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Michael W.
05-03-2010, 07:07 PM
...or "Slinging Eggs Through a Hen"?:)

Well, just to set the tone of this post let me just get this out
of the way......the PM45 performed TOTALLY AWESOME!

I don't think I could be any more pleased with it.
I shot a total of 230 rds comprising of Fiocchi 230gr ball
and Federal HST 230gr (standard pressure).

I had a grand total of 1 FTF, and I'll come back to that in a bit
(it was semi-induced).

Once again my drive to the range was fraught with anxiety about
whether or not my PM45 was one of the "problematic" ones that
would need a trip back to "Barrytown" before it would run right.

When I got set up in my lane I started off with the PM9 and testing out my
two carry load candidates. Both the Winchester Ranger-T 124gr +P and
Federal 147gr HST fed and grouped without issues and was more accurate
than my abilities. Just for giggles I ran a mags worth of the HST's through my
Glock 26. It just served to remind me how much I still trully love my Glocks.
There's absolutely no doubt that I can shoot faster and more accurately
with the stock Glock trigger (for now:) But on the other hand, heh....after
shooting the PM9 it kind of felt like I was holding a beer can shooting the
Glock:) At any rate, I'm really liking the HST 147gr and I think I'll be migrating
to that load for both my PM9 and G26. My Glock 19 will stick with the
formidable Ranger-T 127gr +P+ that I've been carrying almost exclusively
for the past 5 years.

With that out of the way I broke out the 45, which was cleaned and lubed
and ready to go. Once again I was pleasantly surprised at how well behaved
it was in the hand. The recoil was certainly more evident than shooting a G30
but still more "push" than "snap" and the sight pictured dropped
right back into place for follow up shots. The trigger is most definitely lighter
and smoother than my PM9. And curiously it almost feels like its got a shorter
arc. I was trying to "stage" the trigger by pulling it up 3/4 of the way then
acquiring a sight picture before pressing off the round. This works better on
the PM9 than the 45. I kept overdoing the staging and popping off a round.
So I think I still have a ways to go to figure out whats the best way to shoot
these Kahrs. That said, the trigger was smooth as silk and just a great
example of what a double action trigger should be.

After the first hundred rounds I ran a bore snake through the chamber and
barrel a couple times before proceeding. By the time I got through the second
hundred rounds the gun was getting extremely dirty. I ran the bore snake
through it again but I could tell there was burnt on crud in the feed ramp. I
decided to see how it would be able to handle that without any further
cleaning. I was probably around round 220 or so when I noticed the slide
getting noticeably sluggish and finally I got an FTF with one of the large HST
hollowpoints hung up on the encrusted feedramp. So although it was an FTF it
was pretty much induced by running the gun as dirty as it was.
I took out a bottle of remoil and put a few drops on the forward slide rails
and squeezed a few drops right down onto the feedramp and barrel lug,
slapped the mag back in and finished the rest of the session without any
further failures. About the only 45 I've ever owned that could shoot through
totally crudded up like this was my Glock30. I wasn't really expecting that
from the PM45 since the tolerances are so much tighter and the whole
feed/fire cycle is crammed into such a tiny bit of space. But I was mighty
impressed that I got as far as I did. So I would categorize my first range
session as pretty close to "flawless" on the guns part.

One other issue I had that cropped a few times was more of a operational
one. I was doing drills with two loaded mags and doing a mag change in a
string of 10 shots. A few times I failed to slam the mag home hard enough and
it didn't click, but it also didn't drop free. When I either slingshotted the slide
or released the slide lock, the slide would run forward and fail to pickup a
round off the mag. I wouldn't know until I pulled the trigger and got a "click".
This happened about 3 or 4 times before I started to slam the mag home with
a little more authority.

As far as the recoil and controllability,as mentioned earlier, like the PM9 it was
surprisingly mild. I've shot aluminum framed 1911's that torqued more than this
little thing. The key is the ability to get a high grip angle. After 230 rounds
the only wear I have to show is my thumb web knuckle getting a little raw
from the beavertail portion of the grip rubbing it. Another 50 rd's or so and I'd
probably be getting a blister. The front strap checkering is indeed sharp but I
found that I liked having that extra bit of texture to help control the muzzle
flip. It really didn't bother my hand all that much.

So all in all, a fabulous first range session. I'm extremely pleased
with the gun. Pleased enough to invest in some dedicated leather for it
I think.

For those of you that have ignored all the above and just want to see
some pics....:)

Some comparisons for "context".....

http://www.fototime.com/FCFD7C3CA246DCC/orig.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/999E80F2A0B0C9C/orig.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/141066BEE33C192/orig.jpg

PM45-G26-PM9
http://www.fototime.com/8F1D7C45C6F8B0B/orig.jpg

This is the PM9 on top of the PM45....note how the trigger assembly and mid
frame area dimensions are almost identical in size. What OTHER 9mm and .45
can you say THAT about....simply amazing.
http://www.fototime.com/80D56DC8B11A8FD/orig.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/BE1546EACDFF2E4/orig.jpg

Here's the PM45 in my Glock Slide version of the M-Tac, it's actually
a good enough fit to be usable.
http://www.fototime.com/EEBFB5CC464DD18/orig.jpg

The PM45 in my G26 IWB from Overland Gunleather- St. Louis, MO (http://overlandgunleather.com).
A bit too loosey goosey in the leather to work but it looks good:)
I think I'll have Adam make me a dedicated IWB for this gun.

http://www.fototime.com/99589839B165FE7/orig.jpg

Michael-

wyntrout
05-03-2010, 07:37 PM
Very good, Michael. I hope when I get mine back this time, it will be trouble-free. I thought it was, but then more problems cropped up.
Oh, I want to add, again, that the bike inner tube grip cover makes a big difference on those cheese graters. I even appreciated the one I put on my P380 because it takes some of the sting out of the Buffalo Bore. That stuff is ferocious with recoil... it bites. I could feel several areas that could get sore quickly shooting more than a mag or two of that stuff.

I can carry my K9 and my PM45 in my PM9 Minituck, saving me some bucks there. That ~.1" width isn't much in a holster. I have a separate one for the P380 and I wish that I had sprung for the horsehide on it as well, since it may wind up my main Summer carry... which is close to year around... wearing shorts and tees or polos most of the year. I don't always want to wear belted shorts -- needed with the heavier guns... along with my "under-shirt" supspenders, so my pants don't keep sliding south.
Wynn:D

Bawanna
05-03-2010, 08:05 PM
YES!!! .

I'm sooooooo happy to hear this outstanding report. The comparison pics like Wyns certainly help to put a perspective on these tiny things also. My level is leaning once again towards the buy button, even sight unseen. I don't see any negatives in this scenario other than I'm half way to a Dan Wesson Cbob but this will fill a needed void, at least that's the story I'm telling my missus just for self preservation.

Man I'm sooooo happy for you. Wyn I sure hope yours comes back with a 100% clean bill of health when it returns, you've more than done your time and deserve way better than this

jlottmc
05-03-2010, 08:11 PM
Wynn, do you have an easy way to get those on? I had one that I worked and worked on, then when I went to clean, I tore it up. I kinda liked it (my ole lady does though).

wyntrout
05-03-2010, 08:25 PM
Are you talking about the suspenders? I did a report on those in holsters and gear... Dickies Perry Suspenders. They hook under your belt and support the belt, not your pants. Pix included:
http://kahrtalk.com/holsters-gear/1828-dickies-perry-suspenders-ccw.html
Wynn:D

Bawanna
05-03-2010, 08:29 PM
Are you talking about the suspenders? I did a report on those in holsters and gear... Dickies Perry Suspenders. They hook under your belt and support the belt, not your pants. Pix included:
http://kahrtalk.com/holsters-gear/1828-dickies-perry-suspenders-ccw.html
Wynn:D

The way I read it I think he's talking about the innertube, or the Wyntube as we now affectionately refer to it.

jlottmc
05-03-2010, 08:34 PM
Go with what Bawanna said. I SO don't want to think about the suspenders, or you in them, and well you make the other combinations. I never cottoned to suspenders, besides then I'd need an undershirt, and in the heat that is approaching...not just no but HELL NO to the suspenders. I'll live with a tighter belt/pumber's butt, but thanks for playing.

cgo99
05-03-2010, 08:58 PM
That is an awesome report Michael, I'm glad that everything worked out for you and that you enjoyed your first time with the new PM45.
The gun porn is an added bonus, I certainly enjoyed it.
Like I said before I'm was not in the market for an PM45 but after reading about your little adventure an range trip I'm curios to try one, maybe my local dealer has one that I can hold in my hands.
I can only imagine the effect that this range report is going to have on the folks that are dieing to get one in their hands (not going to mention any names, you know who you are).

wyntrout
05-03-2010, 09:02 PM
Hey, to prevent plumber's butt, try Duluth for shirts and tees... extra length in back and no shrinkage. I bought a bunch of Van Heusen polo shirts that looked great until I dried them and then they got shorter and WIDER! WTF....

