What would you do during a robbery

[Allen]

Just heard on the news about another fast food robbery and since we eat in these places often I always wonder what I'd do.
Seems here the robber/robbers (don't know is the number was mentioned) made the customers lay on the floor while forcing the employees to empty all the registers. Then left without shooting anyone.
Assuming you were a customer there with your spouse and forced to lay on the floor during the robbery would it be prudent to just lay there hoping they'd just leave or not risking them to start shooting the customers would you draw you CCW and eliminate the risk? If you started shooting and any innocent by-standers were hit I'm sure you'd get the blame. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Sure don't know what I'd do. Any comments appreciated.

[xsailer]

If I thought they were obviously there to rob and run I would observe and be ready to defend if they started shooting at folks. Money is not worth the risk of innocents getting shot by me OR them. Of course if they started shooting after they had the loot I'd do my best to take them down. Problem is one never knows if they intend to shoot customers or hired help until it's too late. It would be hard to live with myself if that happened.

[SGT5711]

Most of the time, it is best to be a good observer and witness unless the bad guy(s) force the issue and then you must act. Always a good idea to constantly think about different scenarios you could face and mentally rehearse how you would respond in these instances.

[SlowBurn]

Of course it depends on the exact situation and on your ability, confidence etc. Personally my skills are mediocre at best, but I've told myself if I get caught inside during an armed robbery and nobody more capable is around, and If I get a clear shot, I'll take it.

An armed robbery with deadly weapons is genuinely life threatening. Robbers waive their weapons, pointing them at people excitedly, yelling bullying, threatening and otherwise creating chaos. There is too much risk of getting seriously hurt or killed if nothing is done, and IMO it's worth the risk to aggressively stop it if I get a good chance.

Take the offensive to protect myself and maybe others too. The legal consequences are for later and aren't always as bad as we fear.

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/crime/article/DA-No-charges-to-be-filed-in-Pa-store-shooting-4956375.php

[muggsy]

Pull a gun on me, expect to get shot. Situational awareness is key.

[Barth]

These situations are always a “gut check”.
Robbers have shot unarmed folks that comply.
Sometimes everyone is executed.
Sometimes the robbery completes without anyone being harmed.
IMHO - it’s always a case by case, follow your instincts, event.

As far as accidentally hitting an innocent bystander while legally defending yourself?
I believe generally you are not criminally liable.
Unless some negligence on your part can be demonstrated.
Naturally civil court plays by different rules.

Full Disclosure.
I’m not an attorney. But did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

[ripley16]

Having been in this situation several times, I can verify that no instance is the same. Holdup criminals behave and act in a wide variety of ways. If no direct threats or violence were used, I would not intervene. No amount of money is worth the potential harm to people. If violence is inflicted, then the equation changes. In that case it becomes the people being protected, not the money.

[tv_racin_fan]

Some time back there was a robbery at a Waffle House where an armed citizen shot and killed one or two of the robbers. My family had a little discussion and we decided that we watch to see how it is going down. IF there is any indication that they intend to shoot people we go into action, if not they can take the money and leave and we observe and get a good description. I believe in that event the robbers had started trying to move the employees into the back. We decided that was the time to begin to act.

Local grocer has been robbed a time or two, they have a guard on duty. Well I spoke to the guard on duty a time or two, being polite and all.. once asked him what he was carrying and when he replied a 9mm I said "cool, so am I".. an assitant manager just happened to be following me at the time and he asked what exactly I was carrying and remarked that he liked Kahr handguns. Not long after that an employee lured the guard into the back where some compatriats were and they took the guards handgun and shot him in the head with it... Not a bad idea to have a guard but in my opinion he should be disguised as a regular employee and only the boss know that he is a "guard" and I would prefer having more than one in the store at all times as well.

[xsailer]

These situations are always a “gut check”.
Robbers have shot unarmed folks that comply.
Sometimes everyone is executed.
Sometimes the robbery completes without anyone being harmed.
IMHO - it’s always a case by case, follow your instincts, event.

As far as accidentally hitting an innocent bystander while legally defending yourself?
I believe generally you are not criminally liable.
Unless some negligence on your part can be demonstrated.
Naturally civil court plays by different rules.

Full Disclosure.
I’m not an attorney. But did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

Barth,
I would bet that most inexperienced CC Newbies like myself could in a court of law, by a moneymaking lawyer, hired by a fellow customer that was shot either by me or the damn bad guy, find me guilty of something. Not being a smart a** just living reality. I would still do what I thought necessary though as far as action.......I trust.

