Armed robbery at 2:00 AM after Mall shopping

[Allen]

Good evening fellows. As a somewhat recent CC person I've asked a couple of "what ifs" questions here and got great responses.
Now for the next one. The couple on the news in Oklahoma City came out of the Mall at 2:00 in the morning loaded with packages and was robbed at gun point as they loaded their vehicle. Everything including their vehicle was taken. Sounds like they were definitely taken by surprise and wouldn't have had any chance to use a gun at that time, but after the gunmen (there were two but only one gun) got in their car to drive off what would/could/should an armed victum have done.

As the thieves drove off the threat was over so I'm thinking any gun-play at that time would be considered by law enforcement as using unnecessary force and cause the victum even more trouble.

Could you stand there with your gun in it's holster and not done anything watching your car going away? I'm wondering what I would have done - other than not be shopping at 2:00 in the morning in a large city.

[Bawanna]

You nailed it. The threat is over, the temptation is huge but you better just wait to file the report.

I don't know if I could watch my car go away either, would be tough.

[ParabellumJ]

Once threat to life has ended, so has the right to use deadly force. The only thing you are protecting at that pint is material possessions.

[RRP]

Doesn't Jocko have a saying about this? Something about shooting the fokker like he stole it?

[Bawanna]

And your dignity, manhood and self respect. But these things aren't important to lawyers who don't understand the concept.

Nobody likes it when the bad guy wins and they usually do because the good guys have a mountain of rules we have to play by.

[The Faux King]

Once threat to life has ended, so has the right to use deadly force. The only thing you are protecting at that pint is material possessions.

My thoughts exactly.

[Ikeo74]

If the victim had a concealed permit and his gun on him, then he had ample time to used it before they drove away in his car. He could have shot the perp with the gun (with his own gun) before they drove off and claimed fear of his life, and would have justified. IMO.

[Allen]

Hopefully the bad guys in this case will be caught before they can dump the booty. The victium identified the gunman from Mall video cameras, and for a change the video was very clear and precise. The victium said they shouldn't have walked to the car when no one else was in the parking lot even though it was full of cars, and he noticed the guys walking toward them but even feeling uneasy didn't return to the Mall immediately.
On the news he said they went shopping the next day to replace things, and to apply for a CC permit.
Even seeing some nervous looking characters approaching, just how ready could you get for a gun to be pointed at you in close range. Maybe raise your shirt tail or coat to expose your weapon? Or very descretly have it ready in your hand? With your wife and very young child there it could get very dicey. Maybe even armed he did what would be the right thing, but he had no way of knowing what the BGs were up to. Or if they were the "leave no witnesses" type.

[knkali]

Thanks Allen for bringing this up so I can pontificate. What to do so we can all learn by this--esp at this time of year. I seldom will allow both my hands full if I am walking to the car with my wife. Alone is different. Situational awareness. I always have my strong side free in case I have to go for my protection. If there is so much stuff that I we have to carry, then I leave my wife with the stuff at the front of the store and I pull the car up.

[olympicmotorcars]

I agree with what everyone has said so far. Appears they were lucky, no one got hurt, anything else is just junk that can be replaced.

[The Faux King]

Excellent point knkali -- if you can't easily access your firearm (under "normal" circumstances) you are jeopardizing the point of carrying. Likewise, situational awareness is #1.

[kwh]

Lawyers are expensive. The court system wastes time away from job and family. Avoid both. Difficult I know to let them get away, but you saved money by avoiding the courts. Deadly force IMHO is to protect family, not stuff.

[Armybrat]

Doesn't Jocko have a saying about this? Something about shooting the fokker like he stole it?

Here in Texas if a crook is making off with your property after dark, it is entirely legal to chase them and fill them full of lead.

[The Faux King]

Ha! There's only one Texas! :amflag:

[7shot]

Here in Texas if a crook is making off with your property after dark, it is entirely legal to chase them and fill them full of lead.

Still, I would not promote this idea to rectify this type of situation...

