What part of range safety don't you understand?

[sharpenit]

At the indoor range last night, I'm two bays away from a dad and three sons, aged something like 6 to 9. They're shooting pistols and .22 rifle. At one point, I step out of my bay and look over and dad has a pistol lying on a table and instead of being pointed downrange, it is pointed right at me. The .22 rifle is lying on an adjacent table and instead of being pointed downrange, it is pointed the opposite direction -- right at one of his sons who is sitting on a chair watching his family members shoot.

DUH!

I usually speak to such nitwits myself, reminding them that firearms are always to be pointed downrange, but this time, I got a range employee, who explained this fundamental safety rule to nitwit dad.

I hope nitwit dad learned something.

[garyb]

I hate to see things like that. The range officer was not doing his job. If there was not a range officer, the range owners were not doing their job. I would not shoot at an establishment like that. I prefer to shoot at well controlled NRA sanctioned ranges in competition (IDPA), or private clubs where I can train alone or with my trainer without others distracting me. I don't really enjoy indoor shooting, but that's just me. I've never seen an indoor range that did not have a safety officer watching every movement.

[Barth]

+1 on delinquent range officer.
You really shouldn't have to deal with irresponsible and dangerous shooters.

I do feel that some level of basic gun safety training should be required for gun ownership.

[garyb]

Agreed and many states are doing that. I support safety training too. But some guys feel this is unconstitutional and against our gun rights. It's the fear of more gun control...so I understand the fear against anymore gun laws. However, safety first.

[chrish]

gary, i'm one of 'those guys' haha. don't want (or see the point in) the additional regulation. government required training will, imo, do very little (nothing) to stop stupidity or lack of attention. we are all trained by the government to drive cars and well...you know.


most private ranges already have some kind of safety training required and there are still violations going on regularly.


but I agree w/ you guys that its an issue at the range, particularly public ranges. it just has to be nipped in the bud as soon as you see it. fear of confrontation has to be removed from your mind and just do it. I think the OP did the right thing mentioning it to the staff. The more they know crap is going on, the more likely they are to implement something or keep a better watch themselves. I'm sure they don't want an incident.


My private range runs required range safety training up front before you can shoot there and every member on the line is considered a range officer...but you can guess how well that goes over time, people bringing visitors, yadda yadda. my point there is, private range, required training, and still a safety violation from time to time. some people won't call-out their friends and family when visiting, avoid the confrontation for whatever reason. is what it is. all we can do is keep up the reminders and reinforcement when we see it.


I personally will not visit a public range that does not require some up front safety training. too many goof-balls their with their first gun, laughing, cutting up, acting like morons. But required training by a range vs some government regulated buying requirement isn't something I'd be willing to back, personally.

[Bawanna]

I prefer gravel pits with no people, no range monarchs or people watching my every move. I of course am also completely opposed to any required firearm training in order to own guns. There should be training available but it's up to the individual to take the class, not the government to require it.
I compare it to a new law her in Washington that you have to have a boater safety card to drive your boat no matter what size. I was old enough that I didn't have too but now I understand that everyone has to take it.
It's easy, do it on line, square peg in square hole type test but still send money. I been driving my 14' little aluminum boat a long time, don't need no boater safety card.

My transportation mode usually dictates that I go to an indoor range. They watch but they don't bother over every little minute detail.

If a range requires a class or safety orientation, I'm out of there.

We have a couple nice outdoor rifle ranges, nice facilities but with range officers that have ego's the size of Nebraska. I won't even go there anymore. Their mission is to find you doing something wrong, no matter how trivial.
Hard to focus on shooting and having a good time when you got a storm trooper critiquing every move you make.

[jocko]

for once ur right. I love gravel pits....
I would think u 1911 guys would love um to asu can just dig in the back drop sand about 1 inch and pullthe unhyarmed bullets and load again,and again and again. Just sayin

[berettabone]

I don't have the luxury of a gravel pit, but at the gun club, you would have at least 5 or six people immediately explaining to you, what you were doing wrong, in a not so nice way...............................

[jocko]

ever think about just lookin them in the eye and sayi9ng. 'FOKK OFF PR!ck"..

[Bawanna]

I'm sure I've told the story about the range officer, myself, and my Thompson Contender in 30-30 before. Anyone not heard that?

[Bawanna]

ever think about just lookin them in the eye and sayi9ng. 'FOKK OFF PR!ck"..

More than once as I was loading up my gear. Not near enough shooting ranges around anymore. If you find one you get along with you best take good care of them. I have to drive close to an hour to the indoor range I use. They are decent, not overbearing. They seem to be doing better again, the pro shop has a real decent inventory.

Wish it wasn't so far away and ammo was normal again. No problem with my beloved 45's since I reuse the bullets like jocko says but even the 22 is a cherished commodity these days.

[jocko]

I have also found that if u fart or stick some smelly sh!tin ur pants or even sh!tin ur pants they will not lotter around long either. What ever works best. I have alot of sheep sh!t.
around my property, so I just stuff some of that in my pockets. Actually can't remember when anyone has ever stuck around my booth to long either

[garyb]

I'm sure I've told the story about the range officer, myself, and my Thompson Contender in 30-30 before. Anyone not heard that?

I'll bite. I ain't heard it Bawanna

[garyb]

I could not imagine giving a youth a gun, or even a newbie adult, without safety training. I would not hunt with anyone that did not have hunters safety training. Two different things , but both equally important in my opinion. I see no infringement...only safety. I appreciate and share some of the same anti gun paranoia that all gun owners share, but safety training or even gun handling skill training are essential. Some morons actually learn. To say morons will remain morons is like saying these kids will never learn anyway...so close the schools and give the money to the politicians. Makes no sense. It is only because it temporarily restricts legal gun ownership, that seems to be the issue against safety / gun handling training. Most states have not allowed hunting without hunter ed. No big deal and no different. You can still purchase, so not an infringement of our right....even if we are guarded (rightfully so).

[getsome]

Was at a range last year with my son and someone walked up behind me and tapped me on my shoulder just as I touched off a round....I turned around and saw 2 very nice looking Japanese young ladies standing there holding a rented Glock 19 magazine they were having trouble loading....Always glad to help out a new female shooter I looked at the magazine and it had a stuck round loaded they couldn't get out....

It was loaded backwards!!!, bullet end facing the rear of the mag....My son got the round out and showed them how to properly load the thing then we promptly loaded up and left....I won't go back there because not only do they not have a safety officer they will rent anybody anything they want, no questions asked and don't even ask if they have ever shot a gun before or show them how to use it safely.....:eek:

[Bawanna]

I'll bite. I ain't heard it Bawanna

I'll try to be brief.

I have a 30-30 Contender. I took it to one of the outdoor public ranges to shoot it. Depending on which elbow is running the booth they sometimes have me shoot on the rifle range, sometimes the pistol range. So I always tell them what I have and ask where to go.
This time he says pistol range. Says there's a range officer up there and one other member.
Off I go.

I get up there and there's a member in their little cordoned off area, a guy with his son, and a fat bald headed drill sgt type that I've dealt with in the past.
So I acknowledge their presence and lay my gear out on the bench.
Mr. Drill Sgt tells me to go ahead down and hand a target. So I according to the rules walk over to flip a switch that activates an obnoxious bell and flashing lights. Before I get there he tells me don't flip that switch, I'm sick of hearing it, just go down, I'll watch for you.
I confirmed that he was sure that's what he wanted me to do and hustled down to hang my target.
I come back and I notice they are BSing and Mr. Drill Sgt doesn't have his ear muffs on.
He finally hollers down and ask if I'm gonna shoot or what? So I informed him I had a large caliber gun and noticed he didn't have his muffs on and didn't want to damage his hearing. His response was hell my ears have been burned so many times don't worry about it, just go on........

Well I wanted to but I'm just not gonna do it, this Contender is louder than hell and especially so under cover in this enclosed area. So I notice that he's finishing up his conversation and started my way, he has to pass me to get to the exit baffle and out.

So I real slow like grab a 30-30 case by the rim and hold it up to load so I'm sure he can see it. I note he starts to pick up his pace considerable. Right before he gets to me I drop it in the chamber and close the action, at this point he broke into a full out run or as close to a full out run as a 300 pound drill sgt can accomplish. I aim down range, but I'm watching him and as soon as he bounced off the end wall and pushed himself around the corner I let if off. Dust flew out of the ceiling, I think the members kid actually swore.
Mr. Drill Sgt pokes his head around the corner and says you almost got me you little bastard! Semi joking, semi serious. I explained to him that I had him anytime I wanted, it was only cause I was such a nice guy that he's able to hear at all and no charge for the exercise of the 30ft dash he just completed.

Member and his son come down right off and wanted to know what kind of canon I just shot. Both father and son ended up shooting it, the son with a lot of support and supervision of course.

I like to think I gave Mr. Drill Sgt a nice lesson that day but I heard not much changed. That was 20 years ago. I recently looked into going back figuring things might have improved but alas I was told it was exactly the same.

I still chuckle about it to this day.

[garyb]

Good one. I can almost see it happening. Too funny.

[garyb]

Was at a range last year with my son and someone walked up behind me and tapped me on my shoulder just as I touched off a round....I turned around and saw 2 very nice looking Japanese young ladies standing there holding a rented Glock 19 magazine they were having trouble loading....Always glad to help out a new female shooter I looked at the magazine and it had a stuck round loaded they couldn't get out....

It was loaded backwards!!!, bullet end facing the rear of the mag....My son got the round out and showed them how to properly load the thing then we promptly loaded up and left....I won't go back there because not only do they not have a safety officer they will rent anybody anything they want, no questions asked and don't even ask if they have ever shot a gun before or show them how to use it safely.....:eek:

Exactly. Safety training is important. Look at what Bawanna did to that poor drill sgt. If he had only been safety trained...haha. LOL

[muggsy]

I have also found that if u fart or stick some smelly sh!tin ur pants or even sh!tin ur pants they will not lotter around long either. What ever works best. I have alot of sheep sh!t.
around my property, so I just stuff some of that in my pockets. Actually can't remember when anyone has ever stuck around my booth to long either

Becareful, Jocko. That post came very close to offending my delicate sensibilities. In the future please refer to sheep sh!t as poo.
Yer friend,
Muggsy

[Bawanna]

Range officers and safety training are a lot like government swings.
Some don't want to offend a person competence so they don't ask stuff like have you shot before. Like the gals in getsome's story. Who knows, maybe they are Olympic pistol champs and would be offended. In his case obviously they weren't and should have asked.
They should not have to be told to ask, or required too for that matter.