[JohnR]

Never trust an armed criminal not to shoot you. In most states you are 100% legally justified to use deadly force to stop them.

I would generally stay out of the way, but if I had a clear shot from cover my plan is to take it.

[garyb]

Tough call. Too many possibilities at play. Hard to know what I'd do, depending on the opportunity that presented to defend myself. One wrong move and you might be dead and cause the death of everyone else. On the other hand, one right move and you might save lives and if I had a clear shot, I'd take it too. I would not want to be in that situation, but it would be the only way to answer that question for that specific situation....you'd need to be in it to decide and hopefully decide correctly.

I agree with xsailer, in that there is a difference between being criminally liable vs simply liable for your actions. You don't need to be considered a criminal to be liable.

[Popeye]

If no actual harm was being done to anyone I'd leave it holstered. Far be it from me to escalate an already tense situation into a violent situation, where people could get killed because of my thoughtless actions. Now if people were being shot that's a game changer and of course I'd draw and use my weapon to the best of my ability. If it's only about a store losing money in a robbery then that's there problem. If they were all that worried about being robbed they should have had there own damn gun.
Good intentions often don't go unpunished, and when your talking about bullets flying around, that punishment can be a very steep price to pay, and if your married everyone must pay in one form or another for a very long time. My pistol stays where it is till all somewhat rational thinking and sanity ends.

[Glock23]

Assuming an otherwise level playing field (i.e., not drastically outnumbered), if given the opportunity to draw my gun unnoticed and take a clear shot, I would take the shot.

1. There is no way of knowing if their intent is to harm anyone. That decision may be made suddenly, and you may be the first to catch a bullet.

2. Just because they may walk out the door without harming anyone doesn't mean they won't make that progression in a future robbery.

[garyb]

[QUOTE=Glock23;272043]Assuming an otherwise level playing field (i.e., not drastically outnumbered), if given the opportunity to draw my gun unnoticed and take a clear shot, I would take the shot.

1. There is no way of knowing if their intent is to harm anyone. That decision may be made suddenly, and you may be the first to catch a bullet.

I agree with Glock23. It is no longer about money, so let's set the money issue aside. This is about guns pointed at you and others. I say why wait until they start touching them off? Having a gun pointed at you is not rational thinking and sanity Popeye.... And it is not a thoughtless action to defend yourself if possible. If your lying on your belly, how will you know when the rational thinking and sanity ends? That first bullet may be in you or your wife. You can lay there like one of the sheep and live or die, or fight back and live or die....if you have the opportunity. But I do understand what you are saying because this scenario could go either way...it is a fine line.

I hate these abstract scenarios. They only serve to create more conflict.

[Barth]

Barth,
I would bet that most inexperienced CC Newbies like myself could in a court of law, by a moneymaking lawyer, hired by a fellow customer that was shot either by me or the damn bad guy, find me guilty of something. Not being a smart a** just living reality. I would still do what I thought necessary though as far as action.......I trust.

Isn't that the case anytime, anywhere, about anything?
I've got nothing but contempt for the courts.
IMHO the result of a trial often has little to do with guilt or innocence.
Generally the best lawyer wins.
I really believe that jury selection is more important than evidence relating to the outcome.
but, I digress...

I'm speaking about Immunity Statues that many states have concerning justifiable homicide in the act of self defense.

Example:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/10/south-carolina-father-wins-self-defense-immunity-in-shooting-of-bystander/
A: Father’s Use of Force WAS Lawful Self-Defense; Ergo Immunity Attaches

The Judge’s finding of immunity clearly reflects that he found this evidence supported, by at least a preponderance of the evidence, the reasonableness of Mr. Scott’s conduct under the circumstances and knowing what Scott knew of those circumstances at the time. Indeed, in his ruling the Judge finds that “When the defendant fired the shot, he reasonably believed he was being attacked with deadly force directed at his home.”

The State SC Stand Your Ground Timeline

Once the five elements of the law of self-defense have been found in Mr. Scott’s favor,
his use of force was lawfully justified,
and the responsibility for the loss of life of a purported innocent bystander
is properly placed at the feet of the initial aggressors of the conflict,
and not upon the person who lawfully defended himself against their aggression.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Detailed Information:
http://lawofselfdefense.com/statute/fl-776-032%E2%80%83immunity-from-criminal-prosecution-and-civil-action-for-justifiable-use-of-force/
Florida Statutes (Fla. Stat.)

