Bigger P/CW 380?

[ReManG]

I am a long time lurker here, I have shot the P380 (and several other Kahrs in 9mm) and it is a delight, helped the friend of mine that owns it set it up with the info/preps/mods found on this forum.

Here is my question: Would anyone see the need for a larger version of the P380 besides me? (Maybe a "T"380 designator?) I think the P380 is an excellent size and the functionality is beyond anything I experienced with other .380's.

The reason I would like to see a proportionately larger model in .380 is for novice shooters. If Kahr could scale up the P380 to a CW size (NOT THICKNESS HOWEVER) then a smaller stature person would have a skinny 8(or 9)+1, 14oz(?) compact sized 3.5" barrel length pistol that is "just right" as they say. Except it would be about like a strong .22lr pistol for recoil...with all the other Kahr attributes such as simplicity and durability as well as a (theoretical) easy to rack slide.

I think this would be a winning combination for a whole bunch of semi-auto neophytes and would not be intimidating to either shoot or learn the tap-rack-bang manual of arms that semi-autos have. Plus the .380 is not a caliber you would grow out of, it serves a valid function for SD.

I was looking at the Walther PK380 and if you have not handled one, check it out if you can. Racking the slide is easy compared to other pistols due to the locked breech design and .380 lower power recoil springs, but for me it is not the pistol for a neophyte with the "safeties" that are all over it. Still a nice pistol though, but a Kahr version of a "larger" .380 would fill my bill and float my boat.... The other upside would be 8(or 9) round mags for the P380!

[jocko]

Just my 21 cents, I think there would be no real marketr fgor such a gun. 380 has always been know as a deep ccw gun, Get bigger than I would just go with a 9mm or 40 cal in the kahr cm or pm series. Takes alot of start up money for a new line/model.

My prediction is we will see a double stack 9mm sooner than later. No proof of what I am saying either. My 21 cents, is if ur gonna waiste bacn carry a cw or P series, then why not make a DS kahr in sumpin like the CW or cm series. That is an area that kahr has always lacked in any offering as most of the utter gun makes who make sub compact single stack 9 and 40 also offer DS versions to.. Just sayin

[ReManG]

Jocko,

Your 21 cents is worth more than its numerical value, I have gained a lot of knowledge from your posts and the technical forum is gold with your postings. I did not ask the question for people that are experienced shooters for what they would want, but for a design that would accommodate the new shooters with an easy to use semi-auto in a (no caliber wars) center fire caliber. Easy to Rack, Shoot and Carry for neophytes are the thoughts behind this.

I am currently looking for a revolver for the daughter, due to the simple manual of arms (though not reloading) on them. She is a neophyte with handguns and would not shoot enough with a hard-to-shoot handgun (recoil or slide rack). Right now I am leaning toward the 22MAG version of the LCR for a number of reasons. The best reason right now is the ammunition, she can walk in and never get a round that will scare her in the recoil department. I have had experiences with 38 and 357 snubbies that made me pay closer attention to the ammunition selection (try full power 357 in a SP101 for your first firing of a snubbie as a new shooter). So a 38 would not be off the table, but she would have to get lighter recoiling ammunition for it, which may not always be had (not that the markets back to normal anyway).

This is the same thought I am having for the .380 as the basis for a neophyte semi-auto. There is no .380 that is going to kick significantly harder than the lowest factory loading. My limited experience with the P380 showed me this with a range of ammunition up to a half box of Buffalo Bore Hard Cast that was more noticeable, but not 38 spl vs full house 357 level or even 38 spl vs 38spl+P in an alloy frame.

I do think that along the lines you stated "the 380 is always a deep ccw gun" that Kahr rethought that with the PM9 and other "always full size" calibers and reversed that paradigm. If we reverse the 380 paradigm, it may bring in new shooters for semi-autos and let them enjoy shooting a "full size" pistol. I should say "Kahr size" pistol, as they do tend to be slimmer than most comparable handguns.

