know it and then things go allto hell....

[pbagley]

Thank you for starting this thread. I've been struggling with accuracy and my CM9 as well. I'm an old bullseye shooter, so sight alignment and trigger control are something I'm reasonably familiar with. I've been out of competition for around 25 years now, so the skills have slipped a bit.

Back to the CM9 - I find that with my gun, standing with a two hand hold, I can keep all 10 on a 25 yard repair center (10.5" by 10.5") at 25 yards with 115gr loads. This is my minimum standard for a carry gun. If I cannot hit a repair center every time at 25 yards with no stress then I feel that I have no business carrying the gun in public. My personal standard, I'm not imposing this on anyone else.

The factory 115 gr. fmj's hold a repair center, but not with the kind of grouping I'd like to see. The groups are rather large with few in the black using a 6 o'clock hold. Defensive loads of the same weight do better, but not a lot better.

124gr's shoot about 4"-6" high at 25 yards. Accuracy (group size) is about the same.

By contrast, I am very happy with the accuracy of my CW45. Nearly the same trigger, slightly more grip and slightly longer sight radius.

If anyone is getting good accuracy with their CM9 I'd like to hear about the ammo they are using. Thanks in advance.

[crazyjz]

As has been suggested in nearly every response to your post, it may very well be a problem you are having with the long double action trigger pull.

If it's not the shooter, it's the gun. Everybody knows somebody who shoots handguns well. Make arrangements to meet with that person at a range (usually (not always) range officers can shoot just about anything). Let them shoot it at the range you normally practice at. If they are hitting the target using some variation of the pumpkin on a post sight picture--it's you!

If they have the same problem you have, forget snap caps etc. and call up Kahr. There's a problem.

[sas PM9]

Thank you for starting this thread. I've been struggling with accuracy and my CM9 as well. I'm an old bullseye shooter, so sight alignment and trigger control are something I'm reasonably familiar with. I've been out of competition for around 25 years now, so the skills have slipped a bit.

Back to the CM9 - I find that with my gun, standing with a two hand hold, I can keep all 10 on a 25 yard repair center (10.5" by 10.5") at 25 yards with 115gr loads. This is my minimum standard for a carry gun. If I cannot hit a repair center every time at 25 yards with no stress then I feel that I have no business carrying the gun in public. My personal standard, I'm not imposing this on anyone else.

The factory 115 gr. fmj's hold a repair center, but not with the kind of grouping I'd like to see. The groups are rather large with few in the black using a 6 o'clock hold. Defensive loads of the same weight do better, but not a lot better.

124gr's shoot about 4"-6" high at 25 yards. Accuracy (group size) is about the same.

By contrast, I am very happy with the accuracy of my CW45. Nearly the same trigger, slightly more grip and slightly longer sight radius.

If anyone is getting good accuracy with their CM9 I'd like to hear about the ammo they are using. Thanks in advance.


PB:

Well, I don't know if it is "good" accuracy, but it is pretty good for me. The picture attached represents 18 rounds of Federal 115g FMJ out of a 100 pack from W-M. The target is 8.5" by 11" and it was shot at 25 feet, modified weaver stance with thumbs forward. It is about as good as I can shoot with ANY handgun. I'm well pleased.

It was fired out of my new CM9, and was the second 18 rounds fired through this handgun.

-steve

[pbagley]

Edit to provide slightly better photos....

Here is what I thought was good accuracy with the CW45, shot on a 50 foot target at 25 yards (not 25 feet).
http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/13/62/95/74/img_2010.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=622&u=13629574)

And here is one of my best 25 yard targets with the CM9. I have one other that scored this well, the other 800 rounds I've fired were not this good.
http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/13/62/95/74/img_2011.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=623&u=13629574)

Here is the other good target from the CM9. Note the hit at the right edge:
http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/13/62/95/74/img_2013.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=625&u=13629574)

Sadly I forgot the 25 yard centers the day I had it to the range. Sigh... Sorry these are on different targets, making the comparison more difficult. Roughly speaking the 6 ring on the .45 target is about the same diameter as the 8 ring on the 9mm target. I'll try to do better next time.

Point I'm trying to get to is that the CW45 has so far been reasonably consistent since about half way through the first box of TulAmmo. Speaking of TulAmmo, here's how it shot:
http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/13/62/95/74/img_2012.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=624&u=13629574)

The CM9 has been inconsistent, some targets having only 9 hits and one off into space someplace around the edges and the 50 ft targets often having none in the black. Best group has been with defensive ammo. No photo, sorry.

