Kahr CW.380 XTP or Hydrashock?

[kwh]

After much searching dealing with actual tests results of both ideal expansion and penetration in ballistic gel with and without 2-4 layers of denim based on FBI standards, only two bullets passed in short barrels pistols such as the Kahr P .380. The XTP 90 gr. bullet used in 1) Hornady Custom, 2) Fiocchi Extrema , 3)HPR and 4) Precision One and the Federal HydraShock bullet. My question is, in the opinion of those with Kahr .380 experience should I start with the XTP or the HydraShock first? Is one bullet more likely to have less FTF's than the other?

[Barth]

I've read that the LAPD approves 380 Auto 90 gr FTX® Critical Defense - Hornady for their officers BUGs.
http://www.theammosource.com/images/90080.jpg

[booger switch]

The simple answer is to buy both and see what your gun likes. If they both function, then flip a coin. Both are great choices.

[kcarmo4]

I found this video really helpful. At the very least, a lot of good info for anyone carrying a .380

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/11/daniel-zimmerman/shootingthebull410-concludes-quest-ultimate-380-round/

[kwh]

Thanks. Did well in tests by MouseGun but the FTX failed some of the penetration tests by Shootingthe Bull410.

[monkeyboy]

buffalo bore

[wyntrout]

Buffalo Bore +P 90-grain Gold Dots(bonded) or the same bullet by Underwood in their +P load at a slightly higher velocity. The first is used in my Avatar picture.

Wynn:)

[Barth]

Buffalo Bore +P 90-grain Gold Dots(bonded) or the same bullet by Underwood in their +P load at a slightly higher velocity. The first is used in my Avatar picture.

Wynn:)

+1
I personally don't own a .380.
And really feel .38/9mm is minimum caliber for Self Defense.
But If I were for some reason required to carry such a small caliber gun.
BB +P has some of the most impressive ballistics I've seen in .380.
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/sfvhn.cpdkd/v/vspfiles/photos/27C-2.jpg?1365549403

[booger switch]

Adding velocity to .380 will increase the rate of expansion, but it will limit penetration. You are better off with a modest slow expander at 800 ft/s than you are with a fast expander at 950 ft/s.

The work done by ShootingtheBull and Ljutic backs this up.

I don't think anything really penetrates better (with expansion) than the XTP offerings or the Hydra Shok. If overpenetration doesn't concern you, I would lean toward the Hydra Shok as they are more likely to act like an FMJ than the XTP.

[SlowBurn]

Here's a video demo that shows the Hornady Critical Defense doing really well in gel tests with and without denim. This guy uses a Kahr P380 where the other testing was with a Ruger LCP. I'm not sure that explains the difference though. I just find the more I look into ammo the less I know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8hr8X7RLTI#t=25

[garyb]

It is interesting to see how these test videos (and videos where someone just talks about their ammo), are so vastly different. I went with Hornady's CD as well for my wife's 380. Lots of good 380 SD ammo out there.

[booger switch]

Critical Defense isn't a bad choice. It is essentially an XTP bullet with a polymer plug (prevents plugging) that is pushed 50 to 100 ft/s faster than their standard XTP bullet. The result is more consistent expansion, and as you should expect, less penetration.

This video demonstrates clearly what is happening. A standard XTP at @ 800 ft/s penetrating 15+ inches in bare gel as well as 4 layers denim.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0hbEtRvPU24

When it comes to penetration with .380, the rate of expansion is everything. The XTP is a slow expander, that is why it penetrates exceptionally well.

[Rubb]

Imo...fmj

[muggsy]

You need penetration with the .380 and you should consider using ball ammo. Ball ammo doesn't expand, but it does tumble creating a large wound channel. It feeds reliably and will penetrate a full 18" in ballistic gel and four layers of denim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soNdX36P-3E

[wyntrout]

FMJ is fine if you're sure of your BACKSTOP. It will blow through your target losing little energy and go through whatever's behind the target... and FMJ tumbles and ricochets a good distance.

Unless you hit something REALLY VITAL, the target may not even know he's hit.

Modern well-designed hollow points generally stay in the target BG and transfer all of their energy to the BG, usually doing more damage than a "slippery" FMJ that just passed through.

FMJ for every occasion is NOT a good idea.

JMHO.

Wynn:)

[garyb]

FMJ is fine if you're sure of your BACKSTOP. It will blow through your target losing little energy and go through whatever's behind the target... and FMJ tumbles and ricochets a good distance.

Unless you hit something REALLY VITAL, the target may not even know he's hit.

Modern well-designed hollow points generally stay in the target BG and transfer all of their energy to the BG, usually doing more damage than a "slippery" FMJ that just passed through.

FMJ for every occasion is NOT a good idea.

JMHO.


Wynn:)

I'm agreeing with you on that Wynn! I believe a some expansion is better than a whole lot of over penetration. I've seen what expansion does on deer and what penetration without expansion does. I'll go with more expansion any day. JMHO2

[sw66hiviz]

I don't get it. If one is going to get a .380 then search for a hot round such as the BB +P, why not just use a 9mm?

[rjt123]

I don't get it. If one is going to get a .380 then search for a hot round such as the BB +P, why not just use a 9mm?


.380s are carried, generally, for the small size of the firearm. Basically, it's much easier to carry/conceal a .380 than a 9mm. Having made the choice to carry a .380, folks are trying to pick the ammunition that will do the best job of stopping a BG with a somewhat anemic cartridge. So a hot round is desired to overcome some of the built-in shortcomings of the .380 cartridge. Or something like that. :)

[kwh]

Shooting tests really show strange things happening in the world of short barrel guns. In the .380 tests it was not unusual to find a lower velocity round to be superior in performance. The better bullets Cor-Bon, Gold Dot Buffalo Bore etc.which are great in longer barrels did not meet the minimum standards of both penetration and expansion in the Kahr P 380 The Hydra-Shock and XTP were the only two consistant performers in all the tests. My belief is one should select the most effective round in whatever firearm is being used. Rifle pistol or shotgun. If tests are available to help your selectiion rather than theory , why not use them? However as we all know the most effective round is worthless if it does not feed well. My question is: With all the knowledge and experience we have on board.does anyone know if Federals ( .380.Hydrashock) feed better than Hornadys(XTP) in the Kahr. This is more than just a point of interest, these rounds are expensive and I was hoping to save a little time and money. Of course I will test for proper function. I also have a CW9 edc a CW45 a Ruger SP101 and S&W .357 Mag Model 19.

