'New' P380 in Unacceptable Condition

[TaughtBiscuit]

Hey everyone.

Been spending the last few months agonizing over whether to get the PM9 or the P380, and have finally decided on both.

Called around ALL the gun stores in my area until I heard the nicest price. I wanted a P380 with DLC (black) finish, but just the plain ol' white dot sites. Like most gun stores, this store let me know that they don't carry this particular DLC P380 in stock, but they can order it for me. I put down a $110 deposit and eagerly waited one week to pick up one of the world's most expensive, smallest and beloved 380's.

When I got to the store a week later, the guy (who was actually one of the nicest, most professional guys I've dealt with up until this point) brings me my brand 'new' Kahr P380. When I first opened the box and took a look, I was really taken aback.

Inside the box, the pistol was inside of its own ziplock bag, and was also COMPLETELY covered in some kind of oil. I mean every single external part of this pistol was SOAKED like it had been submerged in it. That was the first thing I noticed was just how wet the gun was. I'd never seen that in my life before, so I asked the guy and his explanation was that this dealer they ordered from is based in Miami where it's humid, so that's why they coat the pistol like that. He assured me that most Kahrs actually come from the factory like that anyways, and so did a customer who was shopping in the store at the time (I still couldn't believe it though...I know none of my Glocks came covered in liquid like that).

He takes the gun out of the bag, wipes it down for me then precedes to do a take down so I can see the internals.

Before he was even finished getting the takedown pin out, I noticed something was up with the barrel. I could see pitting (don't know if this is the correct word - look at the pics and correct me please!) on the base of the barrel that shows through the slide 'hole', the part of the barrel that actually has '.380' stamped on it.

When he finally got the gun apart, the rest of the barrel was revealed and holy hell, I've never seen anything like this. Even he looked at it and let out a sort of exasperated noise with a smile and said that 'yeah they just make 'em like that sometimes. That's just how Kahrs are, it's how they come in'. I mean I couldn't believe it - it's like they finished the barrel, then asked a welder with a torch to come in and **** the barrel all up and make it as ugly as possible in random spots.

I looked around other parts of the gun carefully and noticed what I thought was rust, then I realized it was just excessive (I mean EXTREMELY, cartoonishly excessive) factory lubrication of some kind.

Other blatant imperfections included an already wearing down DLC finish on the underside of the slide (of course you'd expect some DLC finish to wear off on the underside of the slide once the gun has been fired a bit, but I wouldn't think that the few test rounds fired from it would cause the wearing down of the DLC finish that I saw. Look at the slide rails in picture #4 - on significant parts of both slide rails the DLC is already worn down to almost completely silver (is this usual for a brand new DLC Kahr?)
Upon looking at the mostly plastic frame, I saw that the ridge just above where the takedown pin inserts was noticeably chewed and grinded up. You know, just imagine what happens to a piece of plastic if you take it and grind it back and forth against the sidewalk for a little bit - it gets all chewed up and 'stringy' in places and has that ground up plastic look. Well that's how the whole side of this pistol looked. In the pictures I'll post below it's sort of hard to see because I'm a ****** photographer, but look at the ridge just above the yellow retention pin (don't know what this piece is actually called on the Kahr). The ground up plastic is actually most visible in Picture # 2.


Anyways - despite this guy's assurances that this was just 'how they come in some times', I was still very upset and unwilling to pay $599 for a brand 'new' gun that looks like this. He gave me a refund for my deposit without question, and I left very disappointed.

My question for you guys is - did I make the right choice? Do all new Kahr pistols come from the factory completely coated with thick oil all over the outside of the gun? Are significant barrel imperfections/burns straight out of the factory 'normal' for a Kahr? How about the chewed up plastic parts? Please take a look at the photos below and let me know if I made the right choice in walking away. I also need to know what to expect next week when I order the same pistol from a different store.

-Taught

http://i39.tinypic.com/fcjtwl.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/k1574z.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2ii8qyx.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/amuotc.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/n5sg7s.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2vinu2q.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/142x84k.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/li9l1.jpg

[gb6491]

Neither of the two Kahrs that I bought new came covered in oil.
None of the Kahrs I've owned had/have a barrel that looks like that. I don't recall anyone ever posting photos here of a Kahr barrel in similar condition.
None have a yellow coated slide stop spring.
The polymer rails are there to help guide the slide onto the frame. In use, you might expect to see some wear along them from firing the gun.
Those rails can also show damage if someone is sloppy when reassembling the pistol (I suspect that on this pistol)..
I can't speak to the DLC finish as I've never owned a Kahr with it.

