M-4 ?

[olympicmotorcars]

I have been thinking seriously about getting my first AR type rifle. I really like the short barrel carbine type M-4.

1. Can I legally own one with a barrel that short? (14.5 inches I think )

2. I know this is a question with no really easy answer , but would you just build your own, or would you buy one off the shelf?

3. If off the shelf, what makers are the best?

4. how accurate are the off-the-shelf models?

[yqtszhj]

I have been thinking seriously about getting my first AR type rifle. I really like the short barrel carbine type M-4.

1. Can I legally own one with a barrel that short? (14.5 inches I think )

2. I know this is a question with no really easy answer , but would you just build your own, or would you buy one off the shelf?

3. If off the shelf, what makers are the best?

4. how accurate are the off-the-shelf models?

1. It will have to have the welded on flash suppressor that is 1.5 inches long or it will be a SBR and you'll have to pay the tax. Less than 16 inches is an SBR

2. If I bought one off the shelf I'd get a Windham weaponry (the original bushmaster maker)

3. See number 2.

4. I have a 20 inch M2 bushmaster with a competition barrel that is sub MOA if I do my part but its not as short as an M4.

JMHO

[ParabellumJ]

I have been thinking seriously about getting my first AR type rifle. I really like the short barrel carbine type M-4.

1. Can I legally own one with a barrel that short? (14.5 inches I think )

2. I know this is a question with no really easy answer , but would you just build your own, or would you buy one off the shelf?

3. If off the shelf, what makers are the best?

4. how accurate are the off-the-shelf models?

1. Yes, but only if you have the NFA tax stamp, otherwise you have to have a 16" barrel (or a 14.5" barrel with a 1.5" flash suppressor welded on)

2. There are plenty of good rack rifles, and building one, while fun, isn't as cheap as it once was. Assuming You can find a quality rifle that is within your budget and has the features you want, I would buy off the rack.

3. This could be a long list, but in my opinion the following makers are some of the best: Colt, Daniel Defense, LWRC, LMT, BCM, Noveske, and Larue. Some "very good" rifles are CMMG, S&W, Spikes Tactical, Windham Weaponry, Rock River Arms, Ruger, Stag Arms, Sig Sauer, Palmetto State Armory. Also, there is a little known company called Barnes Precision that makes very high quality rifles, but good luck finding one. Not all of these makers offer a 14.5" carbine, but all have 16" barrel "M4geries" available. The only true M4 is made by Colt. Your budget will tell you who your candidates are.

4. Accuracy in most carbines is probably around 1.5 to 2 MOA with good ammo. I can usually shoot around 3 MOA with my Colt using iron sights, but the gun is capable of better with optics. If you want to get the most out of an AR for long range accuracy a 20" rifle is the best choice. If you want a rifle built for patrol or cqb then get a carbine.

My $.02 is the trouble of getting the NFA stamp isn't worth the 1.5" in barrel length. I would buy a quality 16" carbine or mid-length off the rack and use that as a starting point to customize it to your taste.

[Bawanna]

1. It will have to have the welded on flash suppressor that is 1.5 inches long or it will be a SBR and you'll have to pay the tax. Less than 16 inches is an SBR

2. If I bought one off the shelf I'd get a Windham weaponry (the original bushmaster maker)

3. See number 2.

4. I have a 20 inch M2 bushmaster with a competition barrel that is sub MOA if I do my part but its not as short as an M4.

JMHO

This^^^^

[RRP]

Good advice already. I'll add the following:

1. Yes, owning a 14.5" barrel is legal in some states; not all. However, as noted above, this is an NFA item and requires special registration and tax. Given the current backlog, it may take 7-10 months to take possession of your purchase. Don't buy an SBR for your first AR.

2. For your first AR, buy a complete, assembled gun with a 16" barrel. Put off the building projects until after you've gained some experience with the AR platform.

3. Lots of good suggestions have been given. If you intend to add a red dot optic, you can save approximately $150 on the rifle purchase if you get one without a carry handle and back-up iron sights. These are sometimes referred to as "optic-ready" or "flat-top" models.

4. A rack grade service rifle is more accurate than most people can shoot. Spending double the money on an AR is not going to make you a better shot. BRM skill is far more important than the make/model of the rifle.