[garyb]

I don't get it. If one is going to get a .380 then search for a hot round such as the BB +P, why not just use a 9mm?

Good question. I purchased a 380 for my wife because she could not work the slide on all the 9's we looked at (and we looked at a bunch). She found the S&W380BG and fell in love with it. She could work the slide easily. She liked the compactness for when she walks alone on our deserted country roads. She feels safer carrying it . She shoots it well. It was at a good price point. Everything gelled for her to get that 380....so that's how the story goes. I would have rather seen her get a 9 or a 40, but she carries the 380 and we both feel confident that it will protect her if needed. My daughter has a 40 Ruger for home defense, but for daily carry she also relies on the S&W BG380. Some folks prefer the compactness of the 380. I guess I would respond by saying, "Why not get a 380 if you'll carry it vs not having any gun?"....realizing that some folks will respond by saying they would rather not have a gun if it was going to be a 380. Personal preference.

[berettabone]

I think people put too much emphasis on ballistics tests. They are usually done under controlled conditions, of which, will most likely never be the same as the conditions under which you have to use your firearm. I owned a carried a BG. Sold It. Not because there was anything wrong with it. It was a great little firearm for what it was. Great for carry. I found that it liked Rem. 102 gr. jhp's. It was sold because of accuracy and it didn't quite fit my mitts like I would have liked it to. Most people wouldn't want to be shot or shot at, with anything, much less what caliber is being used. Like some have said, carrying .380 is better than not carrying at all. No matter what ammo you use, I am sure that at short distances, the .380 will do what it was designed for. Personally, I use Fed. HST'S for all of my firearms. I don't own any .380's anymore, but when I did, I really didn't feel under gunned. The caliber has it's place. I would concentrate more on what works and is reliable, than whether it's speed is 1000fps, or 1100 fps, and whether it expands to a half inch, or five eighth's. When in doubt, empty the mag................I am sure it will be sufficient for what it's intended for.

[Rubb]

FWIW...I carried Fed hyd shock and a spare mag of FMJ's before switching to all FMJ's...Hundreds fed and fired through my P3AT.

[warbird1]

Thanks. Did well in tests by MouseGun but the FTX failed some of the penetration tests by Shootingthe Bull410.
Critical Defense is designed not to over penetrate. If barrier penetration is desired then Hornady makes the Critical Duty although I'm not sure if it is available in .380. I use the new Barnes ammo in my LCP. Barnes TAC-XPD.

[warbird1]

I think people put too much emphasis on ballistics tests. They are usually done under controlled conditions, of which, will most likely never be the same as the conditions under which you have to use your firearm. I owned a carried a BG. Sold It. Not because there was anything wrong with it. It was a great little firearm for what it was. Great for carry. I found that it liked Rem. 102 gr. jhp's. It was sold because of accuracy and it didn't quite fit my mitts like I would have liked it to. Most people wouldn't want to be shot or shot at, with anything, much less what caliber is being used. Like some have said, carrying .380 is better than not carrying at all. No matter what ammo you use, I am sure that at short distances, the .380 will do what it was designed for. Personally, I use Fed. HST'S for all of my firearms. I don't own any .380's anymore, but when I did, I really didn't feel under gunned. The caliber has it's place. I would concentrate more on what works and is reliable, than whether it's speed is 1000fps, or 1100 fps, and whether it expands to a half inch, or five eighth's. When in doubt, empty the mag................I am sure it will be sufficient for what it's intended for.
Yes...nobody likes to leak.

[jocko]

380 ammo in the last 10 years has grown by leaps and bounds. I would not feel that undergunned carrying a 380. I did for many years before my PMJ9 was born,although they were kelteks POS guns at the time. I really thinkback then but onehas to give somecredit tokeltekc. They pioneered the 32 and380'sback then and basicaly got allthe big namesinto the game, and when the big names came on board, they broght quality thatIMOkeltek just didn'tseem to interested in at the time. George Kelgreen was a genius . Do many of u rememberthe grendal 380 that I beieve loaded from the top in a stripper type clip. way ahead of its timeback then. He went bankrupt back then to.

[kwh]

Just ordered XTP's from Precision One ammo at $27.99/50.

[muggsy]

FMJ is fine if you're sure of your BACKSTOP. It will blow through your target losing little energy and go through whatever's behind the target... and FMJ tumbles and ricochets a good distance.

Unless you hit something REALLY VITAL, the target may not even know he's hit.

Modern well-designed hollow points generally stay in the target BG and transfer all of their energy to the BG, usually doing more damage than a "slippery" FMJ that just passed through.

FMJ for every occasion is NOT a good idea.

JMHO.

Wynn:)

Wynn, if you are ever in a SHTF situation I doubt seriously that you are going to be concerned about a backstop. Your only concern will be in placing as many hits as possible on your assailant. In all probability, you're going to empty your gun. People have been struck by multiple rounds of .45 ACP and didn't realize that they were hit. Four layers of denim and ballistic gel don't shoot back.

[booger switch]

Just ordered XTP's from Precision One ammo at $27.99/50.

I was planning on ordering a couple hundred rounds myself but I see they are sold out. Serves me right for procrastinating.

Please post a range report with these when you can.

[garyb]

I think people put too much emphasis on ballistics tests. They are usually done under controlled conditions, of which, will most likely never be the same as the conditions under which you have to use your firearm. I owned a carried a BG. Sold It. Not because there was anything wrong with it. It was a great little firearm for what it was. Great for carry. I found that it liked Rem. 102 gr. jhp's. It was sold because of accuracy and it didn't quite fit my mitts like I would have liked it to. Most people wouldn't want to be shot or shot at, with anything, much less what caliber is being used. Like some have said, carrying .380 is better than not carrying at all. No matter what ammo you use, I am sure that at short distances, the .380 will do what it was designed for. Personally, I use Fed. HST'S for all of my firearms. I don't own any .380's anymore, but when I did, I really didn't feel under gunned. The caliber has it's place. I would concentrate more on what works and is reliable, than whether it's speed is 1000fps, or 1100 fps, and whether it expands to a half inch, or five eighth's. When in doubt, empty the mag................I am sure it will be sufficient for what it's intended for.

