Ammo that Feeds or Fails (Pictures Please)

[AFCop]

I am experiencing failure to feed in my K40 with Federal 180 grain Jacketed Hollow Point. The bullet is pretty blunt and jams on the feed ramp, not sure if I will be able to make my Kahr and this round play well together but I'll keep trying.

I will also look for a bullet shape that slides up the ramp more dependably.

What rounds work well for you? Please post pictures of the bullets that feed well and/or those that haven't.

Thank you

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv249/APBROWN70/Kahr%20K40/th_Federal180grain.jpg (http://s688.photobucket.com/user/APBROWN70/media/Kahr%20K40/Federal180grain.jpg.html)

I've been able to reduce the malfunctions but still have about 3 out of 50 get hung on the polished feed ramp like this. Although it happened toward the end of the session and the ramp had become blackened with soot.
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv249/APBROWN70/Kahr%20K40/th_Fed180jamonramp.jpg (http://s688.photobucket.com/user/APBROWN70/media/Kahr%20K40/Fed180jamonramp.jpg.html)

[sas PM9]

AFC:

I have no experience with the .40S&W, but a few answered questions might help the next person formulate a reply.

-At what round count in the magazine does the jam occur?
-Is the feed ramp highly polished?
-Is the weapon lubricated according to the "lube stickie procedure"?
-With the magazine out and empty does the follower move smoothly inside of the magazine?
-Are the recoil springs fresh and full strength or old and tired?

HTH.

-steve

[muggsy]

Instead of trying to make this particular round work, why not look for an SD round that will feed reliably. There are plenty of good SD rounds out there. If it consistently happens toward the end of the session it could just be shooter fatigue and a dirty gun. To be honest, I can remember the last time that I fired 50 rounds in a SD situation. :)

[AFCop]

AFC:

I have no experience with the .40S&W, but a few answered questions might help the next person formulate a reply.

-At what round count in the magazine does the jam occur?
Didnt count them, next time I will do that.
-Is the feed ramp highly polished?
Yes, highly polished.
-Is the weapon lubricated according to the "lube stickie procedure"?
Yes, I ran it wet and according to the lube chart.
-With the magazine out and empty does the follower move smoothly inside of the magazine?
Yes, I sanded the follower, it passes smoothly past the mag catch.
-Are the recoil springs fresh and full strength or old and tired?
I have a new spring for it and will try that next.

HTH.

-steve

Thank you for the suggestions, I really am curious as to what rounds and bullet shape work reliably for other K40 shooters.

[AFCop]

Instead of trying to make this particular round work, why not look for an SD round that will feed reliably. There are plenty of good SD rounds out there. If it consistently happens toward the end of the session it could just be shooter fatigue and a dirty gun. To be honest, I can remember the last time that I fired 50 rounds in a SD situation. :)

I want to see if this round will work reliably in the K40 as it is my duty ammo and I have ready access to it. If I have to, I will purchase different ammo, but I want to eliminate all other causes for the FTF before I blame the ammo/weapon compatability.

[gb6491]

Looks to me like the slide stop might be interfering with that bullet's profile.
If it were my pistol, I'd probably tape off the frame to protect it, then insert just the slide stop pin (leaving the lever completely outside the frame) and see if I could hand cycle some of those rounds through it that way. If they did cycle, I'd be inclined to take a little material off the stop to see if that would let the rounds cycle with the lever inserted. Since I'd have to be careful about where and how much material I'd need to remove so that the stop would still function correctly, I might buy a spare stop first.
http://i42.tinypic.com/2po9jkw.jpg
Regards,
Greg

[mtnwinds]

I agree with Greg. It looks to me like something is pushing your cartridge to the right and the most likely culprit is the slide lock. I feed that same round in my K40 with no problem.

[AFCop]

I agree with Greg. It looks to me like something is pushing your cartridge to the right and the most likely culprit is the slide lock. I feed that same round in my K40 with no problem.

I agree, it looks like the round is pushed to the right and binding on the right side of the ramp. I also agree that the rounds are possibly bumping the slide lock as the slide occasionally locks back with rounds in the magazine.

However the weapon feeds 100% when manually cycled and the rounds push straight in. Judging from this view of the weapon, the slide stop shouldnt affect the round that is in line for feeding.

I have a spare slide stop and have been sanding the current slide stop in an attempt to stop the premature slide lock. I may just sand it off/flush and see how it does.