That P380 is either damaged or defective. You were right to walk away from it. I believe the pistol you order next week will arrive in satisfactory condition.

Regards,
Greg

BTW, welcome to the forums.

[Phanes]

I am really shocked this went out in that condition. I have several Kahrs and I have never seen them show up like that. It is not uncommon for compacts to be a bit picky about what they shoot but outside of that my Kahrs have been good to go and came from the factory with some oil. I agree with gb walking away from that was smart.

[muggsy]

Can you say Hurricane Katrina? This gun looks like it was used and a victim of salt water immersion. I would avoid doing business with this supplier in the future.

[JohnR]

Miami is humid, but what gun dealer has an un air-conditioned storage area? Jax is humid, but we're all indoors in modern air conditioned buildings. Sumpin's wrong with that picture.

[berettabone]

You SURE did the correct thing.................I've never seen anything like it.

[Longitude Zero]

WOW. Makes me think they are passing off a badly abused used pistol. I have seen guns with a bit of oil an degrease but never that much. As for the scorch marks on the barrel and the brass discoloration on the bottom of the slide I have no answers.

[cloud]

I own two kahrs one of them the black p380.Neither gun looked like that when the lgs called for me to pick them up .Yes you made the right decision to walk.

[Bawanna]

No way that gun is new, as Greg pointed out the are too many things that just don't happen like that.

Both the new kahrs I got were very oily. They just never know how long they are going to set on a distributors shelf and I don't mind it at all.

That gun isn't even good enough to be a refurbish or blem. Not sure what happened to it but it ain't right. The yellow take down spring baffles me, never seen that.

Maybe it's the original prototype and was used for production meetings or something.

Probably serial number 1 and worth a million buck. Crap, we blew it again.

[jocko]

sumpin stinks about that gun,totally. I thikI would email those photos to Jay at kahr and inquire about them, as to if this gun is being sold as new and in this condition would u consider it new, The yellow springhy is certainly odd,unless kahr figures they have some real dumb fokks assemblying these gun and has a big eye chart at each work table with a yellow springhy going only to te P380. Just sayin

the lightness of the dlcfinisnon the inside of the slide is normal,thebarrel to me almost looks like a barrel that has come from a gun that has had premature bang thing happen before full lock up, there fore shooting flames down the side of the barrel. thsoe are b urn marks.

The salesman should have b een professional enough to say this gun is not right and not alibi . I have bought 2 new kahrs and they both came dry. I don't buy the florida sh!t story either... Nuttin wrong with a gun swimmingin oil utter than the mess of cleaning it u before that first trip.

[otium]

Agree that something is not right with that example.

I don't have any unboxing pictures, but mine have all been in a plastic bag covered with only a very light oil coating. Kind of wet, but not really soaking in it. You could clean it up with one sheet of paper towel. I could tell they had minimal test round firings done.

This photographic example looks like something that came out some kind of long term torture test. I, too, would have had no problem passing on it.

Try finding a more acceptable example through another dealer.

[jocko]

otium: u have no clue as to what a long term torture test shouldl ook like. I am diggin back inmy files of being married to my first wife for 17 years. I have a photo of day 1 of our marriage and year 17, THAT MY FRIEND IS A LONG TERM TORTURE TEST AND WHAT IT TRULY LOOKS LIKE

[skiflydive]

Do "dealers" get the guns directly from Kahr or a "distributor"? I think distributor and I'd be pointing my finger there rather than Kahr. The dealer guy is an a$$hat for telling you they come that way sometimes.

[Ikeo74]

I think the gun is new but just dirty. I see no wear on the barrel or inside the slide. I think the dealer was correct in his description. A good clean up and the gun would look perfect. That is my opinion. Look at the barrel, there are no scuff marks anywhere on it. The barrel hood has no scratches or scuff marks like you see if the gun has been fired.

[jocko]

Do "dealers" get the guns directly from Kahr or a "distributor"? I think distributor and I'd be pointing my finger there rather than Kahr. The dealer guy is an a$$hat for telling you they come that way sometimes.

get them from distrubutors. I would blame kahr more than any distrubutor for how this gun looks NO one to my knowledge makes a yellow slide lock spring. I just don't see a distributor opening up a box and they shooting the piss out of the gun and then returning it back tothe box and sending it out to a dealer. Just my 21 cents.