I agree. The ballistic tests are a good repeatable reference. However, it is not reality. It does not include bone and various tissue (muscle, lung, blood filled organs, etc...). There is simply not a good reliable way to simulate a human, nor what any bullet will interact with along the way through different angles, thicknesses, etc.... There are too many variables in reality. These gel tests are just that...simulated tests to make some sort of a comparison. That same bullet that did not expand on the denim or gel, might perform totally different after it goes through a rib or sternum or skull. That same bullet that over or under penetrated on the gel, may react differently through bone, muscle, blood filled organs and varying angles and thicknesses. I'm just saying that there is no absolute way to tell until use it.


I've had similar experiences shooting deer. I won't get into caliber issues because that starts a war. However, some ammo perform very well and others don't, but you can't necessarily go exclusively by the ballistics or tests. They are merely a reference simulation.

[booger switch]

10% ballistic gel is by far the best test medium we have, but obviously it is not perfect. I don't see people volunteering to be test media themselves. The gel is a uniform density fluid (to simulate the average density of the human body), while the human body is comprised of fluids of varying densities, as well as solids (bone).

The FBI decided on a range of 12 to 18 inches penetration in gel to be an acceptible equivalent range of penetration in human tissue. Most skulls will be fully penetrated with less than 12 inches of penetration, much less 18. Most people's abdomen's will be fully penetrated with 12 inches of actual penetration from front to back.

One thing I rarely see mentioned about the 12 to 18 inch penetration range is this is based on statistics. Specifically, it is based on a normal distribution (bell curve) with a desired mean penetration of 15 inches (most people only focus on 12 inches). That means if you get a mean penetration of 15 inches with a sample size larger than 30, then you can expect around 98% of these rounds will penetrate between 12 to 18 inches in the gel.

If your round has a mean penetration of 12 inches in the gel, using a sample size larger than 30, then you can expect 50% of these rounds to underpenetrate...

The bottom line is gel testing is a very good predictor of what a bullet will do in a human body, but it would be wise to select a round that frequently penetrates 15 inches instead of 12 inches. Stear clear of anything that typically penetrates less than 12 inches.

[berettabone]

10% ballistic gel is by far the best test medium we have, but obviously it is not perfect. I don't see people volunteering to be test media themselves. The gel is a uniform density fluid (to simulate the average density of the human body), while the human body is comprised of fluids of varying densities, as well as solids (bone).

The FBI decided on a range of 12 to 18 inches penetration in gel to be an acceptible equivalent range of penetration in human tissue. Most skulls will be fully penetrated with less than 12 inches of penetration, much less 18. Most people's abdomen's will be fully penetrated with 12 inches of actual penetration from front to back.

One thing I rarely see mentioned about the 12 to 18 inch penetration range is this is based on statistics. Specifically, it is based on a normal distribution (bell curve) with a desired mean penetration of 15 inches (most people only focus on 12 inches). That means if you get a mean penetration of 15 inches with a sample size larger than 30, then you can expect around 98% of these rounds will penetrate between 12 to 18 inches in the gel.

If your round has a mean penetration of 12 inches in the gel, using a sample size larger than 30, then you can expect 50% of these rounds to underpenetrate...

The bottom line is gel testing is a very good predictor of what a bullet will do in a human body, but it would be wise to select a round that frequently penetrates 15 inches instead of 12 inches. Stear clear of anything that typically penetrates less than 12 inches.
I usually don't let the FBI decide on my ammo for mehttp://kahrtalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Rubb]

I originally switched to FMJ after reading a story online several years ago about a guy that was negligently shot in the bicep area of the arm.
IIRC he was in the driver seat and the passenger had very bad gun handling practices to say the least.
Anyway... the Hydra Shok entered from the right, broke his humerus and did not exit the arm.
IMO the driver was very lucky is was a Hydra Shok and not a FMJ.
I’m sorry, I cannot verify this...I have searched and can’t find it anywhere.
If anyone else recalls this and can chime in to confirm or disprove, please do so.

Nowadays I tend to side with the folks that have seen the effects of JHP and FMJ in .380.


Over the course of the 200 handgun killing cases I've worked on (and taking into account my sometimes unique ability to get the detailed afterstory from the shooter himself), I've come to the belief that, to be assured of stopping, one must put hits on vital structures (brain/spinal cord or heart/aorta) of an aggresssor. I don't see how .380 JHPs add to a shooting's effectiveness, but I've seen a high percentage of instances in which they detracted from it. I wouldn't use .380 JHPs - not that they can't work, just that I've seen too many cases (for my comfort level) in which they failed to work.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/98508-380-load-calling-erich.html

[kwh]

I was planning on ordering a couple hundred rounds myself but I see they are sold out. Serves me right for procrastinating.

Please post a range report with these when you can.
Email Precision One now. One day they had the ammo in stock the next day they did not. I sent them an e-mail that same day (late pm) asking when the ammo might be back in stock and an almost immediate reply said that they were running more. I immediately went back on the web site and there they were available again. Check their web page again or email them.

[booger switch]

Email Precision One now. One day they had the ammo in stock the next day they did not. I sent them an e-mail that same day (late pm) asking when the ammo might be back in stock and an almost immediate reply said that they were running more.

Got my order in. Thanks for the heads-up!

[garyb]

I usually don't let the FBI decide on my ammo for mehttp://kahrtalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif





I was thinking the same thing....but also thought, "Who made the FBI the reference expert?" As far as the 380 is concerned, I look for good expansion within the first inch or so and generally 10-12" penetration. I'd much rather have good expansion, energy dumped within adequate penetration; rather than to have lack of expansion with over penetration. JMO.


I say this because, one of the best deer bullets I've ever seen work time after time, is a soft lead round ball over 85 grains of 2F from a muzzleloader. It dumps all the energy into the deer, expands completely as soon as it hits the deer and penetrates to the opposite side of the hide. The deer do not go anywhere. Most of the time, I'd find the ball totally flattened out in the hide on the opposite side of the animal. AS for over penetration with no expansion....I've shot deer with bonded sabots which did not expand and blew right through the deer. They would run over 100 yards with minimal blood loss. They all die with good shot placement, but the expanded bullet puts them down much, much more quickly. What does this have to do with 380 ammo? I believe that good, quick expansion and energy dump within adequate penetration...is King. On the other hand, over penetration without good expansion and resulting poor energy dump is the pauper. I must get expansion, energy dump into the target and decent penetration. That's why I would not recommend FMJ nor ball ammo in a 380. I believe this is a poor choice due to lack of expansion. JMO. You do not need 15-18" of penetration to hit the brain, lung or heart. But let's face it, placement is most important with anything...especially with a 380. That said...use what you feel will do the job.

