shoots low

[takem]

I picked up a new cm9 a few days ago. I broke it in today with 200 rounds of various brands and grains of ammo. No hiccups but it shoots low. About 3 inches low at 5 yards. I let two other guys shoot it and got the same result. Any ideas on what to do? I'd like it to be a little closer than that at 5 yards.
Thanks,
Brad

[muggsy]

You are either anticipating recoil and breaking your wrist down, or you aren't using the correct sight picture. The sight picture should look like a dotted i with the dot covering your intended point of impact. A six o'clock hold will result in shots going low. These are combat sights, not target sights. A lot of people are unfamiliar with them.

[takem]

That is the sight picture I used. Shot 3 other handguns with no issues. We tried different grip, stance and looked at the one of those pistol charts and made sure we weren't breaking down, drooping head or pushing forward. Round 1 and round 200 were all low.

[jocko]

ur 3 utter hadguns do not have the loooong trigger that your kahr has. buy a half dozen sanap caps and let someone load ur magazine so u don't know if one or 3 or none are in the magazine. It wills how ur shooting errors fast and furious. Its not the gun. Just sayin

We never readof a kahr onwer shooting high, but most all shooting errors are groups low and if ur a righttie low and left also. Ur Ok just shoot some more, but those snap caps will show u what is goin on.

see a tad more of the front site also will bring um up, but my bet is it anticipation of the BANG thing.

Ihave over 32K rounds thru my PMJ9 and I still anticipate badly and all my shots are low. Some shooters neverr cuddle up to kahrs looooong trigger system.

I have to agree with numnuts on this (muggsy):Amflag2: Just sayin

[takem]

I have snap caps and all I've been doing is dry fire drills in my garage because I couldn't get to the range. I dry fire balancing coins and snap caps on the slide. I feel very comfortable with it.

[takem]

I appreciate the help. Maybe this gun is not for me. It a shame, I liked the little guy. Thanks again.

[addictedhealer]

Take a marker and cover up the dot. Go ol school and treat them like iron. I couldn't get use to them so I swapped mine out for trijicon 3 dot and shoot much much better.

[jocko]

I have snap caps and all I've been doing is dry fire drills in my garage because I couldn't get to the range. I dry fire balancing coins and snap caps on the slide. I feel very comfortable with it.

is what it is. IT IS DRY FIREIN U know there is no bang. random snap caps in with live rounds is a whole new ball game. :Amflag2:

IMO ur moving to fast with an opinion of this gun is four u or not. It is not a target tun, the loooong trigger system is ur only safety on this gun. Takes some time to get used to is. some indeed never master it to their expecatations either. If ur expectiong same hole groups, maybe it is not the gun for u. Its a defense gun that is very small and light kand u will carry it more thanb any utter gun u own. 3" low might seem alot but just get one of those FBI "Q" silhouette targets (bowling pin) and u will see that every shot u shoot is right in that target silhouette. Many here use POA shootng for again it is a defense gun and ur not gonna line up the front and back site and te target in a SHTF scenario. So many here just concentrate on the front site as ur friend and they get damn fast at that method to. again though it is ur call to make, we are here to give recommendations,,, nuttin more.

I think most all forum members will agree that kahrs are not the easiets guns to shoot the kind of groups u might be used to with utter guns, but most stick with it and get very confident with the gun..:Amflag2: Just sayin

[CJB]

Not terribly sorry to say, its not the pistol, but the shooters.

Lets do the math: Off by three inches in five yards. Lets see, five yards is 180 inches. Divide that by 4.5 inch sight radius, and you get 40. Three inches off, divided by 40 and you get .075 inches. Nothing in your pistol is off by that amount.

Keep in mind, at close distance, like 5 yards, you can expect to shoot a little low due to offset of bore to sights, etc.

And, to top it off, I shot horribly low with my PM's when I first got 'em. Was used to nice single action 1911 pulls. Was used to terrible single action Browning HP pulls. I shot a lot low. Took a while to learn to not try to shoot the pistol like the worlds creepiest single action trigger. It works for me when I just give it a nice quick and steady and continuous pull. No tryin to sneak up on its release. That does not work for me - maybe you too?

[mikemc53]

I'm not one to try and talk somebody into keeping something they don't want, so I won't. I will say this though: everything you've been told here is right on. These sights take getting used to but my money is more on the bang twitch. It is way more common than most would ever anticipate. Long DAO triggers are notorious for this.