Others treat every soul they meet like they are the dumbest piece of crap wrapped in skin they ever met and want to show you how to hold your mouth, how to hold your hand, sight picture but mostly how to stoop and bow in their presence. Don't seem to be any in between.

Gun safety is not rocket science. It's common sense. Sadly a rare commodity and getting rarer by the minute.

[garyb]

"What seems like common sense to those whom have learned that sense, is ignorance to those whom are untrained in that common sense. "
Quoted by Abraham "garyb" Lincoln
There it is...safety education is important still.

[SlowBurn]

"What seems like common sense to those whom have learned that sense, is ignorance to those whom are untrained in that common sense. '
Quoted by Abraham garyb Lincoln
There it is...safety education is important still.

+1 At a very nice public range, with an officer around somewhere I noticed otherwise sensible appearing people at the firing line handling their guns when the range was "cold" and shooters were down range changing their targets. When I explained to them they quickly understood and put the guns down and got behind the safety line. Seems obvious but so do a lot of things after you know. I prefer a more tightly controlled range.

[b4uqzme]

Gun safety is not rocket science. It's common sense. Sadly a rare commodity and getting rarer by the minute.

+ a bajillion

What seems to be even more rare these days is awareness. People are so involved in themselves, their cell phones, their lives, etc. that they aren't even aware of situations where they should apply some common sense...or common courtesy for that matter.

[garyb]

+ a bajillion

What seems to be even more rare these days is awareness. People are so involved in themselves, their cell phones, their lives, etc. that they aren't even aware of situations where they should apply some common sense...or common courtesy for that matter.

Can't disagree about that. We agree about the common sense part. Still, you need gun safety training. We did not learn gun safety by osmosis. We got trained. That's the simple point. WE all agree that a lot of people don't have good common sense. These are the people who would not want gun safety training if it were not required AND will do stupid things. If it is required, they must take it...and people do learn from it. WE agree on the common sense part. It is only common sense to those who learned that common sense through the training. It still needs to be learned through training, whether it is voluntary or mandatory.

[tv_racin_fan]

The infringement is in the cost of this mandated training. Lets say it starts at $20. I could live with that but how long would that be good enough for the anti gun crowd? Now make the cost of that mandatory training $300 and tell me how that works for you.

Right now in some states the cost of the mandatory training and the permit to carry a handgun is $300 and more.

[garyb]

The infringement is in the cost of this mandated training. Lets say it starts at $20. I could live with that but how long would that be good enough for the anti gun crowd? Now make the cost of that mandatory training $300 and tell me how that works for you.

Right now in some states the cost of the mandatory training and the permit to carry a handgun is $300 and more.

Cost is a consideration for sure. I've got more than that in training, multiple State conceal carry permits, etc..., so I guess $300 isn't running me off, especially for good training. Have you looked at Front Sights prices?

[Bawanna]

The best way to assure that I won't do something is to say that it's mandatory. Even the violets here at work have learned that if they say a meeting is mandatory you can guarantee I will be someplace else that day.
When training becomes mandatory to carry a firearm I'll be going over to the other side.

Many think I'm already there.

[Barth]

Much of what we learn on our own stems from trial and error.
We burn or cut ourselves and then take more precautions.
But being shot and dead isn't something you come back from.

I really don't think all important aspects of gun safety are natural, obvious and self evident.

I continue to be an advocate for gun safety training.

[garyb]

I understand. I've got a younger brother that is like that. He makes everything a challenge for himself, bucks the system and struggles along rather than turning lemons into lemonade. On the other hand, I try to turn it around and make the best of the situation...in this case to learn. Then again I've always been a strong advocate of education and have jumped through all the mandatory requirements to get ahead. I was able to retire very young as a result. As for gun handling, I'm always ready to train and learn, mandatory or not. I guess we are all different that way. For me, thank God for training and most States smart enough to require training before putting guns in some folks hands. I believe it does help and so do the trainers.

[getsome]

I have always been careful with guns and taught my kids that guns can never be unloaded and to treat them as such but I have to say the one thing that drove home the point was I think either here or on the S&W forum I can't remember which but a guy who was very experienced in safe gun practices got complacent one day while cleaning his 1911 .45 and somehow shot himself in his upper inner thigh and the bullet traveled down his leg and exited his outer calf....

He posted pictures of the wound and continued to do so as it healed and MAN that really got to me big time...That was a VERY ugly wound and I think about that guy every time I pick up my guns and how even a split second of inattention can end up with a life changing or ending accident....Anybody else remember that guys post?

[Acasper708]

There's that guy that does u tube vids that shot himself like that.
He was practicing with a glock holster that had a thumb release.
He then switched over to his 1911 and instinctually went for the thumb release when drawing the 1911. He hit the safety and ended up shooting himself in the leg in the middle of the draw.
It still doesn't excuse the fact he had his finger on the trigger when drawing it.
I wouldn't put my finger on a single action trigger until it's pointed away from me.

But accidents happen.

As for the state requiring safety classes before owning a weapon. I completely support that!!

[jocko]

good thing it was only a 45 ,,, a 9mm would have killed him for sure. Just sayin

I remember 40+ years ago a partial friend and lateron a drug dealer, ...One night he wasin a tavern with a bunch of my buddies and he had a Jennings 380 in his pocket kand he reached in and BANG off it went. The bullet traveled down his leg towards the outter part of his leg, and stopped at his knee. It looked like a gian **** trail. He would not go to the hospital for he was on probation for sumpin and he was not supposed to have a firearm on him. to this day, he still walks with a limp.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[b4uqzme]

Much of what we learn on our own stems from trial and error.
We burn or cut ourselves and then take more precautions.
But being shot and dead isn't something you come back from.

I really don't think all important aspects of gun safety are natural, obvious and self evident.

I continue to be an advocate for gun safety training.

Unless I am misreading these posts, it appears we are all advocates for safety training. The question is about mandatory vs voluntary. Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

For the record, I am against mandatory...even for something as important as firearm safety training.

[getsome]

Even though Georgia doesn't require it I would support a law that required you to at least demonstrate you know how to load and unload your weapon and how to handle it in a safe way....I got no problem with that same as if a guy wants a drivers license for a tractor trailer I want him to be able to handle that thing safely and show the DOT officer he knows how to drive and back it up before they turn him loose on the highway....I see it the same, demonstrate that you can handle a deadly weapon correctly and safely....

[Bawanna]

Unless I am misreading these posts, it appears we are all advocates for safety training. The question is about mandatory vs voluntary. Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

For the record, I am against mandatory...even for something as important as firearm safety training.

Well that makes two of us anyhow. About the same odds we have in Federal Government.

[jocko]

I think that is why Indiana reciprocity is not honored by Ohio bcause we have no mandated training to get a ccw permit where as Ohio has some sort of mandatory training to get a ccw permit. Kind of a sh!tty excuse on Ohio's part but if I was Indiana, I wuld just tell Ohio, fokk u , then to we won't honor any ccw licensxe from Ohio, but as you know Indiana is one of the few states that just carte blanch honors any ccw states permit. Just sayin

[Barth]

Even though Georgia doesn't require it I would support a law that required you to at least demonstrate you know how to load and unload your weapon and how to handle it in a safe way....I got no problem with that same as if a guy wants a drivers license for a tractor trailer I want him to be able to handle that thing safely and show the DOT officer he knows how to drive and back it up before they turn him loose on the highway....I see it the same, demonstrate that you can handle a deadly weapon correctly and safely....

+1
Exactly.
I would include safe storage and transportation.
This is a deadly weapon we are talking about - not a jon boat.

[sharpenit]

I think that is why Indiana reciprocity is not honored by Ohio bcause we have no mandated training to get a ccw permit where as Ohio has some sort of mandatory training to get a ccw permit. Kind of a sh!tty excuse on Ohio's part but if I was Indiana, I wuld just tell Ohio, fokk u , then to we won't honor any ccw licensxe from Ohio, but as you know Indiana is one of the few states that just carte blanch honors any ccw states permit. Just sayin


You're right to be miffed. Especially considering how little "training" is required by Ohio's permit. Basically, you just have to show that you can load the pistol, point it in the right direction and pull the trigger. Then you're good to go.

But I am grateful that you Hoosiers DO accept our Ohio permits.

[b4uqzme]

+1
Exactly.
I would include safe storage and transportation.
This is a deadly weapon we are talking about - not a jon boat.

Just consider that any time you mandate anything, you quash someone else's freedom...even if it is for something you feel is important and worthwhile. Examples: there are people who think that mandated government healthcare is important and there are people who think that gun control is worth sacrificing other people's freedoms for...

And consider that any time you give your freedoms over to government, it rarely - if ever - turns out well.

Mandate, by definition, is the antithesis of freedom. I'm for freedom. Better to accept the serious responsibility that comes with gun ownership and let's be accountable for ourselves. Bravo OP for addressing the situation.

[jocko]

I guess IMO the second amendment never stated u had to quality to own a gun. Illinois has made the requirement for their ccw permit so strict kand costly and sh!tty, that I doubt very few will go through the B.S.. they designed it that way once the courst said you have to allow ccw permits, They didn't limit Illinois from making ur kiss their asses to do it.

[Barth]

Just consider that any time you mandate anything, you quash someone else's freedom...even if it is for something you feel is important and worthwhile. Examples: there are people who think that mandated government healthcare is important and there are people who think that gun control is worth sacrificing other people's freedoms for...

And consider that any time you give your freedoms over to government, it rarely - if ever - turns out well.

Mandate, by definition, is the antithesis of freedom. I'm for freedom. Better to accept the serious responsibility that comes with gun ownership and let's be accountable for ourselves. Bravo OP for addressing the situation.