[cltyus1]

I need to move to Texas

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

[Kinetic]

Instead, put more effort into avoiding being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I personally avoid dark parking lots at 2am in any city. Just because you're armed and have a permit, doesn't make these sketchy areas any less sketchy. Also, having a gun in a situation like this might actually get you killed.

[OldLincoln]

Nah, don't shoot. Just push the remote button that sets off the car bomb and claim Al Quida did it!

[Carcw9]

If the victim had a concealed permit and his gun on him, then he had ample time to used it before they drove away in his car. He could have shot the perp with the gun (with his own gun) before they drove off and claimed fear of his life, and would have justified. IMO.

How many out there would feel confident about pulling your weapon. While you have already seen that the perp has his out.

[Bawanna]

Instead, put more effort into avoiding being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I personally avoid dark parking lots at 2am in any city. Just because you're armed and have a permit, doesn't make these sketchy areas any less sketchy. Also, having a gun in a situation like this might actually get you killed.

I got this fine until the last line, then I was lost.

[getsome]

There's been a a couple things already mentioned that will lower your chances of getting held up like don't go shopping at 2:00 am and park a long way from the store....Another is situational awareness, look around when you leave the door and keep your head on a swivel the whole time....Don't have your hands full and use a shopping cart if possible....If you are with your wife or someone else have them stay in the store with the packages while the armed person goes for the car and pick them up at the curb where there is more light and people present...

Think like a criminal and about what you would do if you were going to rob somebody... I see people all the time come out of a store playing with their phones with no clue where they are going and who might be waiting for them....Don't hit your auto unlock key fob until you get to your car because if you do it from far away it automatically tells the bad guys where you are going and gives them time to set up and surprise you....

I pocket carry my pistol and keep my hand on my gun until I get my truck unlocked then walk around and look under it and all around the immediate area before loading packages and if I see anyone walking towards me even if they are dressed nice I will wait until they are a distance away before taking my eyes off them....

If someone does walk up on you think like a cop and watch their hands... They will likely keep their weapon hidden until the last minute and if things start looking funny I have pulled my pistol and kept it next to my leg until they went away and the danger passed and I once had a bum come up to me asking for money and when he saw me put my pistol back in my pocket he decided he didn't need my money so bad after all...

These are crazy dangerous times.....If the BG does get the drop on you then give it up, it aint worth dying for no matter what it is and if they do manage to get away let the cops handle it, they're better at it and there's more of them....Pay attention and stay safe to shop again another day and NO present is worth risking your life or literally to die for!!!

[Longitude Zero]

Thanks Allen for bringing this up so I can pontificate. What to do so we can all learn by this--esp at this time of year. I seldom will allow both my hands full if I am walking to the car with my wife. Alone is different. Situational awareness. I always have my strong side free in case I have to go for my protection. If there is so much stuff that I we have to carry, then I leave my wife with the stuff at the front of the store and I pull the car up.


Precisely. Once the threat presented itself you may fire until the threat is eliminated or flees. I live in the city where this occurred so I have a unique and unqualified understanding.


This mall has known for years they have a severe crime problem. At last count several brutal rapes have occurred in the parking garage and untold numbers of violent crimes. The mall GM was told 5 years ago to put in a camera system, and hire security or better yet off-duty uniformed officers. She and the mall were and still are too cheap to provide proper security. Wherever you go ALWAYS have a plan and an E&E. In generally if no weapon is presented just go along to survive. With my training and experience once a weapon is presented, especially a firearm it will get very loud very quickly. It would not be my first rodeo.

[JERRY]

closing the barn door after horse ran out doesn't make sense. neither does shooting at your own car when all the criminal has is it and Christmas presents.

pay attention to your surroundings, that is the first clue.

of all the people coming and going at that time, in that location, why do you think the criminals targeted this particular couple?

[sas PM9]

There's been a a couple things already mentioned that will lower your chances of getting held up like don't go shopping at 2:00 am and park a long way from the store....Another is situational awareness, look around when you leave the door and keep your head on a swivel the whole time....Don't have your hands full and use a shopping cart if possible....If you are with your wife or someone else have them stay in the store with the packages while the armed person goes for the car and pick them up at the curb where there is more light and people present...

