Pm 45 blow up!!!!!!!

[Buzzard45]

:eek:I just finished putting new springs in my pm45 yesterday, and went to the indoor range to test it.
It was shooting at 95% (couple fail to chamber , one jamb upon eject , and two fail to fire on first trigger pull). At round 79 or 80 it went BOOM!!!
Instead of the normal bang and rocking back, it went straight up, after catching my breath and looking to make sure i still had all my fingers, i saw pieces of gun and mag. all over the place.
Upon closer inspection i saw the slide was partly open and could see the empty casing still in the chamber , but not fully, the case had a big hole in the side.
Apparently, it went off without seating fully into the chamber!
Resulting damage:
cracked frame
split mag. and broken parts
lost ejector
side panel and lost little screw
maybe more:confused:
Obviously, it`s going back to kahr for repair/replacement.
needless to say i`m not a happy camper right now:mad:
enough about me, how`s your day going?

[RRP]

:eek:I just finished putting new springs in my pm45 yesterday, and went to the indoor range to test it.
~
Apparently, it went off without seating fully into the chamber!


You didn't say which springs you replaced, but it's probably best if you don't advertise that.

It's not the first one we've seen go off before it was locked. That will spoil your day every time. Good luck.

[jocko]

did u by chance look to find the casings. surely they should be around that area..

[Buzzard45]

recoil and striker springs. always police the area for casings so we can reload.
only two casings were bad , the one that jammed,and the one that blew up.

[Tinman507]

Buzzard,

Glad you're ok and sorry about your pistol. Thank God it wasn't worse.

[bonjorno2]

if they were reloads don't tell kahr that! Glad you are ok!

[The Faux King]

Glad you are okay. Hope the recovery process for your pistol is smooth!

[MW surveyor]

That really suxs but glad you're OK. Hope that the ammo really was the PMC and not reloads. You might have some recourse through PMC in getting your pistol fixed. I don't think this is a warranty claim unless it really did fire out of battery. Good luck in talking to Kahr CS tomorrow!

[jocko]

recoil and striker springs. always police the area for casings so we can reload.
only two casings were bad , the one that jammed,and the one that blew up.

chance were these reloads, that u bought, or ur reloads or no it was new ammo.

sure would beniceto see a photo of the casings etc,and for sure send them back with thegun to kahr. Just sayin

[DeaconKC]

Glad you're okay!

[jocko]

send these photos to kahr attn; service manager, they should send u a pre pair pick up on ur gun, gonna have to be a new serial # frame, so will need to be sent to a ffl in ur area,as they cannot send the gun directly back to you..

glad ur Ok is what the members here want first.:amflag:

I have wrecked in my day quite a few nice looking expensive Harley's and mourned every one of them to but they are just fokking sheet metal. I healed and the bikes were replaced one way or the utter.Some of the sheet metal is in my left leg yet but WTF. Thats life.

[muggsy]

I have to say that your gun handled the failure exactly as designed. I don't think that the gun can fire if it's out of battery. Sounds like you experienced a load that was considerably over pressure. I'm betting reload. All PMC powder charges are electronically weighed to + or - 2 tenths of a grain.

[Bill K]

That is some scary stuff. Happy you're okay.

[CJB]

Glad you're ok Buzz'

Question:

Did you buy the pistol new?
Did you ever polish or alter the feed ramp?
The springs you replaced were higher or lower power?

Ammo related:
Were these your own reloads, other reloads, or factory new?
If your own reloads, how many times had the cases been loaded, and were they ever fired in another pistol?
If your own reloads, what crimp die was used?

~~

I've seen this happen two or three times before on .45ACP's.

In one case, I'm absolutely, positively certain it was not an overload, as the load was with Unique and a double charge would have been very easy to discern. Careful examiation of the unfired ammo showed that some of the bullets were getting set back during feeding. Conjecture was that in one instance, the bullet was set back far enough to move pressures beyond what the case would handle, and the case head blew right at the ramp. Moving a bullet back into the case can raise pressures dramatically. The cases had been loaded countless previous times. A secure bullet would have been ok in those cases. A new case probably would have held, or at worst bulged. The combination of setback and work hardened case was enough to cause the case failure. Or so it was determined by the evaluation of the evidence and connecting the dots.


A picture of that blown case would be worth 1000 conjectures.....

[codegeek]

Buzzard,

Glad you're ok and sorry about your pistol. Thank God it wasn't worse.

+1 add my grateful thoughts as well.

Sent from my GT-P6210 using Tapatalk 4

[ltxi]

Looks like the blowout side plate did its job perfectly.

[JERRY]

handloads..... nuff said.

[RevRay]

Wow! Every once in a while you hear about such things. I'm glad you're ok and Inhope all goes well with your gun.