[jocko]

I think the gun is new but just dirty. I see no wear on the barrel or inside the slide. I think the dealer was correct in his description. A good clean up and the gun would look perfect. That is my opinion. Look at the barrel, there are no scuff marks anywhere on it. The barrel hood has no scratches or scuff marks like you see if the gun has been fired.

u have taken this gun then?? It might be deemed NEW as it was never ever registered to an owner,but IMO this is certainy not a new gun and test fired only.

Think about that car auction of that old time car dealer that had hundreds of cars in his buildings and fields. Most all were NEW CARS in legal terms as never being sold, but all looked like sh!t.

[warbird1]

Those are some ugly pictures. WOW! I would not want that one. You did right.

[jocko]

Those are some ugly pictures. WOW! I would not want that one. You did right.

Pelosie and Feinstein are UGLY. I just can't put those photos in the same category.:target::Amflag2:

[Ikeo74]

If that has ever been fired it was only 1 test shot. There is no wear on any of the pictures. Compare it to your own gun that has been fired and see the difference. Look at your guns's barrel to compare. I call it "new", not used. I would have kept it. IMO

[Longitude Zero]

If it looks bad IT IS BAD. There are far too many good looking guns out there to get burned with and ugly POS like he tried to foist off on you. Passing is the only smart option.

[AFDoc]

What appears to be brass build-up on the stripper makes me think it was more than test-fired. And the polymer rails look chewed up to me as well. I would have walked.

The most oily packaging I've seen was on a new Bersa that comes from S. America and it was not near that greasy.

Have you had any other dealings with this dealer? Based on your account of what he said and the pictures, makes me wonder about his integrity.

[jocko]

if its new someone should explain the burn marks around the barrel. I can tellyou if u look at my pMJ9, there is not a polymer slide mark on the frame, NOT ANYWHGERE. My barrel looks perfect, It is as shinny as the day I got it. there are noi shooting wear marks on my barrel or hood, although I do polish my barrel alot to keep it looking shinny. What I am saying is my PMJ9 looks totally new, in every detail. U cannot show me any wear what so ever. So for me to look at a new gun that looks like that is pure bull sh!t. It ain't new, it might not have been registered for the first time but that gun is not new. I have yet to hear of any explanation of the YELLOW slide locki spring..

again it is all up to the buryer but Longtitude zero says it well, there are enough NERW lookin g totally new guns out there to buy and why take a chance. I wonder what kahr would say if one just boxed up that gun without firing a shot and sending it back. I seriously doubt if they are gonna buy any response that THIS IS A NEW GUN NEVER SHOT. This gun could indeed be sumpin that was an in house kahr test type gun that somehow got boxed up and sent out..I amtrying to find out more myself, but I think like I said I would send those photos to kahr attn: Jay and run these questions by him. If it was indeed a gunt hat was not supposed to have been shipped out of the factory, theymight want to know that. I just feel he is not gonna say all is well, just shoot it like u stole it..

[Armybrat]

Neither of my new Kahrs looked remotely like that.

[Ikeo74]

[QUOTE=jocko;267057]if its new someone should explain the burn marks around the barrel. My barrel looks perfect, It is as shinny as the day I got it. there are noi shooting wear marks on my barrel or hood, although I do polish my barrel alot to keep it looking shinny. So for me to look at a new gun that looks like that is pure bull sh!t. It ain't new, it might not have been registered for the first time but that gun is not new. I have yet to hear of any explanation of the YELLOW slide locki spring..

The dark areas on the barrel are not burn marks, it is grease. It could be wiped off with a soft cloth. The biggest problem I see it the poor, out of focus pictures. The pictures that are in focus show no wear to any surfaces of the barrel or frame. The slide discoloration is out of focus grease, not wear. Look close at the barrel picture and the one with the bottom of the trigger guard, there are no wear marks on either picture. However I do agree that it is not as clean as most of the Kahr new guns sold. As for wear, I don't see any wear, only grease buildup which think would wipe off with the same rag that cleans off the barrel. As for the yellow spring, that is a new color, but no after market will ever have that part so it had to come from Kahr, yellow.

[copterdrvr]

If that's the grease that Kahr is using they must be scraping it off of the U joints of a 53 Desoto-that is the nastiest looking crap I've seen on a gun. 50 year old cosmoline doesn't look that bad!

Looks to me that there's a BUnCH of brass showing from lots of rounds fired.