Think like a criminal and about what you would do if you were going to rob somebody... I see people all the time come out of a store playing with their phones with no clue where they are going and who might be waiting for them....Don't hit your auto unlock key fob until you get to your car because if you do it from far away it automatically tells the bad guys where you are going and gives them time to set up and surprise you....

I pocket carry my pistol and keep my hand on my gun until I get my truck unlocked then walk around and look under it and all around the immediate area before loading packages and if I see anyone walking towards me even if they are dressed nice I will wait until they are a distance away before taking my eyes off them....

If someone does walk up on you think like a cop and watch their hands... They will likely keep their weapon hidden until the last minute and if things start looking funny I have pulled my pistol and kept it next to my leg until they went away and the danger passed and I once had a bum come up to me asking for money and when he saw me put my pistol back in my pocket he decided he didn't need my money so bad after all...

These are crazy dangerous times.....If the BG does get the drop on you then give it up, it aint worth dying for no matter what it is and if they do manage to get away let the cops handle it, they're better at it and there's more of them....Pay attention and stay safe to shop again another day and NO present is worth risking your life or literally to die for!!!


GS:

Thank you for your enlightening post.
I agree with your talking points but I have a questioning thought.

In the parking lot scenario, someone is approaching and your antenna are screaming, you pull your pistol and have it down alongside your leg. . . where does the line between having your pistol at the "low ready" position and "branishing" get crossed?

I.E. at what point are you now in the position of being in trouble with the law?

-steve

[knkali]

The line is fine........

[Bawanna]

Agreed, the line is fine, with the gun down by your leg your not threatening, not pointing it etc.

Brandishing is a really crappy law, so open to interpretation.

Some consider printing thru your shirt brandishing. BH Bull Hockey!

If the bad guys mind changes and they reverse course, mission accomplished. If it turns out it's not a bad guy and they call, you express your fears and advise of potential danger signals and if your lucky and get a good officer you'll be on your way in no time.

[Bawanna]

I think far too many people, police officers included, and maybe especially police officers are too slow to take appropriate action for fear of not being PC.

Good guy versus bad guy, the good guy is already behind the curve. He doesn't know the game plan. Gun in hand is the fastest route to the face shot every time.

If it's a false alarm, great, my bad, lets move on.

[RRP]

Good guy versus bad guy, the good guy is already behind the curve. He doesn't know the game plan. Gun in hand is the fastest route to the face shot every time.


Pocket carry can be advantageous in this scenario. You can have a grip on your pistol/revolver and be ready to draw, if needed. No one sees the gun, so you avoid any chances of criminal threatening or brandishing charges, if the situation is a false alarm.

[getsome]

It is a fine line and I've only pulled my pistol once to hold it out of sight behind my leg which ended up with a bum walking rapidly away....If I had felt strongly enough to point it at him then he would have already been shot....

It's a fine line but it's also a dangerous world out there and I'm going to err on the side of caution and explain it later if need be....

[JERRY]

make a distinct movement, see if the "suspect" does the same. take action at that point, lets presume you're paying attention in the first place.

[RRP]

make a distinct movement, see if the "suspect" does the same. take action at that point, lets presume you're paying attention in the first place.

I don't know what you mean by "distinct movement". If you are suggesting a movement that is consistent with reaching for a weapon, that would be a bad idea.

[RevRay]

I may be way off base, but let me throw this out there anyway. Let's assume that no bad guy would approach someone if they knew ahead of time that the victim was carrying a weapon. Secondly, let's assume that the bad guy is probably not a bright as you. If those things are true ... then it stands to reason that they probably aren't expecting you to be carrying, which puts you in the driver's seat. They think that they are ... but if you have been practicing awareness, and if you're carrying, then you're actually in the driver's seat ... you have the upper hand.