[booger switch]

12 to 18 inches of penetration in ballistic gel is not equivalent to 12 to 18 inches of penetration in human tissue. I hope everyone gets that. It is an approximation. Actual penetration in human tissue will be less. I don't know what that exact range of equivalent penetration is, whether it is 6 to 9 inches or 8 to 12 inches of actual penetration in human tissue. No offense intended towards anyone but the FBI employed a lot pointy headed people, mechanical engineers, statisticians, doctors, etc to come up with that protocol, and I'm guessing they know a heck of a lot more about the subject than the average joe sixpack. Believe what you want, use whatever ammo you want, makes no difference to me.

[booger switch]

.380 is a bullet that is already on the ragged edge of being too light for caliber. Any .380 bullet that expands rapidly is going to virtually guarantee underpenetration, even if it doesn't strike bone. If it does strike bone, it will penetrate even less.

If your carry round penetrates 10 inches (on average) in ballistic gel, then that means half will penetrate less than 10 inches, and half will penetrate more than 10 inches, but only a small percentage will penetrate 12 or more inches. That would not be a good choice in my opinion.

[kwh]

.380 is a bullet that is already on the ragged edge of being too light for caliber. Any .380 bullet that expands rapidly is going to virtually guarantee underpenetration, even if it doesn't strike bone. If it does strike bone, it will penetrate even less.

If your carry round penetrates 10 inches (on average) in ballistic gel, then that means half will penetrate less than 10 inches, and half will penetrate more than 10 inches, but only a small percentage will penetrate 12 or more inches. That would not be a good choice in my opinion.
This should be a great test to eliminate certain bullets. If if the bullet over expands and under penetrates in gelatin that should automatically disqualify it for self defense use.

[garyb]

I'll get more specific. You can research it for yourself. Hornady Critical Defense 90 gr FTX. Low flash, Low recoil, Full uniform expansion begins at 1/2" and reaches max stretch cavity wound channel (1/2") to 4 1/2" of penetration. Rated at 1000FPS but short barrel tests chrony around 866 to 900 FPS. Expansion of bullet measured at .415 to .436. Total penetration was consistently 12 to 13". This was through 4 layers of denim and various gel types were tested. NO evidence of expanding quickly resulting in under penetration. IMHO the tests I've reviewed demonstrate that this is a good performer for 380. That is a bit more specific about what I was referring to as a good choice.

[mbaza3]

I use the 380 Auto 90 gr FTX® Critical Defense - Hornady. It has been 100% reliable in my P380.

[dbp67]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wOwCXXpEP50

Take this for what it's worth. I saw this video and googled Precision One and found that they are right here in SC. I went to a local gun show and met the owner and purchased several boxes of this round. They all fed, fired and ejected flawlessly. I use it for EDC now.

[garyb]

Yes, Precision One appears to be a good 380 carry ammo too. Good penetration and decent expansion.

[kwh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wOwCXXpEP50

Take this for what it's worth. I saw this video and googled Precision One and found that they are right here in SC. I went to a local gun show and met the owner and purchased several boxes of this round. They all fed, fired and ejected flawlessly. I use it for EDC now.
Thanks for the report. This was my original question to begin the thread, If any one had tried either the XTP or HydraShock bullets in the Kahr .380 for functional reliability.

[booger switch]

Precision One .380 with the XTP runs through my P380 like crap through a goose. Very accurate. I have a good supply of Hydra-Shok on hand, but the P1 is what I'll be carrying.

Starline brass. Very nice touch.

[gassah]

kwh,

I tried the HPR today and it ran well through my CW380. I've had trouble with Federal Hydrashoks. P1s have been ordered.

[kwh]

kwh,

I tried the HPR today and it ran well through my CW380. I've had trouble with Federal Hydrashoks. P1s have been ordered.
Thanks to all for the feedback.

[SaltyNC]

You may be interested in this, based on actual shootings:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

The numbers above are very similar for 9mm and .45, though clearly both of those rounds produce more damage. This study was an eye opener for me.

The XTP bullet in .380 seems to have the best combination of expansion VS penetration. Buffalo Bore expands great, beautiful expansion pattern, but it doesn't penetrate as deeply. Unless crazed or on drugs, you would sure as heck feel the Buffalo Bore round hammer into you.

I am just beginning to test defensive ammo in my .380, and my plan is to see if it will run reliably when mixing rounds. I have given a good bit of thought to this. It is a hard call and I know of no stats that will give a definitive best practice.

One could argue that since most stops are psychological, your first round should be expanding and hard hitting like the high pressure Buffalo Bore. That would let the person know without a doubt that they have been hit and hit hard, and hopefully will stop any aggression. If they don't stop, follow that up with either XTP or hard round in the next two rounds. That will get you the penetration you need for a physical stop, assuming you can place additional rounds into the aggressor.

Another argument could be made that the first round should be an XTP, since it will give both penetration and expansion, and could stop the aggression by physically destroying the CNS and registering psychologically, then follow that up with more XTP or a round bullet if heavy, thick layers of clothing will need to be penetrated. Season may affect what rounds to carry, as well. Summer and t-shirts, XTP. Down coats, sweaters, shirts, and thermals, maybe you will need that hard round bullet if you are willing to accept the risks to innocent bystanders.

But, as others have said, the cons of using hard ammo are that innocent bystanders could be hit if you miss or if the bullet exits the aggressor's body. Looking at hit/miss stats from LEOs who train regularly isn't very heartening. Under stress, despite better training than most of us will have, shots are often missed. Some of the misses may be explained by distance, multiple attackers, etc, but I think its been well documented that when people are under assault, and adrenaline is dumping, we tend not to perform up to our normal standards. We tend to suck out loud. Hands trembling, no fine motor control, stumbling backwards, freezing up, slow reaction time, tunnel vision, awareness of anything other than immediate threat completely gone. For that reason, I plan to do as much training as I can simulating those circumstances -- cold hands, pushing heart rate to max, etc. before drawing and firing. It will never be the same, but it will at least get closer to what one might actually experience. I hope I never do, though. I have only met one person (nice guy, seems normal) who shot and killed someone who it didn't greatly affect in a negative way.

After reading this, I'm tending to lean toward using XTP bullets only. It should still hit hard enough to register a good psych reaction, and at the same time, should produce good penetration and wound channel.

