Looking for a self-defense round for CW380

[GDU]

I picked up a CW380 in late November 2013. I have put 200 rounds through it of target-grade ammo. I had only one FTF/FTE at about 100 rounds.


I read that the Kahr P380/CW380 tends to have problems with non-ball type bullets. I would really like to find a self-defense round (like having a hollow point) for my gun without wasting a lot of money.


Can anybody help me identify an ammo manufacturer who makes a .380 self-defense round that feeds and ejects well in a CW380? I would appreciate any information you can provide.


GDU

[usfpaul82]

gold dots is my choice

[SlowBurn]

DISCLAIMER: I don't understand ammo and there's contradictory testing out there about what's effective and not for SD in 380.

With that caveat I'll say that Hornady Critical Defense feeds very reliably through my P380.

[SaltyNC]

I recently ran 50 rounds of Precision One XTP through mine with no issues. The price is great, and the XTP bullet works extremely well for a defensive round in the 380 with just the right amount of penetration. See below. The more blue, the better.

Even though the XTP bullet has a hollow point, it opens up close to the tip, so the shoulders of the bullet are round.

http://shootingthebull.net/blog/final-results-of-the-380-acp-ammo-quest/

SaltyNC

[VN Vet]

I will also be trying the Precision One XTP .380ACP 90 grain cartridge when I get them this week-end. The XTP bullet was the #1 projectile and the Precision One the #1 cartridge when tested from around 20 different rounds. See the link SaltyNC gave us.

[SaltyNC]

Here is a pic of the Precision One XTP. Hope that helps.

I had said above that the bullet has round shoulders, and actually, that isn't the case. They are more sloped instead of rounded, but the opening is more forward than some rounds that have a very large hollow point. I think the bullets with larger hollow points are more prone to hanging up on the feed ramp of the CW380. I'm not saying they will, just that they have a greater chance.

SaltyNC

[GDU]

Gents,


Thanks for the input. I plan on trying some of these makes and models out.


GDU

[LawDoc2]

Shooting the Bull has a You Tube posting re the gel/denim testing of Precision One .380 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOwCXXpEP50). Another plus is Precision One comes in a box of 50 not 20 or 25. It runs about $28/box.

[wyntrout]

The Gold Dot is a bonded bullet and seems to work well, especially when pushed to +P by Buffalo Bore or Underwood. Underwood is a good deal when they are in stock... boxes of 50 +P 90-gr Gold Dots at 1,200 fps... over 1,100 fps out of the P380.

See post#2:

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=279286&posted=1#post279286

Check out Bruce's testing here under .380. He does some great testing with video and pictures:

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/p/ammo-tests.html

Wynn:)

[kevmck1]

I'm considering the Underwood +P with the solid copper Barnes projectile or the Buffalo-Barnes +P with the same projectile. The have reliable expansion.


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[wyntrout]

Bruce has tested many of those rounds:

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/underwood-ammo-380-p-80-grain-tac-xp.html

Not cheap at $60.75 a box of 50 + shipping, but buying 20 at a time of defense ammo + tax isn't cheap, either:

http://www.underwoodammo.com/380acp80grainjacketedhollowpointboxof50.aspx

Wynn:)

[getsome]

What ever uber fantastic 22nd century wonder hollow point you want to carry just be SURE your gun will digest them 100% because no matter what test you see run on the internet about this or that brand of super duper ammo guaranteed bring down a mule after it expands to an inch and a half it doesn't matter squat if you have to clear a jam after every shot fired....

An old school idea but still a good one for .380 is to alternate a FMJ round after one or two hollow points to be sure you have a round that will penetrate a fat guy wearing a heavy coat still coming at you after your hollow points failed to hit a nerve and take him out of action....

[RevRay]

Here's a good analysis of just about every .380 round there is ...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GNtPHYwcDts&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Ffeature%3Dplayer_embedded%2 6v%3DGNtPHYwcDts

[muggsy]

Allow me to attempt to separate the wheat from the chaff in this discussion. First, no one can tell you what defensive round will work in your gun. Only your gun can tell you what round will work in your gun. Second, no ballistics test can tell you how effective a round will be, because no test media exactly duplicates the human anatomy. Shot placement is by far the most important factor. A ball ammo round through the heart is far more effective than a hollow point round through the arm.

[clayflingythingy]

With that caveat I'll say that Hornady Critical Defense feeds very reliably through my P380.

Hornady Critical Defense has the added advantage of being more readily available than some of the other premium loads. Provided your gun runs reliably with it that is a huge asset since the ammo shortage doesn't really seem to be easing.