[Bawanna]

Does the bad guy have a weapon in your scenario?

I think what Jerry means is something like change direction, stop and see if they stop, run and see if they run. A good one here would be to pull out your phone and act like your calling Walker Texas Ranger to come take care of business.

Not so much drawing your gun to get a response.

[JERRY]

I don't know what you mean by "distinct movement". If you are suggesting a movement that is consistent with reaching for a weapon, that would be a bad idea.


lets use a little common sense here. lets pretend you are walking along the north side of a row of parked cars and notice a "suspect" doing the same.

cross the driving lane to the south side of the row of parked cars or, walk between cars to another row.... et cetera. there are things you should know and do before drawing a gun on a nondescript potential threat ;) like is the "suspect" parroting your moves?

I guess you're use to reading arm chair commando mall ninja stuff on the internet. that wont be entertained here.

[JERRY]

Does the bad guy have a weapon in your scenario?

I think what Jerry means is something like change direction, stop and see if they stop, run and see if they run. A good one here would be to pull out your phone and act like your calling Walker Texas Ranger to come take care of business.

Not so much drawing your gun to get a response.

yes, thank you for understanding. I didn't read your post before I typed mine.

[JERRY]

It is a fine line and I've only pulled my pistol once to hold it out of sight behind my leg which ended up with a bum walking rapidly away....If I had felt strongly enough to point it at him then he would have already been shot....

It's a fine line but it's also a dangerous world out there and I'm going to err on the side of caution and explain it later if need be....

this time a year is a good reason to have a centennial or bodyguard type J frame in an outer coat pocket. you can cover a "suspect" and nobody is the wiser.

[Allen]

closing the barn door after horse ran out doesn't make sense. neither does shooting at your own car when all the criminal has is it and Christmas presents.

pay attention to your surroundings, that is the first clue.

of all the people coming and going at that time, in that location, why do you think the criminals targeted this particular couple?

From what I could tell from the victim's comments to the news, even though the Mall parking lot was full of cars there were no other people walking to their cars at that particular time. The victim admitted he should have been more "aware" and should have returned to the Mall entrance when he realized they were the only ones walking to their car. Don't know if this is what the BGs were looking for, or if a man with his wife, little child, and an arm full of packages was the signal.
Hopefully we'll hear more when they catch the cruds.

As was asked above, I also wondered at what point your weapon would be raised from the side of your leg and what if your timing was off just a slit second and the BG brought his out first. No indication here whether he had his hand in his jacket all the time during the approach or not, but it sounded like the victim didn't realize they were closing in that much until it was too late to do anything as the wife had already placed the child in the back seat by then. Again, be very aware of your surroundings at all times.

All the comments here have been very educational.

[RRP]

make a distinct movement, see if the "suspect" does the same. take action at that point, lets presume you're paying attention in the first place.


I don't know what you mean by "distinct movement". If you are suggesting a movement that is consistent with reaching for a weapon, that would be a bad idea.



I guess you're use to reading arm chair commando mall ninja stuff on the internet. that wont be entertained here.

Your response is a bit harsh, Mr. Jerry. That won't be entertained here.

Please reread my initial comment, above. It was not an indictment on your point-of-view. It was an acknowledgement that I wasn't sure what you meant by "distinct movement". That terminology is very vague. It can mean a lot of things--some of which, I agree, are appropriate responses. Altering course and moving away from the threat is an indicated response. Putting distance between you and the threat is an indicated response. But that's not what you said.

Because you were unclear, interpretation was left to the reader. I didn't make any assumptions about your intent. My post simply stated that "IF" you were referring to a furtive movement, that would be a bad idea.

[JERRY]

Your response is a bit harsh, Mr. Jerry. That won't be entertained here.

Please reread my initial comment, above. It was not an indictment on your point-of-view. It was an acknowledgement that I wasn't sure what you meant by "distinct movement". That terminology is very vague. It can mean a lot of things--some of which, I agree, are appropriate responses. Altering course and moving away from the threat is an indicated response. Putting distance between you and the threat is an indicated response. But that's not what you said.