Here is the Shooting the Bull analysis that others here have pointed me toward. The more blue, the better:
http://shootingthebull.net/blog/final-results-of-the-380-acp-ammo-quest/

This is how I've been thinking about what to carry. I hope it helps. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a clear consensus on "the best".

SaltyNC

[SaltyNC]

Just FYI, Precision Ammo has the 50-box XTP back in stock. It is as inexpensive as most range ammo. I just ordered 200 rnds to try.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I have no idea about the quality control standards for ammo companies. Everything I've heard about Precision One has been excellent, but I would be lying if I didn't admit that it concerns me a little that they are smaller. Sometimes that is actually a good thing, sometimes not. For that reason, any ammo I plan to carry, I first test fire 100 rounds just to make sure the ammo feeds, etc. After that test is satisfied, I then take at minimum a 10% random sampling from each box of ammo I will use for carrying and test fire it for reliability. My thinking is that if there is a problem, it can affect a batch of ammo, so it would hopefully be caught in my sample run of each box. It's not foolproof, but it is better than nothing.

I just think, what if Louis, who has been producing .380 for the last 5 years, needs to take a leave of absence, and in his place, they bring in Johnny. Johnny is green as Popeye's spinach. He makes mistakes during his first two or three batches that no one catches. Or, what if Cletus knocks over a container of primer onto a dirty, dusty floor. He's worried he will lose his job, so he sweeps it up and puts it back into the container before anyone can see. Far fetched? Probably, but stuff like this happens even in medical-grade production. Or, imagine the head of quality control at Kahr is fired, but gets a new job as quality control for an ammo production company? ;) :eek: Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

SaltyNC

[thomjb]

I do like XTP bullets, try the Fiocchi Extrema...

[Cynthia S]

I know this is an old thread, but that seems appropriate to my question. A lot of years have pasted since the Shooting the Bull review that gave very good marks to Precision One XTP ammo for the P380. Does anyone have a comment on any possible changes in the production practices of Precision One or the reliability of the reviewed ammo? Any new reviews that might conflict with the Shooting Bull review?

I'm also a little confused by what seems conflicting info on Hornady HPs. The Shooting Bull review had Hornady CD pretty low in his review, and Hornady XTP pretty much at the top. But somewhere I read that the only difference in the 2 hornadys was that one had a polymer insert in the hollow. This doesn't seem right.

Final concern. The last post in this thread suggested that one use Fiocchi Extrema... . But I recall when I was researching my CT380, that Fiocchi Perfecta was a brand that caused feed problems because they were Italian made and didn't meet US standards of rim thickness. Are the Extrema... OK now in Kahr 380s?

Thanks all, Cynthia

[Ed M]

Cynthia - Perfecta ammo gave my Kahr 380s fits until i did the extractor modification found on this forum. It's made in Italy, and does not comply with SAAMI specs.

Fiocchi Extrema is made here in the US, and functioned fine in my Kahr 380s even before I did the extractor mod on them. Best part is that it's relatively inexpensive as well.

You likely missed out on Shooting the Bull's last video on the 380 Ammo Quest series. There's a new winner. Several of us here use the Underwood loading of Lehigh Defense's latest bullet design with good results.

Not cheap, but it's likely the best self defense round you can buy for a 380. https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/380-acp-65-grain-xtreme-defender?variant=7865927761977



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczfeWK9lHw&t=436s

[gale155]

I know this is an old thread, but that seems appropriate to my question. A lot of years have pasted since the Shooting the Bull review that gave very good marks to Precision One XTP ammo for the P380. Does anyone have a comment on any possible changes in the production practices of Precision One or the reliability of the reviewed ammo? Any new reviews that might conflict with the Shooting Bull review?

I'm also a little confused by what seems conflicting info on Hornady HPs. The Shooting Bull review had Hornady CD pretty low in his review, and Hornady XTP pretty much at the top. But somewhere I read that the only difference in the 2 hornadys was that one had a polymer insert in the hollow. This doesn't seem right.

Final concern. The last post in this thread suggested that one use Fiocchi Extrema... . But I recall when I was researching my CT380, that Fiocchi Perfecta was a brand that caused feed problems because they were Italian made and didn't meet US standards of rim thickness. Are the Extrema... OK now in Kahr 380s?

Thanks all, Cynthia

I don't have chronographs, gel or any of that stuff...I do all of my testing out in the back yard using heavy metal coffee cans or heavy plastic jugs filled with water. I then ask myself if I would want to be shot with it, and if I were would it stop me from doing what I was doing (which is why we shoot in self-defense). Based on my research and my back yard testing, I carry Hornady XTP in my .380's. It has been totally reliable in my RM380 and my new-to-me CW380.

I did a little shooting this afternoon with my CW380, and feel compelled to comment about Ruger ARX 56gr ammo. I've not carried it, but I've put a box through both of my .380's. It's the only ammo I've fired that absolutely blew-up my targets...I mean blew them up. I don't know if it's the increased velocity or what, but it's been impressive to me. My RM380 will eat any ammo, but as you know the CW380 can be finicky. Mine has cycled the ARX reliably without a single malfunction of any kind. I'm not totally convinced yet, but I'm starting to think about ARX for carry.

[Cynthia S]

Hi Ed. Yes, I looked up Lehigh after I posted the thread above. It looks really good, but I would prefer not to have the extra penetration of the Underwood, so am considering the Lehigh XP. At a buck fifty a shoot (assuming I find it locally), how many rounds in my CT380 would you consider enough to prove out reliability? I figure I can afford to shoot up a magazine a month to stay familiar with the ammo.

Hi Gale. I'm thinking the extra speed of your ARX most likely means lots more penetration. Extra penetration beyond good penetration seems like more to worry about well out beyond the bad guy. Don't think I need that.

Cynthia

[DavidR]

I've watched all the ARX gel tests on YouTube and the 380 round never over penetrates. In fact, it seems to barely make the FBI minimum 12 inches. Ruger no longer makes the round, Inceptor does and the bullet shape is a little different. The flutes are not as deep as the ARX rounds were. This may actually help it to penetrate further than 12 inches.

The picture below from left to right is Inceptor ARX, Lehigh Xtreme Defense and Black Hills Honey Badger (Lehigh made bullet). The ARX and Xtreme Defense run fine in my CT380 but 1 round out of 20 with the Honey Badger jammed on the feed ramp (likely because the round is long and square at the nose). Lehigh's Xtreme Penetrator (not pictured) also cycles fine.

