From Glock to Kahr: How to get used to the Kahr?

[intargc]

I have recently purchased a Kahr P9. I have been shooting Glocks for a year and train quite often in groups and private training for concealed carry and tactical training. I have always used my Glock 19. I am quite used to Glock and firing the Kahr has proven to be difficult for accurate and quick follow up shots.

I carried the 19 for a while, but after a while it became more of a hassle than I could cope with and given I'm 5'9 and 165 lbs, it prints like a mofo on me. So I went with the Kahr. The Kahr carries wonderfully! However, it is just very difficult to shoot for me. Add the fact that all of my training is done with Glocks, coming back to the Kahr just makes me feel like I'm having to relearn again and again.

For those that train regularly with Glocks and have owned or do own a kahr. Does it get easier as time goes on? I get that if you don't train tactically and regularly, this isn't that big of a deal as anyone can shoot a paper target in a standard range... But keeping muscle memory for me is a big deal. That, however, is matched with the strong desire to have a firearm that conceals well and is somewhat tolerable.

My main issues is the trigger of the Kahr. I love how smooth it is, but the really long pull and reset on it make things very difficult to get straight shots and quick follow ups without taking my time and pulling the trigger very slowly. The other issue I have is keeping a firm grip on the small frame... With the Glock, it's thick enough to where keeping a firm grip requires very little attention for me... but with smaller framed pistols, my hands feel as if they're wrapping around too much and therefore I guess my hands tend to naturally ease up on the grip to compensate... if that makes sense. But primarily, it's the trigger.

I'm quite sure that if I stopped shooting Glock all together and focused in on the Kahr, I would be fine. However, I don't think that I would want to carry the Kahr for anything other than concealed carry in the city due to the lack of capacity.

Any opinions from those in a similar situation are welcome. Any tips on getting used to the Kahr trigger are very welcome... and particularly from those that train tactically and swap back and forth between the Kahr and Glock.

[jlottmc]

My thoughts look like this: Train with the Kahr, shoot the heck out of it, then do the Glock the same way. One thing that will also help is just to handle the Kahr, dry runs etc. soon it will feel like it was made in your hand. Repetition and rounds are the best way I know of to get where you want to be.

[hsart]

I have recently purchased a Kahr P9. I have been shooting Glocks for a year and train quite often in groups and private training for concealed carry and tactical training. I have always used my Glock 19. I am quite used to Glock and firing the Kahr has proven to be difficult for accurate and quick follow up shots.

I carried the 19 for a while, but after a while it became more of a hassle than I could cope with and given I'm 5'9 and 165 lbs, it prints like a mofo on me. So I went with the Kahr. The Kahr carries wonderfully! However, it is just very difficult to shoot for me. Add the fact that all of my training is done with Glocks, coming back to the Kahr just makes me feel like I'm having to relearn again and again.

For those that train regularly with Glocks and have owned or do own a kahr. Does it get easier as time goes on? I get that if you don't train tactically and regularly, this isn't that big of a deal as anyone can shoot a paper target in a standard range... But keeping muscle memory for me is a big deal. That, however, is matched with the strong desire to have a firearm that conceals well and is somewhat tolerable.

My main issues is the trigger of the Kahr. I love how smooth it is, but the really long pull and reset on it make things very difficult to get straight shots and quick follow ups without taking my time and pulling the trigger very slowly. The other issue I have is keeping a firm grip on the small frame... With the Glock, it's thick enough to where keeping a firm grip requires very little attention for me... but with smaller framed pistols, my hands feel as if they're wrapping around too much and therefore I guess my hands tend to naturally ease up on the grip to compensate... if that makes sense. But primarily, it's the trigger.

I'm quite sure that if I stopped shooting Glock all together and focused in on the Kahr, I would be fine. However, I don't think that I would want to carry the Kahr for anything other than concealed carry in the city due to the lack of capacity.

Any opinions from those in a similar situation are welcome. Any tips on getting used to the Kahr trigger are very welcome... and particularly from those that train tactically and swap back and forth between the Kahr and Glock.
I have a Glock 19 as my primary for home protection, and have trained with it tactically. I have a Kahr PM45 for carry. A P9 should be as close to a G19 as Kahr can get, and personally I am more accurate with the PM45 now because I mostly train with it. Your P9 should be more accurate than my PM45 all things considered since it has less recoil and a longer barrel. I do need to get in more dry practice with the G19 to even out my accuracy between the two. The main difference for you, IMO, is the trigger (not to mention magazine capacity). I miss the very short reset that the Glocks have but with enough practice and training with the Kahr I do not consider this a big issue. I actually like the Kahr trigger better. All I can say is the practice as much as you can with your Kahr since it is your carry weapon. 10 rounds assuming you carry a spare mag should be enough.

[intargc]

10 rounds assuming you carry a spare mag should be enough.

It's funny cause this was a big issue for me and so I started asking around and got a really good answer about capacity from my instructor that has been in many gun fights in his life time as a Marine and an Atlanta, GA officer as well as a couple as a civilian.

He said to me that most assailants travel in packs. It's very rarely 1 person confronting you. In his experience as an officer, he found it was typically 2-4 assailants against 1 person. If you have at least 8 rounds before a reload, you can give everyone a round and then everyone gets seconds.

I found that to be pretty sound advice and very in line with how I train. If there are multiple assailants, everyone gets a round and then you come back around and give everyone seconds... So, considering the P9 has 7+1 and an extra 8 round mag, this makes good sense.

[deadhead1971]

You mentioned 2-4 assailants. That's why I stopped carrying the Ruger LCP. :)

Where are your hits on the target with the P9? If you are right handed, you may be hitting left of point of aim or low and left.

My groups at first were about 3 to 4" left of point of aim. I was sure the sights were off but I hung in there and practiced, and now my groups are more centered and tighter together.

I don't have a P9; I have a PM9 which is great for pocket carry.

Here is a history of my shooting. Compare the target photos on the first page to the 3rd page.

http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistols/444-accuracy-pm9.html

[jocko]

tWO different trigger systems. Glocks are easier to shoot more accurately, that being said the kahrs are very accurate , just takes more time to get to know the gun and its looooong trigger system.

I can shoot the eyes out of things with my tuned G19, best gun I have ever shot for accuracy. I can't do that with my PM9. IO shoot it good at 10 yards and under but nothing like I can do with my g19, but the PM9 is with me 24/7. that is the big difference for me between the two guns.

You keep shooting that kahr and ur groups will tighten up, just IMO don't expect the total accuracy that your glock gives you, unless u are one hell of a double action shooter for truly that is what kahrs are..

[DKD]

Intargc,

Before I got my two kahrs I was a 1911 kind of guy for many years, so my learning curve was even steeper than your transitioning from a Glock to a kahr.

Like all the boys here said, you'll get alot better after a while...just treat the Kahr like a smoothed out revolver and you'll do just fine. With a little more range time and dry fire practice you will learn to take up the slack or travel in the kahr trigger then press the trigger to touch the rounds off and get off the trigger just like a revolver. With a little practice it becomes second nature and quick follow up shots can be delivered with no problems.

[Frankhenrylee]

To me the long heavy trigger actually helps me out. I just point and shoot, don't figure I'll have time to really aim. The long pull and extra weight lets me somewhat man handle it. I'm not a professional shooter or anywhere close, but there's something about this style of trigger that helps me stay on target when shooting multiple rounds. I can keep this guns holes tighter than any other gun I've shot when dumping clips on target. Try just letting loose on a target at about 10 yds. Forget about technique. Somehow they just fall into place. I shoot the PM40 and can say that I've put rapid fire groups of 5-6 rounds in phone book size groups at 7 yds with ease, pretty much the norm. I know thats not great for advice for longer range, but who's got time to aim when your getting shot at.

[recoilguy]

tWO different trigger systems. Glocks are easier to shoot more accurately, that being said the kahrs are very accurate , just takes more time to get to know the gun and its looooong trigger system.



