Why the steep feed angle?

[East River Guide]

OK, so I had heard about it on the internet but had not seen it, kind of like UFOs or something. But I am a believer now- my newer P380 had been running great until I tried feeding it some new Fiocchi Shooting Dynamic 95 gr FMJ. Holy moly, jammed (FTF, FTRTB, and FTE) literally every other round, maybe 2 out of 3 rounds even. Went back to PMC and Magtech and AE and it runs fine. So apparently it has an allergy to one particular brand, even though it was FMJ. I can deal with that, just won't use Fiocchi again and will stick with AE.

So I tried the Fiocchi in my LCP. Ran fine, no failures at all. I love that about the LCP (side note- I highly recommend the new 2013 LCPs with the improved trigger and sights).

When I was cleaning both it really stood out to me how much steeper the feed angle is on the P380 then on the LCP. Yes, the P380 has a nice big shiny feed ramp compared to the tiny rough ramp on the LCP, but the LCP just eats everything you feed it. So with that observation in mind I was wondering, why did Kahr incorporate such a steep feed angle? You'd think there has to be some benefit they gained somewhere else otherwise you'd make the feed angle 0 degrees, or at least less steep like the LCP which feeds everything even with a small rough ramp.

Anyway, I like a lot of things about the P380, but on this issue my cheap LCP just seems to have the edge. So what was Kahr thinking?

[Longitude Zero]

I have NEVER seen a semi auto that did not choke on some rounds and love others. It is what it is. Kahr has excellent engineering behind their designs it is not just happenstance. You have to take into consideration the physics of the entire gun and not just one part to understand he whys and wherefores.

[deadeye]

Because of all the posts of folks having these problems I nearly didn't buy a Kahr. I did notice the steep feed ramp on my CM9 but it doesn't have any effect on the operation of the gun. I have fed nearly 1500 rounds of any type of ammo I could find through it and haven't had one problem. I did follow all the prep recommendations but have not made any mods to it other than a Talon grip. Am I just lucky?

[East River Guide]

Kahr has excellent engineering behind their designs it is not just happenstance. You have to take into consideration the physics of the entire gun and not just one part to understand he whys and wherefores.

My Glocks eat everything and so far I've yet to have one failure in a thousand rounds or so with the LCP, but I'm not a hater, I have 2 P380s and had a PM9 I liked. But that's what I want to understand, what IS the reason?. Because without knowing more I'd be wanting a feed angle closer to the LCP than the P380.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3723/10383257946_10e8c407d5_c.jpg

[yqtszhj]

My LCP has FTE on every round using independence .380 ammo. Other than that it feeds well. So the LCP isn't perfect but it is darn close.

[Dirty Harry]

I have NEVER seen a semi auto that did not choke on some rounds and love others. It is what it is. Kahr has excellent engineering behind their designs it is not just happenstance. You have to take into consideration the physics of the entire gun and not just one part to understand he whys and wherefores.

I guess you've never seen a Glock. :p

[Longitude Zero]

I guess you've never seen a Glock. :p

On the contrary I have 4 Glocks. They function well on most ammo but some have given them problems. It is a fact that generally the more ammo a gun will eat the looser the tolerances they have. Try comparing a Glock to a Bill Wilson gun. The Wilson is far superior and has tighter tolerances but also chokes on some ammo. Facts are pesky things.

[Dirty Harry]

On the contrary I have 4 Glocks. They function well on most ammo but some have given them problems. It is a fact that generally the more ammo a gun will eat the looser the tolerances they have. Try comparing a Glock to a Bill Wilson gun. The Wilson is far superior and has tighter tolerances but also chokes on some ammo. Facts are pesky things.

I have many guns. More of them are Glocks then anything else. There is a reason for that. I don't care how tight, how precision or how pretty they are. I just want them to function properly under any condition with any ammo.
Mine shoot any ammo without a problem.

[yqtszhj]

A glock is what it is which is fine, but they don't make a pocket .380 either or a 9mm small as the CM9/PM9. apples and oranges really, or at least oranges and grapefruit.

Back to the LCP, it's a good pocket pistol. So is the P380 when one gets it running right too.

[Longitude Zero]

Mine shoot any ammo without a problem.

There is something to be said for luck aka divine providence.

[O'Dell]

I guess you've never seen a Glock. :p

And I guess you've never talked to my son. He's an ex-police chief, and since he was injured, has been a training officer for several smaller departments. He is also a huge Glock fan, [I guess genes don't run that deep] but will admit that they have to be careful buying training and duty ammo, as some doesn't feed that well in Glocks. Most of his officers are now using Gold Dots for duty since they seem to work reliably.

[East River Guide]

Back the the question: Why the steep feed angle? What does this accomplish or allow elsewhere?




http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3723/10383257946_10e8c407d5_c.jpg

[wyntrout]

Kahr uses a short, steep feed ramp with an offset to make everything more compact. Everything has to work just right due to the short , lighter slide and strong springs for compactness.

Wynn:)

[berettabone]

The first 150 rds. I used to break in my MK9 were Fiocchi..............didn't have any problems until I switched over to Blazer Brass..........go figure.

[gb6491]

Back the the question: Why the steep feed angle? What does this accomplish or allow elsewhere?
My guess is that the magazine feed lip angle is partly determined by the relationship of the grip angle to the bore axis. The closer the grip angle is to being perpendicular with the the barrel's axis the less angle you will see from the magazine feed lips.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/los3088/LCP-KahrP380comparisonchart-1.jpg
Photo by LOS as posted here: http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reference-how-forum/120443-comparison-charts-ruger-lcp-vs.html

Regards,
Greg

[yqtszhj]

The Guru has spoken. (typed in the most respectful way) ;)

That settles it. The end.

[East River Guide]

My guess is that the magazine feed lip angle is partly determined by the relationship of the grip angle to the bore axis.

Yes, I think you are right. When I aligned the mags with the grips the P380 may have been a hair steeper but that adjustment brought them much closer.

Thanks!