Goldilocks 9mm: which one is just right?

[aray]

Thought I'd post some pics of my 9mm collection. Click on the photos to expand.

Baby Bear: my new (to me) Kahr CW9.

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Mama Bear: my Beretta 92F with Quarton Beamshot laser sights.

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Daddy Bear: my IMI Uzi Model A with stock unfolded.

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And with stock folded.

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[ripley16]

Nice collection. Two classics and one on the potential classic list.

[PaiN]

:eek: Ray in all the time we've spent corresponding to work out the CW9 deal, I thought I got to know you fairly well.....Never would I have pegged you as an Uzi guy :9:

Good looking collection you have there.

[jlottmc]

You need to add to that collection though. That is the Best reason I know of to get new guns, you have a hole in the safe. Then when the safe is full, you need a bigger one. Crap it is a sickness. Nice toys though, keep up the good work.

[aray]

:eek: Ray in all the time we've spent corresponding to work out the CW9 deal, I thought I got to know you fairly well.....Never would I have pegged you as an Uzi guy :9:

Good looking collection you have there.

I got the Uzi because several years ago Maryland passed a law which banned various "assault weapons" including the Uzi, even those that were just semi-automatic (like mine). However it grandfathered in current guns, so before the law took effect I went out and bought one (and had to register it with the state, which I did.) I do comply with all of the laws, even if I don't agree with them. However that doesn't stop me from doing as much as I can, within the laws, to include in this case buying, registering, and owning one prior to the ban. As another example I can't carry concealed in Maryland, and don't, but that doesn't stop me from carrying in the 31 states for which I am allowed to do so now that I have a Florida carry permit. And I will.

Having said all of that, even though I sorta bought it to make a political point, I must say that it is a *blast* to shoot (no pun intended). A whole lot of fun. It looks way cool, of course, but it is a real shooter. Very balanced. Very easy to rapid fire and stay on target. Very accurate. Very smooth. The Israelis absolutely knew what they were doing when they designed this gun.

Plus, it's a real kick when you start going: pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, ... and keep going and going and going on a large capacity magazine. I shoot for myself, but must admit it's sorta fun to see the heads turn at the range when they hear this puppy start up and (almost) never stop.

[Bawanna]

I have several guns in the same category (not an Uzi though) Just prior to the insane and thoughtless assault weapon ban I bought several on the to be banned list. Didn't really even want them, just bought em cause they said I wouldn't be allowed to in the future. Of course the prices quadrupled or more in 6 months. Many made alot of money on the "preban" market. I didn't but they are still worth far more than I paid for them.
I really don't buy guns for money makeing, profit deals, to me it's all pure unadulterated "LOVE".

[aray]

OK so I lied. I actually have a second Beretta 92FS not previously shown. I got it shortly after I got married and put cherry wood grips on for my wife. (Look honey. I got you a gun. See, you can tell it's yours because it has cherry wood grips on it! :) ) Unfortunately that was about the time she was getting herself pregnant, and other things in our lives turned upside down, so neither one of us actually ever fired the gun.

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Until last night. I took it to the range along with my CW9 and put the first 75 rounds through the Beretta.

Wow. I had about a 40% malfunction rate! Unfortunately the malfunctions were not consistent in type, so it was difficult trying to pin down a cause. Probably the most common malfunction was a failure to properly feed, where the nose of the bullet was up near the barrel but the rear was still down in the magazine area. The slide would not close and you could see the bullet pitched up at a 45 degree angle through the open ejector port. I also got eject malfunctions where the spent shell casing got trapped in the ejector port. With about the same frequency I got a third malfunction where the bullet fed properly into the barrel, but when I pulled the trigger the hammer came down but the shell did not fire. Pulling the hammer back manually and squeezing the trigger a second time would then fire the cartridge. Once or twice (much less common) I got what I thought was the problem above, i.e. I pulled the trigger and it went "click" but resetting the hammer and firing again caused just another "click". When I manually ejected the bullet, turns out it was just a spent shell casing from the previous firing, i.e. the old shell was not ejected at all and no new bullet was loaded from the magazine - but the slide had reset the hammer back! And finally, normally when you fire your last round and nothing is left in the magazine, the slide locks back. Sometimes this did not happen. I was out of bullets but the slide was forward, making me think I had another round in there until I got the "click" again - this time however on an empty chamber.

So, five different types of malfunctions, on a "new" gun. It was a miserable night.

I tried to eliminate ammunition as a cause. I had planned to shoot mostly new Winchester 115 gr. FMJ and started out on that for inexpensive target practice. However when I got all of the problems, I: 1) tested the same ammunition on my Kahr CW9 (with no problems of course!) and 2) switched to some new Federal 124 gr. Hydra-Shok JHP and also tried some Glaser 100 gr. JHP +P. Same results in the Beretta. (CW9 chomped 'em all up with no problems. Smooth as silk.)

No, I did not limp wrist the gun.

I would have swapped to another magazine, but had no idea I'd get these problems and so had neglected to bring a spare Beretta magazine with me. But I don't think that was the cause anyway. How would a bad magazine cause ejector problems, for example? Maybe the first (and most common) of the problems above, but what about the others?