Very wise words....very true.

RCG

[intargc]

I can get 2-3" groupings with the Glock on a good day at about 5 yards. On a bad day it's more consistently 3" groupings. With the Kahr, it's 12". Haha. Joking a tad, but it's still really, really bad.

It's pretty consistently about 3-4" lower than where I intended to shoot. It's not really to the left all that much. It's as if when I'm pulling the trigger, it's pulling the muzzle down right at the breaking point. However, again, when I do pull it very slowly (as in, take a 2-3 seconds with each pull), I'm much more on target.

During class, we're not allowed to take that much time really. We're moving and shooting rapidly. A lot of point shooting and double and triple taps are happening. We're moving the left, right, forward, etc... They expect us to hit the target 2-5 times quickly. At times like this, I don't even know where my shots went because I don't see them on the actual target at times! Couple that with the way the first round tends to nose dive into the feed ramp when I load a new magazine and the slide isn't locked back (after a type 1 malfunction drill or even if my thumb accidentally hit the slide lock on the last round fired) and the entire class gets frustrating very quickly for me...

I know it's my doing... I'm not blaming it on the pistol by any means. I'm just not good with this long trigger pull with fast shooting. I consider myself a decent shooter and want to get the most out of my classes when I train, so it just gets frustrating and I always feel like I need to go back to my Glock or similar type trigger (I shoot 1911 and M&P just as well as the Glock and love both of those pistols as well)

[jocko]

INTARGC. Ur dead right. just not an easy gun to master like the glocks or 1911's or the Smith M & P is even more precocked than the glocks even, damn near single action.

Kahrs have a loooooong 3/8" trigger travel to the bang thing, totally smooth as u well know but it takes time to get used to it. U can stage it if you concentrating, but personally i don't train that way as in a defense situation ur not gonna stage that gun, so just get used tothe double action system and I don't think your still gonna shoot groups like u can ur glock but at 10 yards you will be able to keep um allin a pie plate. It is what it is a close up personal defense gun that will indeed save your life. Smoe kahr owners can shoot the eyes out of their kahrs to, so it can be done, ne just has to to work at it harder. I have always considered my self one who shoots alot but not really a shooter per say. I am not that good with my PM9 but I truly love to shoot that gun more than my G19 or for that matter my K9 even. I gues it is maybe the challenge to. but it is my 24/7 carry peace and I know this gun inside and out and I trust it totally. One should shoot alot the gun that he carrys.
another reason why I like to practice my defense stuff with the big FBI "Q" silhouette target. no bullseyes, BG don't wear bullseyes, big silhoulette body typle bowling pin type target and I can keep um all inside that target, they might be spread all over hell but they are in there. One thing about it, if I shoot a BG with my PM9,he is going to have hole sin him from his nose to his toes.
It is easy to get alittle frustrated in shooting a kahr, but to me it is much more easier to fall in love with these little pocket rockets...

[hsart]

another reason why I like to practice my defense stuff with the big FBI "Q" silhouette target. no bullseyes, BG don't wear bullseyes, big silhoulette body typle bowling pin type target and I can keep um all inside that target, they might be spread all over hell but they are in there. .

I do 80% of my range practice with some sort of large silhouette or BG photo target for the same reason. If the target gives you the approximate size of the BG at various distances, then you will not be surprised when confronted suddenly by a bad situation at any distance. I like using a target that can be set to move in to me from 15 yards while I draw from my holster - my local range has one lane with that capability. For testing/breaking in my guns I like to use bullseye targets also so I can get an idea of the accuracy or if anything may be off (most likely me). Getting back to my G19 vs. PM45 for tactical training those Glock 15 round mags sure are nice. I like to make sure my tac pants have at least 6 magazines fully loaded so I can stay in the "fight"/ training exercise without needing to excuse myself to reload.

[MattTheKnife]

I carry my Glock 19 and my CW9 together almost daily. I have no worries over the different trigger systems. Yes, there is a noticeable difference, but I practice with them both a lot and often together during the same range trip. It just takes time and practice.

With that being said; I'm looking into a Sig with the DAK trigger system to replace my 19. Those trigger systems are very similar in feel.

[JodyH]

No offense to your current instructor, but you should seek out another instructor who will help you concentrate more on the fundamentals of shooting.
Sight alignment, trigger control and grip.
With solid fundamentals you won't have any problem changing from one pistol to another.
From some of your initial statements it doesn't sound to me like you are 100% solid on the fundamentals.
Get sight alignment, trigger control and grip down solid, then work on "tactical shooting".

[JodyH]

If there are multiple assailants, everyone gets a round and then you come back around and give everyone seconds...
Good in theory, sucks in practice.
Get yourself into a good "force on force" class and you'll find that "boarding house rules" just does not work in a dynamic situation.
First, as soon as the gun comes out, most people start moving.
By the time you shoot BG#1, BG#2 and BG#3 aren't just standing around waiting for their serving of lead, they are either running away or attacking.
Then there's the fact that handgun rounds suck at killing people.
You shoot BG#1 and start looking around for his accomplices (who jumped aside when you started shooting), while you're trying to draw a bead on BG#2 who's bum rushing you from the side, BG#1 decides he's not ready to die today from one bullet and punches you in the side of your head. BG#3 meanwhile ran off 5 yards and has drawn his gat and is ready to blast in your direction as soon as he assumes the proper gangsta grip.

A better plan when facing multiples is shoot your way out of the situation.
What that means is shoot whatever is between you and the exit as many times as possible, as quickly as possible, while moving towards that exit.

[JodyH]

I can get 2-3" groupings with the Glock on a good day at about 5 yards. On a bad day it's more consistently 3" groupings.

It's pretty consistently about 3-4" lower than where I intended to shoot

At times like this, I don't even know where my shots went because I don't see them on the actual target at times.
Breakdown in the fundamentals.
At 5 yards slow fire you should have 4 out of 5 rounds touching with a Glock 19, basically one ragged hole about an inch in diameter.

Looking for your shots on the target is another sign that you aren't solid on your fundamentals. Looking for your shots on the target is usually associated with a poor follow through. Poor follow through is often indicated by pulling your shots low (sound familiar?).

Get thee to a instructor who will work on your fundamentals.

[ltxi]

Coming from revolvers and 1911s, Glocks have always felt like the bastard stepchild to me. Kahrs have always felt "normal".

[jlottmc]

Well said ltxi...well said.

[intargc]

No offense to your current instructor, but you should seek out another instructor who will help you concentrate more on the fundamentals of shooting.
Sight alignment, trigger control and grip.
With solid fundamentals you won't have any problem changing from one pistol to another.
From some of your initial statements it doesn't sound to me like you are 100% solid on the fundamentals.
Get sight alignment, trigger control and grip down solid, then work on "tactical shooting".

When I'm taking advanced classes, it's not a time for fundamentals. If I need to take a fundamental class, I will take one. It's no fault of my instructor.

Besides, I shoot fine with the glock. I can get right on target with the glock and keep up just fine in the tactical and advanced classes... It's when I use tha kahr that I start screwing up. I'm just not used to the trigger...

[intargc]

Good in theory, sucks in practice.
Get yourself into a good "force on force" class and you'll find that "boarding house rules" just does not work in a dynamic situation.
First, as soon as the gun comes out, most people start moving.
By the time you shoot BG#1, BG#2 and BG#3 aren't just standing around waiting for their serving of lead, they are either running away or attacking.
Then there's the fact that handgun rounds suck at killing people.
You shoot BG#1 and start looking around for his accomplices (who jumped aside when you started shooting), while you're trying to draw a bead on BG#2 who's bum rushing you from the side, BG#1 decides he's not ready to die today from one bullet and punches you in the side of your head. BG#3 meanwhile ran off 5 yards and has drawn his gat and is ready to blast in your direction as soon as he assumes the proper gangsta grip.