If you can run a box of 20 through with no issues I would say you're good.

https://i.imgur.com/5bsWTOV.jpg?1

[Ed M]

Hi Cynthia - I live less than 30 minutes away from Lehigh Defense. I wanted nickle plated cases, and they suggested Underwood, as they partner with them.

I was advised to only buy one box to run through my gun to see if it fed OK. I was also advised to use the Xtreme Defender bullet as opposed to the Xtreme Penetrator.

The XD has less penetration than the XP, but a larger wound channel. I also use the +P version to insure enough penetration, especially in winter time with heavier clothes. The XD has functioned perfectly in every 380 I've tried it in.

The +P version is a stout load - 1400 fps and 283 ft lbs of energy. The non +P is plenty potent enough at 1300 fps and 244 ft lbs of energy.

I prefer nickle plated cases for my carry ammo for durability reasons, and I also feel they're a bit slicker for smoother feeding. Nothing wrong with the Lehigh loading of these bullets, but Underwood uses Starline cases (the best), CCI primers (my favorite) and low flash powder. Best quality components money can buy.

[Cynthia S]

Well, there you go. I was not aware that there were more bullets with fluting than just the Lehigh(Underwood) XP. I guess I need to do some more research on the new candidates.

Cynthia

[SlowBurn]

FWIW Ventura Munitions sells .380 ARX in 250 round bulk boxes. Cost shipped works out about the same as buying regular FMJ ammo by the box Price allows me to use it for range and carry. Works great. It’s also light weight which is nice in a pocket pistol.
ventura-tactical-380-acp-56gr-fragmenting-fluted-rn-new-ammo-250-rounds (https://www.venturamunitions.com/ventura-tactical-380-acp-56gr-fragmenting-fluted-rn-new-ammo-250-rounds/)


I've watched all the ARX gel tests on YouTube and the 380 round never over penetrates. In fact, it seems to barely make the FBI minimum 12 inches. Ruger no longer makes the round, Inceptor does and the bullet shape is a little different. The flutes are not as deep as the ARX rounds were. This may actually help it to penetrate further than 12 inches.

The picture below from left to right is Inceptor ARX, Lehigh Xtreme Defense and Black Hills Honey Badger (Lehigh made bullet). The ARX and Xtreme Defense run fine in my CT380 but 1 round out of 20 with the Honey Badger jammed on the feed ramp (likely because the round is long and square at the nose). Lehigh's Xtreme Penetrator (not pictured) also cycles fine.

If you can run a box of 20 through with no issues I would say you're good.

[gale155]

David - Ruger ARX ammo is (was?) made for Ruger by Polycase, and was simply a rebranded version of their Inceptor ARX round. Other than the name on the box the two are identical from what I can tell.

Cynthia - I'm not a big fan of ARX (yet), but I've been impressed with my limited, unscientific backyard results. The increased velocity results mainly from the lighter weight bullet. Based on the tests and reviews I've seen online, over-penetration is certainly not an issue. I don't know about the original Polycase Inceptor, but one cool thing about the Ruger version is there's 25 rounds per box, as opposed to the usual 20.

[DavidR]

David - Ruger ARX ammo is (was?) made for Ruger by Polycase, and was simply a rebranded version of their Inceptor ARX round. Other than the name on the box the two are identical from what I can tell.

Cynthia - I'm not a big fan of ARX (yet), but I've been impressed with my limited, unscientific backyard results. The increased velocity results mainly from the lighter weight bullet. Based on the tests and reviews I've seen online, over-penetration is certainly not an issue. I don't know about the original Polycase Inceptor, but one cool thing about the Ruger version is there's 25 rounds per box, as opposed to the usual 20.

If you compare the picture of the Inceptor ARX round I posted to a picture of the original Polycase or Ruger you will see that the bullet has changed.

Still 25 round boxes.

[lantern]

FWIW Ventura Munitions sells .380 ARX in 250 round bulk boxes. Cost shipped works out about the same as buying regular FMJ ammo by the box Price allows me to use it for range and carry. Works great. It’s also light weight which is nice in a pocket pistol.
ventura-tactical-380-acp-56gr-fragmenting-fluted-rn-new-ammo-250-rounds (https://www.venturamunitions.com/ventura-tactical-380-acp-56gr-fragmenting-fluted-rn-new-ammo-250-rounds/)

Thank you VERY much. Ordered.

[Wlfman13]

Thanks, SlowBurn!

ARX seems to run really well in my P380, and I hope it does the same in my CT380, now that it is broken in. Now, I will have the rounds needed to definitely make sure!

-Wlf

[boscobarbell]

David - Ruger ARX ammo is (was?) made for Ruger by Polycase, and was simply a rebranded version of their Inceptor ARX round. Other than the name on the box the two are identical from what I can tell.

Cynthia - I'm not a big fan of ARX (yet), but I've been impressed with my limited, unscientific backyard results. The increased velocity results mainly from the lighter weight bullet. Based on the tests and reviews I've seen online, over-penetration is certainly not an issue. I don't know about the original Polycase Inceptor, but one cool thing about the Ruger version is there's 25 rounds per box, as opposed to the usual 20.

My concern is what the ARX will do when it encounters bone. I assume a round fired in self-defense will have to get through a bone (sternum, rib, cranium, etc) to get to the organs we need to reach for incapacitation, so it is a genuine concern for any SD ammo. I've seen no definitive response to this question.....

[markman]

FAQ/Incepter Ammunition

https://www.inceptorammo.com/faq/

Is this a frangible round?

Our ARX and RNP™are frangible on hardened steel and fragmenting against dense bone (akin to a jacket being ripped off of a hollow-point that encounters a femur) and certain intermediate barriers. Frangibles are bullets that break up into pieces, none of which total more than 5% of the total weight of the original bullet, upon impact with hardened steel.
What does this mean beyond the controlled environment of ballistics gel and labs? Our bullets achieve solid performance at close distances through certain intermediate barriers like drywall or denim. They also penetrate but fragment through major barriers such as glass or some types of steel, but they are unlikely to over-penetrate through multiple such barriers. Simply put: It’s less likely to go through your walls and into your neighbor’s house.

[Cynthia S]

I've been looking at a lot of testing of the ARX, but in mixed calibers. There seems to be a common thread tho. The harder the material shot thru, the more pieces are generated. There were some tests thru wood and sheet metal where there were only 3-4 pieces generated, and the path was not severely modified, as the pieces were all found in the water jugs at the back side of the gel used.