I agree with the money issues for a new line, but as we have seen with the CM/CW line, Kahr is doing what they can to bring new models in. This is more of a thought exercise than anything else anyway, just wondering out loud....

I am "meh" on a Double Stack Kahr, I have other double stacks that are great, but there is only Kahr for me in the Single Stack realm.......

[jocko]

seeif u can find here a goo dused Makarov. super 380, shots great, easy for a woman to use, far easier to hand rack thqan any kahr made and priced extremely low. Its all steel but ur daughter is not gona ccw it anyways..

Personally IMO a wheel gun s the best gun for a woman and especially a new shooter, easy to use, easy to unload, easy to load, can't jam, not as pleasant as a semi in many ways,. many like the Ruger lcr are extremely lite for carry but expect more recoil. she could even load the birdshop type rounds in tat 38 and not have to be deadon target with that round. Lots of options for a young gal. anyone can pull the trigger butr as u know loading a semi and unloading it and clearing jams are a whole new ball game for most women. They juyst state their extreeme pleasure in liking a semi when it goes bang every time and you have loaded the gun for her to di it with. That is not what it is alla bout as u well know..

[BEARDOG]

Do not think Kahr would make one... but Ruger did a up sized .380, check out the LC380

[ReManG]

BEARDOG,

I do not either, but am just looking to see if there was anyone else in here that had thought something like this. As for the LC380, I feel it is in the same boat as the Walther PK380, a good handgun, but not a simple one. I grew up in a firearm neutral with no possession of them household, so I had to sort things out for myself when I was out on my own. I remember some semi-autos I had that I just did not like due to the "safeties" that got in my way more than they helped. I had an E9 years back, now that was one semi-auto that felt like it should to me, no bells, no whistles, just function and ergonomics. How did you feel the first time you picked up a Kahr? No one here was an expert the first time they picked up a handgun, so I am just reflecting back to that time and thinking what would I have wanted. Simple, soft shooting, easy to carry, decent caliber....yeah a Kahr. I don't have a problem with recoil, some do though, and if you make the simplest, easiest shooting, non micro .380 out there, it would sell IMHO.

[SGT5711]

I was just thinking the other day, I would like to see an all steel K380.

[ReManG]

^ it could be the PT380 version, as in Pocket Tank .380.....

That would be seriously nice though...Recoil, what recoil?

[chrish]

You might check out the Sig P250. They released it in a 380 version last year and you'd have the ability to swap out to 9, 40, 45 later if you like with one of the caliber exchange kits. Not exactly Kahr sized, the P250 is a pretty chunky gun. I had one in 9, love it, but sold it to move on to greener pastures. It's Kahr-like in that there are no safeties, long DAO pull. Basically, it's a high capacity revolver. I believe the 380 is a 15rd capacity setup.

[Docbbc]

Wife and daughter shoot the LCR .357 with .38sp rounds. Hogue grip is awesome. They keep asking when I will take them shooting again.

[Cokeman]

I was just thinking the other day, I would like to see an all steel K380.

I've been wishing for a steel version of the P380 for a long time.

[muggsy]

I think that a up sized version of the P380 would sell. The PPK hasn't done done all that bad sales wise for a lot longer than Kahr has been around. There are shooters who need that half inch of grip and barrel to make the gun more manageable. Hell, I'd buy one just to have one.

[Tomac]

My wife owns two .380's: Her P380 for CCW and a SIG P250 subcompact for nightstand/range duty. While the P250 is significantly larger than the P380, it has a doublestack 12rd mag, a very similar trigger to her P380 (although the P250's trigger is true DAO), the slide is very easy for her to rack and recoil is very mild so she likes to practice w/it (she's petite and recoil-shy and doesn't like to shoot a lot of rds through her P380 when at the range).
Tomac

[ReManG]

Tomac,

Good to hear on the Sig P250, I will check that out when I find one. I think an up sized, but same width P380 would be interesting. A skinny handgun for sure, but definitely easy to shoot with the .380.