A better plan when facing multiples is shoot your way out of the situation.
What that means is shoot whatever is between you and the exit as many times as possible, as quickly as possible, while moving towards that exit.

Possibly... But he did give us a few police case examples of where a guy was being attacked by multiple assaliants with guns and in those cases the person was shot by the second or third assaliant by the time he got to them.

It's debatable, of course. But I like how my instructor has been in many hand-to-hand and gun fight situations and can pull from his own experience as well as his investigative experience as a police officer...

[intargc]

Breakdown in the fundamentals.
At 5 yards slow fire you should have 4 out of 5 rounds touching with a Glock 19, basically one ragged hole about an inch in diameter.

Looking for your shots on the target is another sign that you aren't solid on your fundamentals. Looking for your shots on the target is usually associated with a poor follow through. Poor follow through is often indicated by pulling your shots low (sound familiar?).

Get thee to a instructor who will work on your fundamentals.


Not sure where I said I was doing slow fire with the Glock. When we train, we are generally doing point shooting and fast paced shooting. 2-3" groups at 5 yards doing that may not be excellent, but it's good and will definitely hit a bad guys vital areas.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding... My eyes stay on the sights through the entire drill. However, after the drill is over everyone is obviously going to look at their target to see where they hit and what they need to work on. We go through 3-4 mags before the drill is over. But I'm not peeking at where I hit the target at any time until I'm done with the drill.

I have taken many fundamental classes. I actually retake them once a year along with the conceal carry and tactical classes. My instructor isn't the problem. If the class isn't a fundamentals class, they aren't going to teach fundamentals. Again, I feel like I shoot fine with the glock. I can move a shoot at 3, 5 and 7 yards and get fist sized groups. No issue... Bring the kahr into play and I have issues...

[hsart]

I have a couple of thoughts here... every 'situation' is different. I do not believe that any situational training can cover anything but rudimentary awareness and some potential responses. What I believe is important are two areas - one is absolute knowledge of your hardware from sight alignment and trigger control to emergency reloads and clearing basic malfunctions. Dry and wet practice as much as possible and continually get 'expert trainers' tune-ups from time to time to get you aware of your bad habits. The second is knowing how you would react in adrenaline inducing situations; tactical training from various sources; learn how to get in a combat mindset and stay there. Know your strengths, work on your weaknesses. Ultimately it is not the weapon but the person behind it. Anyway just a few thoughts.

[intargc]

Coming from revolvers and 1911s, Glocks have always felt like the bastard stepchild to me. Kahrs have always felt "normal".

Ok... Thanks for adding nothing to this conversation to bash on glock.

I also shoot just fine with 1911's and love those pistols too. As well as with XD, M&P and other pistols. Whether the Glock isn't your favorite pistol doesn't really help the conversation...

[intargc]

I have a couple of thoughts here... every 'situation' is different. I do not believe that any situational training can cover anything but rudimentary awareness and some potential responses. What I believe is important are two areas - one is absolute knowledge of your hardware from sight alignment and trigger control to emergency reloads and clearing basic malfunctions. Dry and wet practice as much as possible and continually get 'expert trainers' tune-ups from time to time to get you aware of your bad habits. The second is knowing how you would react in adrenaline inducing situations; tactical training from various sources; learn how to get in a combat mindset and stay there. Know your strengths, work on your weaknesses. Ultimately it is not the weapon but the person behind it. Anyway just a few thoughts.

I agree with this. I am not blaiming the pistol. I'm just looking for advice on how to juggle getting used to the Kahr trigger while also shooting other shorter pill triggers like the glock or others with a similar trigger...

[hsart]

For me it was constant practice with both. I can pickup up either now at random - my Glock 19 or my PM45 - and immediately have the feel for the trigger. I've run about 5000 rounds through my G19 and getting close to 2000 in my PM45 over the past 12 months, mostly range work but also including some tactical training. I do not have the accuracy of a match shooter, but I can put them where they count from my holster very quickly. So for me it is constant practice - I like the combo of the Glock and Kahr as they each serve my particular use and purpose - but that's me.

[JodyH]

I agree with this. I am not blaiming the pistol. I'm just looking for advice on how to juggle getting used to the Kahr trigger while also shooting other shorter pill triggers like the glock or others with a similar trigger...
Your fundamentals suck...
But hey, keep looking for the quick easy fix, I'm sure you'll find it.
:rolleyes:

[intargc]

Your fundamentals suck...
But hey, keep looking for the quick easy fix, I'm sure you'll find it.
:rolleyes:

Thanks for proving you have no valuable input and that you can't read.

[intargc]

For me it was constant practice with both. I can pickup up either now at random - my Glock 19 or my PM45 - and immediately have the feel for the trigger. I've run about 5000 rounds through my G19 and getting close to 2000 in my PM45 over the past 12 months, mostly range work but also including some tactical training. I do not have the accuracy of a match shooter, but I can put them where they count from my holster very quickly. So for me it is constant practice - I like the combo of the Glock and Kahr as they each serve my particular use and purpose - but that's me.

Cool. That's generally what I wanted to hear before all of the comments from the peanut gallery started about my instructor, my firearm selection and my fundamentals. I just wanted to see what other glock owners were doing and if they were having success as per my OP. I appreciate your help.

[Kuzzy]

Intargc I think you got the wrong gun. I had the same experience with the Sig P250--way too long a trigger pull and reset--shooting on the move is a frustrating chore. You basically love the Glock 19 and I assume you tried the glock 26 and thought it was too fat a grip. So you wanted to find a gun that would not "print" and yet be easy and handle. I have two recommendations to get shootability and concealability and allow you to stick with what you know. If you want a non "pocket" pistol you want a single stack Glock. Only Glock does not make a make a single stack 9. But you're in luck because the thin Walther PPS IS the single stack 9 that Glock should have made. If you want a pocket pistol get a Diamondback DB380. I would tell you to sell the Kahr and get both of these others. The PPS is very soft shooting, very ergonomic, very accurate, very thin, pretty light, and can be shot as fast as a Glock. The trigger is a revelation after you put 1k rounds through it--better than the Glocks. The mag release some complain about but they are fools. In a gun this small you want a mag relese in this location--it avoids the inadvertant mag drops and can drop the mag without shifting the grip by using either the trigger finger or middle finger of your shooting hand. The PPS can knock out accurate shot after shot from 50ft no problem. The only other single stack nine I have significant time on is the Sig 239. Great gun. BUT it's a bit too heavy and big for the firepower that it carries and the trigger is not like a Glock. [If this was 1999 it would be my recommendation but its not!]

While it is true you can get more used to the Kahr trigger--why fix what isnt broken--you cant perform to the same level as with the Glock--which is why Glock rules practical production pistol sports like SSP IDPA. I have never seen a Kahr being used--because those triggers are awful (impeding speed AND accuracy) and the magazine capacities are too limited. [You might try concentrating more on your support hand grip to keep the pistol on target more steady while squezing the trigger] With current ammo prices it will be cheaper to sell the Kahr for a 150 dollar loss than to spend 1k+ dollars in ammo and training to try to "master the trigger." In addition the endless "staging the trigger" advice to counteract the excessively long pull is VERY BAD. It trains a very bad habit which you would not want to have going back to a Glock. [If you are not on target the damn finger is off the trigger. PERIOD. Excessively long triggers are not any safer really; they are only a bit more idiot proof.] The fact that you are seeking out training tell me you are not a mall ninja and probably have decent trigger finger discipline but you should film youself and see if you do.

If I was to ever meet those 4 guys who were going to inflict felonious violence I would absolutely feel comfortable defending with the PPS.

I am sure the Kahr fanboys will disagree but hey you are on Kahrtalk. If you were a revolver guy going to a semi auto then the Kahr trigger wouldnt be too bad to adapt to; however, you are not. You are a Glock guy so KISS.