I used a 1.75 bike tire and made grip covers for all of my Tupperware Kahrs. If you start with the largest, mistakes might fit the smaller ones. It really makes a big difference with the cheese-graters and even the P380 benefits from the tube grip cover when firing stout stuff like the Buffalo Bore.
You can eyeball the first one and then increase or decrease the measurements as needed for the next attempt. Don't forget there's talcum powder inside the tube. Watch where you cut the tube and wash it with soap and use the inside out for a better look. You want to cover ALL of those sharp nibs. It's cheap and it works without altering the guns good looks. What's not to like?
If you have to buy a new tube, get the 1.75", otherwise the diameter might not fit all.
I was skeptical until I got the PM45 and felt those sharp nibs! No way I wanted those things bare when firing... talk about no fun! I sure didn't invent the idea, but the PM45 made me a believer and the BB made me glad the P380 had one as well.
Wynn:D
Wynn

kahrseye
05-03-2010, 09:03 PM
Excellent report. Not only content but written very well. Thoroughly enjoyed the pics. I had a similar outing my first time out.

wyntrout
05-03-2010, 09:14 PM
jlottmc, it's not that hard, even with the PM45. I just stretch it to start it on the gun then I stretch the bottom of the cover to start it on the bottom. Then with pulling and sliding I worked it on. I then stretched it out to see if it covered everything... the nibs, and not the back of the mag catch.
A biggie is making smooth cuts when you're trimming. Any irregularities make weaknesses that will tear. if you have a whole tube you can experiment and trim large mistakes to make covers for the smaller guns. The trickiest parts are the fronts and backs of the grips where less than straight lines are needed. Try to make smooth cuts with no jags that will easily tear.
Wynn:D

Michael W.
05-03-2010, 11:41 PM
Very good, Michael. I hope when I get mine back this time, it will be trouble-free. I thought it was, but then more problems cropped up.
Oh, I want to add, again, that the bike inner tube grip cover makes a big difference on those cheese graters. I even appreciated the one I put on my P380 because it takes some of the sting out of the Buffalo Bore. That stuff is ferocious with recoil... it bites. I could feel several areas that could get sore quickly shooting more than a mag or two of that stuff.

I can carry my K9 and my PM45 in my PM9 Minituck, saving me some bucks there. That ~.1" width isn't much in a holster. I have a separate one for the P380 and I wish that I had sprung for the horsehide on it as well, since it may wind up my main Summer carry... which is close to year around... wearing shorts and tees or polos most of the year. I don't always want to wear belted shorts -- needed with the heavier guns... along with my "under-shirt" supspenders, so my pants don't keep sliding south.
Wynn:D

Wynn,

Sorry to hear about your continued troubles with your gun. Hope you'll get it
back working like we know they CAN work. The cheese graters don't bother
me all that much in fact I think I like them...:eek:
I'll probably order up just an M-Tac shell for the PM9 and share that with the
PM45 for the time being. Although I really think I'll be pocket carrying the Pm9
most of the time. Basically it is replacing my LCP. I only live a couple hours
south of you and summer is rolling in with a vengeance, so I hear you.
Basically I have 3 modes of dress that I need to cover. The "slob" mode which
is cargo shorts and t shirt or polo shirt. In this mode I can actually carry
anything I want and get away with it under an untucked t-shirt. I normally
carry a Glock 26 or 19 (PM45 will be making it into the rotation soon). Then
there's my Business-Casual work mode. I just recently started working with a
guy doing consulting and professional services for IT/SW implementations. So
when I have to leave my home office and do site or client visits it's basically
khaki's and polo or Oxford button down. I've been limited to carry the LCP
while in this mode which is getting an upgrade to the 9mm PM9.

Then there's church mode, which is jacket and tie or suit. I'm a deacon in our
church and I usually have a lot of service duties on a given Sunday morning.
I have not been real comfortable carrying IWB under my blazer or suit coat
because it needs to come off so often. So, again, I've been carrying the LCP.
But I feel a little over-extended relying the .380 so much. This will also get
the PM9 upgrade.

M-

Michael W.
05-03-2010, 11:45 PM
YES!!! .

I'm sooooooo happy to hear this outstanding report. The comparison pics like Wyns certainly help to put a perspective on these tiny things also. My level is leaning once again towards the buy button, even sight unseen. I don't see any negatives in this scenario other than I'm half way to a Dan Wesson Cbob but this will fill a needed void, at least that's the story I'm telling my missus just for self preservation.

Man I'm sooooo happy for you. Wyn I sure hope yours comes back with a 100% clean bill of health when it returns, you've more than done your time and deserve way better than this

Well, if you were hoping for a bad report to undermine your confidence and get you off the hook for a PM45 sorry to disappoint you:) The Dan Wesson CBOB is a NICE gun too....but that's a sizable investment for a gun that in then end probably won't be as reliable as a good old Glock 30 or 36. But
if your looking at the 36...this brings you full circle back to the Pm45 (like my reasoning here?:)

Michael-

wyntrout
05-04-2010, 01:55 AM
C'mon Bawanna, stop being wishy-washy and get a dang PM45... it's the new PM9. Everybody has to have one. If yours needs a trip or three back to the mothership, you have something to fill the space. I've gotten kind of used to the rotation now. If'n I don't alter the P380 too much, it's conceivable it could be going back, too. I'll try to keep it to one at a time, though. I actually thought about sending them both back in the same package, but I may be close to finishing the tuning or tweaking, if I don't run out of magazine catch to work with my DLT. I only had two FTFeed with the 100 S&B and I think, one with the 6 BB last range trip.
Wynn:D

Michael, it got over 92° here today. I think it's going to be one of those hot years with lots of 100's, which sucks big time. These darn heat pumps will only cool about 20° below ambient temperature. I don't like it above 72° inside, and it's miserable at 82°+.

jlottmc
05-04-2010, 07:22 AM
Back to the tubing of the grips... I did that, even cut it on the frame with out a scratch with my pocket knife. I left the talcom powder inside even and after I got it manhandled enough to cover the nibs, I kinda liked it, as I said my wife really did. I could live with out it, but since she may carry that one too at some point, I may as well put it back on. You never did really answer the part about an easy(easier) way to put the tubes on. I do have the 1.75", but it fits the larger sizes too. And here in TX we hit 90+ this week, summer's gonna be rough.

GOOFA
05-04-2010, 04:45 PM
Michael W...
A wonderful report and photographs. You surely helped many members with your excellent post.

jocko
05-04-2010, 06:12 PM
C'mon Bawanna, stop being wishy-washy and get a dang PM45... it's the new PM9. Everybody has to have one. If yours needs a trip or three back to the mothership, you have something to fill the space. I've gotten kind of used to the rotation now. If'n I don't alter the P380 too much, it's conceivable it could be going back, too. I'll try to keep it to one at a time, though. I actually thought about sending them both back in the same package, but I may be close to finishing the tuning or tweaking, if I don't run out of magazine catch to work with my DLT. I only had two FTFeed with the 100 S&B and I think, one with the 6 BB last range trip.
Wynn:D

Michael, it got over 92° here today. I think it's going to be one of those hot years with lots of 100's, which sucks big time. These darn heat pumps will only cool about 20° below ambient temperature. I don't like it above 72° inside, and it's miserable at 82°+.

Bawanna is waiting on u to get pissed at your PM45 and then just send it to him for pennies on the dollar. He is like that wyn, u know that. we call them vultures around here:target:

Kinda what our politicians are doing also. "legalized theft".

Bawanna
05-04-2010, 06:27 PM
Bawanna is waiting on u to get pissed at your PM45 and then just send it to him for pennies on the dollar. He is like that wyn, u know that. we call them vultures around here:target:

Kinda what our politicians are doing also. "legalized theft".

No sir that's not my style. I'm usually the one that gets one of them threaded tapered fasteners in the backside on most deals. Vultures are the folks you haven't seen for 30 years and arrive on your doorstep the day after you cross the river wanting to pickup their entitlement. I hate vultures more than just about anything. Was gonna say your pres but the secret service would probably come pick me up.
I'm nearly ready to push the button on a Bud's PM45. My "NEW" FFl is ready, they still have one and I'm only about 19 bucks shy of having enough in the toy chest to make my move but Im not gonna talk about it no mo cause you guys are tired of listening to me power whine. I only responded cause you called me a vulture and I freakin hate vultures and your pres and Kel tecs.:mad:

Michael W.
05-04-2010, 06:51 PM
Vultures, socialists and Kenyans aside.....just wanted
to report that my PM45 has the "Notch" and the "Bevel"...

wow....coupla days ago I had no clue what those were....and here I am
getting both words into a single sentence in context and cogently!:)

http://www.fototime.com/2869F7D3B788F90/orig.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/E6405C7D307F43B/orig.jpg

M-

Bawanna
05-04-2010, 06:59 PM
OK, I'm declaring myself officially insane now which probably disqualifies me from firearm ownership. The notch and the bevel from the factory? Maybe they got all their chickens baskets in the sack or something. I think it's my time now. I'm gonna knock over a convenience store on the way home and get the final 19 bucks and then order one up. I didn't say the make or model cause I know your tired of listening to insane powerwhiners babbling like kenyans with a large dog standing on their foot. Gotta go empty my drool cup and entertain strangers with erotic gaseous emmissions minus the combustion technique. Not into that piro stuff.

ok bye.

jlottmc
05-05-2010, 07:26 AM
We know what you want, and we weren't bagging on you, just trying to get you happy sooner. We all like instant get-i-fication, and were just trying to get you started sooner rather than later. Besides you know and we know and you know we know that you really want one.:)

Bawanna
05-05-2010, 10:20 AM
I was all set to order last night, decided that rather than knock over a convenience store it would be better to use the general credit card rather than my secured debit card that has money less the 19 bucks of course. Figured I'd just pay the cc bill with my debit account when the bill comes and by then I'll have the 19 bucks. All would be swell and the world would be a better place.
Like the little spineless oscar meyer weiner that I am I ran my idea past my lovely young bride. She gave me that yeah sure do whatever you want but I'll gouge your eyes out in your sleep, soak the interior of your van with kerosene and light a cigar for ya before you leave for work in the morning resonses. You know the phrase. Anyone in marital bliss has heard it. I usually only hear it when purchasing guns which is about the only thing I really want to purchase so I hear it frequently.
I'm feelin a little more dare devil this morning and might take the risk. I shall ponder a few moments longer, exercise my patience issues and perhaps measure some more garbage can lids for Jocko to use for targets.

snuffy
05-05-2010, 10:54 AM
I'm feelin a little more dare devil this morning and might take the risk.