[gb6491]

I think that the dark areas on the barrel are the results of an improperly done nickel plating process.
Regards,
Greg

[bonjorno2]

Wow that looks bad

[jocko]

[QUOTE=jocko;267057]if its new someone should explain the burn marks around the barrel. My barrel looks perfect, It is as shinny as the day I got it. there are noi shooting wear marks on my barrel or hood, although I do polish my barrel alot to keep it looking shinny. So for me to look at a new gun that looks like that is pure bull sh!t. It ain't new, it might not have been registered for the first time but that gun is not new. I have yet to hear of any explanation of the YELLOW slide locki spring..

The dark areas on the barrel are not burn marks, it is grease. It could be wiped off with a soft cloth. The biggest problem I see it the poor, out of focus pictures. The pictures that are in focus show no wear to any surfaces of the barrel or frame. The slide discoloration is out of focus grease, not wear. Look close at the barrel picture and the one with the bottom of the trigger guard, there are no wear marks on either picture. However I do agree that it is not as clean as most of the Kahr new guns sold. As for wear, I don't see any wear, only grease buildup which think would wipe off with the same rag that cleans off the barrel. As for the yellow spring, that is a new color, but no after market will ever have that part so it had to come from Kahr, yellow.

ythat he ever stated it was grease on that barrel. has any member here seen the NEW COLOR springhy yet?? I might be assuming but u certainly are also assuming..

[garyb]

YIKES! I did not read all the initial thread...I just looked at the photos. I Hope that is not a new one. I'd be sending it back.

EDIT: Read the thread. Glad you did not purchase this one. Looks used to me, but the photos are not all that great to tell for certain. Kahrs don't come like that. The dealer did you right, but if he sold any number of Kahrs he'd know they don't come that way. Something happened to this one. Pays to inspect before you lay out the cash. What a mess. Good for you.

[MarkB1]

The color of the spring almost looks like possible exposure to sulfur or chlorine compounds.

[Jeff1000]

There’s no way in hell Kahr would send a gun out looking like that. That gun has been hammered and someone is trying to sell it as new. I bought 2 Kahrs new and they were both beautiful and pristine.

[copterdrvr]

I purchased 4 Kahrs new and NONE of them looked like that-in fact they were pretty darn clean!

[jocko]

Here is the straight poop. the yellow spring is about exactly what I said at first off, that this could be a color thing so the techs don't get um mixed up with the standard kahr slide stop springs. this is an in house production change and supposable all 380 willhave this yellow spring.

The crappy looking barrel, was told to me that it was merely oil and nuttin else, so if true Itxi is right and my apology on it. This statement also came from someone who is merelly also looking at the photo but he knows his stuff, so I trust his judgement. He did say the gun should have never left kahr looking that way either.

His last comment was. The fella should have bought the gun..

If indeedthe barrel was simply uncleaned oil, then nuttin was wrong with the gun, but in defense of that to, why did not the gun sop merely wipe off that barrel to show it was only oil l. Would have been very easy to do to show an owner..

__________________

oL JOCKO JUST BE THE MESSENGER HERE GUYS, form ur own opinion..

[DpEnd]

My first thought after reading this thread and looking at the pictures was a that there was a chemical reaction of some kind.

[TaughtBiscuit]

Hey guys, thanks for all the responses.

That is definitely not just 'oil' on the barrel. Up close it looked like scorch marks. It definitely could not be wiped off, that's for sure. In fact, those pictures I took were after the dealer had wiped the gun down already.

I'm glad I checked. Can anyone verify what jocko is saying about the new P380's all coming with yellow springs? (post #33, 2 posts above this).
And yes, the polymer guide rails were very chewed up.

Well, I finally found another P380 from a different dealer (he had to request it, then wait a couple weeks), but he wants ALL the cash up front before he orders it. After this first experience, I'm very hesitant to put anything more than a deposit down. If it was an LCP I could understand, but this isn't a cheap pistol for its size.
What would you guys do? I know all situations differ but, in general, would you pay in full up front before ever laying eyes on a gun? I've been reassured that if it arrives in unacceptable condition, I will be refunded. However, what may be unsatisfactory for me might not be unsatisfactory to him (aka what if there's a purely cosmetic blemish, even a small one, that bothers me so much that I don't want that particular gun? For close to $700, I don't want much less than perfection in a new pistol. So I am nervous to proceed.

Tips from some grizzled elders?

[kerby9mm]

If a friend in your situation was to ask my opinion after reading this forum for more than 2 years I would say when in doubt don't. I doubt that the next p380 will come in the unacceptable condition as your first one but when I read of multiple issues with a particular gun I stay away from that model no matter how much I think I wanted it. Just my opinion on your question. By the way I have a mk9 & mk40 & think they are well made. I also don't like plastic from any gun manufacturer.