One final consideration for concealing is the right holster (and garments) for you. Tell me what you have tried and I can make a suggestion for concealing that glock 19.

[hsart]

Cool. That's generally what I wanted to hear before all of the comments from the peanut gallery started about my instructor, my firearm selection and my fundamentals. I just wanted to see what other glock owners were doing and if they were having success as per my OP. I appreciate your help.
... and one more comment. Your P9 should be easier to integrate with the G19 as I am pretty sure that the P9 has the same type of recoil characteristics as the 9mm Glocks. I am assuming that the trigger action is very similar between the P9 and PM45 (I never shot a P9). The one difference that I first noted when I bought my PM45 was that after going bang the sight capture was a tad longer on the PM45 (due to more barrel lift). But once again this was solved by just running a lot of ammo through both.

[intargc]

I'm definitely dedicated to learn how to shoot the Kahr. I have a class coming up this weekend and I'm leaving my Glock at home. I will use the Kahr through the whole 1,200 round class... Maybe something will "click" during that time.

I love carrying this pistol and even though the trigger is long, I do love how smooth it is..

[jfrey]

A while back Jocko and I had a conversation about kahr's and 1911's. We agreed that they are completely different guns and shooting expectations were also greatly different. His suggestion was to shoot my Kahr CW9 and concentrate on the fundimentals. I did and it worked. I know I can shoot the 1911 but I had to learn how to shoot the kahr. The same seems to apply here for the OP. You can shoot the G19, now concentrate on the kahr. Put enough rounds down range to learn the new trigger, how it feels and when it will break the shot. My Kahr is no where as accurate as my 1911 but I have come to terms with that and I no longer expect it to be. The Kahr is a defensive weapon and serves well in that catagory. Practice some more and give it and yourself a chance. Hopefully things will come together. If it just won't work for you, maybe you need to consider a change to something else. Good luck in the mean time.

[intargc]

Intargc I think you got the wrong gun. I had the same experience with the Sig P250--way too long a trigger pull and reset--shooting on the move is a frustrating chore. You basically love the Glock 19 and I assume you tried the glock 26 and thought it was too fat a grip. So you wanted to find a gun that would not "print" and yet be easy and handle. I have two recommendations to get shootability and concealability and allow you to stick with what you know. If you want a non "pocket" pistol you want a single stack Glock. Only Glock does not make a make a single stack 9. But you're in luck because the thin Walther PPS IS the single stack 9 that Glock should have made. If you want a pocket pistol get a Diamondback DB380. I would tell you to sell the Kahr and get both of these others. The PPS is very soft shooting, very ergonomic, very accurate, very thin, pretty light, and can be shot as fast as a Glock. The trigger is a revelation after you put 1k rounds through it--better than the Glocks. The mag release some complain about but they are fools. In a gun this small you want a mag relese in this location--it avoids the inadvertant mag drops and can drop the mag without shifting the grip by using either the trigger finger or middle finger of your shooting hand. The PPS can knock out accurate shot after shot from 50ft no problem. The only other single stack nine I have significant time on is the Sig 239. Great gun. BUT it's a bit too heavy and big for the firepower that it carries and the trigger is not like a Glock. [If this was 1999 it would be my recommendation but its not!]

While it is true you can get more used to the Kahr trigger--why fix what isnt broken--you cant perform to the same level as with the Glock. Which is why Glock rules practical production pistol sports like SSP IDPA. I have never seen a Kahr being used--because those triggers are awful (impede speed AND accuracy) and the magazine capacities are too limited. [You might try concentrating more on your support hand grip to keep the pistol on target more steady while squezing the trigger] With current ammo prices it will be cheaper to sell the Kahr for a 150 dollar loss than to spend 1-2k dollars in ammo and training to try to "master the trigger." In addition the endless "staging the trigger" advice is VERY BAD. It trains a very bad habit which you would not want to have going back to a Glock. [If you are not on target the damn finger is off the trigger. PERIOD. Excessively long triggers are not any safer really; they are only a bit more idiot proof.] The fact that you are seeking out training tell me you are not a mall ninja and probably have decent trigger finger discipline but you should film youself and see if you do.

If I was to ever meet those 4 guys who were going to inflict felonious violence I would absolutely feel comfortable with the PPS.

I am sure the Kahr fanboys will disagree but hey you are on Kahrtalk.

One final consideration for concealing is the right holster for you. Tell me what you have tried and I can make a suggestion for concealing that glock 19.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I actually tried the PPS a few times and didn't feel as if it was for me. I personally didn't like the mag release... While it's a neat idea to put them there, muscle memory takes over and i didn't like it. There were a couple of other reasons I didn't particulalrly like the PPS as well as the trigger... It's obviously all very subjective... I don't think the PPS is a bad pistol at all, just didn't feel natural to me. I have a good friend that trains with me and he uses his PPS and he LOVES it.

I usually use a Don Hume IWB holster because I have to use an easy on/off holster Mon-Fri due to work. I put it on in the morning, off when I hit the office. On during lunch and other trips and when heading home. The belt I use is the 5.11 tactical belt.

If you have any easy on/off IWB holsters you can recommend, I'm all ears!

[intargc]

A while back Jocko and I had a conversation about kahr's and 1911's. We agreed that they are completely different guns and shooting expectations were also greatly different. His suggestion was to shoot my Kahr CW9 and concentrate on the fundimentals. I did and it worked. I know I can shoot the 1911 but I had to learn how to shoot the kahr. The same seems to apply here for the OP. You can shoot the G19, now concentrate on the kahr. Put enough rounds down range to learn the new trigger, how it feels and when it will break the shot. My Kahr is no where as accurate as my 1911 but I have come to terms with that and I no longer expect it to be. The Kahr is a defensive weapon and serves well in that catagory. Practice some more and give it and yourself a chance. Hopefully things will come together. If it just won't work for you, maybe you need to consider a change to something else. Good luck in the mean time.

Thanks! This brings more insight to it all.

Do you feel comfortable with your Kahr for defensive purposes? In a SHTF scenario, would you rather have your 1911 or would you be comfy with your Kahr as well?

[Kuzzy]

Too bad about the PPS. Try that ambi PPS mag release out weak hand and then tell me the right only button is the way to go. ;-)

Comptac MTAC or Minotaur Spartan, Crossbreed Supertuck, Raven Phantom seem like good options for comfort and concealment and reasonable on/off (tuckable belt clips) but the really easy on/off will be tough.

[jeep45238]

When I'm taking advanced classes, it's not a time for fundamentals. If I need to take a fundamental class, I will take one.


Word of advice - long trigger pulls are harder to shoot - such as revolvers and Kahrs. Kahrs have a 1/2" trigger pull and a 1/2" reset. Glocks have a 1/2" trigger pull and a 1/4" reset. Good fundamentals will ensure that you can shoot will with any/all of them - I can shoot a S&W 5906 in double action just as accurately as in single action - but I can fire it much faster while maintaining accuracy in single action.

It is the fault of you, but also your instructor - no instructor I know of that's worth beans will let you take their advanced course if you don't have the basics down pat.



Unfortunately, you seem to be putting the cart before the horse, and like many guys, get their panties in a bunch when they are told they're doing something wrong.

If you're going to have a closed mind like that, I certainly won't waste my time, and I doubt many others on here will either. If you'll take constructive advice, I'll happily help you out.

[intargc]

Word of advice - long trigger pulls are harder to shoot - such as revolvers and Kahrs. Kahrs have a 1/2" trigger pull and a 1/2" reset. Glocks have a 1/2" trigger pull and a 1/4" reset. Good fundamentals will ensure that you can shoot will with any/all of them - I can shoot a S&W 5906 in double action just as accurately as in single action - but I can fire it much faster while maintaining accuracy in single action.

It is the fault of you, but also your instructor - no instructor I know of that's worth beans will let you take their advanced course if you don't have the basics down pat.