Ya need too:

jlottmc
05-05-2010, 11:12 AM
Eh the ole lady will always whine about something, that's their nature. Think back to Genesis when God told Adam and Eve that she would bruise man's head from then on...Scary how that really fits huh?

Bawanna
05-05-2010, 11:30 AM
Ya need too:


I did! The deed is done. 3 minutes ago. Information is flowing thru cyberspace at the speed of molasses as we speak. Money, FFL #'s, now the wait begins.

jlottmc
05-05-2010, 11:42 AM
Good for you!!!! Take the whoopin and smile. You'll have fun with your new toy.

Michael W.
05-05-2010, 02:43 PM
I did! The deed is done. 3 minutes ago. Information is flowing thru cyberspace at the speed of molasses as we speak. Money, FFL #'s, now the wait begins.

Woooohoooo!

Congrats! Did you order at Bud's? Your a better man than me.....I had to have it in my hot little hands RIGHT NOW...:)

M-

Bawanna
05-05-2010, 02:51 PM
Woooohoooo!

Congrats! Did you order at Bud's? Your a better man than me.....I had to have it in my hot little hands RIGHT NOW...:)

M-

I did, I could not find one anywhere local for any price. Couldn't even find one to hold, never even seen one in person. I'm insane.
Bud's has already sent me an email telling me it's ready to go, just waiting for my FFL to fax his information. He wasn't on the list. I emailed and followed up with a fax to get him to go. Be nice if it went out today, not sure what time it is in Kentucky but gotta be runnin short of day back there. That's why I hate having multiple people involved in stuff, seems one always drops the ball. My old FFL would answer within minutes till I desperately needed something and then he'd drop off the face of the earth. Waiting has to be the absolute worst period of time for a gun buyer. I've done my part I want it NOW! Maybe I'll have one of the girls call him........................

cgo99
05-05-2010, 03:00 PM
I did! The deed is done. 3 minutes ago. Information is flowing thru cyberspace at the speed of molasses as we speak. Money, FFL #'s, now the wait begins.
Finally, good for you. I can only imagine how happy you are going to be when you get it.
I think Michael is to blame here for pushing you over the edge (not that you needed much pushing).
In any case I will be very interested to read your opinions and range report on the gun.

Bawanna
05-05-2010, 03:11 PM
Finally, good for you. I can only imagine how happy you are going to be when you get it.
I think Michael is to blame here for pushing you over the edge (not that you needed much pushing).
In any case I will be very interested to read your opinions and range report on the gun.

Well several folks here were instigators Michael was a big one and a co conspirator for sure. Wynn pushed and prodded, several others pushed I think just so they wouldn't have to listen to me powerwhining about my wants and desires. You are correct, it didn't take much pushing.
Would really have liked to hold one first but with my patience or lack there of I sometimes just gotta take the plunge. Everyone here who has one seems to have nothing but love for them, even the ones that have had to go back a time or two. I'm really really hoping I don't have no return trips, that would not be good, not good at all but we threw the saddle on this critter we'll ride him however we got to till she bonds and we get along with each other. If I have to become close friends with Ian and the Kahr mothership then that's what we'll do with Wynn's big SHG on our face to boot.
Been 3 hours now, wonder if it's here yet?

getsome
05-05-2010, 03:33 PM
Go Bawanna Go Bawanna Go Bawanna Bawanna Bawanna U DA MAN...:cheer2:

Bawanna
05-05-2010, 04:05 PM
Go Bawanna Go Bawanna Go Bawanna Bawanna Bawanna U DA MAN...:cheer2:

Thank you so much, I'd like to thank all the people large and small for your guidance and support during my recent gotta have a new Kahr illness.
I just received word from my FFL that his license and such has be faxed so all the eggs should be in the basket. It's possible but perhaps unlikely that it will arrive Friday. I don't want to seem anxious or anything though. I shall try to think of other important things to occupy my infinitely small mind. Crap, there are no other important things. Could be a rough weekend.

jocko
05-05-2010, 04:18 PM
I accept your thanks and double that congrats to. You will love it, even though it might hav eto go back 3 or 4 times!!!!

Bawanna
05-05-2010, 04:25 PM
I accept your thanks and double that congrats to. You will love it, even though it might hav eto go back 3 or 4 times!!!!

Dang it, a curse from jocko. This can't be good. My positive ora has been violated and depression is starting to show. Why, why, why you hate me so bad. I polish the driveway, pressure wash the hog and this is the thanks I get. I think I'm gonna put some of them girly man tassles on your handle bars! Wooah is me.

My plan is to be a plank owner, one of the first of many that receive 100% trouble free PM's, no return trips, no failures, no hot brass to the forehead. Michael done good, Kahrseye done good, IT COULD HAPPEN? ya think? My fingers have been crossed since 9 this morning, they are starting to cramp but I'm not uncrossing em, no way no how. It's gonna be GOOD, your gonna be sooooo jealous when I hit the 29,500 round mark. Just wait and see.

wyntrout
05-05-2010, 05:52 PM
Oh, you said rounds... I thought maybe you were talking about the miles your PM45 was going to travel to the mothership and back.:D LOL!
Hopefully, all you'll need are a few "cosmetic" fixes like the "Notch" and the Gap, or bevel... just finish up the manufacturing process. They leave a few things for you to find and fix so you can bond with your new "toy." You'll have fun. Just wear eye protection and a cap when you shoot, 'cause every once in a while, Tiny will throw you a "kiss" or a "love tap"... right to the forehead!:D
Wynn:D

Bawanna
05-05-2010, 05:58 PM
Oh, you said rounds... I thought maybe you were talking about the miles your PM45 was going to travel to the mothership and back.:D LOL!
Hopefully, all you'll need are a few "cosmetic" fixes like the "Notch" and the Gap, or bevel... just finish up the manufacturing process. They leave a few things for you to find and fix so you can bond with your new "toy." You'll have fun.
Wynn:D

Michaels came with all those cosmetic features from the factory! I will be most unhappy if I have to complete the manufacturing process. Most unhappy. I actually thought of having Buds send it directly to Ian for his first hand inspection but thought that might be overly paranoid. I should be whipped for even thinking that. Except for jocko's curse I got a slight feeling of positive karma. I think we're gonna be ok, have to remain optomistic, must remain optomistic, oooom hari krishna, oooom hari krishna........

wyntrout
05-05-2010, 06:06 PM
I added this to the previous post:
They leave a few things for you to find and fix so you can bond with your new "toy." You'll have fun. Just wear eye protection and a cap when you shoot, 'cause every once in a while, Tiny will throw you a "kiss" or a "love tap"... right to the forehead!

Wynn:D

Bawanna
05-05-2010, 06:38 PM
I added this to the previous post:
They leave a few things for you to find and fix so you can bond with your new "toy." You'll have fun. Just wear eye protection and a cap when you shoot, 'cause every once in a while, Tiny will throw you a "kiss" or a "love tap"... right to the forehead!

Wynn:D

You wait till now to remind me of all these small print details. I think I still have the prototype to the maxi pad bandanna, perhaps it will get off the drawing board yet. I hoping NOT though. I know I'm not carving my own notch nor am I beveling my own stripper. It does feel kind of nice to use the words my own though. I'm liking that alot already.
Really looking forward to talk like - yeah I was out blasting stuff with Tiny, 1/2" groups at 75 yards weak hand sitting down cause I'm old and we do this stuff. Only 1 malfunction at round 937, ejected right into my forehead, not a bad thing, I was starting to nod off, fortunately fell into my beer bottle that was near empty anyhow so I didn't have to bend over and pick up the brass so my new girlfriend Miss March 2010 can reload it for me nekkid while I'm eating Dietriches sweet molasses bread. You can spank me and call me names but you can't take my dreams away. God Bless America.

wyntrout
05-05-2010, 07:42 PM
Dang! I'd like to have some of the "medications" you're on. It must be interesting being you. You can take trips without leaving home!:D
My Kahr cap works pretty well to keep those "love taps" from being too distracting. I just take the cap off after shooting and I can go to Wally World and shop without walking around with all of those little black marks, or "kisses" on my noggin.
Well, I need to clean up the kitchen and get ready to run the DVR for Wifey.
I'll warm up the last cup of coffee in the airpot, but it won't keep me awake enough.
Domestic duty calls.
Wynn:D

jlottmc
05-05-2010, 08:52 PM
I'd settle for dreams like that.

getsome
05-06-2010, 09:13 AM
Lucy in the sky with diamonds....Oh Yea.....Bwanna I just heard from Hercules, the God of gunpowder and he says that all is well with your new toy and he has given it his personal blessing so that you can show the unbelievers and make them eat their blasphemous words!!!! Now now go stir the mushroom tea before it boils dry....:D

Bawanna
05-06-2010, 10:17 AM
Lucy in the sky with diamonds....Oh Yea.....Bwanna I just heard from Hercules, the God of gunpowder and he says that all is well with your new toy and he has given it his personal blessing so that you can show the unbelievers and make them eat their blasphemous words!!!! Now now go stir the mushroom tea before it boils dry....:D

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. A little personal blessing from Hercules is making me feel way more confident. I'll go stir the tea.