I couldn't disagree more.
Requiring a drivers license for cars is a perfect analogy.
Is is mandated, regulated and enforced by government, and does work out well.
The thought of having untrained, uneducated drivers piloting two tons of steel is frightening.
The perceived freedom of one individual
shouldn't put life and limb of another at risk.

If an individual can't demonstrate the most basic knowledge of gun safety?
IMHO - They have no business owning a handgun.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness shouldn't put others at risk.
That's not my notion of Freedom.

[jocko]

I think that is totally different "analogy". IMO

IMO a drivers license is a state/government revenue cash cow. It still doesn't stop one from driving drunk, or reckless. CCW permits is a state cashcow IMO, If one looks at all the fokking regulations jus tto own a gun,let alone suck up to the ccw permit regulations that some state put down for IMO harrassment. hio has a training program. Indiana does not. I have no stats either way buyt i bet the peole on both sides of the border with different training procedures according to the state regs are no better than each utter.

In most states they require a motorcycle rider to pass a driving course, but damn near every rider I have seen who takes this test shows up on a fokking 125cc or 250cc bike, certainly not the real bike they intend to ride downt he highway 70 MPH. Whenthey can prove tome thatobtaining a permit like Indiana allows is dangerous to the civilian population due to no training etc, then I will listen. I would ventrue to say that most all people who apply for a ccw permit are people who have been around guns ALOT. They know how to shoot, becuase I can't hit jack sh!it with my kahr should not eliminate me from owning a gun to protect myself...

I have always felt that this permitting bull sh!t was harrassement to the legal law abiding person, as u know the BG willnever apply for a permit and ganster style shooting is not the norm in the real world.
Not aruging with u directly Barth, as we all have an opinion, When u have anti fun politicians in any state the lws for ccw are gonna be geared to NOT allowng u to carry withut some type of real and maybe costly harrassment. Would one have ever thought that Indianas would have had our CASTLEDOCTRINE law had it not been for a overlyfriendly 2nd amendment legislature.:amflag:

[b4uqzme]

Thanks for opening that door Barth. The states' position on driving is that driving is a privilege...not a right. Is that where you want gun ownership to go? How about the rest of our Bill of Rights? That's a very slippery slope. Make no mistake. I agree that firearm safety is essential.

[b4uqzme]

I think that is totally different "analogy". IMO

IMO a drivers license is a state/government revenue cash cow. It still doesn't stop one from driving drunk, or reckless. CCW permits is a state cashcow IMO, If one looks at all the fokking regulations jus tto own a gun,let alone suck up to the ccw permit regulations that some state put down for IMO harrassment. hio has a training program. Indiana does not. I have no stats either way buyt i bet the peole on both sides of the border with different training procedures according to the state regs are no better than each utter.

In most states they require a motorcycle rider to pass a driving course, but damn near every rider I have seen who takes this test shows up on a fokking 125cc or 250cc bike, certainly not the real bike they intend to ride downt he highway 70 MPH. Whenthey can prove tome thatobtaining a permit like Indiana allows is dangerous to the civilian population due to no training etc, then I will listen. I would ventrue to say that most all people who apply for a ccw permit are people who have been around guns ALOT. They know how to shoot, becuase I can't hit jack sh!it with my kahr should not eliminate me from owning a gun to protect myself...

I have always felt that this permitting bull sh!t was harrassement to the legal law abiding person, as u know the BG willnever apply for a permit and ganster style shooting is not the norm in the real world.
Not aruging with u directly Barth, as we all have an opinion, When u have anti fun politicians in any state the lws for ccw are gonna be geared to NOT allowng u to carry withut some type of real and maybe costly harrassment. Would one have ever thought that Indianas would have had our CASTLEDOCTRINE law had it not been for a overlyfriendly 2nd amendment legislature.:amflag:

I just hope Jack Sh!it never jumps you in an alley. You'd miss him. :rolleyes:

Thanks for your support. This is about the most important issue we've addressed here. It's critical we think it through.

[Barth]

I think that is totally different "analogy". IMO

IMO a drivers license is a state/government revenue cash cow. It still doesn't stop one from driving drunk, or reckless. CCW permits is a state cashcow IMO, If one looks at all the fokking regulations jus tto own a gun,let alone suck up to the ccw permit regulations that some state put down for IMO harrassment. hio has a training program. Indiana does not. I have no stats either way buyt i bet the peole on both sides of the border with different training procedures according to the state regs are no better than each utter.

In most states they require a motorcycle rider to pass a driving course, but damn near every rider I have seen who takes this test shows up on a fokking 125cc or 250cc bike, certainly not the real bike they intend to ride downt he highway 70 MPH. Whenthey can prove tome thatobtaining a permit like Indiana allows is dangerous to the civilian population due to no training etc, then I will listen. I would ventrue to say that most all people who apply for a ccw permit are people who have been around guns ALOT. They know how to shoot, becuase I can't hit jack sh!it with my kahr should not eliminate me from owning a gun to protect myself...

I have always felt that this permitting bull sh!t was harrassement to the legal law abiding person, as u know the BG willnever apply for a permit and ganster style shooting is not the norm in the real world.
Not aruging with u directly Barth, as we all have an opinion, When u have anti fun politicians in any state the lws for ccw are gonna be geared to NOT allowng u to carry withut some type of real and maybe costly harrassment. Would one have ever thought that Indianas would have had our CASTLEDOCTRINE law had it not been for a overlyfriendly 2nd amendment legislature.:amflag:

Requiring a demonstration of simple knowledge that you can safely operate something dangerous,
like a car or gun, before being allowed to own/use it just makes sense.
It creates a safer environment for folks own/operate these things.
For themselves and others.

Does that magically make everything safe? No
Does knowledge make these things safer for all of us? I say yes.

[b4uqzme]

That's not my notion of Freedom.

Diane Feinstein's notion of freedom is that everyone should be free to walk about in a world completely without guns. Is my point getting through yet?

[jocko]

not worth arguing over IMO. It is what it is. We can agree to disagree. To many fokking laws now. i just don't see the similarity of a drivers license and a ccw permit. They canb't regulate what is between my ears--course the fokkers are trying..

[jocko]

Requiring a demonstration of simple knowledge that you can safely operate something dangerous,
like a car or gun, before being allowed to own/use it just makes sense.
It creates a safer environment for folks own/operate these things.
For themselves and others.

Does that magically make everything safe? No
Does knowledge make these things safer for all of us? I say yes.

a lawn mower is dangerous for some. Or a damn chain saw.. LIfe is fullof dangers, but the biggest danger I see today is the fokking legislature people who think they can just keep passing assinine laws and it will take care of things..

[Barth]

Diane Feinstein's notion of freedom is that everyone should be free to walk about in a world completely without guns. Is my point getting through yet?

Not at all.
Not even close.

Jocko has it right.
We agree to disagree.

[b4uqzme]

There is nothing worth arguing about more...

[Tilos]

I'll try to be brief.

I have a 30-30 Contender. I took it to one of the outdoor public ranges to shoot it. Depending on which elbow is running the booth they sometimes have me shoot on the rifle range, sometimes the pistol range. So I always tell them what I have and ask where to go.
This time he says pistol range. Says there's a range officer up there and one other member.
Off I go.

I get up there and there's a member in their little cordoned off area, a guy with his son, and a fat bald headed drill sgt type that I've dealt with in the past.
So I acknowledge their presence and lay my gear out on the bench.
Mr. Drill Sgt tells me to go ahead down and hand a target. So I according to the rules walk over to flip a switch that activates an obnoxious bell and flashing lights. Before I get there he tells me don't flip that switch, I'm sick of hearing it, just go down, I'll watch for you.
I confirmed that he was sure that's what he wanted me to do and hustled down to hang my target.
I come back and I notice they are BSing and Mr. Drill Sgt doesn't have his ear muffs on.
He finally hollers down and ask if I'm gonna shoot or what? So I informed him I had a large caliber gun and noticed he didn't have his muffs on and didn't want to damage his hearing. His response was hell my ears have been burned so many times don't worry about it, just go on........

Well I wanted to but I'm just not gonna do it, this Contender is louder than hell and especially so under cover in this enclosed area. So I notice that he's finishing up his conversation and started my way, he has to pass me to get to the exit baffle and out.

So I real slow like grab a 30-30 case by the rim and hold it up to load so I'm sure he can see it. I note he starts to pick up his pace considerable. Right before he gets to me I drop it in the chamber and close the action, at this point he broke into a full out run or as close to a full out run as a 300 pound drill sgt can accomplish. I aim down range, but I'm watching him and as soon as he bounced off the end wall and pushed himself around the corner I let if off. Dust flew out of the ceiling, I think the members kid actually swore.
Mr. Drill Sgt pokes his head around the corner and says you almost got me you little bastard! Semi joking, semi serious. I explained to him that I had him anytime I wanted, it was only cause I was such a nice guy that he's able to hear at all and no charge for the exercise of the 30ft dash he just completed.

Member and his son come down right off and wanted to know what kind of canon I just shot. Both father and son ended up shooting it, the son with a lot of support and supervision of course.

I like to think I gave Mr. Drill Sgt a nice lesson that day but I heard not much changed. That was 20 years ago. I recently looked into going back figuring things might have improved but alas I was told it was exactly the same.

I still chuckle about it to this day.

I had similar things go down about everytime I showed up with my 30 Herret TC.
Except I was an officer of the club but most of the plinkers didn't know that.

I'd start to setup on a rifle bench and they'd tell me to go to the pistol line.
So I'd put a target out at 100 yards, climb up on the bench and get into a creedmore position.
I loaded that thing with W680 and it had a 3 foot fireball.
One time it was near dusk and after 2 shots, all the guys from the rifle line came over to the pistol line.
The noise of the 1st shot got their attention and the fireball of the 2nd got them walking my way to see what the hell I was shooting.
I'd offer to let anyone shoot it but never had any takers:p

[jocko]

Tilols: luv ur signature line. someone on this forum sent me a photo of a small barbecue shop in thesouth and on the sign it said, u won't find any Muslims eating here..

