Kahr Pistols - Poetry in Motion

[muggsy]

Kahr pistols remind me of this poem.

There was a little girl
Who had a little curl
Right in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good
She was very very good
But when she was bad she was horrid.

It seems to me that we are spending far too much time trying to straighten
out someone's misbehaving Kahr Pistol instead of having fun shooting them. The same problems keep reoccurring with regularity. Every new gun has teething problems, but generally those problems are resolved within a few months of the start of production. Kahr's problems seem to go on forever. No one has been a bigger supporter of the brand than I've been, but even I am beginning to lose faith. The basic design of the gun is solid, but quality control seems to go wanting and customer service could also use improvement as well. Would someone please try to restore my faith.

[SGT5711]

My gunsmith said when Kahr first began producing pistols, you could hardly find a better one, but he thinks the company grew too big too fast, and the quality has suffered some.

[hardluk1]

I have never owned a bad firearm. I did buy KT p-11 then went back before round one was fired but came back ready to run and some years later its still fine and been carried buy a son-in-law for a couple years.


The only kahr issue I see that should not happen at all is the feed ramp hitting the followers. Just should not happen.


I have 3 poly kahrs I have bought over almost 4 years and have had no issues with mine at all. No Racking issues, no ammo falling from mags , no problems using longer mags being used in pistols than its designed for no broken followers. Just 3 pistols when bought and cleaned up and lubed that go's bang ever time . My first kahr was a problem pistol for another owner but not for me. Even during the break-in time I run around 500 rounds thru any and ever pistol I buy and these did all 500 rounds with out any extra cleaning or lubing and no racking problems !! Now maybe if I was to buy one more I may find that problem pistol but at this point they have worked like they should.


But that one more pistol is going to be a R51 remmy not a kahr , so time well tell if that's my problem pistol or not . But my kahrs , I trust completely like ever other handgun I have ever bought.

[muggsy]

Magazine springs installed backwards, failures to feed, failures to go into battery, nose dive jambs, failure to lock back, premature lock back, cracked magazines, broken followers, magazines that won't drop free, magazines that drop free before they are empty, light strikes, triggers that fail to reset, strikers that won't release, triggers that bottom out against the frame, brass to face, recoil spring nuts that take flight, triggers with a hitch. Somehow I think that Kahr can do better than that.

[berettabone]

I agree, but we need to bark to the right crowd. I personally have had NO issues.

[Barth]

My MK40 Elite is truly a work of art.
I really believe that as any/all manufacturers try to meet low price points
then quality suffers.
That's just the way it is.

IMHO - the high end Kahr guns remain some of the best available.

[muggsy]

There is nothing low about the price point of a PM9 or a P380. When you try to capture a share of the lower price point market the gun had better perform or the only thing that's accomplished is ruining your good reputation. The basic locked breech magazine fed design dates back to 1911.

[berettabone]

If you pay attention to other manufacturers, they all seem to be having quality/performance issues. Springfield, S&W, Kimber....cheap to expensive. With so many people clammering to purchase firearms, quality has taken a step back. ALL of the manufacturers should take a look at what goes out the door. Currently, they don't seem to care. Some people just don't read their manual, or follow break in procedures, which I think causes some of these so called problems. When I hear someone say, it should shoot right out of the box, I am a bit wary. Should at least clean the thing first?

[RevRay]

I think it's probably combination of things that are creating the perfect storm in your mind. Some of it is probably lots of people like me who never knew anything about guns coming into the market in the last year or so. In my case I took the time to learn stuff on here and my 3 Kahrs (all used) have all been great. But I've noticed a lot of people on here who seem to aren't willing to take the time to learn first. In addition, I think trying to appeal to the lower end market is always going to run a risk. It's hard to please people who want to eat steak but only pay for peanutbutter. And lastly, I really do think that the old adage about mostly hearing from people with problems on the forum is true ... and after a while the drip, drip, drip, can get to you. Could Kahr improve customer service, etc. ... probably. But in the end, the real question is ... Muggsy, how do you like your Kahrs?

[chrish]

With 3 completely perfect 100% functioning Kahr's under my belt...no complaints. Bit I agree muggsy, something is going on that doesn't historically track with Kahr. At this point, I've not really been able to decide whether its A) more gun buyers therefore more Kahrs have flooded out there and you always seem complaints vs praise, so we get an influx of issues at places like this forum or B) more gun buyers therefore more Kahr production and getting stuff out the door faster and less QC as a result.