Unfortunately, you seem to be putting the cart before the horse, and like many guys, get their panties in a bunch when they are told they're doing something wrong.

If you're going to have a closed mind like that, I certainly won't waste my time, and I doubt many others on here will either. If you'll take constructive advice, I'll happily help you out.

I'm unsure as to where I have gotten upset when someone is helping me out unless the comments are becoming personal attacks or the person has not read what I have said already, which is what you seem to be doing. So let me clear this up again....

For the 5th time here... My instructor has watched me shoot just fine with the Glock and that is all I have used in his courses up until now. He tries to get is to shoot fist sized groups at 3, 5, and 7 yards while we are moving. I can do this with any other pistol that I have shot but the Kahr.

However, again for the 5th time I AM NOT BLAMING the Kahr. I simply have to get used to the trigger. You're right, it's different but that is no fault of my instructors as he watches me shoot fine with the pistol I use regularly. He has seen me shoot the Kahr and thinks I need work on it but instead of stopping the class, I picked my Glock back up and continued the class without a hitch... Fist sized groups all day long.

Please read the original post. I did not ask for comments on whether you think my instructor in good or not. Nor did I ask if anyone thinks Glocks suck... I simply asked some people that shoot both how they manage the differences and some tips on getting used to both triggers...

I get that I need to practice. I don't know how many times I have stated that... I get it's me and not the gun. I've stated that multiple times. Tips on what to do when practicing are helpful. Talking bad about me or my gun choice or my instructor isn't beneficial to the topic. Besides, everyone on the Internet thinks they're some great instructor and know it all but has very little substance when they talk. All they can do is comment on how that person or this person sucks... They never give advice. Keyboard warriors aren't worth listening to.
Thanks.

[jeep45238]

Nowhere did I state XYZ gun is a bad choice - they can all kill me just as dead as the next.

YouTube - Trigger Pull (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKdXmcdB5WE)

Assuming that you have no issues with elevation, working with that video and doing wall drills will get rid of the windage errors.

I've found over time that it's much easier for people to build the muscle memory for a pull like this if they do NOT rack the slide after each shot - doing it without engaging the striker will allow the motion to get ingrained into your system, and after that happens then start looking into doing it and dropping the striker.

[jlottmc]

You asked if a previous poster would feel ok with their Kahr when the SHTF, that is in my opinion why we train and carry in the first place. A pistol is going to be a trade off anyway you cut it, as for Kahr vs 1911, as some one who has been there and done that I'll tell you this, I have never found myself wishing for a smaller gun or less ammo when it does happen. A pistol should give you time to get to your rifle and get in into action. I was not bashing Glocks in previous posts, I do realize that they have their place, just not in my hand. I have never found Glocks to fit my hand well, doesn't mean I can't shoot one, just that it's not my preferred pistol. I realize that it fits others better, realize that the Glock is not for everyone as well. As for the difference in triggers, that is less important than the basics. I will be the first to admit I need to bust some of this rust off of my skills. Start slow and become smooth, then work on your speed. Remember the adage Smooth is fast. This should also not be construed as a personal attack, just my thoughts and what I would do.

[jfrey]

Intargc, I carry my CW everyday. Would I RATHER have my 1911 when the SHTF - yes. Would I use my CW if the need arises - yes, that is why I carry it. I shoot my CW, 1911, and Glock interchangeably. It's like driving a car, pickup, and school bus. I can drive them all but I have to remember which one I am in as they all drive differently. Just keep practicing and you will get the hang of it.

[MattTheKnife]

I really like Kuzzy's previous suggestion. If you're married to the Glock 19 (and why wouldn't you be - it's a great gun), then the Walther PPS is worth looking into in place of the Kahr.

But if funds are limited, or the PPS isn't available to you (like it isn't to me here in California), then go out and practice a lot. I find I shoot my CW9 better than my 19 anout half of the time.

[MattTheKnife]

correction to above: that's "about half of the time," not "anount"

I'm still getting used to this ergomonic keyboard.

[intargc]

Nowhere did I state XYZ gun is a bad choice - they can all kill me just as dead as the next.

YouTube - Trigger Pull (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKdXmcdB5WE)

Assuming that you have no issues with elevation, working with that video and doing wall drills will get rid of the windage errors.

I've found over time that it's much easier for people to build the muscle memory for a pull like this if they do NOT rack the slide after each shot - doing it without engaging the striker will allow the motion to get ingrained into your system, and after that happens then start looking into doing it and dropping the striker.

You're right, you didn't comment on my choice of pistol and I didn't mean to point that entire rant just at you... Two other people did trash Glock. I guess I was lumping that entire rant on everyone that is getting off topic and trashing either me, my pistol choice or my instructor.

In regards specifically to your comments, I know I need to work on the fundamentals. I will never feel as if I don't need to work on those even if I was a top class shooter. But you have to think... if you are an instructor and someone that you train regularly and has been shooting as you have instructed in many of your classes and you are fine with how he's shooting up until he brings a new pistol to one of your advanced classes and he starts using it and isn't doing so well with it, are you going to stop the whole class and tell him he can't train anymore because the new pistol he's using isn't working as well as his regularly used pistol? What if he figures out he isn't shooting well with it and puts it aside and picks up his regularly used pistol and starts shooting fine again? Do you still tell him he can't train in that class 'cause he wasn't shooting well with the new pistol he put aside and isn't using anymore? It wouldn't make sense to do so in my eyes...

Anyway, thank you for the link to the video. Watching it now.

[intargc]

You asked if a previous poster would feel ok with their Kahr when the SHTF, that is in my opinion why we train and carry in the first place. A pistol is going to be a trade off anyway you cut it, as for Kahr vs 1911, as some one who has been there and done that I'll tell you this, I have never found myself wishing for a smaller gun or less ammo when it does happen. A pistol should give you time to get to your rifle and get in into action. I was not bashing Glocks in previous posts, I do realize that they have their place, just not in my hand. I have never found Glocks to fit my hand well, doesn't mean I can't shoot one, just that it's not my preferred pistol. I realize that it fits others better, realize that the Glock is not for everyone as well. As for the difference in triggers, that is less important than the basics. I will be the first to admit I need to bust some of this rust off of my skills. Start slow and become smooth, then work on your speed. Remember the adage Smooth is fast. This should also not be construed as a personal attack, just my thoughts and what I would do.

I appreciate it and I'm sorry if I misunderstood your comment earlier.

[intargc]

Intargc, I carry my CW everyday. Would I RATHER have my 1911 when the SHTF - yes. Would I use my CW if the need arises - yes, that is why I carry it. I shoot my CW, 1911, and Glock interchangeably. It's like driving a car, pickup, and school bus. I can drive them all but I have to remember which one I am in as they all drive differently. Just keep practicing and you will get the hang of it.

These may be silly questions, but does it feel as if it takes you a bit to get used to each pistol if you've been using another one for a period of time? Or can you use, say, your Kahr for a few weeks in practice and then pick up your 1911 or Glock and switch your muscle memory on the first shot?

[intargc]

Too bad about the PPS. Try that ambi PPS mag release out weak hand and then tell me the right only button is the way to go. ;-)

Comptac MTAC or Minotaur Spartan, Crossbreed Supertuck, Raven Phantom seem like good options for comfort and concealment and reasonable on/off (tuckable belt clips) but the really easy on/off will be tough.

We have trained with weak hand shooting as well and while it is definitely more difficult to hit the mag release, it's doable.

The other thing about the PPS that seemed to get me was that the take down lever protruded enough to knick up my thumb after so many rounds. My thumb was just long enough so that it hit the side of my joint upon recoil. After about 50-100 rds, it would start to hurt.

My main gripe though was the mag release... It was just completely different compared to what I'm used to and I couldn't go between it and my Glock without having to rethink how to release the magazine... I felt that in a high stress situation, I may mess that up a lot.