[Barth]

a lawn mower is dangerous for some. Or a damn chain saw.. LIfe is fullof dangers, but the biggest danger I see today is the fokking legislature people who think they can just keep passing assinine laws and it will take care of things..

The difference is risk to others.
If you F up with a mower or chain saw?
You F up yourself, generally not others.
Want to operate one with zero knowledge? Have at it.

But operation of cars and handguns,
without basic safety knowledge, poses a risk to others (i.e. me).

[Tinman507]

The analogy between firearms and cars is flawed. Yes both are dangerous, but only one is constitutionally mandated.

You need training and a license test to drive a car. The majority of Americans go through the hoops to do this. If the politicians decided tomorrow to adopt the German system where it takes years and thousands of dollars in training and driving classes, the majority of the American public would go berserk and throw the bums out.

Firearm owners are the minority. If we permit ANY sort of required training to carry a concealed firearm all it takes is the stroke of a pen to ramp up the regulations to something none of us could afford. We don't collectively have enough political clout to throw the bums out. They will effectively limit who can own and carry a firearm.

I think it's a great idea to voluntarily seek firearm training. I do not want to see mandated training. It's a slippery slope that doesn't end well for any of us.

[jocko]

More [people are killed by vehicle drivers than any utter means of death in this cuntry.
Sorry, I ain' t buy in into that..

[Barth]

More [people are killed by vehicle drivers than any utter means of death in this cuntry.
Sorry, I ain' t buy in into that..

And you truly believe the death rate would't rise
if driver education and licencing wasn't required? Really?

[jocko]

I didn't say that either, but I am not sure that you have a dimes worth of proof of any more danger of people in Indian getting a ccw permit with zero anything except the money to get it and age of 18 over Ohio or Illinois who has shooting requireents of some sort.

I really feel a drivers license is a priveldge where a gun ownership is a constitutional right. It was only until our money graqbing legislatures thought of a permit with a fee did this ccw sh!t ever get started. all education of some type is good, I won';t argue that, I will argue the mandatory part for some things.

I have lived here in Indiana and I have never read or seen of any person with a CCw permit doing anything that was later on deemed to be "lack of knowledge". and even at that one bad apple should not ruin the barrel either.

I gather u might like to have the government more in ur life. I certainly don't

[Barth]

The analogy between firearms and cars is flawed. Yes both are dangerous, but only one is constitutionally mandated.

You need training and a license test to drive a car. The majority of Americans go through the hoops to do this. If the politicians decided tomorrow to adopt the German system where it takes years and thousands of dollars in training and driving classes, the majority of the American public would go berserk and throw the bums out.

Firearm owners are the minority. If we permit ANY sort of required training to carry a concealed firearm all it takes is the stroke of a pen to ramp up the regulations to something none of us could afford. We don't collectively have enough political clout to throw the bums out. They will effectively limit who can own and carry a firearm.

I think it's a great idea to voluntarily seek firearm training. I do not want to see mandated training. It's a slippery slope that doesn't end well for any of us.

Cars didn't exist when the constitution was written.
I understand needing to draw the line on gun rights.
And the never ending attempt by some to slowly erode these rights.
But requiring a demonstration of simple gun safety knowledge before ownership just makes sense.
And doesn't have to be a stepping stone to further restrictions.

If you don't know the four basic rules of gun saftey?
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
You don't get to own a gun till you learn them.
Me living safe is part of me living free.

[Bawanna]

Everything is a stepping stone towards further restrictions.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[Tinman507]

We as the firearm owners need to be self policing. We need to insist anyone we shoot with or near or at our clubs and ranges get training. We need to promote the NRA and other firearms groups and promote the safe handling courses and youth safety programs. It needs to be us.

The second the government gets involved, you end up with Obamacare.

[b4uqzme]

Thanks everyone for indulging me. Especially Barth. I mean no offense.

To agree with Barth's argument means that one person's perceived safety is worth sacrificing everyone's Constitutional right. That is the very argument that the gun control advocates are making.

This discussion (to me at least) is no longer about safety but about our rights. We all agree that safety is good. I hope we also agree that more government is bad.

As a society we often go astray. Someone or some group sees something wrong or dangerous. So they try to fix said result by making everyone comply with their wishes. I prefer we address the cause.

In this example the result is poor, unsafe handling practices of some gun owners. Option A: create a law that requires safety education for all gun owners. That's the quick fix. Option B: address what is lacking in our society and our gun culture that breeds people with little respect for firearm safety. The cause. OP did that when he called the unsafe shooter out. Option B is extremely difficult but the better course in my opinionated opinion.

[Barth]

Everything is a stepping stone towards further restrictions.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

And you welcome someone that doesn't know the four basic rules of gun safety
to own a gun and come shoot next to you at the range?

[b4uqzme]

And you welcome someone that doesn't know the four basic rules of gun safety
to own a gun and come shoot next to you at the range?

Yes I do. I will be glad to help them to the best of my ability.

[jocko]

And you welcome someone that doesn't know the four basic rules of gun safety
to own a gun and come shoot next to you at the range?

bet Bawanna working in the LEO inviroment could tells ome real horror stories about piss poor gun safety that many officers show, AND THEY ARE SUPPOSABLE TRAINED . far beyond what any state regulated ccw course would ever have.:amflag:

U can't regulate stupidiity

[Barth]

Yes I do. I will be glad to help them to the best of my ability.

If you live long enough to help them - LOL.
It's better to deal with a potential accident before it happens.
After can be way too late.

The range I shoot at has bullet proof glass between the stations.
And there's bullet strikes everywhere...

[Barth]

bet Bawanna working in the LEO inviroment could tells ome real horror stories about piss poor gun safety that many officers show, AND THEY ARE SUPPOSABLE TRAINED . far beyond what any state regulated ccw course would ever have.:amflag:

U can't regulate stupidiity

But you can improve safety.
I'm sure if they were completely untrained, like the wild west, things would be worse.

[b4uqzme]

I'm alive to type this. :typing: But thanks for the well wishes. :)

[jocko]

If I was at a range where there was unsafeshooting practices where range officers were at,I would go to the range officer before I would confront the shooter himself.Let people in control take care of it.If they did nuttin, I would leave and never come back.

I bein a 165# 70 year oldc oger would certainly think twice about confronting an unsafge shooter who might be over 200 #and early30's. I am sure like road rage there is such a thing as range rage.

[Barth]

We as the firearm owners need to be self policing. We need to insist anyone we shoot with or near or at our clubs and ranges get training. We need to promote the NRA and other firearms groups and promote the safe handling courses and youth safety programs. It needs to be us.

The second the government gets involved, you end up with Obamacare.

The government got involved with concealed weapon permits.
And that worked out great.

I don't want just anyone owning and carrying concealed weapons.
And can't imaging how that could possibly be self policing.

Big Government = BAD.
No Government = BAD too.

[Barth]

If I was at a range where there was unsafeshooting practices where range officers were at,I would go to the range officer before I would confront the shooter himself.Let people in control take care of it.If they did nuttin, I would leave and never come back.

I bein a 165# 70 year oldc oger would certainly think twice about confronting an unsafge shooter who might be over 200 #and early30's. I am sure like road rage there is such a thing as range rage.

I couldn't agree more.
Although I'm built like a Navy Seal.
And am a 3rd degree Black Belt.
Anyone can pull a trigger.

One range officer I spoke with had to throw some folks out
that were clearly drunk.

Unbelievable...

[jocko]

no more comment from me,were just geting into the arguing stage and the next thing will be the colonel coming in and acting like our government and setting a rule and regulation whether we like it or not., because he thinks that is the safeway to end it.

[Barth]

Time for Thursday Night Football!

Be Safe Everybody!

[chrish]

Barth, have to disagree on the 'concealed permits turned out well' argument. It hasn't. Liberal/Progressive states have made it virtually impossible to get one and have prevented me from being able to visit and be armed. So, we pursue reciprocity. That will not turn out well either if you ask me. If the feds get involved, it'll be worse. Lowest common denominator will win and we'll all be issued permits like NY and CA, basically NOT.

The only FAIR solution is full compliance w/ the 2A in all 50 states. No infringement. No permits. No training. Period. Not gonna happen, I know, just my belief in how it should be.

As for the safety aspect and requiring some kind of training. I have to agree w/ the 'no way no how' position that folks like b4uqzme are articulating very well. Cars and guns are not the same thing and DLs do not prevent road rage, violence, and accidents w/ cars involved. As for lawn mowers and chainsaws, yes, those don't typically hurt other people when used inappropriately, but sometimes they do. Neither do guns, but sometimes they do.

But other things do if we want to REALLY run that analogy out.

Bow and arrow. Gonna get state run training to go do some archery w/ your kids now?

Fireworks, legal in plenty of states. you can burn your neighbors house down or mame a neighborhood child w/ them. So, do we all get training in those states where they are legal on safely operating fireworks?

Gas grill or deep fat fryers. Neighbor nearly burned his house down and the one next to it w/ a deep fryer a few thanksgivings back. Gas grill training?

Where does it end?

Smoking? I don't smoke, never have, never will. I don't want to smell it anywhere in public and we've solidly proven that second hand smoke is dangerous. So, all smokers need to be trained and also go thru some sensitivity training on respecting other peoples personal space?

No. No. No.

Sorry. I don't do football. So I didn't have anything else to do but respond...been out of touch since last night and had forum withdrawal :-)

[tv_racin_fan]

The issue is always about how much are YOU willing to be MANDATED to spend to get that MANDATED certificate of firearm safety.

Are you willing to travel to another state to get that certificate? Check Washington DC for that one, they have no range so they have no place to do the training and testing to get that certificate.

[Tinman507]

The government got involved with concealed weapon permits.
And that worked out great.

I don't want just anyone owning and carrying concealed weapons.
And can't imaging how that could possibly be self policing.

Big Government = BAD.
No Government = BAD too.

I'm not saying do away with permits. I think that DOES serve a useful purpose. It filters out folks who shouldn't have firearms from getting them legally.

My issue is with mandatory government run or sanctioned training. It's too easy to tweak it into a ridiculous exercise.