Because you were unclear, interpretation was left to the reader. I didn't make any assumptions about your intent. My post simply stated that "IF" you were referring to a furtive movement, that would be a bad idea.


no, you wont getting any mall ninja armchair commando responses from me unless I put some sort of smilie face after it to indicate that it was a tongue in cheek comment, as in I was joking....

[knkali]

Agreed, the line is fine, with the gun down by your leg your not threatening, not pointing it etc.

Brandishing is a really crappy law, so open to interpretation.

Some consider printing thru your shirt brandishing. BH Bull Hockey!

If the bad guys mind changes and they reverse course, mission accomplished. If it turns out it's not a bad guy and they call, you express your fears and advise of potential danger signals and if your lucky and get a good officer you'll be on your way in no time.

BAM! on point. BG will turn good guy wont give a sheet. He/she is trying to get to their car too at 2 am so no harm no foul.

I do 80% fanny pack carry and have found I can palm my weapon while it is fully concealed. I do consider this a big advantage of this type of carry. I can turn and shoot through the pack or fully deploy the gun. Nice options IMHO. Usually at night in a parking lot, if I see someone approaching me, I will palm the gun and square off (blade him) so my muzzle is pointing at him. I also will put my weak arm out and use that as a distance guide. If they continue to get into my personal space, I will say loudly that's close enough. However, after a couple of these encounters, I have found that I am focused 1000% on the guy approaching and not the blind side. I have to get better.

[getsome]

Thats a good idea Knkali keeping your hand on your pistol without being seen....I like to keep my hand in my pocket on my gun when in a parking lot or dangerous area and it looks normal to anyone that might look my way but I can have it out in a hurry if need be....

I need to clarify a previous post...I once did pull my pistol and hold it by my leg to be ready because that time I was pumping gas and there was an obviously drunk or high on something bum going around the lot and he had a 4 foot piece of 2x2 in his hand...He was large, loud and very belligerant when begging for money so I wasn't going to fool around with him while he had that stick in his hand.....When he got to me I let him see the gun in my hand next to my leg but nobody else could since I was between my truck and the gas pump...The bum turned and left the parking lot and I reholstered my pistol in my pocket....Thats the only time I have pulled it on anyone but in that situation it seemed to be a good idea at the time and he result was good....

Now something else I was thinking about last night was that we seem to imagine these situations as dealing with only one BG but in reality in more and more cases the thugs seem to run in packs of 3 or more in a robbery crew with at least one having a gun....In a case where I'm outnumbered and surrounded by punks that get off hurting and possibly killing people I think it might be best to give them my wallet and car keys rather than pull my gun and possibly have it taken from me by force and used on me....Only thing worse than getting shot by a BG would be getting shot with your own gun by a BG....

[Bawanna]

In your last scenario the force multiplier being 3 and or more dirt bags versus you alone, increases the threat all by itself. If they are threatening harm, are all in close in a threatening manner then it's time for face shooting. This would not be an instance where you put the gun by your leg and act scary.

If the gun is already at your leg, this would be the time to point it to the ring leader.

Biggest to smallest, smallest to biggest, alphabetical order, don't matter. If they turn tail which they usually will at first site of anything but submission then you need to stop shooting. Shoot fast before they turn.:D

[knkali]

I think Bawanna is bringing up the concept of "disparity of force" when there are threats from multiple BGs

Disparity of Force is defined as a situation that any reasonable person would conclude places you at an overwhelming disadvantage in your effort to protect yourself against immediate and serious bodily injury

[getsome]

Agree with that, Sometimes you might find yourself in a no win situation where it's shoot or die....I still say our best weapon is between our ears and to do the best we can to stay out of those kinds of deals by using street smarts and common sense.....So far that has worked for me but you never know....I guess it all comes down to hope for the best but prepare for the worst and be ready and most importantly, willing to pull the trigger if the time comes.....

[Bawanna]

That's the one. I never had much grasp on them bigger words but I'm sure thats what they call it.