[deadhead1971]

I picked up and held a G26 this past weekend. It was not as bulky as I remembered. I did not buy it. I have shot the subcompact .45 glock (G30 or 36?). The slide on the .45 glock was so much easier to rack than the Kahr.

I have had the PM9 1 month short of a year. I love it, and it works great for me (pocket carry in stuffer holster). I don't wear shirts untucked, and I hate suits so pocket carry is my preference.

[jeep45238]

are you going to stop the whole class and tell him he can't train anymore because the new pistol he's using isn't working as well as his regularly used pistol?


No, I don't - we pull them off the line and work one on one with them while the rest of the class gets the advanced course under their belt, and when that individual has their gun figured out, they join into the thick of things. I remind them not to fire as rapidly as they are used to, they'll simply pull their shots off target - as they improve, speed up.

It's more common than you'd think.

[intargc]

No, I don't - we pull them off the line and work one on one with them while the rest of the class gets the advanced course under their belt, and when that individual has their gun figured out, they join into the thick of things. I remind them not to fire as rapidly as they are used to, they'll simply pull their shots off target - as they improve, speed up.

It's more common than you'd think.

Well, I'm going to attempt to do this weekends course with nothing but my Kahr. 1,200 rounds will be shot. I will see what happens... This will be a personal class with just me, my wife and the instructor... so we'll see if he focuses in on my shooting or not... If he doesn't, I'll concede that I need to find a new instructor. :)

I'm going to leave the Glock at home so I can't feel as if I can go back to it as a crutch. Hopefully 1,200 rounds down the pipe and some personal instruction will allow something to click and I will feel more comfortable with this pistol.

[intargc]

I picked up and held a G26 this past weekend. It was not as bulky as I remembered. I did not buy it. I have shot the subcompact .45 glock (G30 or 36?). The slide on the .45 glock was so much easier to rack than the Kahr.

I have had the PM9 1 month short of a year. I love it, and it works great for me (pocket carry in stuffer holster). I don't wear shirts untucked, and I hate suits so pocket carry is my preference.

I own and carry the G26 sometimes. To me, it is pretty bulky and the grip of it feels even more bulky than the G19 due to its backstrap angle. However, I shoot just as well with it as I do my G19. It conceals very well on me but it is much less comfortable than the P9. I barely recognize I have the P9 on until I sit down and after a minute of sitting down, I forget it's on again... I really like that.

I like the G26... I think I may like it even more if they do the Gen4 upgrades to it. But the Kahr is definitely nicer to carry due to its thinness and weight. Plus, carrying a single stack mag in my pocket is nice... Carrying a Glock mag in my pocket is very noticeable. Although, it is nice to have 11 rounds + 15 in my pocket...

[jfrey]

To answer your question about shooting interchangeability, I shoot my Govt. model 1911 the best, always, hands down. I had to learn to shoot it too, in the beginning. After that, I got the G36 and had to readjust to that trigger. Much grittier and harder than the 1911 but I managed to over come it. Now the Kahr is again different but I am getting used to it now and doing much better with 800 or so rounds through it at this point. Transitioning between the three has become much easier. I will always shoot the 1911 better because of the design but that doesn't mean I can't shoot other action types effectively if need be.

[intargc]

This is sort of off topic, but related to my last questions... And I hope I can ask it without inciting a pistol or caliber war as that is not my intention. My intention is simply understanding and learning...

Why, in a SHTF situation, would one feel that the 1911 (or maybe even a Glock) would be better than the Kahr? Take the 1911 for instance, 7+1 .45 ACP. The Kahr has a steel framed 7+1 .45 ACP model as well... Would the 1911 or other pistol be better in the SHTF situation since you feel more comfortable with it or are there more technical reasons for the favorability in that situation?

[jeep45238]

This is sort of off topic, but related to my last questions... And I hope I can ask it without inciting a pistol or caliber war as that is not my intention. My intention is simply understanding and learning...

Why, in a SHTF situation, would one feel that the 1911 (or maybe even a Glock) would be better than the Kahr? Take the 1911 for instance, 7+1 .45 ACP. The Kahr has a steel framed 7+1 .45 ACP model as well... Would the 1911 or other pistol be better in the SHTF situation since you feel more comfortable with it or are there more technical reasons for the favorability in that situation?


Speed and accuracy. That's what it boils down to me, and is actually why I sold off my Kahr - I couldn't see buying a gun for CCW (which is fighting for my life) and then grabbing another pistol if **** hits the fan.

For years the 1911 has been hands down the quickest to fire, most accurate, and reliable pistol I have ever owned.

I recently started shooting the S&W M&P pistols, and in the first 8 shots on the M&P I was putting out split times that were .013 slower than my 1911 that I've put over 15K rounds through. I'm a huge believer of commonality of arms (and manual of arms), and the 5" M&P and the 3.5" M&P run the same and recoil about the same.

I'm now much faster with my 5" M&P (yes, it's a 9mm) - and I'm faster with a .45M&P than the 1911 as well. My hands are a smidge too small for the .45 M&P, but the 9mm and .40 models fit perfectly - Glocks, well....good guns, but not for me at all.

I carry on my side the pistol I would reach for if SHTF - because if I have to pull a gun, it's already well past that point.



For those that don't share that viewpoint, the Kahr pistols are one of the hardest to beat semi auto pure self defense guns, that are accurate well beyond 75 feet.





You can read more about my thoughts on my gun selection here if you want (aka - why I hung up the 5" 1911 for my daily carry)
http://kahrtalk.com/general-discussion/1533-well-got-me-polymer-framed-pistol.html#post15426

[Bawanna]

This is sort of off topic, but related to my last questions... And I hope I can ask it without inciting a pistol or caliber war as that is not my intention. My intention is simply understanding and learning...

Why, in a SHTF situation, would one feel that the 1911 (or maybe even a Glock) would be better than the Kahr? Take the 1911 for instance, 7+1 .45 ACP. The Kahr has a steel framed 7+1 .45 ACP model as well... Would the 1911 or other pistol be better in the SHTF situation since you feel more comfortable with it or are there more technical reasons for the favorability in that situation?

To me it's just a matter of what you shoot best with. Given the option in your example you said you shoot your Glock very well. In a SHTF situation that would be your best option. If you Glock is in the glove box and the Kahr is in your waist band, the Kahr just became the #1 best choice. I would much prefer my Glock or my Para over my Kahr given the option. Or better yet my Garand or M14 over either. The big bonus or plus to the Kahr is due do it's dimunitive size it may always be there when the others may be at home in the night stand or in the glove box. Just like a pistol may be there when a rifle isn't appropriate the Kahr may be the first line of defense to get back to the bigger not necessarily better stuff.
I'm not sure what magnitude of a SHTF situation your thinking about and the worst thing about these things is you don't know when they will happen. If in this hypothetical discussion we know that in 10 minutes bad things are coming your way, I'm grabbing my Para and lots of magazines. I hope I'm expressing my opinion along the same track of your thinking. I try to avoid caliber wars as much as possible. As long as it's 45 your good to go.

[jeep45238]

If in this hypothetical discussion we know that in 10 minutes bad things are coming your way, I'm grabbing my Para and lots of magazines.


Wanna buy another one?
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/For%20Sale/Guns/Para/DSCN0932.jpg

[Bawanna]

Wanna buy another one?
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/For%20Sale/Guns/Para/DSCN0932.jpg

Not really, I already have 3 but that looks like a nice setup. Is that the same one that you refinished not long ago. Were gonna sand blast it and coat with something I forgot what it was? Looks good. Another dozen or so mags and you'll be ready for the balloon to go up.
Sounds like your M&P is working out well. I've had one of those on my radar for a spell now also. My PM45 desire just might migrate over to a compact M&P 45. I change my mind like a darn little girl in the mall.................