GOOFA
05-07-2010, 02:26 AM
I'd settle for dreams like that.

You gotta remember, "dreams like that" can get you "slides like this".


http://www.fototime.com/2869F7D3B788F90/orig.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/E6405C7D307F43B/orig.jpg

M-

Please forgive me, as you can see it's getting late, and I forgot my meds today.:crazy:

snuffy
05-07-2010, 11:34 AM
You gotta remember, "dreams like that" can get you "slides like this".
Did you do that notch and bevel or are is it factory ?

Michael W.
05-07-2010, 11:42 AM
Did you do that notch and bevel or are is it factory ?

That came from the factory that way.

And that's Tetra Gun grease. Good stuff for slide rails.
I use it on all my guns along with FP-10 oil.

Michael-

Bawanna
05-07-2010, 11:44 AM
Did you do that notch and bevel or are is it factory ?

Back on page two Michael indicated that they were there from the factory. A wonderful thing. Apparently a few got out without either and either had to go back or in some cases applied by owners.
Sure did a nice range report, very nicely done. I'm hoping I can just cut and paste for my report in the next week or so. I gotta get me one of them funny colored glocks so the pictures won't be a bald faced lie. Or I guess I could just use his words and attempt my own pictures maybe.

snuffy
05-07-2010, 11:57 AM
Somehow I missed seeing it on page 2 - oops.:blushing:
Wish I'd seen those pics before adding the bevel on my PM45.
That looks like about a 45 degree bevel and I put about 60 degrees on mine, but it works OK.

Bawanna
05-07-2010, 12:33 PM
Somehow I missed seeing it on page 2 - oops.:blushing:
Wish I'd seen those pics before adding the bevel on my PM45.
That looks like about a 45 degree bevel and I put about 60 degrees on mine, but it works OK.

Long as it works its all good. Should'nt hurt a thing. I'm glad Michael clarified that Tetra grease I kept going back and looking to see what that blob was on the front, thought it was a lousey machining job but went and looked again after the grease post and it's perfectly clear. Very much relieved indeed.
Did yours also lack the notch as well or just the bevel? I gotta uncross my fingers soon or it will probably not help my shooting ability when mine gets here next week. Please don't let it be a lemon.......:der:

O'Dell
05-07-2010, 03:27 PM
Well several folks here were instigators Michael was a big one and a co conspirator for sure. Wynn pushed and prodded, several others pushed I think just so they wouldn't have to listen to me powerwhining about my wants and desires. You are correct, it didn't take much pushing.
Would really have liked to hold one first but with my patience or lack there of I sometimes just gotta take the plunge. Everyone here who has one seems to have nothing but love for them, even the ones that have had to go back a time or two. I'm really really hoping I don't have no return trips, that would not be good, not good at all but we threw the saddle on this critter we'll ride him however we got to till she bonds and we get along with each other. If I have to become close friends with Ian and the Kahr mothership then that's what we'll do with Wynn's big SHG on our face to boot.
Been 3 hours now, wonder if it's here yet?

Congratulations, finally!! You're gonna love it - not too sure about your wife. Mine has been in my pocket pretty much all the time since it got back from Kahnland. Sunday morning I dropped it in my pants pocket on the way to the Diner for coffee before church. Later, I was leaving church before I realized that I hadn't locked it in the trunk. [I drive a Boxster with the top down all year] It's that comfortable!

Bawanna
05-07-2010, 03:40 PM
Congratulations, finally!! You're gonna love it - not too sure about your wife. Mine has been in my pocket pretty much all the time since it got back from Kahnland. Sunday morning I dropped it in my pants pocket on the way to the Diner for coffee before church. Later, I was leaving church before I realized that I hadn't locked it in the trunk. [I drive a Boxster with the top down all year] It's that comfortable!

Wow, thanks. That sounds all good except that trip back to Kahrland. I'm hoping to avoid that part. The marbles for this one came from the sale of another gun so while wifey's not thrilled (she figures I should sacrifice to the general fund which is what happens to every single other dime I make) she's at least still talking and acknowledging my presence. At least I think she's talking, I see her lips moving and her veins aren't sticking out of her forehead and all red faced so she appears darn happy. (I think).
I of course am an expert on them:lie: but maybe for the benefit of the rest of the folks here you could explain what a Boxster with the top down all year is? Just for todays shared learning experience for those that ain't as smart as me and you of course. I'm anxious for my delivery and your explanation just for the other of course.

snuffy
05-07-2010, 09:10 PM
Long as it works its all good. Should'nt hurt a thing.
Did yours also lack the notch as well or just the bevel?

It lacked both the notch and the bevel.

wyntrout
05-07-2010, 09:22 PM
I can just see the first pictures Bawanna' posts after he gets his new toy and fondles it all night... "Tetra" grease... Ha!
Wynn:D

O'Dell
05-08-2010, 01:09 PM
Wow, thanks. That sounds all good except that trip back to Kahrland. I'm hoping to avoid that part. The marbles for this one came from the sale of another gun so while wifey's not thrilled (she figures I should sacrifice to the general fund which is what happens to every single other dime I make) she's at least still talking and acknowledging my presence. At least I think she's talking, I see her lips moving and her veins aren't sticking out of her forehead and all red faced so she appears darn happy. (I think).
I of course am an expert on them:lie: but maybe for the benefit of the rest of the folks here you could explain what a Boxster with the top down all year is? Just for todays shared learning experience for those that ain't as smart as me and you of course. I'm anxious for my delivery and your explanation just for the other of course.

The trip back was just to fix the gap and notch problems, which they did. The pistol was fully functional before, it just had to be hand racked. If yours is new, it probably won't be an issue.

Glad to hear that the wife is communicating, sort of. I solved that problem twenty years ago through the court system, but of course that created other problems.

The Porsche Boxster is a small open spots car. Since I live in Georgia, I don't have to worry much about cold or inclement weather, [I guess we have clement weather] so the top's only been up once for one week since I bought it two years ago. I might add that this is my weekend car and I have a garage - during the week I drive a Prius.

Bawanna
05-08-2010, 01:33 PM
The trip back was just to fix the gap and notch problems, which they did. The pistol was fully functional before, it just had to be hand racked. If yours is new, it probably won't be an issue.

Glad to hear that the wife is communicating, sort of. I solved that problem twenty years ago through the court system, but of course that created other problems.

The Porsche Boxster is a small open spots car. Since I live in Georgia, I don't have to worry much about cold or inclement weather, [I guess we have clement weather] so the top's only been up once for one week since I bought it two years ago. I might add that this is my weekend car and I have a garage - during the week I drive a Prius.

Thanks for the Boxster information I'm sure the unenlightend are feeling much more educated now. Gotta be something driving opposite ends of the vehicle spectrum. Porsche to Prius. My wife a few years ago decided she had to have a convertible. Insisted on a Chrysler Sebring much used, sort of the Porsche for poor folks like me. I didn't adhere to my death before dodge creedo and got it. Total POS from day one. A few months ago we got her a "F" word convertible, a mustang. Much nicer and so far very little grief. Around here the top is up way more than it's down. I did con the local speedy lube into a free oil change and lube. Asked if I could get a free one if my wife came in topless. They bought it! Guess I did actually get something for free once.

I'm hoping for a good PM45 with all the machining done first trip and now returns to the mother ship. Apparently some slipped thru but I'm hoping your right in that new production they have all their chickens in the sack and all is ok. I hope so anyhow. We shall see. Doesn't show shipped yet so best case scenario is tuesday, more likely wednesday or thursday. I'll be in the nut house by friday for sure.

GOOFA
05-08-2010, 01:39 PM
I can just see the first pictures Bawanna' posts after he gets his new toy and fondles it all night... "Tetra" grease... Ha!
Wynn:D
Wynn...
His slides may end up like this...
http://www.fototime.com/2869F7D3B788F90/orig.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/E6405C7D307F43B/orig.jpg

:eek::eek::eek: Inquiring minds want to know "does that stuff really work"?

O'Dell
05-08-2010, 04:31 PM
Thanks for the Boxster information I'm sure the unenlightend are feeling much more educated now. Gotta be something driving opposite ends of the vehicle spectrum. Porsche to Prius. My wife a few years ago decided she had to have a convertible. Insisted on a Chrysler Sebring much used, sort of the Porsche for poor folks like me. I didn't adhere to my death before dodge creedo and got it. Total POS from day one. A few months ago we got her a "F" word convertible, a mustang. Much nicer and so far very little grief. Around here the top is up way more than it's down. I did con the local speedy lube into a free oil change and lube. Asked if I could get a free one if my wife came in topless. They bought it! Guess I did actually get something for free once.

I'm hoping for a good PM45 with all the machining done first trip and now returns to the mother ship. Apparently some slipped thru but I'm hoping your right in that new production they have all their chickens in the sack and all is ok. I hope so anyhow. We shall see. Doesn't show shipped yet so best case scenario is tuesday, more likely wednesday or thursday. I'll be in the nut house by friday for sure.

Well, the performance is opposite if you consider quarter mile times, but they both have their arena. I've had two prii, an 04 and 07, and the Prius does rather well in its own area of performance. My current tank is indicating 62.7 MPG, and I regularly get 64 - 65 MPG in the warm weather. In January and February, it drops to an atrocious 58 MPG, because the batteries are less efficient, the engine has to fire up to keep the converter lit off, and winter gas has less energy.