Good luck with your search.

[CJB]

The two inches will cost you about $150 for a firearms trust. Then $200 for the NFA title 2 paperwork and processing of form 4. The you'll usually have increased FFL class 3 dealer fee, and the normal FFL fee and background check fee.

Once you get a title 2 weapon - you wont be able to sell it, except through a class 3 FFL to someone who wants to go through the same runaround

And you cannot bring it out of the state thats put on form 4 as its residing state.

Just food for thought.... two inches aint worth that for me, but it might be for you

[downtownv]

Just food for thought.... two inches aint worth that for me, but it might be for you

Two inches can make a big difference in some areas, but not in a carbine! :cool:

[h2ohhh]

Lots of great rifles out there these days. Being an old school fogie though, I'm pretty attached to my Ruger Mini-14 ranch rifle. Mines a stainless/synthetic version that came standard with a 20 shot clip (most come with a 5). It's a brass shucking machine with a simple Garand style bolt. Takes a beating and keeps on ticking. Downside, if there is one, is that they don't like aftermarket clips.

[Armybrat]

I've been gettin' the hots for a Colt LE6920 with Magpul furniture recently - $1,100-$1,200. Don't need one, but so what?

My Mini-14 is going to one of my sons.

[dirtkicker]

There are tons of choices out there. A determining factor also will be your purpose for having one. Range shooting, home defense, hunting?

I wanted a hunting/varmint rifle so I went with a 'flat top' or 'optics ready' AR. My research and budget took me to a Stag Arms model 3. I scoped it w/a Nikon and it will cut the X at 100 yards. It shoots way better than I do if you know what I mean. The model 3 was $799 when I purchased. After adding some picatinny rails, magpul furniture, and the scope I have around $1100 in it.

I am wanting a second one for home defense and just general fun. I intend to go with something that has flip up/down sights that can be co witnessed with a 1X red dot or some type of CQC optic then mount a weapon light on it.

Again lots of choices. For general range fun the Smith and Wesson M&P Sport gets great reviews as well as DPMS. The list in this thread by ParabellumJ is pretty spot on as far as I can see. Good luck with your search and enjoy the hours you'll spend online researching. The hunt is almost as fun as the purchase!

[DeaconKC]

Okay, I just finished building an AR. I have been working on and maintaining my firearms for over 20 years. When it comes to repairs, I take mine to a good 'smith. If you can field strip a 1911 you can build an AR. Before you start, decide what parts you want on it. Mine was a very simple build, started with a stripped lower, got the parts to build it and then ordered a complete Delton upper from MidwayUSA. It went together easily, as the AR was designed to be modular. Also, check out this thread for ideas of what you like, yeah, its over 200 pages, but worth the time. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/409405_POST_PICS_OF_YOUR_BUILDS_HERE_____SHOW_EM_O FF__PT_2_.html

[JimBianchi]

For a first M4, I would go with the Colt. $1100 or less is most places for the base model.

Great gun for the price and if for any reason you want to sell it later, it will hold its value better than any gun on the market.

[olympicmotorcars]

Thanks for all the great advice everybody.

[olympicmotorcars]

What are your thoughts on piston vs gas?

[ParabellumJ]

For a first M4, I would go with the Colt. $1100 or less is most places for the base model.

Great gun for the price and if for any reason you want to sell it later, it will hold its value better than any gun on the market.

^^^This is solid advice. The Colt LE6920 is the rifle all others are judged against. It is the gold standard of AR-15's. There are better, more expensive options, but for $1100 or so you won't find any better.

As far as piston or direct impingement, I am going DI for civilian use. The piston gun is better running a suppressor and is also more reliable full auto, but unless you are using the gun in one of these configurations there is really no need.

The first question you need to answer is what is the gun going to be used for? Is it a precision rifle for bench shooting at the range? Is it for hunting? Is it a personal protection/SHTF gun? Is it all of the above? Once you have that figured out then you can narrow down barrel length, gas system and length, caliber, optics, accessories. Most people go with a 16" barrel carbine or mid length DI gun with flat top upper. This is probably the most versatile configuration. Personally I wanted a patrol style rifle for defensive use and something fun at the range. After tons of research I bought a Colt LE6920 and I'm glad I did. Good luck on whatever you decide. The hunt is as much fun as customizing it after you buy one.