[jfrey]

To try and answer your question, when the SHTF, I want the most advantage possible. This may sound contradictory, but my Kahr will do for most cases when you want to be able to hit center of mass, hopefully retreat and get away. If I want to hit the third button down on the BG's shirt, the 1911 is the only one to count on to do it reliably and every time.
The Kahr is light, easy to conceal and fairly accurate. The 1911 is heavy, harder to conceal and pin point accurate at normal distances. It's a trade off in a lot of ways depending on the situation. If you tell me you only get one shot, make it count, the 1911 instills a lot more confidence to get it done. The Kahr is a good gun but I may not always hit the button with it. That is the difference. I hope I answered the question at least a little.

[jeep45238]

Yeah, same gun. I wouldn't be taking that up in a balloon anyway - I've got over 2 dozen AR mags, and soon quite a few loaded enbloc clips.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/Minor%20Gunsmithing/My%20Para%20Ord/3%2025%202010%20wear/DSCN0829.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/For%20Sale/Guns/Para/DSCN0943.jpg



Be careful about those M&P's - they multiply worse than 1911's.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/Range%20Time/SW%20MP9C/DSCN0951.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/Range%20Time/SW%20MP9C/DSCN0952.jpg

[intargc]

Speed and accuracy. That's what it boils down to me, and is actually why I sold off my Kahr - I couldn't see buying a gun for CCW (which is fighting for my life) and then grabbing another pistol if **** hits the fan.

For years the 1911 has been hands down the quickest to fire, most accurate, and reliable pistol I have ever owned.

I recently started shooting the S&W M&P pistols, and in the first 8 shots on the M&P I was putting out split times that were .013 slower than my 1911 that I've put over 15K rounds through. I'm a huge believer of commonality of arms (and manual of arms), and the 5" M&P and the 3.5" M&P run the same and recoil about the same.

I'm now much faster with my 5" M&P (yes, it's a 9mm) - and I'm faster with a .45M&P than the 1911 as well. My hands are a smidge too small for the .45 M&P, but the 9mm and .40 models fit perfectly - Glocks, well....good guns, but not for me at all.

I carry on my side the pistol I would reach for if SHTF - because if I have to pull a gun, it's already well past that point.



For those that don't share that viewpoint, the Kahr pistols are one of the hardest to beat semi auto pure self defense guns, that are accurate well beyond 75 feet.





You can read more about my thoughts on my gun selection here if you want (aka - why I hung up the 5" 1911 for my daily carry)
http://kahrtalk.com/general-discussion/1533-well-got-me-polymer-framed-pistol.html#post15426

Wow, see, that's a very well put reply and how I mostly feel about the Kahr. That's why I'm sort of asking... I'm in a transition phase currently where I'm starting to feel as if I don't like the Glock so much and I am loving the M&P line. I do like Glock for the ease to find parts, the fact I live 10 minutes from the Smyrna facility and since it's what I have learned on... But the M&P has caught my eye. I don't feel as if I'd pick up a Kahr for a SHTF scenario either, but I am not sure if that was a misguided opinion since I am very new to Kahr.

I want to learn how to shoot the Kahr properly, but I keep thinking "Why would I trust this pistol for a CCW when my life may be on the line vs a SHTF moment?" So you pretty much stated how I have felt which is quite interesting...

[intargc]

Be careful about those M&P's - they multiply worse than 1911's.


This is what I'm talking about... I have a Glock 19 and Glock 26 currently and was thinking of selling those off and going M&P 9 and M&P 9c. The 9c seems a bit fatter than the Glock when looking at it in the shop though... On paper it seems to compare out to 1.18 for Glock, 1.2 for M&P. I'm wondering if M&P rounded up or that width is actually accurate.

How is carrying the 9c? Does the thickness cause any annoyance?

[jocko]

If I was gonna carry waist band carry the kahr would not be my first choice, for most of the reasons stated. They are super accurate, IMO they are just as durable as a glock, but they are IMO difficult to shoot accurately like maybe a glock or a 1911. Or lets say one can learn faster on a glock, or 1911 or M & P (which IMO is almost a single action semi anyways). You have to learn to shoot a kahr, many will not take the time to do that. Another reason why the revolver was replced so easily by the semi,::; ease of shooting played a big part of that. to shoot a revolver accurately double action is not an easy chore either and some want to **** it and fire it single action. So therefore they never learn either.

BUT all that beng said, for me anyhow, my pM9 is my defense gun, it will shoot 2" groups, I CAN'T but at 10 yards I will hit you every time, maybe all over but I will put them there. AND the primary reason for me is that I don't and won't dress to carry. I ride alot all season long on my harley for just the freedom of the wind and my PM9 just sits in my front pocket like a puppy looking out a car windown going down the road. It is content to be there, it causes me no problems in that area.

In my earlier days I used to carry my model 60 alot but had to kinda dress to carry it, for it just didn't do right in my pocket, and there fore many times when just going 15 miles or so, the gun stayed home. that we all know is a NO NO.

Waist band carry opens up a new world for many guns. but your gonna more than not dress to carry that way. Now I know some will come back and give their methods of waist band carry where it works for them. I am giving my reason why kahrs are #1 in my books for what they are desinged for.

[jocko]

This is what I'm talking about... I have a Glock 19 and Glock 26 currently and was thinking of selling those off and going M&P 9 and M&P 9c. The 9c seems a bit fatter than the Glock when looking at it in the shop though... On paper it seems to compare out to 1.18 for Glock, 1.2 for M&P. I'm wondering if M&P rounded up or that width is actually accurate.

How is carrying the 9c? Does the thickness cause any annoyance?

these guns are excellent shooters and if ur gonna waist band carry they should meet your reqirements. Alittle bit bigger here and alittle more heavier here, should not matter when waist band carrying..

[intargc]

If I was gonna carry waist band carry the kahr would not be my first choice, for most of the reasons stated. They are super accurate, IMO they are just as durable as a glock, but they are IMO difficult to shoot accurately like maybe a glock or a 1911. Or lets say one can learn faster on a glock, or 1911 or M & P (which IMO is almost a single action semi anyways). You have to learn to shoot a kahr, many will not take the time to do that. Another reason why the revolver was replced so easily by the semi,::; ease of shooting played a big part of that. to shoot a revolver accurately double action is not an easy chore either and some want to **** it and fire it single action. So therefore they never learn either.

BUT all that beng said, for me anyhow, my pM9 is my defense gun, it will shoot 2" groups, I CAN'T but at 10 yards I will hit you every time, maybe all over but I will put them there. AND the primary reason for me is that I don't and won't dress to carry. I ride alot all season long on my harley for just the freedom of the wind and my PM9 just sits in my front pocket like a puppy looking out a car windown going down the road. It is content to be there, it causes me no problems in that area.

In my earlier days I used to carry my model 60 alot but had to kinda dress to carry it, for it just didn't do right in my pocket, and there fore many times when just going 15 miles or so, the gun stayed home. that we all know is a NO NO.

Waist band carry opens up a new world for many guns. but your gonna more than not dress to carry that way. Now I know some will come back and give their methods of waist band carry where it works for them. I am giving my reason why kahrs are #1 in my books for what they are desinged for.

Well said. I get what you mean.

I fortunately dress pretty simple to begin with... I'm either wearing a t-shirt, a polo shirt or a dress shirt and it is *always* untucked. I can't stand tucking my shirts in. I also mostly wear jeans unless I'm going to a nice dinner. But my shirt is always untucked. :) So, while some may find this as dressing around the gun, I say it's my everyday attire! haha

I found the Glock 26 relatively easy and comfortable to carry, so I'd assume the M&P 9c wouldn't be much worse...

[GregD]

Coming from revolvers and 1911s, Glocks have always felt like the bastard stepchild to me. Kahrs have always felt "normal".

I agree totally. I purchased a S&W M&P 40 last year and this week swapped it for two S&W 4046's. I purchased a Glock when they first came out, only 9mm was available and the price was $279.00, swapped it for a Colt Commander, two months later.