[yqtszhj]

Glad you're ok Buzz'

Question:

Did you buy the pistol new?
Did you ever polish or alter the feed ramp?
The springs you replaced were higher or lower power?

Ammo related:
Were these your own reloads, other reloads, or factory new?
If your own reloads, how many times had the cases been loaded, and were they ever fired in another pistol?
If your own reloads, what crimp die was used?

~~

I've seen this happen two or three times before on .45ACP's.

In one case, I'm absolutely, positively certain it was not an overload, as the load was with Unique and a double charge would have been very easy to discern. Careful examiation of the unfired ammo showed that some of the bullets were getting set back during feeding. Conjecture was that in one instance, the bullet was set back far enough to move pressures beyond what the case would handle, and the case head blew right at the ramp. Moving a bullet back into the case can raise pressures dramatically. The cases had been loaded countless previous times. A secure bullet would have been ok in those cases. A new case probably would have held, or at worst bulged. The combination of setback and work hardened case was enough to cause the case failure. Or so it was determined by the evaluation of the evidence and connecting the dots.


A picture of that blown case would be worth 1000 conjectures.....

Every time I think you've impressed me you come out with another experience to top it. And I mean that all as a complement for sure.

Hey Buzzard, have you ever had any problem with some rounds not working in your CW45 because of their shape or being a bit too long? My CW45 won't eat Critical Defense ammo. It won't go all the way into battery. I could probably send it back for that but I just don't use that ammo now. I wonder what could happen if I had a round go in far enough for the striker to go but not all the way into battery?

[muggsy]

In my experience, when hand loading it's possible for half the charge to drop into one case and a charge and a half to drop into the next. That's why I've installed a dental mirror on my press at the charging station and visually check every charged case. It slows me down a bit, but I haven't destroyed any firearms and still have all ten of my fingers and both eyes. Safe reloading is no accident. You will be getting a new gun from Kahr, but you may have to pay for it. The serial number is on the frame and that's the only part that the BATF considers a gun. It will have to be returned to you through a local FFL and he may or may not charge you a transfer fee. The transfer will require a background check.

[garyb]

Glad you were not injured. Hope you figure this out.

[hardluk1]

Round went off not fully seated ? Was it a high primer that caused the kaboom when hit by the breach face

[Harrylee]

I have bee thinking about this and I have a thought this is only a idea. I have seen some very tight chambers on some of the Kahrs to where some rounds actually got stuck and had to be tapped out with a wood dowel. Now if that was a tight chamber and the round didn’t fully seat and if it was close enough still let the striker fire then a small part of the case would be unsupported letting the case to blow out at the weakest point. I know with my CM9 you can hold the slide back slightly and the striker will still fire. I don't understand why the chamber needs to be so tight that is ammo sensitive. On my 45's you can drop a round in the barrel and still have a little movement. That's the way my XDM is and I can feed anything in it without failures. Just my two cents hey yqtszhj do you think it's a depth problem or does the round get tight when almost seated?

[TheTman]

Buzzard, if you are using reloads, you might want to get a small electronic scale and start weighing each round to make sure they are consistent in weight, and recycle any that are lighter or heavier, than the norm. My electronic scales are very sensitive and show differences as small as 1/100 of a gram or ounce, and was pretty inexpensive.
Also, If you were using reloads, I don't know if I would admit it on the forum, the people at Kahr may by chance read this thread, and reloads void your warranty.

[warbird1]

This is why I don't reload and will not in the future. But that is just me.

[getsome]

Dang Buzzard, glad you didn't get hurt there buddy.....I haven't experienced a Ka-Boom yet but could have once with a squib load in a 1911 but thankfully the next round wouldn't chamber and saved both my bacon and the gun from damage....No Ka-Boom that time but I did have to clean out my shorts when I figured out how close I came to one....

One thing about a Kahr is they seem to have a short chamber to barrel rifling distance ...I remember reading here about a guy having trouble getting his pistol to go into battery with Remington Golder Saber ammo due to them having a longer than normal bullet length....When reloading, especially for a Khar the barrel should be used as a chamber depth gauge to prevent too long or too tight rounds not chambering due to not resizing the case full length or not having a good enough taper crimp....

What possibly could have happened is that you had a too long round without a good enough crimp and when the slide went forward and shoved the round into the chamber it forced the bullet back causing a high pressure spike which blew the case and the gun when you pulled the trigger...No way to know but it's possible and has happened before that bullet setback caused a pressure problem....

As others here have said it could have been an over charged round and if you were using factory new ammo you should have a case with PMC....If you were shooting reloads either yours or another reloader then I suspect ammo issues either an over powered load or a over long round pushed back or possibly as Murphy's luck sometimes has it, both at the same time....