[CJB]

Two inches can make a big difference in some areas, but not in a carbine! :cool:

Well I'll be damned to go thru hoops and pay good money to LOSE two of those inches!

[CJB]

Question - does Colt still use the civilian pattern cross bolt sizes and locations on their civilian receivers, making them incompatable with mil spec uppers and lowers? There was a time when the Hartford Horsie (Colt) was distained because you couldn't swap uppers unless you went with weird offset pin hardware that was a ***** to use and made field stripping and overall rigidity quite poor.

For me, that reason alone would be reason enough to avoid Colt. I'm rather partial to DPMS, who's been around for a very long time. Bushmaster... maybe.... Olympic Arms, maybe. Armelite... yup.

[jdavis]

This is an interesting thread with many valuable.ideas and opinions. Most people offer thoughts on which AR rifles or components to purchase. Are there any to avoid? It seems to me that most companies manufacture to military specs. making parts easy to interchange regardless of the maker. Is there really that much difference in durability? I can't recall hearing of any failure issues with major components but, I may not be very informed on the matter.

[ParabellumJ]

Question - does Colt still use the civilian pattern cross bolt sizes and locations on their civilian receivers, making them incompatable with mil spec uppers and lowers? There was a time when the Hartford Horsie (Colt) was distained because you couldn't swap uppers unless you went with weird offset pin hardware that was a ***** to use and made field stripping and overall rigidity quite poor.

For me, that reason alone would be reason enough to avoid Colt. I'm rather partial to DPMS, who's been around for a very long time. Bushmaster... maybe.... Olympic Arms, maybe. Armelite... yup.

Colt no longer has different lowers on civilian rifles, except for the safety selector obviously. Unfortunately Bushmaster and DPMS no longer build rifles to the same quality as they once did. Bushmaster isn't even made in Winham, ME anymore. Windham Weaponry is made by the former employees of bushmaster. Since those companies were bought by Freedom Group (including Marlin and Remington) they no longer are considered top tier rifles since the materials and processes cut corners in the interest of profits. They may still be good enough for most civilian use, but they aren't what they once were.

[ParabellumJ]

This is an interesting thread with many valuable.ideas and opinions. Most people offer thoughts on which AR rifles or components to purchase. Are there any to avoid? It seems to me that most companies manufacture to military specs. making parts easy to interchange regardless of the maker. Is there really that much difference in durability? I can't recall hearing of any failure issues with major components but, I may not be very informed on the matter.

The biggest difference in quality is in materials and quality control. For example, Bushmaster may inspect one bolt out of an entire batch, if it passes inspection they all pass. Colt and other top tier makers inspect every single bolt. That is just one example, but there are many differences in materials and manufacturing processes that separate the best from the rest.

[mluikey]

The two inches will cost you about $150 for a firearms trust. Then $200 for the NFA title 2 paperwork and processing of form 4. The you'll usually have increased FFL class 3 dealer fee, and the normal FFL fee and background check fee.

Once you get a title 2 weapon - you wont be able to sell it, except through a class 3 FFL to someone who wants to go through the same runaround

And you cannot bring it out of the state thats put on form 4 as its residing state.

Just food for thought.... two inches aint worth that for me, but it might be for you

Plus right now the ATF is quoting 15 months for approval of the tax stamp. I am building a 9.5" 300BLK AR pistol. No wait and no tax if its a pistol (however it has no stock either). :)

[yqtszhj]

Unfortunately Bushmaster ..... no longer build rifles to the same quality as they once did. Bushmaster isn't even made in Winham, ME anymore. Windham Weaponry is made by the former employees of bushmaster. Since those companies were bought by Freedom Group (including Marlin and Remington) they no longer are considered top tier rifles since the materials and processes cut corners in the interest of profits. They may still be good enough for most civilian use, but they aren't what they once were.

I can personally confirm the above statement as TRUE!

Bushmaster #1 - TOP notch

Bushmaster #2 - OK only.