[97harley]

Both my PM9 and P380 were in perfect condition but my LGS had them in stock so I was able to inspect each one before buying. I would have passed if they put that in front of me too.

[MarkB1]

Hey guys, thanks for all the responses.

That is definitely not just 'oil' on the barrel. Up close it looked like scorch marks. It definitely could not be wiped off, that's for sure. In fact, those pictures I took were after the dealer had wiped the gun down already.

I'm glad I checked. Can anyone verify what jocko is saying about the new P380's all coming with yellow springs? (post #33, 2 posts above this).
And yes, the polymer guide rails were very chewed up.

Well, I finally found another P380 from a different dealer (he had to request it, then wait a couple weeks), but he wants ALL the cash up front before he orders it. After this first experience, I'm very hesitant to put anything more than a deposit down. If it was an LCP I could understand, but this isn't a cheap pistol for its size.
What would you guys do? I know all situations differ but, in general, would you pay in full up front before ever laying eyes on a gun? I've been reassured that if it arrives in unacceptable condition, I will be refunded. However, what may be unsatisfactory for me might not be unsatisfactory to him (aka what if there's a purely cosmetic blemish, even a small one, that bothers me so much that I don't want that particular gun? For close to $700, I don't want much less than perfection in a new pistol. So I am nervous to proceed.

Tips from some grizzled elders?

You can try another lgs or

Use a credit card to pay and then you can file a complaint with the credit card company and have the credit card company go after the money for you.

BUT - DO NOT FILL OUT ANY PAPERWORK UNTIL AFTER YOU INSPECT AND ACCEPT THE GUN. If the dealer says you need to fill out the paperwork first - walk away (no, run away!).

[SlowBurn]

No way that gun is new
+1
Run

[AFDoc]

Hey guys, thanks for all the responses.

That is definitely not just 'oil' on the barrel. Up close it looked like scorch marks. It definitely could not be wiped off, that's for sure. In fact, those pictures I took were after the dealer had wiped the gun down already.

I'm glad I checked. Can anyone verify what jocko is saying about the new P380's all coming with yellow springs? (post #33, 2 posts above this).
And yes, the polymer guide rails were very chewed up.

Well, I finally found another P380 from a different dealer (he had to request it, then wait a couple weeks), but he wants ALL the cash up front before he orders it. After this first experience, I'm very hesitant to put anything more than a deposit down. If it was an LCP I could understand, but this isn't a cheap pistol for its size.
What would you guys do? I know all situations differ but, in general, would you pay in full up front before ever laying eyes on a gun? I've been reassured that if it arrives in unacceptable condition, I will be refunded. However, what may be unsatisfactory for me might not be unsatisfactory to him (aka what if there's a purely cosmetic blemish, even a small one, that bothers me so much that I don't want that particular gun? For close to $700, I don't want much less than perfection in a new pistol. So I am nervous to proceed.

Tips from some grizzled elders?

I don't know if I'm grizzled but I'd wait 'till I found one I could inspect before putting money down sight unseen. That's just me though.

[Llanos]

I don't know if I'm grizzled but I'd wait 'till I found one I could inspect before putting money down sight unseen. That's just me though.


Wow! I just bought a new CM9 that looked nothing like that. I bought it from one of the online auction sites. All I was shown was a "stock" photo. I worry about someone shipping something like that to me. So far I've been lucky.

[mreaston]

Can anyone verify what jocko is saying about the new P380's all coming with yellow springs?

I acquired a new P380 recently (RD31XX) and there is yellow paint on the spring.

[franco45]

I agree with the boys on this one. I will add that the take down pin spring on my new CW380 is coated yellow. I found that a little odd but it doesn't seem to effect anything.

[booger switch]

What was the Serial Number on this P380? It looks like RD3167 but it's hard to tell for sure on my phone.

My Serial is @ 250 units away from this, and my box also had a Kahr #30 inspection tag just like this one. Not very comforting.

[dorangolv]

I think the gun is new but just dirty. I see no wear on the barrel or inside the slide. I think the dealer was correct in his description. A good clean up and the gun would look perfect. That is my opinion. Look at the barrel, there are no scuff marks anywhere on it. The barrel hood has no scratches or scuff marks like you see if the gun has been fired.

Look at the slide rails and the inside of the slide where the barrel hood rides. The black coating is worn right off. Serious wear. That is not just a 1 magazine test fire at the factory. That looks more like 200+ rounds minimum.