If they ever visit this forum, I'm sure they will hand pick your PM45, and you will get the best one Kahr ever produced. They wouldn't dare send you a pistol that was deficient in any way.

kramm
05-08-2010, 05:45 PM
First, congratulations to Michael on your PM45. You gave a great report on a great gun.:) Second, congratulations to Bawanna on his purchase. ;) You may as well start polishing up your 45 ammo and get ready to go to the range, it will be with you soon. By the way which one of the little fellers did you choose?:001_huh:

Bawanna
05-08-2010, 05:52 PM
Well, the performance is opposite if you consider quarter mile times, but they both have their arena. I've had two prii, an 04 and 07, and the Prius does rather well in its own area of performance. My current tank is indicating 62.7 MPG, and I regularly get 64 - 65 MPG in the warm weather. In January and February, it drops to an atrocious 58 MPG, because the batteries are less efficient, the engine has to fire up to keep the converter lit off, and winter gas has less energy.

If they ever visit this forum, I'm sure they will hand pick your PM45, and you will get the best one Kahr ever produced. They wouldn't dare send you a pistol that was deficient in any way.

Wow, I had no idea them things got that kind of mileage. I can see where that would be right handy when the gas cards maxed out and you still gotta go someplace. I suspect we'll see more and more of those type cars in the future even though I firmly believe the whole energy thing is a big money making conspiracy. I think they ought to put that Prius drive train in a Porsche boxer body, (although I still gotta look up a picture to see what one looks like) so we can get good mileage and still look cool. Looking cool is high priority with me. About all I got left is looking cool.
Would be way cool to get a special hand picked walked thru the system PM45 wouldn't it. My advice to Kahr is do that to each one like it was going to Justin Moon hisself. Be alot of very happy Kahr owners and good reports sell stuff, I don't care who you are.

jocko
05-08-2010, 07:28 PM
Wow, I had no idea them things got that kind of mileage. I can see where that would be right handy when the gas cards maxed out and you still gotta go someplace. I suspect we'll see more and more of those type cars in the future even though I firmly believe the whole energy thing is a big money making conspiracy. I think they ought to put that Prius drive train in a Porsche boxer body, (although I still gotta look up a picture to see what one looks like) so we can get good mileage and still look cool. Looking cool is high priority with me. About all I got left is looking cool.
Would be way cool to get a special hand picked walked thru the system PM45 wouldn't it. My advice to Kahr is do that to each one like it was going to Justin Moon hisself. Be alot of very happy Kahr owners and good reports sell stuff, I don't care who you are.

Porsche cayman S get 28 mpg, does that count any. I can sure get their faster than the prius can to. Thats like comparing IMO a kel tec to a kahr...

hsart
05-08-2010, 07:55 PM
Wow, I had no idea them things got that kind of mileage. I can see where that would be right handy when the gas cards maxed out and you still gotta go someplace. I suspect we'll see more and more of those type cars in the future even though I firmly believe the whole energy thing is a big money making conspiracy. I think they ought to put that Prius drive train in a Porsche boxer body, (although I still gotta look up a picture to see what one looks like) so we can get good mileage and still look cool. Looking cool is high priority with me. About all I got left is looking cool.
Would be way cool to get a special hand picked walked thru the system PM45 wouldn't it. My advice to Kahr is do that to each one like it was going to Justin Moon hisself. Be alot of very happy Kahr owners and good reports sell stuff, I don't care who you are.
A great idea since the PM45 has been slightly problematic for some. I actually think that it is a great engineering feat - such a large caliber gun in a micro carry size. Sure to have some problems - so Kahr should up their quality control on these so that they are the guinea pigs and not us. In the end it would save them money (think of all the service/shipping charges). Now that the PM45 has been out a while I would bet that the new ones are just fine, so I would not buy an early production one unless it has over 500 flawless rounds through it. I'm happy with mine.

Bawanna
05-08-2010, 08:36 PM
First, congratulations to Michael on your PM45. You gave a great report on a great gun.:) Second, congratulations to Bawanna on his purchase. ;) You may as well start polishing up your 45 ammo and get ready to go to the range, it will be with you soon. By the way which one of the little fellers did you choose?:001_huh:

I crossed my fingers and went with the PM45. I'm counting on it to fill the really small category. Got most of the other sizes covered. I suspect it will replace my K40 hanging on my leg. Should be much lighter, a tad smaller even and just a joy to behold. (I HOPE).

O'Dell
05-09-2010, 12:29 AM
Wow, I had no idea them things got that kind of mileage. I can see where that would be right handy when the gas cards maxed out and you still gotta go someplace. I suspect we'll see more and more of those type cars in the future even though I firmly believe the whole energy thing is a big money making conspiracy. I think they ought to put that Prius drive train in a Porsche boxer body, (although I still gotta look up a picture to see what one looks like) so we can get good mileage and still look cool. Looking cool is high priority with me. About all I got left is looking cool.
Would be way cool to get a special hand picked walked thru the system PM45 wouldn't it. My advice to Kahr is do that to each one like it was going to Justin Moon hisself. Be alot of very happy Kahr owners and good reports sell stuff, I don't care who you are.

Not all of them do, but I have almost 100,000 miles in the Prius, and I know how to drive them. I also have a few thousand miles on road courses, so I'm not bad with the Porsche either. My first car was a Convertible as was my first new car. About half of the 60 or 70 I've owned were also.

Now a Kahr rant - I apologize in advance. I'll start by saying that I'm not popular at the Taurus forum, because I got a bad one and it took Taurus six weeks not to fix it. I had to sell it back to the store at a loss and buy a M&P45. I guess that I let it be known that I was unhappy. Anyway, one of the Taurus zealots proceeded to tell me about the about the SIG, S&W, Glock, etc [he mentioned 6 or 7] that failed for him right out of the box. I told him that since he was having so much trouble with guns, maybe he should take up knitting. He didn't take it well, and I almost got kicked off. The only thing that saved me were the positive things I had said about my 24/7 Pro c 45. I really do like it.

Today, the same guy started in again on another thread with the same garbage, about how no one test fired the guns before they left the factory. [except Taurus I suppose] This time he mentioned Kahr. [ I had defended my SIGs, S&W's and Kahrs in my post] Well, I know S&W and SIG do, and I'm pretty sure Kahr does too, so I again told him that maybe it was HIM. This time the moderator stepped in and told me to knock it off. He said that he had heard many angry Kahr owners trash their guns and that they were junk.

Now I'm steamed. I posted to the moderator, that in the last 45 years, I had owned dozens of guns from many manufacturers, and only 2 had failed out of the box, and one was the Taurus in question. Anyone that claimed that many failures was either a total klutz or was full of it, period. I said that I regularly visit 3 Kahr forums and that I had never seen anger against the pistols nor had I ever heard the term "junk". Of course there are problems, like on all gun forums, but they are usually quickly resolved by other posters or by Kahr itself. Am I wrong?

Now I'm afraid to go back there.

Bawanna
05-09-2010, 01:35 AM
Not all of them do, but I have almost 100,000 miles in the Prius, and I know how to drive them. I also have a few thousand miles on road courses, so I'm not bad with the Porsche either. My first car was a Convertible as was my first new car. About half of the 60 or 70 I've owned were also.

Now a Kahr rant - I apologize in advance. I'll start by saying that I'm not popular at the Taurus forum, because I got a bad one and it took Taurus six weeks not to fix it. I had to sell it back to the store at a loss and buy a M&P45. I guess that I let it be known that I was unhappy. Anyway, one of the Taurus zealots proceeded to tell me about the about the SIG, S&W, Glock, etc [he mentioned 6 or 7] that failed for him right out of the box. I told him that since he was having so much trouble with guns, maybe he should take up knitting. He didn't take it well, and I almost got kicked off. The only thing that saved me were the positive things I had said about my 24/7 Pro c 45. I really do like it.

Today, the same guy started in again on another thread with the same garbage, about how no one test fired the guns before they left the factory. [except Taurus I suppose] This time he mentioned Kahr. [ I had defended my SIGs, S&W's and Kahrs in my post] Well, I know S&W and SIG do, and I'm pretty sure Kahr does too, so I again told him that maybe it was HIM. This time the moderator stepped in and told me to knock it off. He said that he had heard many angry Kahr owners trash their guns and that they were junk.

Now I'm steamed. I posted to the moderator, that in the last 45 years, I had owned dozens of guns from many manufacturers, and only 2 had failed out of the box, and one was the Taurus in question. Anyone that claimed that many failures was either a total klutz or was full of it, period. I said that I regularly visit 3 Kahr forums and that I had never seen anger against the pistols nor had I ever heard the term "junk". Of course there are problems, like on all gun forums, but they are usually quickly resolved by other posters or by Kahr itself. Am I wrong?

Now I'm afraid to go back there.