[CJB]

Plus right now the ATF is quoting 15 months for approval of the tax stamp. I am building a 9.5" 300BLK AR pistol. No wait and no tax if its a pistol (however it has no stock either). :)

Weird. My Class-3 has told me that everything has been taking six months, almost to the day. I'm waiting for my serial number to start Form 4 as we speak.

[mluikey]

Weird. My Class-3 has told me that everything has been taking six months, almost to the day. I'm waiting for my serial number to start Form 4 as we speak.

You can call the NFA branch at 304-616-4500 and give them your serial number. I called yesterday for a Form 3 for 10 suppressors that I submitted on Sept 24, 2013 and they said pending. I asked what is the turnaround. They said 4 months for form 3 and 15 months for form 4s due to the Gov't shutdown.

[mluikey]

Just got word today my form 3s were approved (Nov 5) and suppressors are shipping out today. Can't wait to start messing with them. :86:



You can call the NFA branch at 304-616-4500 and give them your serial number. I called yesterday for a Form 3 for 10 suppressors that I submitted on Sept 24, 2013 and they said pending. I asked what is the turnaround. They said 4 months for form 3 and 15 months for form 4s due to the Gov't shutdown.

[CJB]

Due to the contents of this thread.... I pounced on a new LE6920, black today. Dunno all the furniture thats on it. I understand they've changed that more than a few times. Its supposed to have MagPull forearm and carbine stock, as well as grip, and MagPull rear sight. It'll be in Saturday, so I guess we'll find out.

[ParabellumJ]

Due to the contents of this thread.... I pounced on a new LE6920, black today. Dunno all the furniture thats on it. I understand they've changed that more than a few times. Its supposed to have MagPull forearm and carbine stock, as well as grip, and MagPull rear sight. It'll be in Saturday, so I guess we'll find out.

Congratulations! You have yourself one hellova rifle. If it's the Magpul edition, then it comes with Magpul MOE stock, rear sight, handguards, Verticle grip, and trigger guard. My rifle started life with the same furniture in FDE, but it's since been upgraded here and there, although I did keep the FDE color scheme. Let us know how you like it. Here is a poor picture I took of mine...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/21/zataryba.jpg

[CJB]

I'm doing more reading. It may have the Colt/Rogers locking rear stock, and MagPull everything else. Some time along in production, they made a switch in ...early 2013? Good chances its the Colt, which is ok I'm not picky. They also went from a square forend to a older looking round forend similar to the XM177. But thats supposed to be MagPull...got no idea. If I don't like the sight, I've got a nice Troy rear here that should do nicely. Also got GI magazines, bought when you could get them for a buck each, or 10 for six bucks. Twenty round mags. And some thirtys. The 80's were very very good to me....hehehe.

[Alfonse]

This thread is timely for me. I've been thinking of an AR. I am considering the Colt LE6940 and WW CDI. Para, I assume you like the angled foregrip?

I really can't believe I am considering an AR. Next I will think Glocks and Keltecs are attractive.

[aray]

I really can't believe I am considering an AR. Next I will think Glocks and Keltecs are attractive.

I never really wanted an AR either, until my state banned them in the post Sandy Hook hysteria. Up to that time I had standardized on just two calibers: 9mm and 22.

But when Maryland was about to ban Uzis a few years back, I went out and bought one before the deadline hit. Now, it's one of my favorite guns (along with my CW9). So, with the looming AR ban approaching, I first bought an off the shelf Core 15 (from Good Times Outdoors). Then later, I went further and build my own custom AR. And now I'm finding that, like the Uzi, I love the AR platform. Besides being a blast to shoot (no pun intended), it's like playing with Legos all over again!

[Bawanna]

I feel the same. Don't have one anymore but need to get one before they ban em out here.

I call em Mr. Potato Head guns. Lego's is a good analogy.

[aray]

I like that moniker.

Here's my Mr. Potato Head custom built AR-15:

9531

I bought a lot of Magpul furniture, both because I like it, and also in support of their decision to leave Colorado after that state's anti-gun bills. I'm a rock-solid Magpul fan after that.

Note also my Kahr CW9 thrown in for good measure. Love that gun.

9532

I couldn't resist the Molon Labe ejector port dust cover, since my AR purchases were in response to anti-2A state bills.