I think I am OK with this (3 or 4 pieces ), as I doubt I am going to be that accurate a shot in the first place, so some deviation may, if luck is on my side, work well.

But, most sales sites are out of stock. Does this bode poorly for the company's future?

There was a video on using the bullets for reloading, and there was a certain amount of failures depending on rate of burn and propellant load. Slower burn and high load were better. So I'm wondering if the Ventura bulk carton might not be the same propellant and load. Any body test those shells in a CT380 yet?

Cynthia

[gale155]

My concern is what the ARX will do when it encounters bone. I assume a round fired in self-defense will have to get through a bone (sternum, rib, cranium, etc) to get to the organs we need to reach for incapacitation, so it is a genuine concern for any SD ammo. I've seen no definitive response to this question.....

You might find this interesting, sir:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2016/2/15/polycase-inceptor/

As you know from the Seecamp forum, I only shoot 'em...I don't know what make 'em work. ;) Having said that, I would not want to be shot with a round that will penetrate deeply, and break into 3 or 4 pieces after striking dense bone. Of course I wouldn't want to be shot with even a BB gun, so take that for what it's worth. If I were concerned about shooting through barriers, such as glass, drywall or car doors, the ARX would be my last choice. However, like you that's no longer a concern for me.

[gale155]

I've been looking at a lot of testing of the ARX, but in mixed calibers. There seems to be a common thread tho. The harder the material shot thru, the more pieces are generated. There were some tests thru wood and sheet metal where there were only 3-4 pieces generated, and the path was not severely modified, as the pieces were all found in the water jugs at the back side of the gel used.

I think I am OK with this (3 or 4 pieces ), as I doubt I am going to be that accurate a shot in the first place, so some deviation may, if luck is on my side, work well.

But, most sales sites are out of stock. Does this bode poorly for the company's future?

There was a video on using the bullets for reloading, and there was a certain amount of failures depending on rate of burn and propellant load. Slower burn and high load were better. So I'm wondering if the Ventura bulk carton might not be the same propellant and load. Any body test those shells in a CT380 yet?

Cynthia

I like to buy ammo at brick-and-mortar LGS. Although I may now have to boycott them for the recent firing of a manager who physically subdued a gun thief, I've been buying ammo at my local Academy Outdoor and Sports. Last time I was there, which was just a few weeks ago, they had lots of Ruger ARX in .380 on the shelves...$19.99 per box of 25 as I recall.

[DavidR]

Midway has the Inceptor branded ARX.

While I ran a box of 25 successfully through my CT380 I’m still carrying Lehigh Xtreme Defense. Something about that solid copper phillips head that I like but I would be fine carrying the ARX.

[boscobarbell]

I've been looking at a lot of testing of the ARX, but in mixed calibers. There seems to be a common thread tho. The harder the material shot thru, the more pieces are generated. There were some tests thru wood and sheet metal where there were only 3-4 pieces generated, and the path was not severely modified, as the pieces were all found in the water jugs at the back side of the gel used.

I think I am OK with this (3 or 4 pieces ), as I doubt I am going to be that accurate a shot in the first place, so some deviation may, if luck is on my side, work well.

Cynthia

That's interesting...do you have a link to those tests? Any idea on the total distance of penetration for the fragments?

[boscobarbell]

You might find this interesting, sir:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2016/2/15/polycase-inceptor/

As you know from the Seecamp forum, I only shoot 'em...I don't know what make 'em work. ;) Having said that, I would not want to be shot with a round that will penetrate deeply, and break into 3 or 4 pieces after striking dense bone. Of course I wouldn't want to be shot with even a BB gun, so take that for what it's worth. If I were concerned about shooting through barriers, such as glass, drywall or car doors, the ARX would be my last choice. However, like you that's no longer a concern for me.

Thanks...very interesting.

My concern isn't barriers, as you correctly guessed...I'm leaving that kind of stuff to the young guys now!

But I AM a bit worried about the ARX hitting a sternum and then breaking into a few pieces that don't significantly penetrate.

I'm certainly ready to be impressed, because these rounds seem to be just perfect for our micro-guns. But, unless I hear differently, I'm a bit more comforted by the solid metal of the Lehigh/Underwood fluted rounds.

But I remain hopeful....

[gale155]

Thanks...very interesting.

My concern isn't barriers, as you correctly guessed...I'm leaving that kind of stuff to the young guys now!

But I AM a bit worried about the ARX hitting a sternum and then breaking into a few pieces that don't significantly penetrate.

I'm certainly ready to be impressed, because these rounds seem to be just perfect for our micro-guns. But, unless I hear differently, I'm a bit more comforted by the solid metal of the Lehigh/Underwood fluted rounds.

But I remain hopeful....

Here's a review that's a little more entertaining than the average ballistics test, and it involves bone. In fact, it looks like some silly thing I would do in the back yard, but it's well done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftyah3lHqzw&t=193s

I'm still not totally sold on ARX for carry, but I want to be since it's readily available and fairly inexpensive. I wish you could see what it does to my water-filled targets...when I say it blows them up, I'm not exaggerating.

I'm not certain about this, but several years ago I seem to recall some people reporting chunks of the ARX bullet breaking off while feeding, and obviously causing malfunctions as a result. This might have been occurring in just one particular type of pistol...I can't remember the specifics, and can't seem to find anything on it as of late. If I'm remembering correctly, that would be a big concern; however, I've not had a problem or malfunction with it in my RM380 or CW380.

[Cynthia S]

Bosco, you asked about the video, so here it is, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TlBSiIeTCI . Unfortunately it is woefully short of narration. There was originally some indication of using 9mm and .45. But He didn't indicate which was being used, or what exactly was the barrier being used. So, can't make too much of it.

Cynthia

[markman]

While it is the 9mm ARX, this shows it shot thru 4 layers of t-shirt, leather skin, pork chop pecs, ribs, simulated lung tissue, ribs again, then 4 layers of t-shirt again. This test actually shows it over penetrating. How scientific or accurate it is, I really don't know, but it sure is interesting. That part starts about 14:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_CCeb-AbDQ

[DavidR]

I like Paul’s pork chop rib test. Seems more “real world” than gel. I hope he does one with 380.

[Cynthia S]

Very interesting. I like the meat and oranges testing.

I note that you can hear a lot of wind on the microphone. Also, in the last close up of the target, it could be seen fluttering a bit forward and backward. Wondering if the lighter round is more affected by wind.