Title XLVI. Crimes.

Chapter 776: JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

[berettabone]

We have had 2 instances like these in my area, in the past few months. One was a grocery store, where 2 @%$&*^ came in with a shotgun and tried to rob the place. A bystander standing in line, shot one in the head and arm with a Steyer 9mm, and the other ran. He survived and no one else was injured. But the guy is still trying to get his weapon back, even though he wasn't prosecuted. The other situation was a tavern. Again, 2 guys, shotgun and handgun trying to rob the place. Lot's of patrons in the store. The owner pulled a revolver from behind the bar, shot and killed one, and wounded the other as he was trying to exit. He wasn't prosecuted, and ended up being kind of a hero in the process, but is worried now, about the spread of gossip, hoping that no one tries again. A word of caution. The bystander in the first scenario got real lucky, in my opinion, because he did not have one in the chamber, and had to rack the slide, while he was standing in line. Luckily for him, in the confusion, and he said he did it as quietly as possible, he was able to ready his firearm without anyone hearing it. Lucky man. I have to go with Muggsy on this one. Pull a gun and point it at me or anyone else, expect to be shot..........multiple times.

[TheTman]

That's one that has so many possibilities, I can't really say for sure what I'd do. I'd probably do my best to find cover, and have my weapon ready, in case it escalated into a shooting affair, otherwise, if they just grab the money and run, I'd try and be a good witness, get a good description of the robber(s), and his vehicle and tag number if possible. If bullets start flying, I'd probably take a shot at the robber, if I got a good clear shot.

[garyb]

I saw a vid of a similar scenario in a coffee shop where people were working on their computers. 2 men came in to rob the place pointing guns. An old man got up with his 380auto and chased them down shooting them as the 2 men retreated out the door, falling along the way. The old guy kept a steady attack. The 2 guys could not get out quick enough and I believe they were shot in the process and captured on the street. Wish I had the vid to post, but someone may have seen it. He defended himself and was not one of the sheep.

[Bawanna]

I saw that but I don't recall it being a 380 and the one I saw he was a security officer. He did run after the, one ran thru a pane of glass or something similar. They couldn't leave fast enough and he was right after them.

I'm positive it was the same video.

[jocko]

kel tek 380 no doubt.

[berettabone]

I saw the video...................the guy had some Kahunas, and was relentless.........a bit stupid and underpowered? Maybe.

[jocko]

I gotta go with popeye. because I am carrying and in a restaurant where a robbery is goin down. I DO NOT HAVE TO GET involved.. iF AND ONLY IF THEY SRTARTED SHOOTING UP THE PLACE, THEN i WOULD FEEL more of a need to "MAYBE
' get invlolved but again I would analyze that situation alot before drawing my gun and firing and killing innocents in the turmoil. There is no guarraantee ur gonna hit ur target every time and the liability after that is just sumpin I don't want to think about. I am not sure there is a HERO rewsard or badge put on a person who shoots the bad guy but in the interim, shoots and kills innocents in the frukus. I know it sounds cold but I will protect ol jocko, I will protect ol jocko's family, but after that, everything changes.
I hope I never encounter this situation either. I don'[tneed to be a hero at my age,but mywiufe expects my ass home for supper every day. I stand a better chance of getting my ass blow away by her for being late for supper than in a holdup situation.

I always think of the scenario of one sitting in a restaurant and two guys come in with masks etc and hold up the place, and u don't know they are making a safety movie or anything and u just shoot the two BG?? guys who turned out to be movie actors.....

[jocko]

I saw the video...................the guy had some Kahunas, and was relentless.........a bit stupid and underpowered? Maybe.

agree:amflag:

[berettabone]

A bit more firepower, and a Kahr,...................I don't think they would have made it out...................

[Longitude Zero]

If it just a simple robbery and it progresses smoothly w/o any attempt upon the part of the robber to hurt anyone I will be a good witness and let it go down.

Once the first shot is fired, no matter at what I will return fire from cover is possible from out in the open if necessary. Most stop and rob holdups are one person deal.

HOWEVER there are armed takeover crews out there that hit banks and large potential financial reward victims. Once you are outside of the local bodega it is smart to believe that at every bank robbery, every grocery store robbery, every store robbery in a mall there are MULTIPLE offenders and many are hidden and will not act out unless the primary team comes under fire.

Seen it many times.