[Barth]

Barth, have to disagree on the 'concealed permits turned out well' argument. It hasn't.

Twenty plus years ago only a small portion of our population was allowed
to obtain a license to carry a concealed weapon.
The great state of Florida was one of the first.
The scope and nature of these permits have stayed constant for over two decades.
The price for obtaining one has always been reasonable.
And done nothing but drop over the years.
It’s been so clearly successful that something like 35 other states have followed Florida’s lead and adopted like laws.
In fact most honor Florida’s permits in their states as well.
I can literally drive from the Atlantic Ocean, and cross this great country,
all the way to the communist border of Kaliforina legally carrying my firearm.

Modern concealed carry laws work.
And you have always been free to move to a state that has them.
I did.

[Barth]

I'm not saying do away with permits. I think that DOES serve a useful purpose. It filters out folks who shouldn't have firearms from getting them legally.

My issue is with mandatory government run or sanctioned training. It's too easy to tweak it into a ridiculous exercise.

Florida permits have had government required sanctioned training for over twenty years.
It's remained essentially unchanged over that time.
And is anything but a ridiculous exercise.

[Tinman507]

Florida permits have had government required sanctioned training for over twenty years.
It's remained essentially unchanged over that time.
And is anything but a ridiculous exercise.

It's remained unchanged for 20 years because the folks who generate laws are mostly pro-carry. If that changed next year, you can't guarantee it won't change and become a ridiculous exercise.

[Barth]

It's remained unchanged for 20 years because the folks who generate laws are mostly pro-carry. If that changed next year, you can't guarantee it won't change and become a ridiculous exercise.

The only thing I can guarantee is death and taxes.
But I can demonstrate a positive twenty year trend.
And have no reason to believe that trend will change going forward.

No one knows what the future holds.
But in Florida the future looks bright to me.

[Tinman507]

You win.

http://yukaripeerless.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/White-Flag.jpg

[Barth]

You win.

I'm at work and blocked from your picture.
Of which I'm sure is a back handed response - LOL.

But as we say in Football - "A win is a win!"
So I'll take the W even if it's not heart felt.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would like to say that this forum seems to have better educated/informed members than many.
I really do respect most of your opinions - whether I agree with them or not.
And completely understand folks reservations with anything government
mandated and controlled.

I'm a huge advocate of as small a government as possible.
With the most freedom possible for the individual.
Particularly involving carrying and owning firearms for self defense.

[b4uqzme]

Sorry Barth. You are welcome to your opinion and that is part of my notion of freedom. But you do not win. After this I will let it rest. You are welcome to go on.

Chrish's point was that concealed carry laws are still an infringement because some states use them to create unreasonable hoops for good citizens to jump through. Indeed they are a good example of how some states will use any regulation to create barriers against gun ownership.

You debate that, compared to before, CCW permits are a success but you miss one important point. CCW permits are a move from almost no one being allowed to carry (too strict a law) to anyone who can meet the requirements can carry (a relaxed law). That's less regulation, more freedom for gun owners and that's good. The next move forward would be to eliminate carry restrictions altogether. We aren't holding our breath for that one.

Back to mandatory gun safety education. You advocate more regulation = less freedom for gun owners. History shows us that more regulation, even for good causes, typically backfires. We won't stand for that. If you need more explanation why...just re-read this post. Or most anything in our politics and rkba forums.

Thanks for the discussion. We'll let the other members make up their own minds. It's good to talk these through.

[Barth]

Sorry Barth. You are welcome to your opinion and that is part of my notion of freedom. But you do not win. After this I will let it rest. You are welcome to go on.

Chrish's point was that concealed carry laws are still an infringement because some states use them to create unreasonable hoops for good citizens to jump through. Indeed they are a good example of how some states will use any regulation to create barriers against gun ownership.


You are free to live in any state you want.
If you choose to live in a repressive state?
That choice is on you.



You debate that, compared to before, CCW permits are a success but you miss one important point. CCW permits are a move from almost no one being allowed to carry (too strict a law) to anyone who can meet the requirements can carry (a relaxed law). That's less regulation, more freedom for gun owners and that's good. The next move forward would be to eliminate carry restrictions altogether. We aren't holding our breath for that one.

I didn't miss one important point.
That is my point.



Back to mandatory gun safety education. You advocate more regulation = less freedom for gun owners. History shows us that more regulation, even for good causes, typically backfires. We won't stand for that. If you need more explanation why...just re-read this post. Or most anything in our politics and rkba forums.

Concealed carry laws haven’t backfired.
And have clearly been successful.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I absolutely win.
This isn't a contest.
It’s a sharing of information.
And in that context everyone wins!

[chrish]

Twenty plus years ago only a small portion of our population was allowed
to obtain a license to carry a concealed weapon.
The great state of Florida was one of the first.
The scope and nature of these permits have stayed constant for over two decades.
The price for obtaining one has always been reasonable.
And done nothing but drop over the years.
It’s been so clearly successful that something like 35 other states have followed Florida’s lead and adopted like laws.
In fact most honor Florida’s permits in their states as well.
I can literally drive from the Atlantic Ocean, and cross this great country,
all the way to the communist border of Kaliforina legally carrying my firearm.

Modern concealed carry laws work.
And you have always been free to move to a state that has them.
I did.

That's not entirely true. Shouldn't have happened in the first place. It's been a long hard battle from not allowed, to may issue, to shall issue fights. I shouldn't have to pay the government to carry a piece of my own private property. 20 years from now, we'll be saying the permit we have to get health care coverage from a doctor outside of our government approved single-payer provider is a good idea to keep costs down. Won't make it right, or constitutional.

But, you (being from Florida) cannot visit 15+ states (firearm in tow) by my count. Hard to count all those tiny little specs in the northeast. The entire west coast, most of the northeast, and great lakes area. My Virginia permit is a bit more limiting, I can't even GET to Florida w/o circling around. I want reciprocity, but not at the expense of having the feds involved.

But the point here was requiring safety training to even own a gun, much less carry it. I'm just not gonna agree. When they start charging you 'per barrel'...you are gonna wish you listened to me :D

[Barth]

That's not entirely true. Shouldn't have happened in the first place. It's been a long hard battle from not allowed, to may issue, to shall issue fights. I shouldn't have to pay the government to carry a piece of my own private property. 20 years from now, we'll be saying the permit we have to get health care coverage from a doctor outside of our government approved single-payer provider is a good idea to keep costs down. Won't make it right, or constitutional.



You’re paying a reasonable fee for administration, background checks and licensing.
It’s been in place for twenty years and works great.



But, you (being from Florida) cannot visit 15+ states (firearm in tow) by my count. Hard to count all those tiny little specs in the northeast. The entire west coast, most of the northeast, and great lakes area. My Virginia permit is a bit more limiting, I can't even GET to Florida w/o circling around. I want reciprocity, but not at the expense of having the feds involved.


If parts of the country demand I’m unarmed?
I’m fine with that and choose not to go there.



But the point here was requiring safety training to even own a gun, much less carry it. I'm just not gonna agree. When they start charging you 'per barrel'...you are gonna wish you listened to me :D

Having folks demonstrate they understand the four basic rules of gun safety prior to ownership just makes sense.
That’s the point where gun safety education needs to take place.
Not after someone gets shot.

It’s really that simple.

[berettabone]

Alright, I'll bite..................do I think you should be charged to carry your firearm? No. Do I think that there should be a mandatory safety class or other such exercise, before you can get a CCW license. No. BUT, in saying that, I see way too many people in my neck of the woods, who don't have a clue, as far as safely using or carrying a firearm. I feel that a better approach, is what I had to do to get my CCW license. This is not mandatory in my state. You have to do a qualifying shoot. Simple as that. Everyone there had to in a way, prove that they could safely handle that firearm. This is the way they handled the class, which was fine for me. Muzzle anyone, and you're gone. As far as the rest of the people who don't care to have a permit, and go to the ranges, it's a very slippery slope. As far as I am concerned, one screwup at the range, and you're gone. Make it known that any safety issue caused by you will result in your never coming back again. I really doubt, with the amount of shooters up here, that the business would lose any customers. But all of the ranges would need to put their heads together on this, to make all ranges safety conscious. Fools need not apply....................

[Bawanna]

I'm confused. You say it's not required but you have to do a qualifying shoot?

Can't be both.

Class's should be readily available and recommended, people renting guns at ranges should be screened, they usually are at the ones I frequent.
It's a private business, they can do what they want.

Mandatory. NOT!

[berettabone]

With this particular instructor, yes, but the state doesn't make this mandatory.........it's something that he does on his own..........and I like it. There are plenty of courses here where you don't have to do this, but I think it's a good idea. Everyone knows up front that this will be part of the class.

[Planedude]

Only nice thing about the Texas permit is it speeds up gun buying. Show your permit, no waiting for the background check, just pay-n-go.

Shouldn't have to show anything, but we have to close the old "gunshow loophole"... right?

[garyb]

Alright, I'll bite..................do I think you should be charged to carry your firearm? No. Do I think that there should be a mandatory safety class or other such exercise, before you can get a CCW license. No. BUT, in saying that, I see way too many people in my neck of the woods, who don't have a clue, as far as safely using or carrying a firearm. I feel that a better approach, is what I had to do to get my CCW license. This is not mandatory in my state. You have to do a qualifying shoot. Simple as that. Everyone there had to in a way, prove that they could safely handle that firearm. This is the way they handled the class, which was fine for me. Muzzle anyone, and you're gone. As far as the rest of the people who don't care to have a permit, and go to the ranges, it's a very slippery slope. As far as I am concerned, one screwup at the range, and you're gone. Make it known that any safety issue caused by you will result in your never coming back again. I really doubt, with the amount of shooters up here, that the business would lose any customers. But all of the ranges would need to put their heads together on this, to make all ranges safety conscious. Fools need not apply....................