But either way, I think a lot of what's been showing up here lately has been LESS of the 'user error' or 'user training' issues and more of real gun issues. What's causing it, the jury is still out.

[jocko]

Well there is no doubt that kahr has some sore of a follower // feed ramp issue with a very small percentage of their guns. Awhile back ift was busted backs of magazines. I think that has been basically put to bed . The follower issues will get corrected, I have no doubt. Mean while flame away if it akes u feel better. IMO it wold be far better to flame kahr directly with ur complaints than this forum , as we can't do jack sh!t about it and although maybe kahr does read this forum, nuttin is better than a letter in the mail politecally telling them of some issues..

[bob98366]

I also follow the S&W M&P forum. While there are more "mine shoots great" posts, there are plenty of "mine has this problem" ones. So, Kahr is not unique.

The economic pressures on mass production firearms companies are horrific. I would doubt that there is much slack in the currently designed production cycle to allow a rigorous test of each and every pistol.

But, I would prefer Kahr to make a strategic change to their business model to test each pistol better. Simply loading a full magazine and ensuring the pistol loads, fires and ejects all rounds properly would go a long way to reduce problem pistols before they leave the factory.

Even better would be to also improve their quality checks at each stage of manufacture to quickly identify the source of a problem and fix it promptly at the root cause. Their overall costs in the long term would actually reduce (less rework, less warranty costs, higher customer and dealer reputation, etc.).

[jocko]

kahr claims they shoot two magazines per gun in testing.

[sas PM9]

Muggsy:

I hope that my experience with Kahr improves your mood.

Not all of us that post here have had serious problems with our guns, my two year old PM9 worked perfectly right out of the box. Buds from whom I bought it has a program that allows you a half hour of indoor range time with the purchase, so I fired fifty rounds right out of the box, zero problems.

I was so satisfied with my PM that I wanted to purchase a step-brother for it and I just bought a CM9. I did the complete fluff and buff on it before firing the first round through it; for no particular reason other than I thought that the feed ramp could be a little more shiny. It also has been perfectly reliable for me. So not all of us are having problems.

That said, I understand the pain felt by other Kahr owners that are having problems. I attempt to post constructive suggestions when I think that I have something to contribute. Hopefully Kahr will improve their output so that no factory returns are necessary.

-steve

-steve

[muggsy]

I think it's probably combination of things that are creating the perfect storm in your mind. Some of it is probably lots of people like me who never knew anything about guns coming into the market in the last year or so. In my case I took the time to learn stuff on here and my 3 Kahrs (all used) have all been great. But I've noticed a lot of people on here who seem to aren't willing to take the time to learn first. In addition, I think trying to appeal to the lower end market is always going to run a risk. It's hard to please people who want to eat steak but only pay for peanutbutter. And lastly, I really do think that the old adage about mostly hearing from people with problems on the forum is true ... and after a while the drip, drip, drip, can get to you. Could Kahr improve customer service, etc. ... probably. But in the end, the real question is ... Muggsy, how do you like your Kahrs?

I had a few minor problems during the break in period, but all of them were easily resolved. For the most part my Kahrs have performed well. It's just that I be hard pressed to recommend Kahr with all of the recent issues that they've been having. There's no excuse for poor quality control or poor service and the poor service response bothers me more than the other issues. I know that you can't please everyone, but you should be able to please a few. Maybe it's just the weather that has me down. I'm getting grumpy in my old age.

[WMac19]

I have to admit that I had to think long and hard about another Kahr purchase due to the reported problems.

If random Kahrs were having random issues I'd be less concerned, maybe. Perhaps it's a mix of concern and annoyance with regard to the broken follower issue. I understand that it's a relatively small percentage of guns with this problem but the fact that the problem has been persistent, shakes my confidence.

In any event, my PM9 has been flawless so I went ahead and bought a PM40 (Black slide w/night sights) on Gunbroker. Awaiting delivery to my FFL.

Fingers crossed...

[b4uqzme]

Muggs,

I certainly haven't lost faith. But I agree we spend a lot of time rehashing problems. I just think that's the nature of a forum more than an indication of overall quality. I think we've all seen so many great guns that we've set the bar very high. We expect perfection...without any effort from the owner. IMHO it is not unreasonable to work through some hiccups during break-in. Everything I've read gives me confidence that a Kahr pistol will achieve perfection and they are worth the effort.

With that said, I also think polymer is a more difficult medium for firearms...with inherent potential for issues. Thus the need for diligence and patience on the owner's part. Most LGS if talked with point to the addition of polymer models as the beginning of quality concerns.