My experience is almost exclusively with long DAO triggers but I will tell you this about the Kahr. It is so smooth and clean that the length of pull has no negative affect on the performance. I love it and after getting used to the sights, I am pretty darn accurate.

If it's not for you, so be it, but...it isn't the gun.

Also:
Jocko...welcome back (professor is in the house).

[takem]

I'll give it another try and maybe after that I'll try a shorter sight.

[takem]

Thanks for all the help. Most forums would of just bashed me. Ha. It's been a long day of car repairs followed by a new gun not shooting how I'd like.
thanks for the support.

[RRP]

This isn't "most forums".

You've received good advice, here. Yours is a question we've heard many times. Keep an open mind and heed the advice. You'll learn to love this little pistol.

Good luck.

[warbird1]

Some really good advice on this thread. Nothing to add.

[scosgt]

I had the same issue with my CM40. I bought a laser bore sight and there was NOTHING wrong with the gun.
I put on night sights and that, along with concentration, helped immensly

[Alfonse]

I think it took me over 1000 rounds before I could shoot where I thought I should with my PM9. I'm still thinking of changing the sights out though because the stock Kahr sights take me a bit too long to properly acquire. I'm kind of slow on these things though. I've had it four years or so.

[muggsy]

Take a pistol rest to the range and see how well you shoot. You might also allow someone who owns and is experienced with a Kahr pistol test fire your gun to see how well they can shoot it. There have been a few rare cases where the crown of the barrel was not centered which caused the gun not to shoot to point of aim. A condition like that is rather obvious.

[garyb]

At first this can be frustrating, but it is not a major problem and certainly not one to get rid of a gun for. Simply determine if it could be the gun OR the shooter. I had the same problem with my PM at first and it was me getting used to the long trigger. Now I can shoot it very well. Then I had it with my new M&PPRO40 and I thought...here we go again. I was very frustrated. It did turn out to be was the front sight. As recommended by others previously...to verify, bench it. If it is still shooting low, go to the precision dawson's (shorter in height) FO front sight. They have a formula to determine exactly what size sight to purchase. Install it. Adjust it for windage....Problem solved.....happy shooter again. Good luck.

[takem]

Shot the gun some more. I determined it was definitely shooting low. Took some measurements and ordered a sight from dawsons. Tritium sight is nice. I'm right on now. Put a couple hundred more rounds through and I'll be carrying it starting today. Never had a single malfunction by the way. Thanks for the help.

[CJB]

To judge the crown, take the barrel out of the slide. What you're seeing is the normal offset of the cut to make the barrel able to tilt in the slide for cycling and assembly/disassembly.

I cannot see how the OP's pistol is "off" by the amount stated. There is literally not enough room to offset the nose of the barrel .075 inches, or the tail of the barrel by the same amount. In fact, you can't get half that amount offset on each end. Its a design impossibility.

In my range days, when the Beretta 92 was all the rage because the military had just adopted it, shooters bought 'em in droves. A very common, nearly universal characteristic of the 92 is that if you've been shooting a 1911, you're gonna shoot it low in single action. Something about the grip, the trigger curve, the hinged trigger, anticipation, whatever... there were lots of folks who shot it low, and I was one of 'em until I really tried hard and got my hand to do what I wanted after maybe ten or more boxes of ammo.

After getting technique down pretty good, I'd answer customers complaints and shoot their gun, with their ammo, and of course I did ok, having trained a bit. We're talking folks shooting 4 to 6 inches low at 10 yards, and off the paper at 20 yards. My stock response was if it was the gun, I'd grab a brass punch and hammer, and adjust the sight (which wasn't adjustable for elevation...but it sounded good), and if it was the shooter, I'd take the hammer and adjust their trigger finger.....

SHOOT that gun some more.

[gmcjetpilot]

I picked up a new cm9 a few days ago. I broke it in today with 200 rounds
of various brands and grains of ammo. No hiccups but it shoots low. About
3 inches low at 5 yards. I let two other guys shoot it and got the same
result. Any ideas on what to do? I'd like it to be a little closer than that at
5 yards. Thanks, BradI am realizing the same problem and was just about to start a new
thread. It is not anticipation. I used the bench and a rest and squeezed
the trigger slow. I don't have any issue with my Glock 26. I did not notice
the first 200 rounds because I was shooting closer (15-21 feet) and just
getting use to it. I was happy with accuracy. However at 28 feet I noticed
I was consistently low. I consciously put the dot over and slight above the
desired impact point, and than I was consistently where I wanted to be.