Confusing and you contradict yourself. It is simple...just teach people how to handle a gun before they put one in their hands. Once they learn, they are good to go. Qualifying is a good idea. Demonstrate good gun handling and you're ready to own. Don't be wishy washy about it. Some guys want gun owners to be competent, but at the same time they don't want them to receive mandatory training. Another sign of being wishy washy. I say train. Education is good. Don't make it bad just because it is mandatory to be a safe gun owner. What's the deal? If more gun owners had training and learned something...demonstrated via competence qualifying, there would be fewer gun safety issues. Don't get wrapped up in "principle" that you don't like mandatory training....just because. Accept the benefits and teach people how to handle guns. It is to the gun owner's advantage.

[garyb]

We as the firearm owners need to be self policing. We need to insist anyone we shoot with or near or at our clubs and ranges get training. We need to promote the NRA and other firearms groups and promote the safe handling courses and youth safety programs. It needs to be us.

The second the government gets involved, you end up with Obamacare.


Such a truthful statement....and I agree. However, WE don't do that. You don't. I don't. Training is necessary. Mandatory. I don't care who requires it. Thinking about WHO requires it is silly. Just get it done.

[Bawanna]

This is almost as good as the watching the Democratic National Convention. No I didn't watch it but I heard it sucked really bad.

[garyb]

Barth, have to disagree on the 'concealed permits turned out well' argument. It hasn't. Liberal/Progressive states have made it virtually impossible to get one and have prevented me from being able to visit and be armed. So, we pursue reciprocity. That will not turn out well either if you ask me. If the feds get involved, it'll be worse. Lowest common denominator will win and we'll all be issued permits like NY and CA, basically NOT.

The only FAIR solution is full compliance w/ the 2A in all 50 states. No infringement. No permits. No training. Period. Not gonna happen, I know, just my belief in how it should be.

As for the safety aspect and requiring some kind of training. I have to agree w/ the 'no way no how' position that folks like b4uqzme are articulating very well. Cars and guns are not the same thing and DLs do not prevent road rage, violence, and accidents w/ cars involved. As for lawn mowers and chainsaws, yes, those don't typically hurt other people when used inappropriately, but sometimes they do. Neither do guns, but sometimes they do.

But other things do if we want to REALLY run that analogy out.

Bow and arrow. Gonna get state run training to go do some archery w/ your kids now?

Fireworks, legal in plenty of states. you can burn your neighbors house down or mame a neighborhood child w/ them. So, do we all get training in those states where they are legal on safely operating fireworks?

Gas grill or deep fat fryers. Neighbor nearly burned his house down and the one next to it w/ a deep fryer a few thanksgivings back. Gas grill training?

Where does it end?

Smoking? I don't smoke, never have, never will. I don't want to smell it anywhere in public and we've solidly proven that second hand smoke is dangerous. So, all smokers need to be trained and also go thru some sensitivity training on respecting other peoples personal space?

No. No. No.

Sorry. I don't do football. So I didn't have anything else to do but respond...been out of touch since last night and had forum withdrawal :-)


As a matter of fact...in most states, if you have not received special archery safety training, you can not hunt with a bow and arrow. Surpirses You? It is a fact. Go out west and try to bow hunt without archery safety certificate and you will drive home alone while your buddies hunt. You need training. Archery is a unique sport that requires special training. It is a fact. Nothing wrong with training.

[Bawanna]

Your really obsessed with this requires training thing huh?

A person can't learn how to shoot a bow proficiently, then go out and stalk an animal and stick it without required training?
We have hunter safety requirement, never heard anything specific about bow hunting.

I've done well with a bow in an earlier life and you guessed it, no training. Got some tips from experienced hunters on equipment but didn't spend a dime to pay somebody to tell me what to do and how to do it.

[garyb]

Your really obsessed with this requires training thing huh?

A person can't learn how to shoot a bow proficiently, then go out and stalk an animal and stick it without required training?
We have hunter safety requirement, never heard anything specific about bow hunting.

I've done well with a bow in an earlier life and you guessed it, no training. Got some tips from experienced hunters on equipment but didn't spend a dime to pay somebody to tell me what to do and how to do it.

I will keep it simple. Someone taught me how to shoot and hunt with the gun and bow. I will always remember that person(s) and I will always remember the classes that got me on the right track to gun safety and archery. It was my Dad and my next door neighbor who was my scout master. I remember and respect those people. It is a way of life in my area.

I am guessing that someone you respect, taught you how to shoot and hunt. Do you remember and acknowledge that person Bawanna? You did not learn on your own. Someone you respect taught you. There is always something to learn from others. Yet, I acknowledge that not everyone was as fortunate as you and I. Some folks do not have someone to teach them and must take a course and even pay for that course. I did not have to pay for it...and it sounds like you did not either. But someone you respect did teach you. Remember back Bawanna.

Training is essential. You would not put a gun in the hands of your son or grandson without training them. It is a treasured gift...even if we pay for it.

Who trained you Bawanna?

[jocko]

Iuess if u hunt or learntohunt with an older personu might consider that training. No one in my family hunted. I learnedby DOING. Made mistakes along the way buyt again that is growing up to. I bowhunted alot out west quite a few years back Firsttime I ever heard of having to have any archery training. Not doubting you but again would like to learn more of what sstates require this and at what age. Many people are grandfathered in due to age etc. I see nutting wrong with trining IF THAT IS WHAT U DESIRE. You can't train meto hunt, that is acqired with time in the woods, Damn hard IMO to even train a person to shoot a bow even, What do u hav eto do, put 6 arrow in a target at 15 yards or what??? Sure sounds screwey to me..

InIndianathere is a age break off where in order to get any hunting license you must have beenthrough a hunter educastion course. Set through one once with my son and it was more mickey mouse than anything else, but it cost him $35 at the time, and he never touched, smelled or seen a gun, bow. Just lectures and how boring ithat is for a 8-12 year old individual. I know his dad feel asleep.

[berettabone]

If I would have known it was so easy to confuse people, I would do it more often. All I said was, I don't think you should have to pay, to carry a firearm. I don't think that training should be mandatory per state regs, and I think it's a good idea to have a qualifier to get a CCW. If that confuses you, go back to the md, and get an increase on your...............nevermind.

[b4uqzme]

Ugh! You guys are killing me. We all agree that training is essential. What we're talking about is not being allowed to buy a gun until we can prove we bought our training from the government. Sheesh. I love you guys but sometimes.........

I promised not to argue this point anymore so I'll go back to biting my tongue.

Carry on.

[jocko]

Ugh! You guys are killing me. We all agree that training is essential. What we're talking about is not being allowed to buy a gun until we can prove we bought our training from the government. Sheesh. I love you guys but sometimes.........

I promised not to argue this point anymore so I'll go back to biting my tongue.

Carry on.

I bet that really hurts:behindsofa: How about just puttingf ur top lip and ur bottom lip together and save the fokking pain and blood:D I think there is a government course coming up soon on biting your tongue.

[garyb]

A lot of states now require bow hunter education certificates in order to purchase a license to hunt in that state. It is very common now. You can learn on your own through the school of hard knocks. Or you can learn from folks that know their stuff and escalate your proficiency.

For example, I was a self taught taxidermist. My work was OK for several years. Then, I hooked up with a 2 time world champion and State Champion from PA for 3 days. That guy sky rocketed my taxidermy like it was amazing. Training is good. Saying that it is not worth while or even necessary to be educated/trained is...please forgive me....ignorant at best. Education is important...almost mandatory. Notice I said "almost". You can skip it, but you won't reach your full potential without it.

Back to the point... Would you put a gun in the hands of your son or grandson without training that boy? Be honest. You would make it mandatory because you love him and rightfully so. It is a FACT! That is how much you respect safety training....you would make it mandatory.

[berettabone]

So, what we have, is, training is essential, but we don't want it to be mandatory. We get pissed when someone does something unsafe. I believe making a qualifier shoot to get a CCW license is a start, and like I said, booting everyone else's arse off the range that can't follow the correct procedures. If something isn't mandatory, a lot won't take the time to become proficient and safe with their firearm. It's a vicious circle.

[garyb]

Ugh! You guys are killing me. We all agree that training is essential. What we're talking about is not being allowed to buy a gun until we can prove we bought our training from the government. Sheesh. I love you guys but sometimes.........

I promised not to argue this point anymore so I'll go back to biting my tongue.

Carry on.

It is essential, but you should be allowed to buy a gun without it....Hmmmm. Where does it say to buy the training from the government? Just take an approved safety course. How hard is that to do? I'll bite my tongue now.

[garyb]

So, what we have, is, training is essential, but we don't want it to be mandatory. We get pissed when someone does something unsafe. I believe making a qualifier shoot to get a CCW license is a start, and like I said, booting everyone else's arse off the range that can't follow the correct procedures. If something isn't mandatory, a lot won't take the time to become proficient and safe with their firearm. It's a vicious circle.

There is some common sense from someone that is trained.

[getsome]

This is a very interesting thread and it seems that even within our diehard pro 2nd amendment pro gun group there is division on this subject and I have to admit I'm sorta on the bubble myself....I am upset that my state Georgia doubled the price of a CCW from 4 years age because they could and they saw an opportunity to raise even more money from us sucker taxpayers.....

I don't want to see the Government get involved in this and perhaps charge gun owners more than they can afford for a license and mandated training...My state has very lenient gun laws and is a must issue state but if the right Politician gets elected and wants to come down on gun owners then mandated license and training fees might be used to keep leigitimate gun owners from being able to afford a CCW....

I think it should be left to the FFL seller to train a new gun owner at least how to safely load, unload and take down and reassemble their new handgun...I don't think this should be mandated but IMHO any FFL worth his salt would be sure this was done before a new owner walks out their door...

[garyb]

Good thread. Let's not take things personal. We are just having a dialog about those who want to be trained vs those who do not.

[garyb]

This is a very interesting thread and it seems that even within our diehard pro 2nd amendment pro gun group there is division on this subject and I have to admit I'm sorta on the bubble myself....I am upset that my state Georgia doubled the price of a CCW from 4 years age because they could and they saw an opportunity to raise even more money from us sucker taxpayers.....

I don't want to see the Government get involved in this and perhaps charge gun owners more than they can afford for a license and mandated training...My state has very lenient gun laws and is a must issue state but if the right Politician gets elected and wants to come down on gun owners then mandated license and training fees might be used to keep leigitimate gun owners from being able to afford a CCW....