Being outnumbered even by unarmed dirt bags constitutes a threat in itself.

Just like a guy twice as big as you are is in your favor if you have to dispatch him.

The guys here tell me all the time how I'm kind of lucky in that beings as I can't run, have limited options for retreat and a 12 year old kid with a broken arm is a superior force, I'm always the underdog.

I guess with my attitude and short fuse that might be a good thing.

[Bawanna]

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, them is words to live by.

Had a poster that said that on the wall of my hospital room when I switched transportation modes. Good plan.

[Longitude Zero]

If I am approached and the BG says anything to intimate it is a robbery and has a firearm in his/her hand I do not care if it is pointing at me or not. I would draw and fire instantly. I can easily articulate I feared for my life. A rule LEO's learn from virtually day one is that if you wait to see a gun in the BG's hand you will get to see what comes out the end of it.


What it comes down to is this: Being able to articulate that you feared for your life or the lives of friends/family with you and that that fear was reasonable based upon the totality of circumstances. I cannot tell you how many BG's were justifiably shot and many killed for pointing their finger in a jacket pocket to make the victim think they had a gun.


The presence of lack thereof of a firearm is NOT the determining factor in making a shooting justifiable. It IS being able to explain that you were:


1. In fear of your life
2. That fear was reasonable based upon the circumstances at the instant you made the decision to fire your weapon. Aka the Reasonable Man Standard.

[knkali]

If I am approached and the BG says anything to intimate it is a robbery and has a firearm in his/her hand I do not care if it is pointing at me or not. I would draw and fire instantly. I can easily articulate I feared for my life. A rule LEO's learn from virtually day one is that if you wait to see a gun in the BG's hand you will get to see what comes out the end of it.


What it comes down to is this: Being able to articulate that you feared for your life or the lives of friends/family with you and that that fear was reasonable based upon the totality of circumstances. I cannot tell you how many BG's were justifiably shot and many killed for pointing their finger in a jacket pocket to make the victim think they had a gun

The presence of lack thereof of a firearm is NOT the determining factor in making a shooting justifiable. It IS being able to explain that you were:


1. In fear of your life
2. That fear was reasonable based upon the circumstances at the instant you made the decision to fire your weapon. Aka the Reasonable Man Standard.

Fukkn A

[RRP]

If I am approached and the BG says anything to intimate it is a robbery and has a firearm in his/her hand I do not care if it is pointing at me or not. I would draw and fire instantly. I can easily articulate I feared for my life. A rule LEO's learn from virtually day one is that if you wait to see a gun in the BG's hand you will get to see what comes out the end of it.


What it comes down to is this: Being able to articulate that you feared for your life or the lives of friends/family with you and that that fear was reasonable based upon the totality of circumstances. I cannot tell you how many BG's were justifiably shot and many killed for pointing their finger in a jacket pocket to make the victim think they had a gun.


The presence of lack thereof of a firearm is NOT the determining factor in making a shooting justifiable. It IS being able to explain that you were:


1. In fear of your life
2. That fear was reasonable based upon the circumstances at the instant you made the decision to fire your weapon. Aka the Reasonable Man Standard.

This is a very good Readers Digest version of justifiable use of force. It really is the core of an affirmative defense. One can't emphasize enough the importance of being able to "articulate" the reason for shooting. But it's not a topic I've ever seen discussed in this forum.

I'd like to recommend that you begin a new thread, dedicated to the justifiable use of force. This is important information for anyone who carries. In time, administrators may decide to make it a sticky.

Excellent contribution to the topic.

[Bawanna]

While ok to discuss this as it is important, it's also a huge gray hole and way too open to interpretation.

The best articulated statements sometimes do not work. Zimmerman is a good example.

LE has it's own set of rules of engagement or Use of Force Continuum. It's actually not much different than a legal civillians but has a few differences, like pursuit etc.

Probably not a good idea create a resource venue here on the forum.

Discussion is good, something a bottom feeding lawyer could use probably not so good.