I'm willing to concede that it is the shooter and not the gun. One of these days I'll bring a rest and do a real ammo test. That should settle the debate on whether the gun in inaccurate, or the shooter is inaccurate. I bought a 100 round box of Federal at WallyWorld recently, and hopefully I can reproduce your results - Excellent shooting.

[gmcjetpilot]

That is some fancy shooting at 75 FEET with a small handgun like the CM9!

I'm not sure what purpose shooting a self defense pistol at 75 feet serves.
Most shootings are at 3 yards or 9 feet.

Not sure how looking at great target groupings at 75 feet helps the OP, but
I would tell him to shoot slow and keep the target at 3 or 5 yards to start.
Then do all the normal stuff, focus on front sight, breath timing and slow
steady trigger pull (where when it goes bang is a surprise).

[JMI]

Very good manual about pistol shooting here (http://www.keepcalmandcarry.net/downloads.php?IDNum=4) (United States Army Marksmanship Guide). Good discussion about sight picture in chapter 2.

Good luck.

Jim

[pbagley]

That is some fancy shooting at 75 FEET with a small handgun like the CM9!

I'm not sure what purpose shooting a self defense pistol at 75 feet serves.
Most shootings are at 3 yards or 9 feet.

Not sure how looking at great target groupings at 75 feet helps the OP, but
I would tell him to shoot slow and keep the target at 3 or 5 yards to start.
Then do all the normal stuff, focus on front sight, breath timing and slow
steady trigger pull (where when it goes bang is a surprise).

Thanks for asking. You are correct, there are few defensive uses of this kind of firearm that happen at 25 yards, or 75 feet. Most are 10 feet or less. Under stress accuracy will be reduced. A lot. So for me, if I can shoot it well enough at 25 yards, then when under stress I _should_ be able to shoot accurately enough to save my life. More importantly, I should have enough control to prevent an accident. Years ago one of our local PD's engaged an armed individual, and managed to hit a woman a few blocks down the road. I never want to do that. I tried a simulator with my son once. Great experience. Interesting to learn that marksmanship transferred to the Glock and Sig they handed me. I was slow, but accurate. Generally I shot about the same time as the simulator shot at me. I hope to never be in any of those situations in real life.

[gmcjetpilot]

Howdy folks, been reading for a while... My CM9 has been flawless- not
one single issue (with 350rds so far), other than the accuracy. I probably
need to try to take pics of the sights aiming at the target to explain, but if
I aim normal- with the front dot just above the rear white square- so the
dot is sitting in the notch, at 30 feet, I don't even hit the paper. I am
waaay low and left. I literally have to angle the gun up so that the top
plane of the rear sights is equal to the top front of the slide- the entire
front sight is visible above the rear sight- just to get it on paper. Then, I
put that on top right of the paper and I'm pretty decent. but it is sooo
different from what I'm used to.

I've had friends try it and the look at me like... whats wrong with your
gun?? I know 30 feet is probably maxing out, but geez, I can't even say I
could hit a man sized target in my home from one end to the other. as for
the "left", the rear sight seems perfectly centered in the dovetail. Any
ideas? ThanksI'd blame you 100% in the past, but it could be the sights contributing. I
had to slide my rear sight to the right to correct to the left. I was happy.
Then after about 250 or 300 rounds I really tried to see how accurate it
was. I found it shot low at 30 feet.... I took out the shooter (me) factor,
using a bench and rest. I shaved my front sight down a little so it will
shoot a little higher. It worked. With that said it's a self defense gun that
might be shot at very close range under pressure, may be with out time
to sight, take a breath, squeeze real slow.... The target might be moving
as well.

Not to bash the Kahr CM9, my Glock 26 Gen 4 is easier to shoot, thus
more accurate. It is a wider (double stack) gun that is heavier. I can do
double taps easier with G26. Target pistol the Kahr CM9 it's not. Accurate
for a short sub-compact 9mm self defense, heck yea! I had my Kahr CM9
in my front pocket all day.... when I don't feel like putting on my hip
pancake holsters to carry my Glock or Kahr. The Glock isn't a pocket gun.

I'd suggest you bring it in, 3 or 5 yards (7 at most), real statistically likely
distances of gun fights. Then take your time and do all the normal things,
front sight in focus and rear sight and impact point (target) blurry; take a
deep breath, exhale, again inhale and hold; then slowly squeeze trigger
without any anticipation, bang will be a surprise. Then repeat the process.
You should see a tight group, and if the sights are off you can make some
adjustment. In the end it's likely some or most due to your experience
with the a new gun and your technique, which practice should cure.