True, some "iron sights" or plain sights will have different sight pictures.
One sight requires you to cover the target (impact point) with front sight.
Another type has you put target (impact point) just above the front sight.
My Ruger MkIII 22 Pistol is like this, and I was shooting consistently high.
The iron sights on the Ruger does have fully L/R and UP/DN adjustment.
With fixed sights like the Kahr, one size does not fit all.

This is my plan. I am going to shave the front sight down and move the
white marking down with some paint. This will move the barrel up. My
Ruger LC9 had WAY longer pull with some stacking, but had way better
sights. I had no low issue with the Ruger. To be fair my "issue" with the
Kahr is small, but I was going for accuracy today, and I can tell the sights
could be tweaked. Also the front sight is too wide, and really does block
the target. Bottom line the stock sights are so so... serviceable, acceptable,
usable but not great. You can compensate, but why. Fix it the way you
like to be more consistant with your other guns.

[garyb]

Shot the gun some more. I determined it was definitely shooting low. Took some measurements and ordered a sight from dawsons. Tritium sight is nice. I'm right on now. Put a couple hundred more rounds through and I'll be carrying it starting today. Never had a single malfunction by the way. Thanks for the help.



Some may feel it was the you and not the gun. While that may be possible, I've not found it to be true every time. I had a high front sight on my M&P and quickly diagnosed and replaced it with a lower front sight from Dawson. Problem solved. Glad you found your way too. Good luck with that new gun.

[takem]

thanks. My original post was off. Not on purpose. I didn't put a tape measure on it or bring the targets home. After the second trip to the range with a tape it was 1.5-2" inches low. Using dawsons formula I knew the lowest sight they had (.135") would put me close so I took the chance. I've put quite a bit of ammo through it now so between the lower sight and getting used to it I feel quite comfortable with it. It's right on when covering the bullseye with the dot.

On my last range trip a guy had a pm9 with stock sights and it shot POA for me, further confirming my low shooting gun.

[takem]

I am realizing the same problem and was just about to start a new
thread. It is not anticipation. I used the bench and a rest and squeezed
the trigger slow. I don't have any issue with my Glock 26. I did not notice
the first 200 rounds because I was shooting closer (15-21 feet) and just
getting use to it. I was happy with accuracy. However at 28 feet I noticed
I was consistently low. I consciously put the dot over and slight above the
desired impact point, and than I was consistently where I wanted to be.

True, some "iron sights" or plain sights will have different sight pictures.
One sight requires you to cover the target (impact point) with front sight.
Another type has you put target (impact point) just above the front sight.
My Ruger MkIII 22 Pistol is like this, and I was shooting consistently high.
The iron sights on the Ruger does have fully L/R and UP/DN adjustment.
With fixed sights like the Kahr, one size does not fit all.

This is my plan. I am going to shave the front sight down and move the
white marking down with some paint. This will move the barrel up. My
Ruger LC9 had WAY longer pull with some stacking, but had way better
sights. I had no low issue with the Ruger. To be fair my "issue" with the
Kahr is small, but I was going for accuracy today, and I can tell the sights
could be tweaked. Also the front sight is too wide, and really does block
the target. Bottom line the stock sights are so so... serviceable, acceptable,
usable but not great. You can compensate, but why. Fix it the way you
like to be more consistant with your other guns.

you might like the dawsons sights. They make different widths and heights.

[gmcjetpilot]

you might like the dawsons sights. They make different widths and heights.Yep thanks for the tip. I called them, $25 for plain sight, $39 for fiber
optic and $49 for tritium.... The thinnest they have is 0.10". The stock
front sight is 0.145" which is too thick for my taste. Frankly I am thinking
of whittling the stock front sight down my self.

Edit: I taped the slide with blue painters tape (non-sticky) to protect it.
The picture shows gun assembled without tape; I used a strip of course
sandpaper on table, made a Styrofoam tool to hold the slide at the right

angle (to match taper of front sight). I slid the front sight back & forth. I
folded small blocks of sandpaper and went at the sides to make thinner.
Long story short I shaved front sight height down Approx. 0.050", width
to 0.120" thick. Then I painted a white stripe. It will be closer on the range.


All pictures are of the same gun, my gun, even though one picture shows
the back slide panel black (due to shadow) and the other silver. It is
indeed sliver. I may get rid of white strip on back sight and put two dots
on side. "Combat" sights is the style of the Kahr sight and don't care for.

http://imageshack.com/a/img689/2498/ijlq.png

[takem]

cool. That will definitely do the trick.