Muggsy,

I was thinking of about an inch more barrel length and about 3/4 - 1" longer grip frame for this. I would have to mock it up to get the right sort of dimensions for me, but the issue would be whats good for most people, not just me.

The steel frame P380 would also have some interesting applications for this idea as well. You could change grips obviously, but what about making a set of harder grips out of something like G-10 that extend below the grip providing more purchase? The steel frame would allow this, unlike the polymer. I only think the grip length increase would make new shooters feel more comfortable, and it could be reversed when they gain more experience.

[muggsy]

Whether you add a 1/2" or 1" your still talking about a very small handgun. An inch increase in the grip length would give you 2 more rounds. Hell, I'm open to about anything.

[ReManG]

Muggsy, I had not shot the P380 with the seven round mag, so I do not know how much that adds to the end. I can say, I get about one and a half, or maybe 2/3rds of my fingers on the grip of the P380 and it is still soooo easy to shoot. I will have to mock something up with some scrap kydex to simulate a longer grip next time I am out at my buddies house. Once I hit the limit to post pics, I will....

[Armybrat]

ReManG, if the Kahr PM45 and CW(.45. .40, & 9mm) owners can't even get Justin to sell flush fitting magazines for said pistols, I seriously doubt he's going to make a bigger .380.

We're still waiting for the announced CM45 and CW380.

[ReManG]

Armybrat,

I am not trying to get Justin to make a new pistol, this is just a thought exercise for me, figured I would see if anyone else had similar views. A wish list is free, and I was not aware of the flush fitting magazine issue for the other CW and PM pistols. I can only imagine what Kahr has to do to make a change to one of their 80 listed pistols. Considering that they were founded in 1995 and in 18 years they have 80 pistol variations, purchased Auto-Ordinance and Magnum Research, I know they have a lot on their plate. Kahr started with one 9mm design, and are now at a huge advantage in the market with their CW designs being very comparable to other manufacturers in price. I like the Kahr designs and anyone that has a firearm that is not custom has more than likely at some point thought "what if....". I hope I did not stir up your internal frustrations with Kahr on your issues with the magazines, not my intent. I am simply speculating due to a current issue I am having in looking for a pistol for the daughter, but only finding revolvers suitable for her and her current skill level.

[muggsy]

ReManG, if the Kahr PM45 and CW(.45. .40, & 9mm) owners can't even get Justin to sell flush fitting magazines for said pistols, I seriously doubt he's going to make a bigger .380.

We're still waiting for the announced CM45 and CW380.

Man can accomplish anything if he puts his mind to it.

[jocko]

Remang. IMO ur daughte ris better off witha wheel gun for numerous reasons, which has been stated on this forum....

[ReManG]

Jocko,

I am with you on this, I found a slightly used Taurus M380 for her. Not the best, but .380 trumps 22mag and the moon clips keep reloads handy with no need for speed loaders. I have enough experience with Taurus that I knew what to look for when I found it, it seems like one of the good ones. I have a little bit of work to do on it for my reliability concerns with the brand, but so far, so good. It does not kick too bad, not as soft as the P380 though....

[muggsy]

My sister shot my P380 and didn't like it because of the short grip, but fell in love with a Walther .380 and shoots it well.

[dsk]

Personally I'd like to see a P380 with a 1/4" longer slide and barrel, which might make it more reliable with most ammo types. In my opinion the grip size is fine, especially given its role as a pocket pistol.

[garyb]

I don't see the larger 380 either. Perfect cal for small pocket gun. Get a bigger gun for target in some other cal. JMO

[ReManG]

Update-

Took the daughter to the range with the P380, M380, and LCR's in .38spl, 22lr and 22mag. She liked the P380 but it was too short (like Muggsy's experience) the LCR in .38 was too much recoil with 110 gr loads for her, the M380 was still to much recoil. The LCR 22Mag was ok, but the one for her to shoot all day on was the LCR in 22LR. So she will have that for now until her skills upgrade and she is comfortable with shooting. Better than a sharp stick, not ideal except for the fact she LIKES to shoot it.