[Tiggereast]

Hi all, I am a new CM9 owner, pretty regular shooter but with Glocks and My Beretta. I went to the range to day with my CM9 and expected some issues with mags, misfeeds whatever, but all went perfectly, over 150 rds today :) But I also was shooting low and left at 7-9 ft where I expect to "use" this gun (hopefully never!) and also at 25 ft. Sounds like your suggestions above make sense, and I will try them. Good news was I was definitely in my "comfort zone" about hitting the target, might not have hit it's "heart" but sure did hit center mass! :) Thx look forward to contributing.

[Selcouth]

I know this thread is a little old, but I thought this picture might help some of you guys out. Keep in mind this is for a right hand shooter:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee2/txslow6/Guns/image_zps5a911349.jpg

[gmcjetpilot]

Yes, shooter induced error is real and likely, but the stock sights could be improved, at least for me. I made a few post on the last pages of this thread:


http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=22214


I was consistently shooting low, while using bench, rest, slow trigger pull,
and it was proportional to the distance from target.... I shaved the top of my front sight and narrowed it. I also changed the white marking. See the link. Cheers.

[muggsy]

Cool Breeze, here's a link to a you tube video that may be of help to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKdXmcdB5WE&list=UU64sOqMTpNhUy5_SzxfWGoQ&feature=c4-overview

[jocko]

I won't even go into details. but IT IS NOT THE GUN. Please don 't compare a Glock trigger system to a kahr trigger system. totally different systems/.

It is shooter error, no doubt in my mind..PERIOD.

[feedramp]

Yes, even I have learned that sometimes the slighest adjustment may help ...

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz67/jeffdavis_photos/TargetRH.png (http://s814.photobucket.com/user/jeffdavis_photos/media/TargetRH.png.html)

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz67/jeffdavis_photos/trigger-contact.jpg (http://s814.photobucket.com/user/jeffdavis_photos/media/trigger-contact.jpg.html)

[Tilos]

Dry firing will show the affects of trigger pull on the gun.

At the range have someone load a single round, or empty case and then let you "shoot" it, to show YOU how much an empty gun will recoil :faint2:
This happens with an empty gun too, if the slide doesn't lock open or a revolver shooter that can't count:D

This will humble most "I know how to shoot" shooters.

[jocko]

snap caps in with live rounds loaded in ther magazine so u don't know how many or where at in the magazine will show ur shootin g errors faster than dry firing.

In dry firing u never experience the bang thing, and that is the difference IMO. It is called anticiaption and most never know it is hapening with the bang thing, but in dry firing u know there is no bang thing gonna happen. Big difference.

Low and left is so so typical of a righgt hand shooter with kahrs who is anticiating. Just saying.

[pbagley]

Range Day today, which I've managed to stretch into three posts in three threads. That's one way to get the post count up I guess.

This one has to do with the CM9. After a lot of trial and error I found a better load with my gun, at least on a 25f day on the outdoor range here in MN. Next trip this load could be all over the place, but today it was doing as well as any premium defensive load I've tried.

Shot at 25 yards using a 2 hand hold and a 6 o'clock sight picture.
http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/13/62/95/74/p2170316.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=634&u=13629574)

And on a 25 yard target:
http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/13/62/95/74/20140210.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=635&u=13629574)
Yea, there are only 9 here. I do not know what happened, and there is no obvious double. I must have made a mistake in sighting.

I'm happy with this one. The group size is as good as I've done so far with my CW45. The other four loads I tried today, using Power Pistol powder and 115gr Berry's prn's, were no where near as good. The same powder charge with a Berry's 115gr RN was a lot less accurate. In general the Berry's 115 gr. shows pressure signs (flattening of the primer) with less powder than the Rocky Mountain Supply 115gr PHP. You'd think that a 115gr bullet from each supplier would behave the same, but this was not true today. Maybe one is slightly larger or has a longer contact surface with the bore. No idea, but I plan to buy more of the RMS 115 PHP's.

So to those looking for good accuracy from their CM9's, keep trying. With a little work, maybe some luck, you will achieve decent accuracy. I have not been able to get good groups from factory RN ammo, only factory premium HP defensive ammo that I cannot afford to shoot. For me reloads have been the way to go. As always, take all loading data seen on-line with a grain of salt. Cross check all loads with reliable loading manuals. I can take no responsibility for your reloads.

[sas PM9]

pb:

That's some great shooting!

You are wringing out excellent accuracy out of a close contact PD weapon.

I almost never shoot at 25 yards, old eyes and progressive lenses make it extremely difficult to see the target (even fuzzily) and the front sight well enough to even hit the paper.

I'm perfectly happy with 25 foot distance.

-steve