[drewski115]

Allow me to attempt to separate the wheat from the chaff in this discussion. First, no one can tell you what defensive round will work in your gun. Only your gun can tell you what round will work in your gun. Second, no ballistics test can tell you how effective a round will be, because no test media exactly duplicates the human anatomy. Shot placement is by far the most important factor. A ball ammo round through the heart is far more effective than a hollow point round through the arm.

I agree "shot placement" is king however ball ammunition has a tendency for over penetration which opens the shooter up for liability if that round strikes another person or persons in the back drop. One of the reasons LE tends to lean towards hollow points. It is a concern that in a self defense situation forces the shooter to evaluate a shoot or don't shoot scenario taking up valuable time. You NEVER see ANY self defense ammo in ball form. Thus hollow points are in my opinion a better choice. If I am making that choice I want to select the best performer thru testing. Ballistic Gel may not be ideal but it is the closest thing we have to evaluate the ammo. It may not mimic real life but it will at the least determine the better performers. Even though the best performer may not work in my weapon I know what is second best and so on till I find what does work in my weapon. I find this type of testing very valuable.:D

[kwh]

XTP bullet in short barrel .380. More options if longer barrel .380.

[Evan]

Are kahr cw380s rated for +P ammo? From the video above it looks like the xtp would perform alot better in a +P load or even gold dots in +P( my ideal round)

[wyntrout]

From Kahr.com FAQ's:

http://www.kahr.com/faq.asp#q4

"Q. Which ammunition is recommended for use with Kahr firearms?

A. Kahr Arms does not endorse any particular brand of ammunition. However, not every brand of ammunition produces the same results. Please check the markings on the barrel hood of your firearm to determine the proper caliber. Kahr suggests a visit to a pistol range to test fire different brands of ammunition in the proper caliber. Kahr does not recommend steel case, reloads or un-jacketed ammunition. The Kahr pistol is rated to +P."

Wynn:)

[wyntrout]

Underwood was out of +P GD's but had the +P XTP:

http://www.underwoodammo.com/380acp90grainxtpjacketedhollowpointboxof50.aspx

380 ACP +P 90 Grain XTP Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 50


<< Previous in 380 ACP (http://www.underwoodammo.com/380acp90grainxtpjacketedhollowpointboxof50.aspx?pr evious) Next in 380 ACP >> (http://www.underwoodammo.com/380acp90grainxtpjacketedhollowpointboxof50.aspx?ne xt)
http://www.underwoodammo.com/images/products/thumb/380XTP.JPG (http://www.underwoodammo.com/images/products/detail/380XTP.JPG)http://www.underwoodammo.com/images/products/thumb/380XTP2.JPG (http://www.underwoodammo.com/images/products/detail/380XTP2.JPG) Price: $29.80

In Stock 84
Item Number: 141
Manufacturer: Underwood Ammo
Manufacturer Item No: 141

[Evan]

Thanks Wynn! You are on top of things!

[Evan]

I found some +P golddots from buffalo bore https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=129
Pricey but they are what im looking for.

[SaltyNC]

The Gold Dot is a bonded bullet and seems to work well, especially when pushed to +P by Buffalo Bore or Underwood. Underwood is a good deal when they are in stock... boxes of 50 +P 90-gr Gold Dots at 1,200 fps... over 1,100 fps out of the P380.

Wynn:)

Wynn, do you prefer the Gold Dots and +P for the greater energy delivery and expansion, and are OK with not quite as much penetration? I don't mean this as any kind of challenge, I'm genuinely interested in your thought process for preferring the Gold Dots over XTP bullets. The XTP bullets seemed to be a sweet spot for expansion and penetration in a 380 round in the shootingthebull tests, and I'm curious what led you to prefer the Gold Dots in +P.

Thanks!

SaltyNC

[wyntrout]

I use only bonded bullets for SD and prefer the Speer Gold Dots, especially the Short Barrel version in 9mm, .40, and .45. There's no SB for .380, but Underwood's +P 90-gr bonded JHPs are Speer Gold Dot bullets with more velocity.

I use +P in .380 and 9mm for more velocity out of our short-barreled Kahrs, insuring they have the velocity to perform with expansion and energy.

I have +P 230-gr GD's by Underwood, too, but those were the only thing available at the time. I use GDSB's... +P 124-gr in 9mm, 180-gr in .40, and 230-gr in .45. The cavities in the .40 and .45 are noticeably wider and a bit shallower. I couldn't tell any difference in the 9mm GDSB's.