So if you are looking for perfection out of the box, get a steel Kahr. If you want my humble recommendation for the best carry 9mm out there, get a cm9.

[JimC]

Magazine springs installed backwards, failures to feed, failures to go into battery, nose dive jambs, failure to lock back, premature lock back, cracked magazines, broken followers, magazines that won't drop free, magazines that drop free before they are empty, light strikes, triggers that fail to reset, strikers that won't release, triggers that bottom out against the frame, brass to face, recoil spring nuts that take flight, triggers with a hitch. Somehow I think that Kahr can do better than that.

Keep the faith muggsy, things will get better, they can't get any worse. :)

[JimC]

My MK40 Elite is truly a work of art.
I really believe that as any/all manufacturers try to meet low price points
then quality suffers.
That's just the way it is.

IMHO - the high end Kahr guns remain some of the best available.

There is nothing low about the MSRP of $958 for my PM9 all black w/night sights.
For nearly a grand on a carry gun one should expect more.
I really like my PM9, I only wish I could trust it.

I have to agree with the above poster that complaints posted here will not solve the problem but denying the problem(s) reported as some here do is like when Obama denies the problems with his running of this country.

[Barth]

There is nothing low about the MSRP of $958 for my PM9 all black w/night sights.
For nearly a grand on a carry gun one should expect more.
I really like my PM9, I only wish I could trust it.

I have to agree with the above poster that complaints posted here will not solve the problem but denying the problem(s) reported as some here do is like when Obama denies the problems with his running of this country.

A ~$1K handgun should certainly perform well.
Kahrs do require an extended break in for reliable operation.
My MK40 Elite actually required over 400 rounds before 100% reliability.
Having other guns that ran 100% out of the box.
I was initially disappointed with the Kahr.
But once fully broke in.
It's performance has been nothing short of outstanding.
With any self defense or target ammo I've tried.
I've got about 2000 rounds through the gun after break in.
It's been completely flawless and deadly accurate.
I do carry it and absolutely trust my life with it.

With mass produced machines some number will always have issues.
If your gun is truly broken in and still unreliable?
You should send it back to Kahr to resolve your problem.

[GROTMAN]

"Maybe it's just the weather that has me down". Muggsy it's called SAD or seasonal affective disorder. Get out of Ohio now, before it's too late and find some sunshine somewhere! :)
Anyway, I don't have anywhere near the gun experience that most of the people on this forum do.. and maybe I've been extremely lucky, but I own only 4 handguns and each one has functioned great right out of the box without problems of any kind including my pm9. Now approaching 4000 rounds, have 3, 6 round magazines, no cracked followers and even waited until had over 3500 rounds to change out the recoil spring and it still worked fine. Would not hesitate for a minute to recommend a Kahr to anyone.

[CJB]

Ditto three perfect Kahr P series here. As long as I shoot good ammo, I'm certain of them operating. Questionable ammo yeilds questionable results. I'm 100 percent on Aguilla and the better grades of Wichester, Remington. Shoot WWB... and we drop to maybe 95 percent. Occasional stovie, but the recoil is noticably less too (underpowered ammo).

[jocko]

"Maybe it's just the weather that has me down". Muggsy it's called SAD or seasonal affective disorder. Get out of Ohio now, before it's too late and find some sunshine somewhere! :)
Anyway, I don't have anywhere near the gun experience that most of the people on this forum do.. and maybe I've been extremely lucky, but I own only 4 handguns and each one has functioned great right out of the box without problems of any kind including my pm9. Now approaching 4000 rounds, have 3, 6 round magazines, no cracked followers and even waited until had over 3500 rounds to change out the recoil spring and it still worked fine. Would not hesitate for a minute to recommend a Kahr to anyone.

kinda hard to tell u NOT TO TRUST YOUR KAHR:amflag::amflag:

[SaltyNC]

My experience with Kahr is limited to the CW380, but that experience has been good. The pistol was getting very good reviews on-line, as that is what led me to try a Kahr in the first place. I just finished my 200 round break-in, today. In the first 100 rounds, I had 2 FTF that were my fault. In the next 50 rounds, I had one FTF that was the gun. The final 50 rounds were flawless. I did the prep in the stickies and did remove one small burr on the slide, but otherwise, the pistol appears to be spot-on from the factory.

In the internet age, it would be wise for Kahr to quickly get a handle on things, because it doesn't take long to get a bad reputation. I am considering a CM9, but now I'm wondering if I should wait awhile. After all, the PM and CM line and CW380 really have one purpose, and failures and flakiness very quickly eliminate pistols in this category.