I think it should be left to the FFL seller to train a new gun owner at least how to safely load, unload and take down and reassemble their new handgun...I don't think this should be mandated but IMHO any FFL worth his salt would be sure this was done before a new owner walks out their door...

That is like having the fox guard the hen house. The FFL makes money on sales. I'd agree that most FFL's I met would want you to know your weapon, but not necessarily care if you were trained in gun safety. It is out of his spectrum of business. Trust me guys, I hate to see the Anti Gun movement take any advantage away from our freedoms. Training is a way to help us not hurt us. Sinking your head in the sand is not the answer. Ignorance is not the answer. Educate gun owners. Set the bar higher. That's what training is all about. Set a standard above what is required.

[chrish]

As a matter of fact...in most states, if you have not received special archery safety training, you can not hunt with a bow and arrow. Surpirses You? It is a fact. Go out west and try to bow hunt without archery safety certificate and you will drive home alone while your buddies hunt. You need training. Archery is a unique sport that requires special training. It is a fact. Nothing wrong with training.

You are kinda changing the equation there. Not that I will even agree w/ the change in direction. But you are talking about hunting now, which is an almost guaranteed discharge of a weapon (bow or firearm) by somebody, in a (typically) public area or private area where there are other people in the vicinity and no controls in place like there are at the range. And I don't have to go to hunter safety to go to a private archery range, or my private property, with my bow and arrow or my firearm. Hunter safety courses also involves more than how to safely use your weapon. It's course to get a permit to go onto public land to hunt and kill things.

Hunting is also not protected by the Constitution.

All that being said, if a private range wants to (and I think should) require training to use their facility, more power to 'em. That's the kind of range I belong to and would ONLY belong to.

The only place (in my opinion) that this debate holds ANY water is with being issued a CCW permit. And I still don't agree with it. Beyond the CCW permit debate...no way, no how though, is anyone gonna sell me on the idea that I need a government issued permit to own a firearm, go to a private range with a firearm, or be on my private property with a firearm. If somebody is gonna do something stupid, no amount of government training or printed paperwork with my name on it is going to prevent that.

I just don't want the government involved in this. At all.

This one just isn't gonna be decided here I'm afraid. Obviously a camp that sees government regulations as acceptable here and another group that doesn't.

[chrish]

Back to the point... Would you put a gun in the hands of your son or grandson without training that boy? Be honest. You would make it mandatory because you love him and rightfully so. It is a FACT! That is how much you respect safety training....you would make it mandatory.
No, obviously not, but do I want the government doing it? Requiring it? Hell no. Have you been out on the roads lately, people are EVERYWHERE that were trained by the government (public schools) and licensed by the state (DMV) to drive a vehicle. They failed miserably. Idiots abound everywhere on the road. Matter of fact, look at the numbers. You are way more likely to be killed by those trained fools, than some idiot at the range not practicing gun safety.

That's the whole point. Mandated training by the government will do nothing to stop the moron at the range, the moron carrying three shelves down the aisle from you in the grocery store, etc.

You (or somebody) asked who trained you...well, actually, nobody. I was taught to respect firearms, but once I got into it, I'm self taught. Safety, proficiency, etc. I understand not everybody is gonna do that, that's how the world is. And no amount of regulation and mandatory training is gonna change that.

[garyb]

You are kinda changing the equation there. Not that I will even agree w/ the change in direction. But you are talking about hunting now, which is an almost guaranteed discharge of a weapon (bow or firearm) by somebody, in a (typically) public area or private area where there are other people in the vicinity and no controls in place like there are at the range. And I don't have to go to hunter safety to go to a private archery range, or my private property, with my bow and arrow or my firearm. Hunter safety courses also involves more than how to safely use your weapon. It's course to get a permit to go onto public land to hunt and kill things.

Hunting is also not protected by the Constitution.

All that being said, if a private range wants to (and I think should) require training to use their facility, more power to 'em. That's the kind of range I belong to and would ONLY belong to.

The only place (in my opinion) that this debate holds ANY water is with being issued a CCW permit. And I still don't agree with it. Beyond the CCW permit debate...no way, no how though, is anyone gonna sell me on the idea that I need a government issued permit to own a firearm, go to a private range with a firearm, or be on my private property with a firearm. If somebody is gonna do something stupid, no amount of government training or printed paperwork with my name on it is going to prevent that.

I just don't want the government involved in this. At all.

This one just isn't gonna be decided here I'm afraid. Obviously a camp that sees government regulations as acceptable here and another group that doesn't.

Two discussions were going on....you caught that. Glad for that. Hunting was one. CCW was the other. OK.

You believe the shooting range should require safety training. Why is that? You'd feel safe there if everyone was safety trained. Right? Of course. I agree with that.

Would you give your son or daughter or grandson/daughter a gun to carry concealed without safety training (even if it were not required by the government)?

[chrish]

Two discussions were going on....you caught that. Glad for that. Hunting was one. CCW was the other. OK.

You believe the shooting range should require safety training. Why is that? You'd feel safe there if everyone was safety trained. Right? Of course. I agree with that.

Would you give your son or daughter or grandson/daughter a gun to carry concealed without safety training (even if it were not required by the government)?



Yes, I think a range should require safety training.


No, I don't by default feel safe at my range where people are 'trained' because I've seen people, with their orange 'I have been trained badge' doing stupid stuff. I watch them ALL like a hawk and correct them if need be.


No, I would not give anyone a firearm to use or carry if they did not receive training, whether that be from me or someone else qualified to do so. That's not the point.


I don't think anybody here is saying training is bad, or should not be done, but having it mandated by the government is the issue. The second issue in my mind, is the wording of the 2A. It's clear, crystal clear. I personally do not believe you can go off and start tinkering with it with federal, state, and local regulation and still adhere to it.

[garyb]

Yes, I think a range should require safety training.


No, I don't by default feel safe at my range where people are 'trained' because I've seen people, with their orange 'I have been trained badge' doing stupid stuff. I watch them ALL like a hawk and correct them if need be.


No, I would not give anyone a firearm to use or carry if they did not receive training, whether that be from me or someone else qualified to do so. That's not the point.


I don't think anybody here is saying training is bad, or should not be done, but having it mandated by the government is the issue. The second issue in my mind, is the wording of the 2A. It's clear, crystal clear. I personally do not believe you can go off and start tinkering with it with federal, state, and local regulation and still adhere to it.

OK, You feel the range should require range safety training and you would not give anyone a firearm if they did not receive training. But the mandate by the government is wrong. I get it. That makes perfect sense. It is an issue with the government. I sincerely understand that. We all realize they are after our guns and we want nothing to do with that. So it might be better to tell them that we won't be trained. It is another hoop we MUST jump through and we don't like it because it is a mandate from the govt and seen as a threat against firearms....which I admit it is. But from the perspective of safety training alone, we agree that it is a good thing. We are on the same page....I think. We don't want government mandates on guns because it is a freedom. But we want to be safe at the range and make sure all gun owners are safe.

What is 2A? And what do you mean by tinkering with it? I sincerely don't know what that is about. Thanks.

[chrish]

I really shouldn't even be engaging in this debate for a more fundamental reason. This all surrounds a CCW permit and the assumption that you need one in the first place, which I have to remain within the letter of the law. But I don't not think they should even exist in the first place. The CCW permit is already an overreaching grab by the government into an area that the Constitution says they have to stay out of.


So, if there were no 'permit' to get, we are back to saying you have to have training to even buy a firearm. Which...um...nope.

[chrish]

OK, You feel the range should require range safety training and you would not give anyone a firearm if they did not receive training. But the mandate by the government is wrong. I get it. That makes perfect sense. It is an issue with the government. I sincerely understand that. We all realize they are after our guns and we want nothing to do with that. So it might be better to tell them that we won't be trained. It is another hoop we MUST jump through and we don't like it because it is a mandate from the govt and seen as a threat against firearms....which I admit it is. But from the perspective of safety training alone, we agree that it is a good thing. We are on the same page....I think. We don't want government mandates on guns because it is a freedom. But we want to be safe at the range and make sure all gun owners are safe.

What is 2A? And what do you mean by tinkering with it? I sincerely don't know what that is about. Thanks.



Yea, I think we all agree on the most of the point here. Glad you saw my point, whether you agree w/ it or not. I think this is a great discussion to have. Glad folks are able to have it and not get all hot-n-bothered by each others positions.


By tinkering I mean things like CCW permit, restricted locations where you can carry a firearm, etc. About the ONLY part of gun control I agree with is not allowing a violent felon purchase a gun or someone adjudicated by a JURY of being mentally unfit. Beyond that, most gun regulation I see as 'tinkering' with the 2A (2nd Amendment).

[garyb]

No, obviously not, but do I want the government doing it? Requiring it? Hell no. Have you been out on the roads lately, people are EVERYWHERE that were trained by the government (public schools) and licensed by the state (DMV) to drive a vehicle. They failed miserably. Idiots abound everywhere on the road. Matter of fact, look at the numbers. You are way more likely to be killed by those trained fools, than some idiot at the range not practicing gun safety.

That's the whole point. Mandated training by the government will do nothing to stop the moron at the range, the moron carrying three shelves down the aisle from you in the grocery store, etc.

You (or somebody) asked who trained you...well, actually, nobody. I was taught to respect firearms, but once I got into it, I'm self taught. Safety, proficiency, etc. I understand not everybody is gonna do that, that's how the world is. And no amount of regulation and mandatory training is gonna change that.

LOL. Wait a minute, I was "changing the equation" by mixing up hunting and government mandates, but now you are changing the equation by mixing in driving with CCW. OK, I see it. You feel that Mandated training by the govt will do nothing to stop morons at the range but range required training will. OK.
The reality is that the gov't does not do the training. They only want to see that you have had it through an approved program of the private sector. Some sort of safety program before purchasing a handgun. We don't like it, but that's how it is in some states. Eventually the Feds will make it universal. Get ready.

[garyb]

Tired. Tracked a deer all day. Having a beer now. It was fun. Thanks.