[getsome]

This has been a really good discussion about what would you do in this or that situation bla bla bla....IMHO here is how it is when it comes to using deadly force in todays world, There is Theory....There is what guys on a gun forum say they would do....There is what Law Enforcement Text Books say...There is what the Law says in your particular state about what is legal and what isn't and unfortunately there is what the REAL WORLD does and in the real world if you shoot and kill a black teenager who says stick um up and is found to have only had his finger in a coat pocket pointed at you then wait and see what happens next....

No matter how scared you might have been at the time and how well you articulate that fear in court your butt is screwed and once Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Piers Morgan and the rest of the MSNBC goons start beating the war drums it aint going to matter what you say, your a$$ is going to be BBQ in molasses....It aint right but thats just how it is and as easy as it is to say I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 you better be ready for your whole life to go right up the old suckalux tube forever more....

CCW is a HUGE responsibility and not something to be taken lightly....In a perfect world it would be cut and dry and oh so simple but this is just how it is in the real world and sometimes it sucks....

[knkali]

This has been a really good discussion about what would you do in this or that situation bla bla bla....IMHO here is how it is when it comes to using deadly force in todays world, There is Theory....There is what guys on a gun forum say they would do....There is what Law Enforcement Text Books say...There is what the Law says in your particular state about what is legal and what isn't and unfortunately there is what the REAL WORLD does and in the real world if you shoot and kill a black teenager who says stick um up and is found to have only had his finger in a coat pocket pointed at you then wait and see what happens next....

No matter how scared you might have been at the time and how well you articulate that fear in court your butt is screwed and once Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Piers Morgan and the rest of the MSNBC goons start beating the war drums it aint going to matter what you say, your a$$ is going to be BBQ in molasses....It aint right but thats just how it is and as easy as it is to say I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 you better be ready for your whole life to go right up the old suckalux tube forever more....

CCW is a HUGE responsibility and not something to be taken lightly....In a perfect world it would be cut and dry and oh so simple but this is just how it is in the real world and sometimes it sucks....

Dude, Fukkn A

[johnh]

This has been a really good discussion about what would you do in this or that situation bla bla bla....IMHO here is how it is when it comes to using deadly force in todays world, There is Theory....There is what guys on a gun forum say they would do....There is what Law Enforcement Text Books say...There is what the Law says in your particular state about what is legal and what isn't and unfortunately there is what the REAL WORLD does and in the real world if you shoot and kill a black teenager who says stick um up and is found to have only had his finger in a coat pocket pointed at you then wait and see what happens next....

No matter how scared you might have been at the time and how well you articulate that fear in court your butt is screwed and once Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Piers Morgan and the rest of the MSNBC goons start beating the war drums it aint going to matter what you say, your a$$ is going to be BBQ in molasses....It aint right but thats just how it is and as easy as it is to say I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 you better be ready for your whole life to go right up the old suckalux tube forever more....

CCW is a HUGE responsibility and not something to be taken lightly....In a perfect world it would be cut and dry and oh so simple but this is just how it is in the real world and sometimes it sucks....

Very true. When I was teaching CCW classes, we covered law, and many of the points raised by previous posters about what is and is not a legally defensible, self-defense shooting. But I also stressed the very important advise Getsome is giving. We have seen all to clearly demonstrated that no matter how in the right you may be logically and legally, the most important trial may be that carried out in the media for the rest of your life. Weigh this carefully in making decisions that increase the potential for having to defend yourself using deadly force.

[knkali]

Very true. When I was teaching CCW classes, we covered law, and many of the points raised by previous posters about what is and is not a legally defensible, self-defense shooting. But I also stressed the very important advise Getsome is giving. We have seen all to clearly demonstrated that no matter how in the right you may be logically and legally, the most important trial may be that carried out in the media for the rest of your life. Weigh this carefully in making decisions that increase the potential for having to defend yourself using deadly force.