SaltyNC

[deadeye]

Although I've owned guns all my life (a long time) I have never owned a semi auto of any kind. Being a newbie to these things I dove in and learned everything I could on the subject before even firing my CM9, including following all the stickies. 1 year old and nearly 2000 rounds through it and not 1 problem. Flawless. Just purchased an AR15. Did the same thing. 200 rounds. So far not a problem. Just wonderin'.

[HAP1978]

I've thought about this as well. It's true that if you research any gun and brand out there they all have issues of some sort. I've read countless threads on Glocks, S&W, Springfield, $1000 Kimbers...etc, that have all sorts of issues. My brother just sent his XDS back to get the recall fixed and he was livid about it and its going to take almost two months they said. I've never had to send my Kahr's in for anything.

This site has to be the most popular website for Kahr owners so we hear the most complaints on here. Kahr pistols are some of the biggest sellers in America so just think about all of those thousands of Kahr pistols that are out there functioning great that we never hear about.

I've heard Kimber tell someone who called their service department that they recommend a 400 round break in.

[muggsy]

Keep the faith muggsy, things will get better, they can't get any worse. :)

I like your attitude, Jim. :D

[smo79]

I have say that being new to Kahr this last year I was a little troubled after I bought my CW9 and read the negative reviews, but I have spent a lot of time with her and she is my favorite handgun. In fact I just upgraded her sights to the trijicon night sites and I love her even more. They are great firearms but like every company there will be problems but Kahr seems very willing to fix them when something does go wrong. That is what a good company should do, stand behind their product. I have to say that my cw9 feels much better in my hand than my glock 26.

[dorangolv]

Took my daughter with me out to the desert to shoot my shotgun and semi-autos. She'd been asking me for a couple weeks when we could go. First she shoots and Springfield Armory XD45 then the Kahr P45.
(Skip ahead to 1:32 for the Kahr P45.)
The two malfunctions were caused by the users. The first one is a Failure To Chamber a round. Then the guide rod works it's way out the front of the slide during the course of three shots fired. This is because the spring was installed backwards. duh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twahP-20x1c

Within minutes of reassembling the slide (correctly this time) I filmed this string of shots. 4 mags;2-6rd, 2-7rd all emptied.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLWi7R_5og

To date, 1,450 rounds fired through this Little Monster.

Most of you know how much trouble I had trying to get it to run and cycle without SOME kind of malfunction. Lots of scraping, grinding and hitches throughout the slides travel. All kinds of resistance to smooth operation. Sent it back to Kahr who said they fired 280 rds without a hitch.:confused:
I have since found the root cause of all my headaches and corrected it.
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=21904

It is a totally different gun now. It has turned into the reliable, smooth gun everyone says Kahrs are supposed to be. It just took me 900 rounds and hours of tinkering to make it so.

[pdxmale]

I took my new PM9 to the range and fired the 200 break in rounds using 4 different brands of cheap FMJ target ammo. I did a field strip cleaning and inspection before hand.
One FTE (the 3rd round fired) was the only problem that I had.

[hardluk1]

Muggys you need to focus your rant to kahr . Does no good here . Write them and see if you get a reply that's real or some off the cuff reply.


I have been at the range a couple times over the last year and saw new owners of different kahrs having trouble. Turn out all those problems were relate to the owner in one way or the other. Ammo, clean and lube or handgun control. When you can help them out it makes you think the issues over all are not as bad as some say or think. My bone with kahr would be focused on the feed ramp , mag issues . Get the ramp length right be for shipping and most real mag problems are gone.


Anyhow my three have been great

[muggsy]

This wasn't a rant it was a statement of facts. I've been a forum member for more that two years and most of the posts concerned malfunctioning Kahr pistols, or sheep. (No offense, Jocko) Some malfunctions were due to operator error or ignorance, but the majority have been mechanical. That tells me that quality control is quite what it should be. Half of my life was spent as a mechanic and the other as a machinist. I've been there and done that. Yes, there is an eraser on my pencil, but I try to use it as little as possible.

[Planedude]

Muggsy,
Can"t speak to troubled Kahrs from any first hand experience. Mine have been fine from the first shot. All my failures have happened in the first few magazines out of the box and always with WWB ammo.
Every other Kahr I have held have been the same, almost prefect and happy owners.
Carry mine all the time, which is to say, I trust my life to them.


I can give them no higher praise...

My only negative experience with Kahrs has been here and I take most of this with a grain of salt.
Keep the faith Brother!