Whatever we're all glad you didnt lose a finger or worse your eyesight and you are still healthy....Good luck to you and let us know how this one turns out, could get real interesting....

[Longitude Zero]

This is why I don't reload and will not in the future. But that is just me.


Same here. Glad buzzard is okay.

[MW surveyor]

Buzzard, if you are using reloads, you might want to get a small electronic scale and start weighing each round to make sure they are consistent in weight, and recycle any that are lighter or heavier, than the norm. My electronic scales are very sensitive and show differences as small as 1/100 of a gram or ounce, and was pretty inexpensive.
Also, If you were using reloads, I don't know if I would admit it on the forum, the people at Kahr may by chance read this thread, and reloads void your warranty.

An idea that sounds good but is somewhat unpractical. In order for this to work you would have to weigh each bullet and case then separate by weights, then put the weights together when loading to get a consistently weighted finished cartridge. Not all of the say 230 grain bullets weigh in at 230 grains and not all of the 45 ACP cases weigh the same. Depending on what powder is being used you could have a powder weight of only 3.8 or so grains (0.246 grams) in a 45 ACP shell.

[muggsy]

Same here. Glad buzzard is okay.

I've been reloading since the mid '70s. I've reloaded thousand upon thousand of rifle rounds, pistol rounds and shotgun shells. In all of that time and with all of those loads I experienced just one squib load. When I reload I devote all of my attention to the task at hand. Reloading is a perfectly safe practice if it's done properly.

[jocko]

I have bee thinking about this and I have a thought this is only a idea. I have seen some very tight chambers on some of the Kahrs to where some rounds actually got stuck and had to be tapped out with a wood dowel. Now if that was a tight chamber and the round didn’t fully seat and if it was close enough still let the striker fire then a small part of the case would be unsupported letting the case to blow out at the weakest point. I know with my CM9 you can hold the slide back slightly and the striker will still fire. I don't understand why the chamber needs to be so tight that is ammo sensitive. On my 45's you can drop a round in the barrel and still have a little movement. That's the way my XDM is and I can feed anything in it without failures. Just my two cents hey yqtszhj do you think it's a depth problem or does the round get tight when almost seated?

actually called freebore,and we have seen a fewon this fourm. althoughvery rare,Normaly if this hapens the gun will notgo into battery, therefore no boom period. If that slide is a cuntis hair out of battery u should get a dead trigger, not a kaboom.

Wehave asked here numerous times to see a photo of the brass and also if he was using reloads and to my knowledge no replys on either.If IMO it is reload, then . CASE CLOSED. Could have happend with a new round to but it didn't (to my knowledge).. Not to sure bullet setback is gonna create what we seen here. I think somene even awhile back posted a nice thread on bullet setback having no effects either.

Not that kahrs need this but many shooters want that round damn near touching therifling, to eliminate any freebore lay. Expecially long gun match shooters, Just sayin

[Buzzard45]

pm45 is off to kahr (finally) now the wait begins...

[Mazinger]

How did both magazines split? Did I miss something? Were they splitting before the blow up?

I also have a PM45 and would hate for that to happen to me. Glad you're OK.

[wyntrout]

I've had three episodes of magazines splitting with my PM45. The first incidence it was gun-related and Kahr duplicated the splitting and had to replace the frame to stop splitting.

The second time I sent the gun and magazines and they replaced the mags. They said the gun was okay. The third time they offered to get the gun shipped back again and replaced the mags... new from Ivanhoe. I declined on sending the gun back... would have been the SIXTH trip back to Kahr.

I love the pistol and trust it, but I do worry that the mags may split again! :rolleyes:

Magazine splits did/do happen with some of the Kahr mags, but Kahr will replace them.

Wynn:)

[Buzzard45]

Mazinger, the one mag either split during this session or earlier, not sure, noticed after getting home and examining the pieces. One of the two mags was replaced by kahr a little while back.(cracked in same spot)
Wynn, six times? wow! I would have probably given up before that! (my patience is limited)

[CJB]

Buzz.... any chance of a picture of that blown case?

[jeepster09]

This is why I don't reload and will not in the future. But that is just me.


I totally agree...in the big picture you don't save any money and have a un-reliable gun. This should not be a warranty issue. I don't want my prices going up to cover bad reloads. :59:

[ParanoidMedic]

I had this exact same thing happen in my px4,stupid son-in-law shot some hist overly hot reloads in it. Glad you weren't hurt

[CJB]

I get paranoid and either charge a whole block of 50 so I can look for oddballs, or visually inspect every single case before I put the bullet in place if using the Hornady progressive.

Never had a double, but the risk is such that prudent safeguards should be in place.