I'm not an expert on this forum stuff, this is the only one I've ever been on. Didn't even know there were other Kahr forums. I do know that no matter what brand of gun or anything else you can think of someone is going to have a strong negative opinion about them. We get a few with bad attitudes through here from time to time, usually not even negative about Kahrs but against anything that happens to come up. I think some want to be negative or pick on somebody just for their idea of fun. Several of the folks around here myself included, have actually left for awhile, sick of bad attitudes, bad information, rude people. Some are all serious and go sideways if a thread slips off the track. Usually one can tell those and I try to just give an answer if I have one or avoid it since I don't do serious to good. The good thing is that if we tough it out for awhile the pains usually don't hang around too long. They just sort of drop off the map, everyone breaths a big sigh of relief and life goes on. I obviously like here ALOT. I post too much but mostly try to just keep things moving. I leave all the creative thinking to Deitrich, or Wynn, just try to stay easy and smooth. I think the moderators here do a pretty fair job of letting people know when they are crossing lines so it stays pretty nice. I'd not be afraid to go back were I you, walk softly. I've been run off before, don't figure to be run off again.

jlottmc
05-09-2010, 01:19 PM
What I want in a vehicle is a Volks Wagon TDI diesel in a Chevy Colorado size package. I usually don't do the forum thing, except here of course and I think I still spend WAY too much time here. I haven't found the Taurus one and haven't really looked. Bawanna, how does one in your position get run anywhere?

Bawanna
05-09-2010, 01:24 PM
What I want in a vehicle is a Volks Wagon TDI diesel in a Chevy Colorado size package. I usually don't do the forum thing, except here of course and I think I still spend WAY too much time here. I haven't found the Taurus one and haven't really looked. Bawanna, how does one in your position get run anywhere?

Picture a derelict in a wheelchair at the top of a flight of stairs with someone unhappy with ya and dropping your guard for just a second. Wheelchair, derelict in a heap at the bottom, it's just ugly, don't even like to think about it.

Bawanna
05-09-2010, 01:25 PM
Picture a derelict in a wheelchair at the top of a flight of stairs with someone unhappy with ya and dropping your guard for just a second. Wheelchair, derelict in a heap at the bottom, it's just ugly, don't even like to think about it.

Plus it's probably hardly noticeable here but I'm kind of sensitive and don't like guys or gals being unhappy, even if it's not my fault. Guess I can't handle pain and unhappiness in others well. Would rather take it myself and not share when possible.

jlottmc
05-09-2010, 01:44 PM
Eh you do ok. Besides what was that line in the Matrix? We define our existence by our suffering, or something close enough to that.

kramm
05-10-2010, 09:03 AM
On O'dell's comments about the Taurus, I bought one took it to the range a couple of times. It was used when I bought it, or should I say used-up. I took it back and traded it for a G36. Maybe I should be grateful to Taurus because if it had worked right I may have not gotten the Glock. Much much better hand gun. I use the glock as a benchmark, the pm45 I have is right there with it, I can even use it as a benchmark now that it's fully broken in.

Michael W.
05-10-2010, 10:02 PM
Bwanna, what's the word on the "package" from Buds?

I just noticed my order status from Larry's has changed to "shipped"
with a tracking number. Woohoo! Unfortunately, I've got two client visits on
Wednesday when it's supposed to arrive...so maybe Thursday I can pick it up.

Meanwhile the big brown truck of bliss dropped off some 45 ACP Blazers
today. I may need to go and do round II of the PM45 break-in tomorrow!

Michael-

wyntrout
05-10-2010, 10:48 PM
I think he's under his bed crying since he found out "In Stock" has different meanings for different dealers... as in waiting for it to come from their "warehouse".
Poor guy... If he had made up his mind sooner he could have had it by now... maybe. Or it could be on its way back to the dealer for another short wait, but he could have fondled it, at least.
Wynn:D

Michael W.
05-10-2010, 11:04 PM
I think he's under his bed crying since he found out "In Stock" has different meanings for different dealers... as in waiting for it to come from their "warehouse".
Poor guy... If he had made up his mind sooner he could have had it by now... maybe. Or it could be on its way back to the dealer for another short wait, but he could have fondled it, at least.
Wynn:D

I heard that! When I saw the CW40 on sale at Larry's Pistol and Pawn at the almost unbelievable price I was assuming it would be a Davidson's drop ship deal.
I actually waffled a bit (about 20 minutes) contemplating whether I could get away with one more round of "Honey, I bought another gun..."
(So I haven't told her yet:)

But as soon as I clicked "Buy" the gun disappeared from inventory, so it looks like it was gun that was physically in their store and it was the last one.
I'm surprised someone didn't snap it up at that price......well, I supposed someone did:)

Michael-

Michael W.
05-10-2010, 11:25 PM
Now a Kahr rant - I apologize in advance. I'll start by saying that I'm not popular at the Taurus forum...(snipped)...Now I'm afraid to go back there.

I wouldn't sweat it. Way too many people get sucked into identifying their
worth and their place in the big scheme of things by the brand they own and
get truly offended when anyone challenges their affinities. On the other hand,
if you DO happen to like brand XYZ you're always in danger of being relegated
to the status of "fanboy" and your opinions discounted. Happens in every gun
forum, knife forum, fishing forum, you-name-it forum that I've ever been
involved in since the text based Compuserve BBS days. It's just a dynamic of
human nature I guess. When I find myself getting steamed to the point of
getting into a virtual pissing contest with someone, it's a good sign that I'm
getting sucked in too far and it's time to back off and go do something else
just to re-boot my perspective.


As for Taurus, I have a lot of respect for them and some of their designs are
quite unique and innovative. The biggest weakness I see across the board on
Taurus really is materials. I'm talking about the heat treating of frames and
slides to the tensile strength of slide stop springs for instance. I think this is
the source of a lot of the percentage of "problem" guns. I've owned a couple
of Taurus over the years and probably will again, but they will probably
never make it into the rotation of my SD/HD/Carry system. That's something
thats always been reserved for my Glocks and now perhaps my Kahrs.

And my confidence in my carry guns is not based on what someone else
experienced or thinks but rather what I have proven to myself the gun will do.
I wouldn't even trust any of my Glocks if I hadn't put the lead downrange
to "prove" it.

Michael-

Bawanna
05-11-2010, 12:21 AM
I did get 3 very fast email responses from Bud's today. It was in stock but apparently in another warehouse. He assured me it would come in and go out the same day, expected tomorrow or perhaps even today. I apologized to him for my impatience and he was totally ok with me. In fact he told me imagine working here and trying to keep a paycheck. Sort of put it all in perspective.
I've bought4 or 5 guns now prior to this one and they have never let me down so even though it's taking a bit longer than I'd hoped I thnk we're gonna be ok. Please don't let it be a lemon. They did make another major move this last weekend (timing is everything) one reason I delayed even ordering, I didn't want to get stuck in the system.

wyntrout
05-11-2010, 02:59 AM
Good! In no time at all you'll be waiting for FedEx to pick it up for its first return to the mothership.:D
I used my soil torture device today -- no problems or injuries... just doesn't back up worth a damn. I put down 20 40-lb bags of cheap topsoil, which isn't very much when you spread it around. I also spread close to the back door 4 40-lb bags of Scott's SeedSoil and then two bags of carpet grass seed with mulch(not much) and two small bags of Scott's Starter fertilizer with the aerator/spreader. I raked it about a bit and then used the soil torture device to aerate the heck out of the back yard to cover and bury some of the seeds. With watering a bit daily, maybe I'll have more grass to go with my remaining weeds. Then I can start warring with the weeds again and kill off too much grass.
I'm not a fan of yardwork, but if you don't water and fertilize the grass so you can cut it, the weeds will grow anyhow and things really get out of hand... which sucks if you're lazy.
Wynn:D

cgo99
05-11-2010, 06:41 AM
.

Today, the same guy started in again on another thread with the same garbage, about how no one test fired the guns before they left the factory. [except Taurus I suppose] This time he mentioned Kahr. [ I had defended my SIGs, S&W's and Kahrs in my post] Well, I know S&W and SIG do, and I'm pretty sure Kahr does too, so I again told him that maybe it was HIM. This time the moderator stepped in and told me to knock it off. He said that he had heard many angry Kahr owners trash their guns and that they were junk.

Now I'm steamed. I posted to the moderator, that in the last 45 years, I had owned dozens of guns from many manufacturers, and only 2 had failed out of the box, and one was the Taurus in question. Anyone that claimed that many failures was either a total klutz or was full of it, period. I said that I regularly visit 3 Kahr forums and that I had never seen anger against the pistols nor had I ever heard the term "junk". Of course there are problems, like on all gun forums, but they are usually quickly resolved by other posters or by Kahr itself. Am I wrong?

Now I'm afraid to go back there.
Don't get steamed by people like that is not worth it. This forums are great in many aspects but also because of the anonymity everybody wants to appear as an expert and defend their choices. The trick is to identify the real experts and weed out the posers.
That been said I belong to a couple of other forums and I hardly go to those anymore, this forum is kind of different from the others; It seems to be populated with nicer folks and there is an overall desire to help you with your Kahr.
And to answer your question, no you are not wrong. I've seen some problems appear with the guns but like you said those problems get resolved by other members or Kahr itself.

O'Dell
05-11-2010, 03:47 PM
I wouldn't sweat it. Way too many people get sucked into identifying their
worth and their place in the big scheme of things by the brand they own and
get truly offended when anyone challenges their affinities. On the other hand,
if you DO happen to like brand XYZ you're always in danger of being relegated
to the status of "fanboy" and your opinions discounted. Happens in every gun
forum, knife forum, fishing forum, you-name-it forum that I've ever been
involved in since the text based Compuserve BBS days. It's just a dynamic of
human nature I guess. When I find myself getting steamed to the point of
getting into a virtual pissing contest with someone, it's a good sign that I'm
getting sucked in too far and it's time to back off and go do something else
just to re-boot my perspective.