What are your thoughts?

(Click for a larger picture)

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv249/APBROWN70/Kahr%20K40/th_180FederalSlideStopInternal.jpg (http://s688.photobucket.com/user/APBROWN70/media/Kahr%20K40/180FederalSlideStopInternal.jpg.html)

[jocko]

well te worst one can do is ruin one slide stop lev er. My thoughts are also, if one would write kahr and explain itit to them they might send u a new slide strop lever to try. I could just hav eone a tad out of spec, .If not then u have a spare slide stop andt you can do the mod that Gregg is showing u.

Persoally, if it was my gu and doin OKJ with utter brand, I would just stay awaqy from thet one problme round. to many great 40 cal round sout ther eto get to excieted about one not doing well. Just my 21 cents. It is very easy to test to see if youyr rounds are hitting the lever to..

[AFCop]

well te worst one can do is ruin one slide stop lev er. My thoughts are also, if one would write kahr and explain itit to them they might send u a new slide strop lever to try. I could just hav eone a tad out of spec, .If not then u have a spare slide stop andt you can do the mod that Gregg is showing u.

Persoally, if it was my gu and doin OKJ with utter brand, I would just stay awaqy from thet one problme round. to many great 40 cal round sout ther eto get to excieted about one not doing well. Just my 21 cents. It is very easy to test to see if youyr rounds are hitting the lever to..

I have writen to Kahr which is how I aquired the spare slide stop. I have been slowly making the modification to the stop and testing it as suggested.

I honestly don't know if the malfunctions are caused by this ammo as this is the only round I have tried. I have a stock pile of the Federal 180 but will try another round and see how it does. Thanks, I will keep you all posted.

[AFCop]

Looks to me like the slide stop might be interfering with that bullet's profile.
If it were my pistol, I'd probably tape off the frame to protect it, then insert just the slide stop pin (leaving the lever completely outside the frame) and see if I could hand cycle some of those rounds through it that way. If they did cycle, I'd be inclined to take a little material off the stop to see if that would let the rounds cycle with the lever inserted. Since I'd have to be careful about where and how much material I'd need to remove so that the stop would still function correctly, I might buy a spare stop first.
http://i42.tinypic.com/2po9jkw.jpg
Regards,
Greg

Thanks Greg. The K40 slide stop is different, but I have been sanding and polishing as you describe here. It is almost to a point where it wont lock back on empty but the rounds still occasionaly bump it up for a premature slide lock. I'll keep playing with it and let you know how it goes.

[muggsy]

You might also want to see how easily a round slips under the extractor. That could also be contributing to the problem. Just a thought.

[AFCop]

You might also want to see how easily a round slips under the extractor. That could also be contributing to the problem. Just a thought.

The rounds seem to pop up under the extractor normally. I assembled the pistol with out the spring and guide rod and slowly cycled the slide several times with a full magazine. It runs like a fine machine in slow motion.

I am starting to think the problem lies in the magazine. When it fails to feed the rounds are pointed down and caught on the feed ramp. When I manually cycle the weapon the rounds are practically lined strait up with the barrel and barely need the feed ramp at all.
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv249/APBROWN70/K40BarrelAmmoalignment.jpg (http://s688.photobucket.com/user/APBROWN70/media/K40BarrelAmmoalignment.jpg.html)

I dont know what is causing the round to tip down and jam during firing. The followers all pass smooth by the mag catch.
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv249/APBROWN70/Kahr%20K40/Fed180jamonramp.jpg (http://s688.photobucket.com/user/APBROWN70/media/Kahr%20K40/Fed180jamonramp.jpg.html)

[mtnwinds]

AFC, do you have more than 1 magazine? I'm wondering if the feed lips of your magazine might be part of the problem. I have 3 magazines and they all feed that cartridge just fine.

Just to clarify regarding the pic showing the round angled off to the right, is that round jammed in that position?

How about the pic showing the round partially inserted into the chamber; is that round jammed?

A weak magazine spring will cause the round to tip down and jam on the feed ramp.

[JERRY]

kahr magazines have been the culprit for many failures with these pistols. this is evident by many reports even from learned members here, yet there are no plans from kahr to fix this.

[AFCop]

AFC, do you have more than 1 magazine? I'm wondering if the feed lips of your magazine might be part of the problem. I have 3 magazines and they all feed that cartridge just fine.

Just to clarify regarding the pic showing the round angled off to the right, is that round jammed in that position?