I brought the gun back sadder but wiser. (Moral: shoot every gun you buy right after you buy it and not a decade later!) I cleaned it good and lub'ed it good and will get it back out to the range next month, with a known-good magazine from my other Beretta. If it still malfunctions, guess I'll have to get it off to a shop for repairs. Darn. Brand new, too. Wish I'd just checked it out...

Any thoughts?

Oh, and one last thing. I've kept it loaded (and my other Beretta as well which I know works well) for a decade with Winchester Black Talon ammunition. Black Talon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_talon) I've been hoarding a few boxes of this stuff ever since Winchester announced they were going to take it off the market. I think it is the best designed standard pressure load ever offered to the civilian market. I wouldn't normally keep ammunition a decade, but I can't get any more and they've been kept at home in a climate controlled environment the whole time. Even so I had planned to test fire a few rounds yesterday just to be sure they were still good. They were, but I fired them through the Kahr and not through the Beretta, since it was having so many problems.

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(One final legal comment to any BATF-types that might be lurking. Yes I know my photos on this thread don't show the S/N on the gun frames where they should be found. They're there on the real guns. I just used iPhoto's "retouch" feature to delete them from the image. Don't want to have a no-knock warrant served on me because someone misunderstood...)

[Bawanna]

I wonder if that new decade old Beretta isn't just gummed up a bit. Sitting unfired since it left the factory the extractor might be sticky. I over saw 40 92FS's years ago and then 40 96 Elite's after that and never had issues with any of them. I heard that other agencies had lots of issues but only heresay sometimes from glock reps and such to help promote their product. The empty case left behind is sure extrator related and I take back the above, I did have a few fairly new ejectors sheer off while still at academy with new officers.
Course if its sheered then its every single time, not now and then. I think I'd give it a good cleaning an oil it up and try again.

[aray]

I wonder if that new decade old Beretta isn't just gummed up a bit. Sitting unfired since it left the factory the extractor might be sticky. I over saw 40 92FS's years ago and then 40 96 Elite's after that and never had issues with any of them. I heard that other agencies had lots of issues but only heresay sometimes from glock reps and such to help promote their product. The empty case left behind is sure extrator related and I take back the above, I did have a few fairly new ejectors sheer off while still at academy with new officers.
Course if its sheered then its every single time, not now and then. I think I'd give it a good cleaning an oil it up and try again.

Thanks. I'll indeed try that. Already cleaned & oiled & ready to go for when I can get out to the range again sometime next month.

I think I'm also going to get some snap caps & load up the magazine and cycle the whole system by hand a couple of hundred times before then. That should exercise the magazine(s), slide, ejector, etc. Might also loosen things up a bit. I hope...

[Bawanna]

Thanks. I'll indeed try that. Already cleaned & oiled & ready to go for when I can get out to the range again sometime next month.

I think I'm also going to get some snap caps & load up the magazine and cycle the whole system by hand a couple of hundred times before then. That should exercise the magazine(s), slide, ejector, etc. Might also loosen things up a bit. I hope...

Let us know how she acts next time out. I still have quite a few Beretta new replacement parts, springs, extractors, a few mag springs, that I'm more than willing to donate to the cause if needed, not sure what all I got but we'll get that thing running one way or the other.

[wyntrout]

That's a good example of why guns should be really test fired and make sure that it not only functions, but functions with the chosen ammo. Preaching to the choir and I know that you know that, but almost everybody I talk to has or is getting a gun -- other customers at Wal-Mart, my buddy, or my letter-carrier -- and just loads them up and puts them in a safe or something. I explain to them the importance of making sure the gun and ammo work and the importance of being able to get to it in a timely manner. Knowing how to shoot and hit your target helps, too, hence the break-in and practice being necessary components of self-defense.
I'm still trying to get my 37-year-old son to take his police-surplus Glock 22 to the range and shoot it. I don't think he has ever fired it.:eek:

You've probably already done this, but check the magazine. Take it apart and clean every part. Use a ruler to push a rag through the tube and remove all old lubricant and check that the follower falls freely from the base to the mouth while held upside down. I lightly oil the spring and spray a burst of dry-lube into the tube before assembly.
Wynn

[aray]

Well as stated I got a package of snap caps and, in groups of 5 each, loaded them into the magazine, pulled the slide back, pulled the trigger, and cycled the slide again for a total of 200 "shots". Only two malfunctions the whole time, and in each case it was because I inadvertently rode the slide back down rather than letting it slam. So other than the "my fault" ones, really no malfunctions.

I know this isn't a complete test, but I'll get it out to the range the next chance I have (probably in a couple of weeks) and let you know how it goes. Between now & then I might put a couple hundred more snap caps through the cycle. I'm hoping it was just gummy from sitting around for a decade. It's had a very good cleaning now.

[jlottmc]

That would be the most likely culprit. I still see Beretta guts in my sleep. That whole armorer thing. I would use the non chlorinated brake cleaner a bit extra in there. If that failed, Simple Green will get the crud out, then be sure to re oil a couple of times after that. If it was a sheared extractor, then it wouldn't be hit or miss. You should be ok after your through cleaning.

[qshipglide]

I think its the grips