As for Taurus, I have a lot of respect for them and some of their designs are
quite unique and innovative. The biggest weakness I see across the board on
Taurus really is materials. I'm talking about the heat treating of frames and
slides to the tensile strength of slide stop springs for instance. I think this is
the source of a lot of the percentage of "problem" guns. I've owned a couple
of Taurus over the years and probably will again, but they will probably
never make it into the rotation of my SD/HD/Carry system. That's something
thats always been reserved for my Glocks and now perhaps my Kahrs.

And my confidence in my carry guns is not based on what someone else
experienced or thinks but rather what I have proven to myself the gun will do.
I wouldn't even trust any of my Glocks if I hadn't put the lead downrange
to "prove" it.

Michael-

I thought I was the only one who remembered the early days of the BBS's on Compuserve. Dial-up modems, 2 or 3 K downloads, ..... Wow, what fun, but a great bunch of guys.

The ironic part of the Taurus thing is that I bought a 24/7 Pro c 45 6 or 8 months ago, and that pistol has been perfect. I don't know why the PT745 wouldn't feed or why Taurus couldn't fix it. I hear that they are having a lot of mag problems, and that could easily be it. The upside is that after I sold the gun back to the dealer, I bought a M&P c 45, and it has turned out to be an awesome pistol. I shot it for the first time yesterday - 150 rounds of bulk ball and 50 rounds of GD's and GS's with not the hint of a problem. 200 rounds in less than 45 minutes meant that I was not going for accuracy, but the gun didn't know that. For the last 4 mags, I moved the target from 30 to 45 ft, and shot out the 10 ring, with a few in the 9 - a 2 inch group with no flyers, and right on POA. There was a GBI Lt next to me practicing double taps, and he what are you shooting over there. I told him and he said good gun - great groups. I haven't shot that well in 20 years.

BTW, I still haven't been back to the Taurus forum. I just hope my 24/7 keeps running well.

Bawanna
05-11-2010, 04:03 PM
I thought I was the only one who remembered the early days of the BBS's on Compuserve. Dial-up modems, 2 or 3 K downloads, ..... Wow, what fun, but a great bunch of guys.

The ironic part of the Taurus thing is that I bought a 24/7 Pro c 45 6 or 8 months ago, and that pistol has been perfect. I don't know why the PT745 wouldn't feed or why Taurus couldn't fix it. I hear that they are having a lot of mag problems, and that could easily be it. The upside is that after I sold the gun back to the dealer, I bought a M&P c 45, and it has turned out to be an awesome pistol. I shot it for the first time yesterday - 150 rounds of bulk ball and 50 rounds of GD's and GS's with not the hint of a problem. 200 rounds in less than 45 minutes meant that I was not going for accuracy, but the gun didn't know that. For the last 4 mags, I moved the target from 30 to 45 ft, and shot out the 10 ring, with a few in the 9 - a 2 inch group with no flyers, and right on POA. There was a GBI Lt next to me practicing double taps, and he what are you shooting over there. I told him and he said good gun - great groups. I haven't shot that well in 20 years.

BTW, I still haven't been back to the Taurus forum. I just hope my 24/7 keeps running well.

Those M&P's and specifically the M&PC 45 are great guns. They feel awesome in the hand. I came very close to pushing the button on one of those when I hit the PM45 button. Just wanted to add to the compact stable but there's still an M&P in my sights for the future. Our local sheriffs office is just now transitioning to the M&Ps from glocks. We nearly did but opted for Glocks simply because of holster and accessory availability. I opted for the M&P, ranges guys wanted XDs and the brass wanted Glocks. They won and I really dont regret it, no issues, easy armory classes, parts. The smith rep did promise us a class and a pile of parts when if needed.

jocko
05-11-2010, 05:53 PM
M& P also is one nice looking semi to. I think they are as good as glocks. Owned one and had it completely reworked by David Bowie and that was one scary trigger after I got it back from him. You just couldn't feel anything but total smoothness . When I first got my M & P, it had IMO the worlds worst trigger in it. Just terrible to say the least.

Truth be know though I sodl this gun as I just never could cuddle up to it like I could my tuned G19 which for me I could out shoot the M & P. But I never ha done issue witht he M & P. Fine gun. I think Smith got it right this time. the backstrap thing was a super nice feature.

Bawanna
05-12-2010, 06:34 PM
Hi, new guy here, new to Kahrs, new to life, new derelict. Wannabe taxi driver.

Just got word that "MY" PM45 has left Kentucky and is scheduled to hit an FFL near me Friday the 14th, as in day after tomorrow. The FFL tells me his UPS shipments usually arrive in the am and he will email me when he has it in his hands.
Anyone know how to assemble a PM45 that comes in multiple pieces just in case I got a kit? I have to admit I'm getting just a bit excited in anticipation and it's helping immensely with putting what the sawbones is gonna do to me tomorrow in the back of my head at least for a bit.
I'll keep ya posted on how the shadow box display case is coming.

snuffy
05-12-2010, 06:37 PM
The waiting is the best part about receiving a new toy.
That and ya get to start a new thread. :boink:

Bawanna
05-12-2010, 06:41 PM
The waiting is the best part about receiving a new toy.
That and ya get to start a new thread. :boink:

I relate waiting to kind of your signature line. It turns my hobby into insanity. I don't start too many new threads, guess I'm shy but I might give her a shot when my new toy arrives, especially if there isn't some assembly required.

Michael W.
05-12-2010, 07:03 PM
Hi, new guy here, new to Kahrs, new to life, new derelict. Wannabe taxi driver.

Just got word that "MY" PM45 has left Kentucky and is scheduled to hit an FFL near me Friday the 14th, as in day after tomorrow. The FFL tells me his UPS shipments usually arrive in the am and he will email me when he has it in his hands.
Anyone know how to assemble a PM45 that comes in multiple pieces just in case I got a kit? I have to admit I'm getting just a bit excited in anticipation and it's helping immensely with putting what the sawbones is gonna do to me tomorrow in the back of my head at least for a bit.
I'll keep ya posted on how the shadow box display case is coming.

Woohoo! Looks like it's gonna be a fun weekend:)
(Make sure you have that bottle of red loctite with you!:D

Well, my CW40 arrived at the FFL today, but I was too frapping busy
to stop by to pick it up. So tomorrow sometime I suppose.
Not sure if I can make it to the range tomorrow but who knows...I just might:)

M-

Bawanna
05-12-2010, 07:54 PM
Woohoo! Looks like it's gonna be a fun weekend:)
(Make sure you have that bottle of red loctite with you!:D

Well, my CW40 arrived at the FFL today, but I was too frapping busy
to stop by to pick it up. So tomorrow sometime I suppose.
Not sure if I can make it to the range tomorrow but who knows...I just might:)

M-

No red loctite for this kid, I'm taking it out to my buddy in the city shop and have him weld the bastard. You get a new recoil spring setup coming your way yet? On their dime I hope.

O'Dell
05-12-2010, 09:55 PM
Hi, new guy here, new to Kahrs, new to life, new derelict. Wannabe taxi driver.

Just got word that "MY" PM45 has left Kentucky and is scheduled to hit an FFL near me Friday the 14th, as in day after tomorrow. The FFL tells me his UPS shipments usually arrive in the am and he will email me when he has it in his hands.
Anyone know how to assemble a PM45 that comes in multiple pieces just in case I got a kit? I have to admit I'm getting just a bit excited in anticipation and it's helping immensely with putting what the sawbones is gonna do to me tomorrow in the back of my head at least for a bit.
I'll keep ya posted on how the shadow box display case is coming.

Put tab A into slot A, Put tab B into.................

jlottmc
05-13-2010, 09:41 PM
Tabs and slots???? When did this forum get all pornographical???

snuffy
05-14-2010, 12:24 PM
Just got word that "MY" PM45 has left Kentucky and is scheduled to hit an FFL near me Friday the 14th, as in day after tomorrow. The FFL tells me his UPS shipments usually arrive in the am and he will email me when he has it in his hands.


Well is it in your hands yet. :confused: :confused: :madgrin:

Bawanna
05-14-2010, 12:30 PM
Well is it in your hands yet. :confused: :confused: :madgrin:

I'm monitoring my computer screen waiting for the new message signal, van is parked facing west, the direction of the FFL, driving gloves on, ready to roll. No word yet. OK OK I lied about the driving gloves, just a little white lie and momma says a little white lie won't hurt nobody.
Hoping to uncross the fingers soon, getting most uncomfortable.

Bawanna
05-14-2010, 01:08 PM
Well is it in your hands yet. :confused: :confused: :madgrin:

A picture speaks a thousand words or almost 1 whole Wynn post. The word is in, I'll let the picture do the talking. See ya in a bit.

wyntrout
05-14-2010, 01:09 PM
I love it! Can't wait!
Wynn:D

wyntrout
05-14-2010, 01:23 PM
Well, I guess this is the last shuttle launch... Atlantis. It's too dang cloudy to the east. I guess I won't see anything.... maybe the rockets' exhaust "clouds" when they drift this way.
Now our guys will be begging for and paying through the nose for rides from the Rooskies... or maybe later, the Chinese.:eek:
Wynn

jocko
05-14-2010, 01:26 PM
Well, I guess this is the last shuttle launch... of Atlantis. It's too dang cloudy to the east. i guess I won't see anything.... maybe the rockets' exhaust "clouds" when they drift this way.
Wynn

I hope they didn't accidently get BAWANNA'S PM45 stowed away on that shuttle:confused:

wyntrout
05-14-2010, 01:37 PM
I hope they didn't accidently get BAWANNA'S PM45 stowed away on that shuttle:confused:

I was thinking about an "oopsie"... like they sent a HiPoint .45 by mistake... one of those small "anvil-like" low-tech thingies.
Wynn:D

Michael W.
05-14-2010, 02:39 PM
Well, I guess this is the last shuttle launch... Atlantis. It's too dang cloudy to the east. I guess I won't see anything.... maybe the rockets' exhaust "clouds" when they drift this way.
Now our guys will be begging for and paying through the nose for rides from the Rooskies... or maybe later, the Chinese.:eek:
Wynn

Actually while it IS Atlantis' last flight it isn't the final shuttle launch.
Both Endeavor and Discovery have one more flight each.
NASA - NASA's Shuttle and Rocket Launch Schedule (http://www.nasa.gov/missions/highlights/schedule.html)

I completely forgot about the launch but I was coming home from the range
and driving east on the 417 when it went off. Perfect view of a glorious sight.