Cynthia

[gale155]

That's the first video I've seen by this guy (Paul), and he really seems to know his stuff...excellent video. The one thing I would disagree with him on is fiddling around with the sights. In a typical self-defense situation, the shooter is absolutely not going to be using sights, IMHO.

[markman]

Ya, I have to agree 100% with you on that. I can’t help to wonder if the lighter but same diameter 380 rd traveling at a slower velocity, wouldn’t have less penetration to make it just right so it would’nt over penetrate.

I like Paul’s pork chop rib test. Seems more “real world” than gel. I hope he does one with 380.

[boscobarbell]

Thanks for the links...interesting viewing.

I think I'm pretty much sold on these rounds IF they will cycle in my pistols.

I'm going to shoot up the three boxes I bought in a few different pistols and see if they like it. If so, I think it'll be time to stock up on a bunch.

[gale155]

Thanks for the links...interesting viewing.

I think I'm pretty much sold on these rounds IF they will cycle in my pistols.

I'm going to shoot up the three boxes I bought in a few different pistols and see if they like it. If so, I think it'll be time to stock up on a bunch.

I've been trying to figure out what's up with the Ruger branded ARX, which reportedly has been discontinued. Apparently Polycase was bought out by Quantum Ammunition, which is a subsidiary of a group called Quantum Holdings, and Ruger decided not to do business with them. Of course it's possible that Quantum decided not to do business with Ruger. In any event, Quantum Holdings has only been around since 2014.

[markman]

I went and ordered some of this. The cases are stamped "Ruger".


FWIW Ventura Munitions sells .380 ARX in 250 round bulk boxes. Cost shipped works out about the same as buying regular FMJ ammo by the box Price allows me to use it for range and carry. Works great. It’s also light weight which is nice in a pocket pistol.
ventura-tactical-380-acp-56gr-fragmenting-fluted-rn-new-ammo-250-rounds (https://www.venturamunitions.com/ventura-tactical-380-acp-56gr-fragmenting-fluted-rn-new-ammo-250-rounds/)

[markman]

If anyone is interested, this ammo is possibly "Ruger Inceptor ARX" ammo. Here's the ARX I just received from Ventura. The cases are definitely stamped ruger.


FWIW Ventura Munitions sells .380 ARX in 250 round bulk boxes. Cost shipped works out about the same as buying regular FMJ ammo by the box Price allows me to use it for range and carry. Works great. It’s also light weight which is nice in a pocket pistol.
ventura-tactical-380-acp-56gr-fragmenting-fluted-rn-new-ammo-250-rounds (https://www.venturamunitions.com/ventura-tactical-380-acp-56gr-fragmenting-fluted-rn-new-ammo-250-rounds/)

http://i.imgur.com/YCDNfSs.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/YCDNfSs)

[DavidR]

What does the bullet look like?

[markman]

What does the bullet look like?

http://i.imgur.com/V29iaI4.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/V29iaI4)

http://i.imgur.com/He0W8ku.jpg?2 (https://imgur.com/He0W8ku)

http://i.imgur.com/AxqQHbd.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/AxqQHbd)

[gale155]

I e-mailed Ventura and asked about the Ruger stamps on the cases, and promptly got this reply:

Hello Gale,

They were loaded in the same facility with the same components as Ruger for their boxed ARX rounds.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Best regards,

Mike


With this in mind, $87.50 for 250 rounds is one heck of a deal, IMO.

[SlowBurn]

I e-mailed Ventura and asked about the Ruger stamps on the cases, and promptly got this reply:

Hello Gale,

They were loaded in the same facility with the same components as Ruger for their boxed ARX rounds.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Best regards,

Mike


With this in mind, $87.50 for 250 rounds is one heck of a deal, IMO.

Yup

[DavidR]

Thanks for the pictures. Those flutes certainly look bigger than the Inceptor ARX flutes.

https://i.imgur.com/5bsWTOV.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/tutDzaL.jpg?2

[Cynthia S]

Anyone have an idea what shipping is on one box? I don't see any place on their web site where it is indicated and I'm not ready yet to give them my email address. We have a gun show coming up in a week here in Prescott, AZ, and I expect some ammo dealers. It would be nice if Ventura Munitions would make the trip from Las Vegas to Prescott.

Cynthia

[markman]

If you put it in your cart, then veiw your cart, there is a place to estimate shipping and taxes without having to put your info in.


Anyone have an idea what shipping is on one box? I don't see any place on their web site where it is indicated and I'm not ready yet to give them my email address. We have a gun show coming up in a week here in Prescott, AZ, and I expect some ammo dealers. It would be nice if Ventura Munitions would make the trip from Las Vegas to Prescott.

Cynthia

[gale155]

If you put it in your cart, then veiw your cart, there is a place to estimate shipping and taxes without having to put your info in.

I just did that, and to where I live in Missouri shipping is $18.42. Tax is $7.22, bringing the total to $94.72, or 37.8 cents per round.

A 25-round box at my local Academy Outdoor and Sports sells for $19.99, and adding sales tax brings it to about $21.59...or 86 cents per round. So, 250 rounds would cost me about $215 there. I've tried Ruger ARX in both of my .380 pistols, and it's worked flawlessly...this Ventura deal is looking pretty tempting to me at the moment.

[boscobarbell]

Hmmm...I may have to jump at this. At this price, it'd be worth checking out in my micros to see how they like it.

[gale155]

Hmmm...I may have to jump at this. At this price, it'd be worth checking out in my micros to see how they like it.

Haven't fired that many, but it's been flawless in my CW380 and RM380. It's fun shooting water bottles with it, but don't stand too close or you're gonna get wet. :p

[markman]

I haven’t shot any yet either, but It seems to have a bullet profile that looks pretty similar to ball ammo. The pics of the Lehigh/Underwood/Honey Badger have a blunt nose. Even the Inceptor ARX looks to have a slight blunt nose but like DavidR pointed out they also have smaller flutes.

[gale155]

I haven’t shot any yet either, but It seems to have a bullet profile that looks pretty similar to ball ammo. The pics of the Lehigh/Underwood/Honey Badger have a blunt nose. Even the Inceptor ARX looks to have a slight blunt nose but like DavidR pointed out they also have smaller flutes.

The ARX rounds worked fine in my CW380...hopefully others here who decide to try it will have the same experience. They seem to hit extremely hard for a 56gr bullet, which I assume is due to the increased velocity.

[DavidR]

The Inceptor ARX run fine in my CT380.