[jocko]

nuttin wrong with any kind of training.I just don't think it should be mandatory to own a firearm. I would venture tosay that 90-% of gun owners are not rambo gun owners. but they want the gun for protection or for what ever reason. I would venture to also say that most ccw permit owners are not trained either, but they have knowledge of guns be it just because they have been shooting that firearm alot or reading about guns and gun safety. Again, I don't think a shooting course should be mandatory.

I can say that I have read here and utter gun forums in the past that some of these gun owners scare the piss outta me. To much macho rambo stuff for me.
ur notgonna regulate safety without somekind of government regulatin and I don't want that. Do u honeslty think that ovomit, feinstein, and utters really give a fokk about how much training u have, thats gonna make a difference in how they would react to shoving more gun laws up our ass, IF THEY HAD THE CHANCE?? They don't want us to have guns, is that hard to fokking understand. I want the government as far as I can outta my life and if that means to some of u that I am taking a chance sitting in a booth and some "untrained" gun owner is in the next booth, then I will take that chance.:Amflag2: I feel if we let some here set the bar for who should and should not own a gun or be allowed to carry a gun, there would be far less of us and probably less gun forums. Sorry, I just don't want you or anyone telling me how qualified or unqualified I am accordig to yoiuyr criteria. Just sayin

[jocko]

Tired. Tracked a deer all day. Having a beer now. It was fun. Thanks.

did u find the deer???:typing:

[tv_racin_fan]

Ugh! You guys are killing me. We all agree that training is essential. What we're talking about is not being allowed to buy a gun until we can prove we bought our training from the government. Sheesh. I love you guys but sometimes.........

I promised not to argue this point anymore so I'll go back to biting my tongue.

Carry on.

They don't mind mandated govt training. They don't worry how much it will cost or where they may have to go to get that mandated govt training.

Bet they do have a problem with the govt mandated healthcare and the increased cost.

Quite an interesting conundrum.

[chrish]

LOL. Wait a minute, I was "changing the equation" by mixing up hunting and government mandates, but now you are changing the equation by mixing in driving with CCW. OK, I see it. You feel that Mandated training by the govt will do nothing to stop morons at the range but range required training will. OK.
The reality is that the gov't does not do the training. They only want to see that you have had it through an approved program of the private sector. Some sort of safety program before purchasing a handgun. We don't like it, but that's how it is in some states. Eventually the Feds will make it universal. Get ready.



Sorry for the confusion. I never said training would stop morons regardless of where they got it. I only said that training is good, everybody should do it, and that private individuals or organizations that provide it are correct (in my opinion) to do so. If they don't, its not an organization (private) that I would choose to join or frequent.


But, having health insurance is also a good idea. I recommend it. Everybody should do it. But should the government be imposing it. Nope.


That's all I was saying. All because I think training is good and should be conducted does not HAVE to go hand in hand with thinking the government should do it or limit my freedom because I do or don't get what they deem to be acceptable training. That's all.


Hope that clears up my point/thoughts.

[yqtszhj]

I never said training would stop morons regardless of where they got it.



And there is the key. Look who got voted in as president. Too many morons around all over. :amflag:

[garyb]

did u find the deer???:typing:

Jocko,
Unfortunately I did not. I've been out for the past 6 weeks and have passed up numerous shots at skipper bucks waiting for a slammer. Thursday at 2:15PM a slammer walked in straight at me. I saw him at 40yrds, grabbed my bow and got ready. At 32 yrds he stopped when he crossed a spikes trail (which I let pass an hour earlier). He was still facing me, but I knew this was the moment. I drew the arrow and waited for him to decide which way he was going to turn. He looked back toward the way he came, with his head facing into the wind. As he did, his front shoulder opened up to me and I let the arrow go. As the arrow was in the air, he twisted his entire body 90, to go back the way he came in and my arrow hit him in the gut and passed through. He bounded off in the direction he came and I saw him stop at 80 yrds and start walking slowly up hill into the wind. I realized that it was a terrible situation. I waited 2 hours to retrieve my arrow, which had gut and blood saturating it. There was a spew of gut and blood on the exit side of the deer on the ground. I pulled out and called a good friend to help me on Friday. We found a meager blood trail for about 70 yrds and a bloody bed at the end of it. There was one more spot of blood after the bed. We knew his direction and he was heading into the wind. WE looked all day Friday... two very tired old guys.
I had a few beers to numb my mental disappointment last night...while I got wrapped up in the training safety crap. I was grumpy...sorry.

I am getting ready to go back out and look again today. Perhaps the coyotes found him, I will hear the crows on his carcass and save his rack. He was a nice 8 or more pointer. Not really sure because everything happened sooo fast. It is not what a dedicated bow hunter wants, but I know this happens. I failed me and that beautiful buck who is out there suffering. So off I go for the day....

[muggsy]

At the indoor range last night, I'm two bays away from a dad and three sons, aged something like 6 to 9. They're shooting pistols and .22 rifle. At one point, I step out of my bay and look over and dad has a pistol lying on a table and instead of being pointed downrange, it is pointed right at me. The .22 rifle is lying on an adjacent table and instead of being pointed downrange, it is pointed the opposite direction -- right at one of his sons who is sitting on a chair watching his family members shoot.

DUH!

I usually speak to such nitwits myself, reminding them that firearms are always to be pointed downrange, but this time, I got a range employee, who explained this fundamental safety rule to nitwit dad.

I hope nitwit dad learned something.

At the range that I utilize all first timers are required to watch a range safety video before stepping out onto the range. There is always a range safety officer watching over the range when anyone is shooting. He and I have become good friends and he even helps me to police my brass when I finish shooting. You should discuss range safety with the owners of the range. It might help to reduce their liability insurance costs. It could save your life.

[muggsy]

I really shouldn't even be engaging in this debate for a more fundamental reason. This all surrounds a CCW permit and the assumption that you need one in the first place, which I have to remain within the letter of the law. But I don't not think they should even exist in the first place. The CCW permit is already an overreaching grab by the government into an area that the Constitution says they have to stay out of.


So, if there were no 'permit' to get, we are back to saying you have to have training to even buy a firearm. Which...um...nope.

My thought is that the second amendment to the constitution is my concealed carry permit. The right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

[jocko]

http://youtu.be/Dd7FixvoKBw

If u watch this viudeo, it should remind u of ol jocko. YOU people just don['t understand me. I feel for this teacher. dumb fokking students no less Just sayin

[b4uqzme]

That's f-in hilarious! A little comic relief? You been studyin' Shakespeare on us Jocko?

[chrish]

My thought is that the second amendment to the constitution is my concealed carry permit. The right to bear arms shall not be infringed.



+1 gazillion. You said it.

[b4uqzme]

Bingo

[chrish]

'course, you fellas know that makes us the exception to the rule? we are the CRAAAAAAZY ones.

[b4uqzme]

Crazy is as crazy does....

[Salty]

Difficult issue to address - lots of new gun owners out there who did not grow up with grandpa's / dad's training. NO NRA Hunter Safety coarse. They get there training from the movies. Don't know or want to learn how to maintain the firearm. VS Experienced responsible owners / shooters. Finding the balance between rights and safety is an undefined road. I can not count the number or shooter's on the range I have assisted in education with their new firearm - in particular semi-auto pistols. I can tell you one of the scariest times for a gun shop owner is when a person comes into a shop full of customers and starts waving his rifle or pistol around while asking how does this "thing work".

[Bawanna]

I can attest to the gun shop horror stories. When I first got hurt I did a little on the job training thing in a gun shop, I'd still be there if I could hear. But anyhow a uniformed female officer came in walked up to me and said she needed some ammo. I asked her what caliber and she drew her semi auto and pointed it straight at me and said whatever this thing takes.

The shop owner who happened to be a short distance down the counter was watching probably because of the uniform but maybe because he wanted to see my sales magic. He came down full tilt pushed her arm aside and pinned the gun to the counter.

Made her leave the shop and told her never to come back. At the time I wasn't all that freaked out, in hind sight it was a pretty scary thing.

[b4uqzme]

Difficult issue to address - lots of new gun owners out there who did not grow up with grandpa's / dad's training. NO NRA Hunter Safety coarse. They get there training from the movies. Don't know or want to learn how to maintain the firearm. VS Experienced responsible owners / shooters. Finding the balance between rights and safety is an undefined road. I can not count the number or shooter's on the range I have assisted in education with their new firearm - in particular semi-auto pistols. I can tell you one of the scariest times for a gun shop owner is when a person comes into a shop full of customers and starts waving his rifle or pistol around while asking how does this "thing work".

Those are programs I fully endorse: the gun shop owner who offers a lesson with every firearm purchased, the range officer who spends a few minutes with every new shooter, the experienced shooter next door who takes his newbie neighbor to the range for some one on one instruction...:)

[jocko]

:target:
I can attest to the gun shop horror stories. When I first got hurt I did a little on the job training thing in a gun shop, I'd still be there if I could hear. But anyhow a uniformed female officer came in walked up to me and said she needed some ammo. I asked her what caliber and she drew her semi auto and pointed it straight at me and said whatever this thing takes.

The shop owner who happened to be a short distance down the counter was watching probably because of the uniform but maybe because he wanted to see my sales magic. He came down full tilt pushed her arm aside and pinned the gun to the counter.

Made her leave the shop and told her never to come back. At the time I wasn't all that freaked out, in hind sight it was a pretty scary thing.

she probably works in ur department!! Just sayin:Amflag2: The reason u was not freaked ouytr was tha tyou were probalby staring at her 38's and didn't even notice the gun.:target:

[muggsy]

Years ago I was deer hunting with friends in Hocking County. I was sitting in the back seat of a pick-up when one of the guys climbed into the front seat pointing the muzzle of his twelve gauge directly at my nose. When I asked him not to point his shotgun at my head, because it may be loaded he replied that there was no maybe about it, it is loaded. I never hunted with that S.O.B. again.

[jocko]

Man to think that u were just a hair trigger away form never bein on this forum!!!

Wow some dreams just never come true. Just sayin

[Tinman507]

Jocko,

you owe me a keyboard. I just snarfed apple cider all over it

[jocko]

whats a keyboard???