9534

Specs:


Umbrella Corporation Weapons Research Group Cerakote FDE forged receiver set (3rd generation stripped upper & 4th generation stripped lower & Umbrella grip 23)
Noveske 16" lightweight 5.56mm stainless barrel
Black Yankee Hill Machine 12.5" lightweight free float rail system
Smith Enterprise Vortex G6A3 flash hider
Young Mfg national match bolt carrier group (chrome in semi auto config)
Geissele Automatics G2S two-stage AR-15 trigger
Joe Bob Outfitters lower receiver parts kit without trigger parts
Battle Arms Development ambidextrous safety selector (standard & short levers)
Rainier Arms Raptor ambidextrous charging handle
Rock River Arms forward assist kit
Molon Labe ejector port dust cover with parts
Magpul trigger guard with NDZ screw kit upgrade from ndzperformance in FDE
JBO Mil-Spec 6 position stock hardware kit
Magpul CTR buttstock Mil-Spec diameter in FDE
Magpul magazines
I Kick Hippies SLAP ambidextrous sling loop end plate
Magpul rail sling attachment
Magpul MS3 sling
Not yet purchased: Magpul MBUS sights (Gen2) (FDE front has been out of stock for months)
Not yet purchased: TBD optics to take advantage of the inherent accuracy of this rifle. With help of the state's leading gunsmith who tuned it, this rifle should easily be sub-MOA.
Not yet purchased: Inforce rail mount flashlight

And finally here is a picture of all of my now-banned (but fortunately grandfathered-in) guns:


9535


A sharp eye will also note some of my hoard of 9mm Black Talon ammo, of which I grabbed many boxes when Winchester pulled them off the market in response to the hysteria surrounding that particular round.

[CJB]

Dunno why I'm mentioning this, but... my other AR-15 is very old. I got it used. It had sat for nearly 15 years before I got it, and the finish on the outside was turning a light grey. The rifle got a complete K-Kote, and I mean EVERYthing was taken apart, K-Koted and put back together. All pins, levers, springs, you name it. Its shot fine since then, never a hiccup. Nice thing is, its a very very early commercial AR, with M16 trigger and bolt carrier. Serial number is four digits! Shows to be an early 1965 production. It also had the original three prong flash hider... which for some reason I cant remember, I changed A1 type. Wish I'd have K-Koted the three prong, I'd put it back on the rifle. I still have it, but its just parkerized. That rifle has seen at least 5,000 rounds, with no discernable wear inside the lockwork, or the barrel.

[ParabellumJ]

This thread is timely for me. I've been thinking of an AR. I am considering the Colt LE6940 and WW CDI. Para, I assume you like the angled foregrip?

I really can't believe I am considering an AR. Next I will think Glocks and Keltecs are attractive.

Love the angled fore grip. It's the magpul AFG2. Very comfortable, and doesn't interfere with shooting from a rest. Get an AR-15, you'll love it. While you're at it get a Glock too. Pass on the KelTec.

[CJB]

AR, yes. Glock, I'll easily pass. KelTec.... I wish they would have gotten the KSG together... its been years, and hardly any samples

[Armybrat]

My wallet is really twitchin' something fierce.

[Dirty Harry]

Here's my latest Zombie killer Spikes build. I just want to add an Aimpoint pro.
Crappy phone pics.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u297/TRX450R_Racer/20131122_180916_zpsab8be2db.jpg (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/TRX450R_Racer/media/20131122_180916_zpsab8be2db.jpg.html)

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u297/TRX450R_Racer/20131122_180952_zps81e162ef.jpg (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/TRX450R_Racer/media/20131122_180952_zps81e162ef.jpg.html)

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u297/TRX450R_Racer/20131122_181128_zps7e320394.jpg (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/TRX450R_Racer/media/20131122_181128_zps7e320394.jpg.html)

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u297/TRX450R_Racer/20131122_181151_zpsca716131.jpg (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/TRX450R_Racer/media/20131122_181151_zpsca716131.jpg.html)

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u297/TRX450R_Racer/20131122_195511_zps083400f2.jpg (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/TRX450R_Racer/media/20131122_195511_zps083400f2.jpg.html)