This forum is interesting with the ton of experience here, but all I was trying to speculate about on this thread was the fact a LARGER P380 platform would be (conceptually) easier for new shooters to transition to a semi-auto with. A TOTALLY different platform with only the caliber and width kept from the original, and with the shooting experience perhaps even lighter than the original P380 for new people to the sport to have a decent semi. I guess that most people cannot or will not get out of their own experience and would saddle others with what they like, instead of extrapolating what a neophyte who doesn't shoot may need. I really appreciated the positive feedback, and with Jocko and some of the others it is refreshing to hear the similarities in thinking that I have for my selection.

[mikemc53]

Am I missing something? It looks like Kahr has a CW 380 listed on the web site but I'm not sure if that is what this thread is talking about. I started browsing last night, just for kicks, and saw the CW 380 listed as new in 2013.

I have a S&W BG 380 and wanted to see what Kahr had if I chose to replace it. Really don't want to spend the $600 plus for a P380 and was very pleased when I saw the CW 380. If this is not the direction of this thread, I apologize but I liked what I saw.

[clayflingythingy]

People still buy over sized PPK/s, Sig P232, and Bersa Thunder in 380 so a longer slide/grip Kahr may very well find a market.

[yqtszhj]

Am I missing something? It looks like Kahr has a CW 380 listed on the web site but I'm not sure if that is what this thread is talking about. I started browsing last night, just for kicks, and saw the CW 380 listed as new in 2013.

I have a S&W BG 380 and wanted to see what Kahr had if I chose to replace it. Really don't want to spend the $600 plus for a P380 and was very pleased when I saw the CW 380. If this is not the direction of this thread, I apologize but I liked what I saw.

THe CW380 hasn't made it to the stores yet. :(

[RevRay]

seeif u can find here a goo dused Makarov. super 380, shots great, easy for a woman to use, far easier to hand rack thqan any kahr made and priced extremely low. Its all steel but ur daughter is not gona ccw it anyways...

I've been following Makarovs for the past 2-3 weeks on Armslist & Gunbroker and this one just showed up today. It's appears to be a nice gun for a nice $225 price, though the seller doesn't say whether he'll ship out of state or not.

http://www.armslist.com/posts/2271550/tulsa-oklahoma-handguns-for-sale--9mm-makarov-with-ammo

[ParabellumJ]

I've been following Makarovs for the past 2-3 weeks on Armslist & Gunbroker and this one just showed up today. It's appears to be a nice gun for a nice $225 price, though the seller doesn't say whether he'll ship out of state or not.

http://www.armslist.com/posts/2271550/tulsa-oklahoma-handguns-for-sale--9mm-makarov-with-ammo

I had been looking at CZ 82s and 83s on gunbroker and bought a fairly nice CZ 83 in 380 for $219. There are tons to choose from and many in good condition in the low 200's.

[TheTman]

Gunbroker has quite a few 9x18/Makarov caliber guns listed. I think a CZ-82 would be a good substitute for a bigger P380. I hear a lot of good things about that gun.

[ReManG]

I think the CZ82/83 is a good platform, I would really like a "full size" P380 though....

[ReManG]

I had a chance to handle a SIG P250 in .380 today, very nice and thanks for the heads up CHRISH. It does not accept the swap to the other calibers, the whole pistol is different from the other P250's it seems, and it is a SIG, so it has some wide hips compared to a Kahr.... But it is the closest to a larger P380 as I can find right now, so it may have to do. If anyone out there has one and would like to give me some feedback on the P250 IN .380, I would greatly appreciate it. The slide racks easier than the 9mm version as they had one in stock as well and let me compare. I can bet that it is a pussycat as far as recoil is concerned. At less than $500 out the door with night sights, it seems worth it for what I want it for.