I size 50, I prime 50.... ok no primers left over, I'm good there! I charge 50, and throw a double so I know what it looks like. Ok good there, make the double a single again. And then seat 50 bullets. All parts accounted for, all ammo gtg.

[jeepster09]

Also I would suggest giving up on reloading or shooting reloads. My .50 Desert Eagle suffered the same fate destroying the barell. The guy that owned it before me shot reloads and destroyed the barell. He had a round stick in barell and shot another on top of it, he is lucky only barell got destroyed. :40: I got rid of the gun because *I could not buy a replacement barell for it....[*another story]. It was not a defective gun but defective reloads. I did not blame anyone but myself. I should of saw bad barell when I bought it. How ever gun dealer I bought it from made it right for selling it to me that way.

[CJB]

It was not the reloads fault that the barrel was destroyed, or ringed.

In order to have a bullet stuck in the barrel, the action did not cycle. The shooter did not know what to do, and incorrectly withdrew the empty, and chambered a new live cartridge. He fired that cartridge. The result is a blown barrel. The fault was not the reloads. The fault was the shooters. His thought process was faulty, and its up to him to recognize the problem, and take proper precautions and remedies.

Squb loads happen occasionally.... rarely... even with non-reloaded ammo.

[jeepster09]

I would say it may be a combination of the reload and the shooter. Improperly loaded round and failure to realize that and shoot on top of it? Not enough powder??? Improperly sized bullit? Who knows? Rarely hear of this happening with factory ammo, not that it can't.

[Bawanna]

I saw photos of the culprit case and it wasn't a squib load. Most likely a double charge or combination of other factors.

It was blown out in the unsupported area, like it fired out of battery but I don't think that can happen in a Kahr.

Definitely high pressure.

[jocko]

if it was gonna blow, no doubt it would always blow in the unsupportred area, thats also why the extractor was blown away to.

[Buzzard45]

just got a call from kahr, they are repairing this, and at no cost! Oh happy days. said that it took so long, they would just go ahead and fix `er up
(page 14, boy it has been a while hasn`t it?:D)

[CJB]

Yes!!!!

[muggsy]

I have bee thinking about this and I have a thought this is only a idea. I have seen some very tight chambers on some of the Kahrs to where some rounds actually got stuck and had to be tapped out with a wood dowel. Now if that was a tight chamber and the round didn’t fully seat and if it was close enough still let the striker fire then a small part of the case would be unsupported letting the case to blow out at the weakest point. I know with my CM9 you can hold the slide back slightly and the striker will still fire. I don't understand why the chamber needs to be so tight that is ammo sensitive. On my 45's you can drop a round in the barrel and still have a little movement. That's the way my XDM is and I can feed anything in it without failures. Just my two cents hey yqtszhj do you think it's a depth problem or does the round get tight when almost seated?

Harrylee, you can get the striker to fall with the slide slightly out of battery, but if you check the gun will be in full lock up. As soon as the barrel comes out of lockup with the slide the trigger will not release the striker. It's a built in safety feature. Pistols blow up from bore obstructions or over charges of powder. Every gun design is tested with what the industry calls a proof load or blue pill load which is significantly higher in pressure than a standard load.

[Harrylee]

like I said it was only a thought

[Bawanna]

The main thing is Buzzard is getting his gun fixed good as new. Don't get no better than that.

[Buzzard45]

" don`t get no better than that" amen colonel.
And i`ve learned my lesson, no hot loads for me any more, not worth it, no matter what gun i shoot i`ll find the mildest loads that work an` shoot the fokker like i stole it.
(that means no +p self defense loads also) just not worth the risk imho.

[muggsy]

As Jocko would say, "yer learnin' " Mr Buzzard45. Safe shootin' is no accident.

[Harrylee]

You just have to love a happy ending. Now the world is good again:)

[WMac19]

Great to hear!

[RainingAgain]

Same here. Glad buzzard is okay.

and another Ditto.

[Buzzard45]

:cool: won`t be long now, just got a reply from kahr, they got the ffl info and are working on `er now. WOO HOO!:D

[Allen]

Once that ever happened to you, could you ever fire the gun again without winching or closing your eyes? Or at least wearing leather gloves at the range, which supposedly might help save some skin.

[Buzzard45]

pm45 came home with me from local ffl on Tuesday, all`s well in my little corner of the universe!
ps: i`m supposed to keep my eyes open when i practice? Would that improve my accuracy?:rolleyes:

Now i just need some $ for ammo:)

[wyntrout]

Congrats! I hope your new one works fine now!

Wynn:)

[RRP]

Congrats. Take it to the range for some fun. Shooting them is a blast. ;)

[hardluk1]

I would probably close my eyes and turn away for the first mag or two!


Glad your pistol back