Range report to follow.......

Michael-

wyntrout
05-14-2010, 03:03 PM
Our house is about 9 to 10 miles from the ocean and there's usually haze or clouds that block the visibility, even when it seems fairly clear.
Going down there to watch the launch is too iffy with all of the maintenance and weather delays.
The first launch I saw was the best... late in the day/evening with the sun to the West. I saw the whole shuttle and boosters and the separation and all of the engines flaring at once... fantastic, but not like from the beach or closer to Canaveral.
I've seen the shuttles being flown around piggy-back on the special airliners they use for that. While I was stationed at Dyess AFB near Abilene, Texas(1974-1983), I saw those piggy-backed shuttles there more than a few times. Those things are really stark black and white... pretty burned looking. Security was crazy... getting upset with us for wanting to taxi a B-52 by after returning from a mission(training). Jeez... we sat alert with our nations most powerful WMDs loaded on our planes and security can't trust us to taxi within a hundred yards of the shuttle sitting on an airliner... on our own freaking base!!
Wynn:rolleyes:

jocko
05-14-2010, 03:08 PM
I was thinking about an "oopsie"... like they sent a HiPoint .45 by mistake... one of those small "anvil-like" low-tech thingies.
Wynn:D

aware the kahr PM45 is a knock off of the HiPoint 45. Bet Bawanna doesn't know that. You can still get the HiPoint 45 in my area for 6 books of green stamps.:boink:

wyntrout
05-14-2010, 03:28 PM
HA! HA! I saw one of those things at my FFL dealer's store about a month ago. A guy was looking t it and wanted me to hold it and feel its heft. He was impressed... I was too, but I didn't want to spoil the dealer's possible sale.:D It was the opposite of everything Kahr... well, it WAS all black, and that was the only thing in common, unless unless you count it shooting .45 ACP. It must have weighed as much as THREE PM45s!
I don't remember how it was priced but it must have been too much, though that dealer doesn't mark stuff up much.
Dang, I had better shut up before I call it a POS and hurt somebody's feelings on this forum, though it's hard to imagine a Kahr owner having one of those... hell of a doorstop or paperweight!

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/handguns/45acp/hi_point_45acp.html
HiPoint says 35 ounces... $186 suggested retail!

Throw in a magazine and 10 rounds of .45 ACP, it must be around 45-46 ounces... a hair less than twice the loaded PM45's 23.4 ounces

Wynn:D

Bawanna
05-14-2010, 03:44 PM
You guys are rotten! HI POint my backside! The Eagle has landed! So far all I know is I don't see any pieces missing, triggers there, slide, frame, funny book with all the big words. I think I can see the bevel on the stripper but not certain, started to tear it down and though naaah, I'll read the book, do it at home, do it right. You guys can just wait a bit. Dealer had never seen one before, didn't believe it was a 45, more of a rifle guy. He was genuinely impressed. Boy do I suffer, I'm half a mile from his place and theres a car fire, road all blocked off, 10 cop cars all blocking the road. I finally got there and he was a talker, good guy but took an hour and a half to fill out the papers. I did get some checkering tools while I was there so all is good. Looks good, feels great in the hand, can't believe how small it is. Now I gotta work like heck so I can get stuff done, get out here and start the breaking in your "MY" new Kahr procedure. I'm thinking range sunday, hopefully with pics. PIcs for sure if not allowed at the range. Proof of purchase if you will. You guys should be danged ashamed of your self. High Point! The BIG Grin is already apparent.:israel::israel:

wyntrout
05-14-2010, 03:51 PM
Hey! Finally! Great! I'm so happy for you. Congratulations! Can't wait for the pictures... the SEG, too.:D
I've been sitting here and haven't done squat while waiting on your safe return home with your new baby!!
:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:
Wynn:D

jocko
05-14-2010, 03:55 PM
well it is here and now we have to wait two more friggin days for you to shoot it. WTF bawanna, get those wheels greased up, and grab the K40 while your at it, scew the photos. seen one hi pont you have seen um all. remember the big bullets go in the 45 and the smaller ones go in the 40 cal.

If u need kahrs CS address, just give me a buzz, I know the inside man there, he can get your PM45 fixed and back in less than 6 months. We only want to hear good reports from you, so if we don't hear from you we can assume and u know what happens when we assume. It makes an ass out of u and me. good luck ol timer and just shoot it like you stole it.

PS: It really is a high point knock off though..

jocko
05-14-2010, 03:58 PM
Hey! Finally! Great! I'm so happy for you. Congratulations! Can't wait for the pictures... the SEG, too.:D
I've been sitting here and haven't done squat while waiting on your safe return home with your new baby!!
:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:
Wynn:D

likely wyn, bawanna will take the damn gun apart and loose a few parts and then we will be in a wait "again" period while he reorders the "correct" parts.:boink::boink:

This PM45 is going to be OK. The people at Kahr even told me that they paid special attention to this one as it was going to a special guy, so rest assured, he will have no issues and he will be a happy camper with his new Hi-Point P45.

wyntrout
05-14-2010, 04:10 PM
I hope he wears a bib and doesn't get too much drool or that "Tetra grease" in the action.:D
I can't believe he can think about doing anything else today. He should have taken the day off and had his range bag and camera loaded in the van... and ammo!

Dang! It's after 5PM here and I haven't done squat around the house! My wife is liable to sabotage this computer!:eek:

I want to see how Bawanna's first day with his new toy goes. Dang! I wish we had live feed or he would put some video on YouTube!

Jocko, how much are we going to have to cajole you or twist your arm to get you to join this elite group of PM45 owners??

Wynn:D

jocko
05-14-2010, 04:14 PM
so sorry, I am a 9mm fan, and as long as my PM9 works like it does, it will always be in my front pocket. I sure would like to shoot one of the PM45 though to get the feel of it, no doubt I would have to magna port it. Hell I even port my lawn mower mufflers.

a guy gotta do what a guys gotta do.

Maybe BAWANNA will sell me his Hi point ???

If I got a PM45 out of the box that worked perfect, I certainly would be one of the "elite" people..

Bawanna
05-14-2010, 04:15 PM
I hope he wears a bib and doesn't get too much drool or that "Tetra grease" in the action.:D
I can't believe he can think about doing anything else today. He should have taken the day off and had his range bag and camera loaded in the van... and ammo!

Dang! It's after 5PM here and I haven't done squat around the house! My wife is liable to sabotage this computer!:eek:

I want to see how Bawanna's first day with his new toy goes. Dang! I wish we had live feed or he would put some video on YouTube!

Jocko, how much are we going to have to cajole you or twist your arm to get you to join this elite group of PM45 owners??

Wynn:D


I'll help arm twist and even throw in a few bucks even though I don't think he eever liked me, probably never did, never will. I'd go to the range tomorrow but my son and gun bearer works saturdays now. Might go anyhow but he'd not be happy with me. Your right I should have took the day off, might as well have for all I'm getting done today. Was gone all day yesterday being a test dummy so gotta get r dun today.

wyntrout
05-14-2010, 04:33 PM
Well, don't put any bullets in it when you take it to bed tonight! I'm so happy for you, man. I know it must be hard to wait to shoot it, though.
I waited 11 months... ELEVEN MONTHS... for my P380 and after finally getting it, I sent it back the next day unfired because of the dead front NS. I was kind of hoping if I kept it "unfired" that maybe I could get a deal on a Black P380... no such luck, though.
I think that I'll go vacuum the refrigerator cooling coils/fins... whatever... one of Wifey's "Honey-Do" Post-its. I need to have done something today!! I feel too much like Andy Capp... too often... and I know she thinks that, too.:rolleyes:
Don't forget to "pre-flight" your new "Tiny" or whatever you're cooing as its name while fondling it. You can bevel a bit more and open up that notch and polish everything... just don't let any parts get away from you!:eek:
Congrats, again.
Wynn:D

ClutchDisk
06-26-2013, 05:33 PM
I have to concur with everything that Michael stated. Picked up the PM45 about 6 weeks back. Never owned a Kahr before. Was looking for a Springfield M-1911 sub compact. Couldn't find one. Gun shop said he had a Kahr 9mm. I said I like to keep with 45 due to my M1911 mil spec pistol. Showed me the PM45. Felt real good in my hand. Look good too. Brought it to the range and didn't know what to expect. PM45 was unreal. Very accurate, no problems, with the exception of me not operating the slide correctly. Road the slide instead of letting her loose. Very impressive hand gun. No malfunctions was using ball ammunition Federal. Very fine weapon. If you shoot loose expect some problems.