[Popeye]

I remember that video. It was .380 either p3at or LCP . The guy did have some stones but if I remember correctly took a few shots from inside and out the door onto the street as the BG's were fleeing. Could you just imagine if a group of innocents were walking down the street or a car/bus at the same time he's firing out the door.:eek: Could you also imagine the fun the lawyers would have if he shot one of them in the back retreating and the threat was over. When the threats stop you better stop because then it could become excessive force and possibly murder. Gun ownership is a serious matter and can be a slippery slope to walk on if you should ever have to use it. You better think of lawyer fees,time lost from work, or loss of job,and family, before you ever think of being some sort of hero when it's not absolutely positively last resort necessary. That's all I got...

[muggsy]

At your cervix. Here's the Video. The elderly gentleman bears a striking resemblance to me. Though not quite as handsome. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwrgvqlc8DA

[Bawanna]

That was a different one than I was thinking of but I've seen it too. I love that man. Wish he'd had a real gun. Them fine upstanding citizens were plumb in some hurry to be someplace else weren't they. I love it.

[jocko]

ur a very violent man colonel just ssyin

[b4uqzme]

I hate these abstract scenarios. They only serve to create more conflict.

Abstract it is....and one can never fully prepare because every situation is unique. But it's good to think it through to assure your head is in the right place....you just might need to take that shot.

[VN Vet]

Most of the time, it is best to be a good observer and witness unless the bad guy(s) force the issue and then you must act. Always a good idea to constantly think about different scenarios you could face and mentally rehearse how you would respond in these instances.


I agree with you SGT. First, be a good witness.

[h2ohhh]

I remember that video. Can't say I would have acted differently under the stress and adrenalin of the act but in hindsight he probably should have stopped shooting when those yahoos started heading out the door...the threat at that point was greatly reduced.

In my area there have been several armed robberies of churches. Guess the criminals think churchgoers are a bunch of pacifists. They'd be sadly mistaken in my church. The ushers (I am one), and a few LEO's who attend carry concealed weapons and the pastor has one too. We target shoot together and have security procedures in place for collection of the offering as well as other potential situations.

It's a sad but true state of affairs when folks have to worry about worshipping safely.

[getsome]

Amen Amen Shoot his a$$ again Amen Amen,....sing it one more time, all together now..:biggrin1:

[jocko]

u could make a song outta that getsome and that ugly ass lady gaga could sing it.Just sayin. They could play it on cuntry music channels every day.

[b4uqzme]

"...That was horrible... I've been singing this song now for twenty-five minutes. I could sing it for another twenty-five minutes. I'm not proud -- or tired. So wait 'till it comes around again and this time in four part harmony and feelin'. We're just waitin' for it to come around is what we're doing. All right now.

You can get anything you want..."

A Guthrie.

[getsome]

I'm going to hell for that one.......oh well...:cool:

[muggsy]

I remember that video. Can't say I would have acted differently under the stress and adrenalin of the act but in hindsight he probably should have stopped shooting when those yahoos started heading out the door...the threat at that point was greatly reduced.

In my area there have been several armed robberies of churches. Guess the criminals think churchgoers are a bunch of pacifists. They'd be sadly mistaken in my church. The ushers (I am one), and a few LEO's who attend carry concealed weapons and the pastor has one too. We target shoot together and have security procedures in place for collection of the offering as well as other potential situations.

It's a sad but true state of affairs when folks have to worry about worshipping safely.

You don't stop shootin' until they stop movin'. That's when the threat is reduced. If you stop shootin' they might start. I ain't givin no one wit a gun a second chance to shoot me.

[RevRay]

This was a very interesting thread guys ... thanks.

[olympicmotorcars]

Like many other decisions in life sometimes you have to just play it by ear, and assess the situation as you go. The general consensus seems to be to wait until things escalate to almost certain violence then you protect yourself.

"You pays your money and you takes your chances."

[Barth]

One point my martial arts master always made was;
"never let the bad guy(s) transport you anywhere".
Then they would have time and opportunity to do anything they want to you.
That's the point where you need to make your stand and fight for your life.

[Popeye]

You really don't have to look much farther that the post "Man charged with murder in Maryland" to see how the law works these days in some states.
I'm glad Penna. is a castle doctrine/stand your ground state.

[Allen]

This was a very interesting thread guys ... thanks.

My very thoughts. Really appreciate all the ideas, gives a person lots to keep on the mind. My biggest worry has always been, just when are things esculating to the point to start shooting. If the BGs are preoccupied with the employees that might be the time to act, not when they start looking my way. As some have stated, every case will be different and take a different approach but sure keeps the good guys thinking.