How about the pic showing the round partially inserted into the chamber; is that round jammed?

A weak magazine spring will cause the round to tip down and jam on the feed ramp.

The pic showing the round angled to the right is jammed. After I took that picture, I pulled the slide to the rear the round popped up into place, I released the slide and it loaded as normal.

The other picture is not of a jam, the slide is locked back. I was just showing that the rounds are in proper allignment and ready to go into the chamber.

What do you think could be wrong with the feed lips? How would I check that?

I will buy another magazine and also replace the springs in the two that I have. Thank you for your reassurance that this round will work.

[AFCop]

Could it be that the magazine catch is restricting the bullets from moving up and causing the top round to tilt down as it is loaded?

I smoothed the mag follower but is sure looks like the rounds are awfully close to the mag catch opening.

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv249/APBROWN70/Kahr%20K40/th_Magazine.jpg (http://s688.photobucket.com/user/APBROWN70/media/Kahr%20K40/Magazine.jpg.html)

[JERRY]

Could it be that the magazine catch is restricting the bullets from moving up and causing the top round to tilt down as it is loaded?

I smoothed the mag follower but is sure looks like the rounds are awfully close to the mag catch opening.

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv249/APBROWN70/Kahr%20K40/th_Magazine.jpg (http://s688.photobucket.com/user/APBROWN70/media/Kahr%20K40/Magazine.jpg.html)





again, this is a magazine issue. notice how you can easily nose dive the top round in your magazine with your finger/thumb... this problem has been eliminated in average quality 1911s by using Wilson combat magazines....

[AFCop]

again, this is a magazine issue. notice how you can easily nose dive the top round in your magazine with your finger/thumb... this problem has been eliminated in average quality 1911s by using Wilson combat magazines....

Is there a fix?

[JERRY]

Is there a fix?



not without properly redesigned magazines from the beginning. you might get lucky by machining enough here and there to make things run rights....


while im sure there are more good guns out there than there are bad ones, the bad ones usually have a magazine issue. because the magazine design hasn't been changed it takes machining on the feed-ramp and other places to compensate.


I really wish Kahr would get somebody else to make their magazines.

[JERRY]

I agree, it looks like the round is pushed to the right and binding on the right side of the ramp. I also agree that the rounds are possibly bumping the slide lock as the slide occasionally locks back with rounds in the magazine.

However the weapon feeds 100% when manually cycled and the rounds push straight in. Judging from this view of the weapon, the slide stop shouldnt affect the round that is in line for feeding.

I have a spare slide stop and have been sanding the current slide stop in an attempt to stop the premature slide lock. I may just sand it off/flush and see how it does.

What are your thoughts?

(Click for a larger picture)

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv249/APBROWN70/Kahr%20K40/th_180FederalSlideStopInternal.jpg (http://s688.photobucket.com/user/APBROWN70/media/Kahr%20K40/180FederalSlideStopInternal.jpg.html)


this picture shows the slide stop is not anywhere in contact with the round that is to be fed into the chamber. I would eliminate the slide stop as the culprit.


bent magazine lips will allow a round to move out of alignment as will a poorly made follower. check to see if the magazine lips and body are concentric. I still say its the magazine.

[AFCop]

bent magazine lips will allow a round to move out of alignment as will a poorly made follower. check to see if the magazine lips and body are concentric. I still say its the magazine.

The magazine lips dont appear bent. They line up straight with the shell casing and also look parallel to each other.

[mtnwinds]

AFC, I'll bet if you replace the magazine spring that round will feed. After learning that the round angled to the right is a jam, I no longer think the slide lock if causing your problem. Like I said, I've fed that round from every one of my 3 magazines & yours will eventually work also. That round is nose diving into the ramp and being pushed to the right by the slide. I'd be willing to bet joco's Harley on it!

[mtnwinds]

Oops, I may have been premature in my assessment. Wouldn't be the first time. I stumbled on this thread (http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=121954&highlight=definitive) on a 1911 forum and think it may shed some light on what's going on with your pistol AFC. We've been focusing on the magazine or the slide lock when they may actually only be symptoms pointing to the real problem.

The problem may be that Kahr is not maintaining a high enough level of quality control in machining either the barrel or the frame. Since the barrels are made in Germany (Walther?) I suspect the problem lies with the machining of the frame.