I like the trigger pull on the Kahr and the 4046. I guess I'm old school or something LOL.

[jeep45238]

This is what I'm talking about... I have a Glock 19 and Glock 26 currently and was thinking of selling those off and going M&P 9 and M&P 9c. The 9c seems a bit fatter than the Glock when looking at it in the shop though... On paper it seems to compare out to 1.18 for Glock, 1.2 for M&P. I'm wondering if M&P rounded up or that width is actually accurate.

How is carrying the 9c? Does the thickness cause any annoyance?

The frame itself feels smaller to me - the slide just going off of memory seems to be about the same thickness as a Glock. The 9mm and .40 Glocks feel like 2x4's that I can run with ergonomics that do not work for me at all. The 9 and .40 M&P's - jackpot baby.

Really, how is 0.02 inches going to matter in concealment? It's not ;)

There's not a big difference in concealment with a good belt and holster between the compact and full size - and if you carry inside the waistband, I would suggest a 5" M&P instead of a 4-4.25" M&P of the same caliber.

I carry the compact at work - the long slide everywhere else, same holster.

Dress is an untucked shirt and jeans - vest if off of work with a OWB holster (faster draw - and I don't care what people think about my nonexistant fashion sense).

[intargc]

The frame itself feels smaller to me - the slide just going off of memory seems to be about the same thickness as a Glock. The 9mm and .40 Glocks feel like 2x4's that I can run with ergonomics that do not work for me at all. The 9 and .40 M&P's - jackpot baby.

Really, how is 0.02 inches going to matter in concealment? It's not ;)

There's not a big difference in concealment with a good belt and holster between the compact and full size - and if you carry inside the waistband, I would suggest a 5" M&P instead of a 4-4.25" M&P of the same caliber.

I carry the compact at work - the long slide everywhere else, same holster.

Dress is an untucked shirt and jeans - vest if off of work with a OWB holster (faster draw - and I don't care what people think about my nonexistant fashion sense).

It may be the holsters I have tried, but with my 4" G19, when I sit down, the muzzle hits the seat before my butt does. 3.5" doesn't seem to do this...

I unfortunately can't wear my gun at work and have to leave it in the car. So I use a Don Hume IWB holster that makes it easy on/easy off so I can put it on before, after and during lunch. I wear it at about 3:30-4:00 on the waist.

My belt is typically a 5.11 "Trainer" belt although sometimes I use a double thick leather gun belt if it's called for...

[jeep45238]

Don Humes are not well conceived for good concealment. Check out the MTAC holsters, they are easy on and easy off. The holster is also what is likely giving you issues with 4 inch barrels.

I'm almost 6 foot, average build, and have no issues with a 5" barrel. The belt you have is plenty enough.

[intargc]

Don Humes are not well conceived for good concealment. Check out the MTAC holsters, they are easy on and easy off. The holster is also what is likely giving you issues with 4 inch barrels.

I'm almost 6 foot, average build, and have no issues with a 5" barrel. The belt you have is plenty enough.

It's possibly the holster...

I'm only 5'9 and 165 lbs. 31" waist... I have noticed that I have more of a challenge in concealing than other guys I know. The only guys I know that have a waist size like mine don't carry at all, so it's hard to figure out if it's me or the holster...

[jeep45238]

I'm a 34" and 5' 11", close enough on the build.

General rule of thumb - if the holster attaches to the belt directly over the gun, it won't conceal worth beans unless the belt is cinched so tight it's uncomfortable. Attatchment points at the ends of the holster, far away from the gun - cake job.

YouTube - Concealment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIG4LjZgDzI)

[intargc]

I'm a 34" and 5' 11", close enough on the build.

General rule of thumb - if the holster attaches to the belt directly over the gun, it won't conceal worth beans unless the belt is cinched so tight it's uncomfortable. Attatchment points at the ends of the holster, far away from the gun - cake job.

YouTube - Concealment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIG4LjZgDzI)

Yeah, I watched just about all of your vids on youtube including that one. I appreciate the help.

I see the MTAC is quite easy to remove. My problem is that when I go to lunch with some people at work, I have to sneak my firearm on. I sometimes let them get out of the car and can sneak it on while I'm getting out and locking up. Sometimes when there is a straggler, I claim I left my wallet in the car and run back and holster up at that point...

I unfortunately work with some people that are very scared of firearms and regularly try to engage me in debates about them and make fun of me for taking training classes and blame me of being irrationally scared of being hurt because "They have lived their whole life and have never had someone threaten them with violence so why would you need to carry a gun if they don't?" I kid you not...

Considering I love my job and some of the people I work with are actually intelligent, I hide it as much as I can. Only 1 person at work knows that I carry around lunch time and he goes to training with me sometimes...

That's why I try to 1) find a small pistol so i can easily pick it up and make it seem like i'm grabbing my wallet and 2) need a holster I can slide on quickly.

It has been suggested once or twice that I just get an MTAC or Crossbreed Supertuck and just wear it all day long while leaving the pistol in the car and then I can just holster it quickly while getting out of the car... I wasn't sure how I felt about this as I thought it may be annoying to wear an empty holster all day long, but I have started reconsidering this lately...

[jfrey]

Listening to some of you guys, I guess I'm lucky and didn't know it. I'm 6'1" with a 41 waist. My CW9 vanishes under a 2X T-shirt. I only carry OWB in a Tagua Quick Draw Holster (tabs on the ends) and a heavy belt. I don't even know it's there. Maybe that's another way I can counter my doctor always telling me I need to loose some weight.

[Kuzzy]

You are right about lack of consistency re PPS and Glock. But I cut my teeth on HK so its not too bad. Im used to going between the two styles and love the weak hand only easy of getting the mag out.

[bugs]

I also went from Glocks,G21,G36, to a CM9, and had the same questions,using the CM as a sometimes pocket carry. then IDPA made the BUG Div. official and I stopped using my Glocks and the CM became my EDC/BUG competition gun.
my opinion is don't mix apples and oranges,stick with one gun especially when triggers are so different.

how did I get used to the Kahr trigger? reps,reps,reps! have you ever shot a service rifle? I compare that experience to the Kahr; take up slack,feel the wall,press a little further,BANG.

NRA LIFER
IDPA BELEIVER

[Bawanna]

I do find myself that I shoot a Kahr better when I don't stage the trigger but just follow through. I've heard others say the same so I'm not the only one.

Of course if staging works for you then by all means, that's the ticket. I've tried it and still do from time to time but seems the follow through works best for me.

My Para LDA's are just the opposite, staging is the answer but it's not an apple and apple comparison either.

[AIRret]

Just one smooth long pull works best for me.

Some folks don't have much trouble going from one style of firearm to another but they are the exception.
Masaad Ayoob shoots anything and during a class I was in someone asked how he does it. In my recollection he said when he switches carry guns he dry fires the
"gun of the day" a few time just to reconnect with guns feel and, he lets the trigger come out to full extension while still maintaining contact with it. Another words, he doesn't just go to trigger reset, he says doing that with all those different guns could lead to issues, i.e. not going far enough to re-cock the gun.

[Alfonse]

My suggestion is to set the Glock aside for several months. Only train with the Kahr. Try different grips and trigger positions on your trigger finger until you see what works best for you. You will get competent with the Kahr, although your groups will still be a bit worse than the Glock. And, don't worry. Even after 6 months of only training with the Kahr, I bet your groups with the Glock would only have improved when you do pick it up again.

[bugs]

one word will solve your problems; practice,practice,practice. sorry, three words!

NRA LIFER
IDPA BELEIVER

[CPTKILLER]

A Kahr is a good pistol. Put 200 rounds through it in one session and all will work out. A Dark like my MK9 fits situations where my H&K P30SK wouldn't for concealment. Regardless, have reloads and be prepared. Also use a reliable defense load that works in your Kahr or really any other weapon.