So really there are two fights for your life. The actual event then the aftermath. Often, I ask myself is it really worth it? What will I save? I put myself and my family through hell, probably will have zero money afterward and my life is ruined --and that is if I am involved in a good shoot. SO I have contemplated many times if I should continue to carry. However, the thought of giving a BG the power of whether I live or die by his whim does not appeal to me either. Please cheer me up guys.

[Armybrat]

Here in Texas our "Castle Doctrine" provides immunity to civil suits in the aftermath of a good shoot.

[knkali]

wow Texas is far more advanced than here

[Bawanna]

Or perhaps less advanced. They left things the way they should be, the way they used to be before lawyers, Jesse Jackson, Fat Al, and Ovomit.

[Glock23]

Here in Texas our "Castle Doctrine" provides immunity to civil suits in the aftermath of a good shoot.

Illinois, surprisingly, is the same way, though we have no Castle/Stand Your Ground laws...

Basically, if the shooting is justified, you are immune from civil suits by the suspect and/or their family.

We may be late in the game for concealed carry, but we have one of the better self defense laws.

[Tilos]

Very true. When I was teaching CCW classes, we covered law, and many of the points raised by previous posters about what is and is not a legally defensible, self-defense shooting. But I also stressed the very important advise Getsome is giving. We have seen all to clearly demonstrated that no matter how in the right you may be logically and legally, the most important trial may be that carried out in the media for the rest of your life. Weigh this carefully in making decisions that increase the potential for having to defend yourself using deadly force.

This...and I'm pulling the trigger, as I'm already labeled as a racist just by my age and skin color, and too old to worry about the rest of my life.
For me, weighing it carefully has already been done and won't be happening in the "heat of the moment" or rethought like a lawyer in court in the aftermath, or the media.
And that's the reason I didn't read thru all the "what if" bs here, as my decision has been made.
jmo

[Longitude Zero]

I have NO concern about the pole puffing race baiters the get on tv. In fact our local media has ignored completely Jackson the last times he has been in town protesting. Here in OK we too have immunity from civil suits if the shooting is justified. The bar to meet that requirement was set very low by state statute. In fact in order for the DA to find a shooting non-justified they virtually have to prove "beyond any and all doubt".

[JERRY]

make a clear effort to avoid confrontation if possible. if they still confront you after that what else can you do by strike out.

[muggsy]

I'm a man of few words. Two in the chest and one in the head. Anyone who points a gun at you is demonstrating a willingness to take your life. Anyone who demonstrates a willingness to take my life had better be ready to lose theirs.

[Bawanna]

"I have NO concern about the pole puffing race baiters the get on tv."

You should get concerned. They are going to rule the world and the head pole puffer is in the White House.

Be afraid, be very very afraid.

[Bawanna]

I'm a man of few words. Two in the chest and one in the head. Anyone who points a gun at you is demonstrating a willingness to take your life. Anyone who demonstrates a willingness to take my life had better be ready to lose theirs.

Thanks for the reminder Muggsy, I always get that screwed up. I always go 2 to the face and one to whatever is left.

I'll try harder.

[knkali]

Bawanna loves the face shot................................I'll leave it at that hehe

[Bawanna]

I should probably super glue my fingers together. Now anytime anybody gets shot in the face they'll blame it on me.

[getsome]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEr0EAcSWcc.....

[Allen]

I have NO concern about the pole puffing race baiters the get on tv. In fact our local media has ignored completely Jackson the last times he has been in town protesting. Here in OK we too have immunity from civil suits if the shooting is justified. The bar to meet that requirement was set very low by state statute. In fact in order for the DA to find a shooting non-justified they virtually have to prove "beyond any and all doubt".

Very glad to read your post. I was wondering just how/where to look to see what Oklahoma was doing to protect us from civil suits. I've been very concerned about what entails a justifiable shooting and sure didn't think about the civil suits. Keep thinking about the crap Zimmerman has had to put up with.

By the way, according to the prelimary evening news they've caught the jerk who did the 2:00 AM robbery at the OKC Mall. Haven't heard yet what all they will charge him with but I wouldn't mind being on the jury when he goes to trial.