The bottom line is that the various angles discussed in the above thread have to be maintained in order to insure correct feeding. Obviously, the angles would be different for Kahr than they are for a 1911. I don't know if anyone has a print showing the comparable angles for Kahr. Here's the print for the 1911.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk89/mtnwinds/1911caspianfeedrampspec3ky.jpg

Perhaps we could do some measuring of our K40 pistols and see what variances we come up with?

The author of the pertinent post says, "I strive to build guns that function with any quality ammo, delivered via any quality magazine. Some manufacturers and smiffs suggest a short list of ammo through an even shorter list of magazines."

These Kahr pistols have to meet that basic standard to be considered 'quality pistols'. I will never keep a pistol that has to be limited to only certain ammo or certain magazines.

One way to determine if it's your barrel or frame is to send me your barrel & I'll shoot it in my frame. If it works, we know the problem is your frame; if it doesn't it is most likely the barrel. I could then send you my barrel to see if it works in your frame.

[berettabone]

The noses on the ammo you are using, do look very blunt in the picture. I use the Fed HST tactical in 9mm, and the noses are more tapered.

[jocko]

Oops, I may have been premature in my assessment. Wouldn't be the first time. I stumbled on this thread (http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=121954&highlight=definitive) on a 1911 forum and think it may shed some light on what's going on with your pistol AFC. We've been focusing on the magazine or the slide lock when they may actually only be symptoms pointing to the real problem.

The problem may be that Kahr is not maintaining a high enough level of quality control in machining either the barrel or the frame. Since the barrels are made in Germany (Walther?) I suspect the problem lies with the machining of the frame.

The bottom line is that the various angles discussed in the above thread have to be maintained in order to insure correct feeding. Obviously, the angles would be different for Kahr than they are for a 1911. I don't know if anyone has a print showing the comparable angles for Kahr. Here's the print for the 1911.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk89/mtnwinds/1911caspianfeedrampspec3ky.jpg

Perhaps we could do some measuring of our K40 pistols and see what variances we come up with?

The author of the pertinent post says, "I strive to build guns that function with any quality ammo, delivered via any quality magazine. Some manufacturers and smiffs suggest a short list of ammo through an even shorter list of magazines."

These Kahr pistols have to meet that basic standard to be considered 'quality pistols'. I will never keep a pistol that has to be limited to only certain ammo or certain magazines.

One way to determine if it's your barrel or frame is to send me your barrel & I'll shoot it in my frame. If it works, we know the problem is your frame; if it doesn't it is most likely the barrel. I could then send you my barrel to see if it works in your frame.

are not made in germany. They come to Kahr in 3ft blanks bored and rifled by Lothar but kahr does the actual machining of the barrel as to how we see it today Just sayin

No doubt u would never own a Rohbaugh R9 then, or for that matter the Kimber solo..:amflag:

[mtnwinds]

You got that right, Jocko. I never would own either of those pistols. Any pistol that has to have a special diet is not going to find a home with me. I know a lot of folks like Kimber but I got my fill of them many years ago.

Didn't know that about the barrels. I had read somewhere that they were made be Walther. Appreciate the information.

A quality firearm should reliably feed any quality ammo. Period. The fact that mine does and AFC's does not clearly points to a quality control issue. His pistol is expensive, good looking, and unreliable. A Hi-Point is cheap, ugly, and reliable. So, what's the difference between AFC's expensive K40 and a $150.00 Hi Point? The Hi-Point is reliable. Read this review! (http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/handgun_reviews_hipoint_100605/) How can the folks at Hi-Point get it right while Kahr struggles?

The only reason I'm working with my Kahr pistols is because they seem to be the best available single stack pistols with features that I want. I won't know for a while yet whether or not Kahr pistols will remain in my inventory but it's looking good for the CW9. While my K40 reliably eats whatever I feed it, it is the only pistol I've ever fired that hurts my fingers and I will probably be sending it down the road. I haven't had my CW45 long enough to form an opinion yet.

To me there is nothing magical about a name whether it's Colt, Kimber, Kahr, or any gun with 'snob' appeal. AFC has a right to expect that his K40 will feed a common duty round. To tell him to accept that it won't and he should use some other style of ammunition is ludicrous. If the emperor has no clothes it needs to be exposed, not covered up! Just my 2¢.

[tony k]

Is there any copper discoloring on the slide lock? If there is, then bullets are definately contacting it and getting deflected as they cycle.

Maybe try cycling a few mags by hand then check for copper marks.