[jocko]

probalby sights fit from the box 95% f all shooters. The utter 5% have to make adjustments. Shootng style, sight picture plays alot to. Everyone seems to have their own style of what works for them.I guess I ckan say I never shoot my PMJ9's good anyhow and I used POA all the tme now to for I realize it is a defense gun and not a target gun. so for me fast site acquistion is #1 with me. Just sayin

[gmcjetpilot]

probalby sights fit from the box 95% f all shooters. The utter 5% have to
make adjustments. Shootng style, sight picture plays alot to. Everyone
seems to have their own style of what works for them.I guess I ckan say I
never shoot my PMJ9's good anyhow and I used POA all the tme now to
for I realize it is a defense gun and not a target gun. so for me fast site
acquistion is #1 with me. Just sayinWhere do you get your statistics? Really you pulled it out the air. While we
are making up statistics, 5% of shooters care about the most accurate
sights and shoot well enough to notice when they are off. Just saying. :D

I do agree, fast acquisition is important and the BIG FAT tall stock front
sight is not great. In fact if you are within 9-15 feet, as many self defense
gun fights happen, you might just shoot same-way-same-day, pulling the
trigger without sighting, get the hell off me shots.

[jocko]

yup I pulled that out of the air, but based on being on this forum since day one, I have read of but less than handful that had to do what u did. Not sure in mypost that I even stated tha twhat u did was the wrong thing to do. No sense in getting ur dandruff up IMO. U stated ur position, I merely stated mine ...

Here is one statistic that u can take to the bank This forum has over 275,000 posts, now they can a post of anyting an owner wants, so if we had 5% with this site probloem that would make 13,750 posts concerning this bad site. I stand corrected on my 90%. I wold say it is closer to 99%. Just sayin

[downtownv]

Where do you get your statistics? Really you pulled it out the air. While we
are making up statistics, 5% of shooters care about the most accurate
sights and shoot well enough to notice when they are off. Just saying. :D


My daddy used to say, never Pisz on a Rattlesnake! And he knew coming from Paterson, NJ!

[JimC]

It has been said...There are lies, damned lies and statistics. ;)

[gmcjetpilot]

yup I pulled that out of the air, but based on being on this forum since
day one, I have read of but less than handful that had to do what u did.
Not sure in mypost that I even stated tha twhat u did was the wrong thing
to do. No sense in getting ur dandruff up IMO. U stated ur position, I
merely stated mine ...

Here is one statistic that u can take to the bank This forum has over
275,000 posts, now they can a post of anyting an owner wants, so if we
had 5% with this site probloem that would make 13,750 posts concerning
this bad site. I stand corrected on my 90%. I wold say it is closer to 99%. Again just because it is not posted here, does not mean much. There are
+100 thousand of these guns around the world. This is a small group
here, and many on the forum have issues, just don't post, know it or care.
Being of a technical background, there is no data. With that said I loved
my Ruger LC9 three dot sight. I sold it for the Kahr CM9 (wanted something
smaller and did not want to do a trigger job on LC9).

I did not like stock Glock sight either, with the white horse shoe rear
sight, so I made a DIY change, making it "three dot", two on back,
one on front sight, to line up for up/down, left/right. I also put "three-dot"
markings on my Ruger MKIII. Most aftermarket sights use three dots.
Here is my video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGDFJ5wdBgs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGDFJ5wdBgs)

With that said I have blacked out the rear mark. This is a work in
progress. I plan on filling in part of the recessed area on the back sight.
http://imageshack.com/a/img11/9324/0d2s.png

I prefer the one far left. 2nd from left is Glock. My video shows how I
converted the stock Glock horse shoe sight to one like a three dot, far left.
The 3rd from right is like the Kahr but it is an ON impact front sight, not
below and uses wide white stripe on rear sight like 2nd from right.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Enhanced_contrast_open_sights.svg/611px-Enhanced_contrast_open_sights.svg.png

Kahr sight has two issues I don't care for:
1) BIG WHITE mark on the rear sight makes it more difficult to focus on
front sight as you are supposed to do. (see Pic. below)
2) Kahr front sight is so wide it fills the back sight and blocks so impact
point is completely hidden. I thinned my front sight on my CM9. I'm going
to go to 0.10 wide. Picture below is thin front sight, unlike fat Kahr front sight.
http://mykecole.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/correct-sight-alignment-300x240.jpg