[Matthew L.]

I don't know what I would do until I was in that situation.

[Tinman507]

This subject really hit close to home last night.
My wife and I went food shopping after work. My firearm was in the lock box under my seat. I was lazy and decided not to get it out and put it on.
We went in, did our shopping and departed. Not 10 minutes after we got home and unloaded I heard that there was a robbery at the bank inside the store. The mutt HAD to have been there while we were. No weapon was brandished but he got the money nonetheless. The checkout we used was directly across from the bank kiosk.

I don't know exactly what i would do. I suppose I would have observed what was happening and decide on circumstances, but i can tell you one thing for certain: If it's in the car, it didn't matter what circumstances were, I'd have been screwed. Never Again......

[b4uqzme]

I don't know what I would do until I was in that situation.

Exactly. But we won't be thinking clearly when it all happens so it's good to rehearse. Our instincts and reactions will take over. That's what we endeavor to train. Training is as much mental as it is physical. Be prepared.

[b4uqzme]

This subject really hit close to home last night.
My wife and I went food shopping after work. My firearm was in the lock box under my seat. I was lazy and decided not to get it out and put it on.
We went in, did our shopping and departed. Not 10 minutes after we got home and unloaded I heard that there was a robbery at the bank inside the store. The mutt HAD to have been there while we were. No weapon was brandished but he got the money nonetheless. The checkout we used was directly across from the bank kiosk.

I don't know exactly what i would do. I suppose I would have observed what was happening and decide on circumstances, but i can tell you one thing for certain: If it's in the car, it didn't matter what circumstances were, I'd have been screwed. Never Again......

I'm thankful you were lucky. And a great reminder.

[jocko]

You really don't have to look much farther that the post "Man charged with murder in Maryland" to see how the law works these days in some states.
I'm glad Penna. is a castle doctrine/stand your ground state.

again Popeye, Florida has a stand ur ground lawto and look at Zimmerman and the hell he went through. Sometimes u can be right and still lose. For meanyways aslong as no violence starts I could easily sit back and view the entiere holdup and be a good witness. Wife gets pissed if I am not home forsupper on time and she would not except my excuse of shooting someonein a holdup and being afokking hero and beingaskedto beatthe White House so OVOMIT could pin a medal on me andthen take me to the back room and introduce meto Monica. I'm tellin ya she would not buy that story.Just sayin

[berettabone]

again Popeye, Florida has a stand ur ground lawto and look at Zimmerman and the hell he went through. Sometimes u can be right and still lose. For meanyways aslong as no violence starts I could easily sit back and view the entiere holdup and be a good witness. Wife gets pissed if I am not home forsupper on time and she would not except my excuse of shooting someonein a holdup and being afokking hero and beingaskedto beatthe White House so OVOMIT could pin a medal on me andthen take me to the back room and introduce meto Monica. I'm tellin ya she would not buy that story.Just sayin
First off, we know that you wouldn't accept an award from Ovomit, because, in all honesty, I don't think I would either..............probably tell him to pin it where he meets the golf cart seat. But, you would have the opportunity to meet Lew Lew, and let her load and shoot your gun, if you know what I mean...............just sayin......................

[Allen]

This subject really hit close to home last night.
My wife and I went food shopping after work. My firearm was in the lock box under my seat. I was lazy and decided not to get it out and put it on.
We went in, did our shopping and departed. Not 10 minutes after we got home and unloaded I heard that there was a robbery at the bank inside the store. The mutt HAD to have been there while we were. No weapon was brandished but he got the money nonetheless. The checkout we used was directly across from the bank kiosk.

I don't know exactly what i would do. I suppose I would have observed what was happening and decide on circumstances, but i can tell you one thing for certain: If it's in the car, it didn't matter what circumstances were, I'd have been screwed. Never Again......

My brother was in almost that same situation several years ago at a grocery store in Kansas when a robber cleaned out the cash register in the check out lane next to him and made it out the door. I asked him if he had his .380 with him-he didn't. I asked him what he would have done if he'd had it - he said he had no idea and it was real scary for a while. Don't remember if a weapon was ever actually visible.

After reading all the above discussions it sounds like what could happen after a shooting would be almost as frightening as the robbery scenerio itself. And more than likely none of the witnesses would come to your aid in case you were sued or tried in court for your actions protecting them.

[Kinetic]

I don't live in a 'right to carry' area so I don't have a choice. Criminals here seem to have more rights than the lawful.