The +P 90-gr Gold Dots can exceed the performance of the equivalent round... +P 125-135-gr .38S&W Speeer GDSB's coming out of s .38 snubbie... plus you get more shots, quicker reloading, and more controllable recoil... for me, anyhow.

Check the Ballistics By the Inch graph and remember that the +P .380 would graph a bit higher at the 2.5" barrel part of the graph... significantly higher than the 2" or less snubbies.

Wynn:)

[muggsy]

I agree "shot placement" is king however ball ammunition has a tendency for over penetration which opens the shooter up for liability if that round strikes another person or persons in the back drop. One of the reasons LE tends to lean towards hollow points. It is a concern that in a self defense situation forces the shooter to evaluate a shoot or don't shoot scenario taking up valuable time. You NEVER see ANY self defense ammo in ball form. Thus hollow points are in my opinion a better choice. If I am making that choice I want to select the best performer thru testing. Ballistic Gel may not be ideal but it is the closest thing we have to evaluate the ammo. It may not mimic real life but it will at the least determine the better performers. Even though the best performer may not work in my weapon I know what is second best and so on till I find what does work in my weapon. I find this type of testing very valuable.:D

Hollow points are a better choice only if they function well in your gun. If you are ever in a SHTF situation over penetration will be the least of your concerns. Putting rounds on target will be far more important to you. I'd rather have a round that over penetrates than a round that doesn't penetrate enough.

[Evan]

After more research and an email to buffalo bore it turns out they dont ust speer gold dot hollow points any more. Due to the fact that there is the biggest shortage of supplies in history... Still on the hunt for speer gold dot +P ammo

[Evan]

Heres a copy of the email i received from buffalo bore:
Oh my! I get this question hundreds of times per month. We are in the midst of the longest/hardest component shortage in the history of America. I can't (neither can anyone but Speer) get Gold Dots on a regular basis. So I use what quality bullets I can find, or I make no ammo at all--it is not a choice for me! I did not quit using Gold Dots, Speer quit me.

Also, it should be understood, that the Sierra 90gr. JHP and the XTP 90gr. are not only more accurate than the Gold Dot in a wider variety of pistols, but act just as effectively terminally and I would frankly prefer the Sierra in my 380 auto carry ammo, if I was to use a JHP in 380 auto. This link may shed some light on the false hype regarding bonded bullets that you’ve obviously been influenced by. Use of Expanding Bullets in Small Defensive Cartridges


Tim

[Evan]

I put a phone call into underwood and they will only use speer gold dot bullets. They wait for supplies to come in... They put on an email list to get the +P gold dots when they come in, hopefully i wont be waiting too long ...

[drewski115]

Hollow points are a better choice only if they function well in your gun. If you are ever in a SHTF situation over penetration will be the least of your concerns. Putting rounds on target will be far more important to you. I'd rather have a round that over penetrates than a round that doesn't penetrate enough.

I respect your opinion but again do disagree about "over penetration is the least of your concerns." If your back drop is clear there is no issue but if is not and an innocent is injured or killed it will become your main concern. Yes you survived but at what cost? I would have a difficult time living with that burden. If my weapon would not feed an actual "defensive round" then it would not be carried as a defensive weapon on my person. I believe testing has shown there are .380 defensive rounds that perform well enough to penetrate sufficiently but again shot placement is every thing so practice practice practice. :typing:

[muggsy]

Drewski, you are living in a dream world. If someone is hard charging you with a knife or pointing a gun at you you aren't going to worry about over penetration, or who might be standing behind the perp. According to the FBI uniform crime statistics most gun fights follow the rule of threes. Three shots in three second from three feet. You aren't going to have time to think. You'll just have time to clear point and shoot. Your gun had better go bang each time that you squeeze the trigger. That's the real world.

[drewski115]

Drewski, you are living in a dream world. If someone is hard charging you with a knife or pointing a gun at you you aren't going to worry about over penetration, or who might be standing behind the perp. According to the FBI uniform crime statistics most gun fights follow the rule of threes. Three shots in three second from three feet. You aren't going to have time to think. You'll just have time to clear point and shoot. Your gun had better go bang each time that you squeeze the trigger. That's the real world.

Sorry my friend but I live in that world every day. The point I am making is ball is not defensive ammunition exactly for your point above. Thus if your weapon does not shoot a defensive load it should not be used as a defensive weapon. If you wish to live by what the "FBI reports" then any ammunition that goes more than 18" in ballistic gel is not suitable for carry due to over penetration. Which is what most ball does. Of course that requirement is for "duty use" but the reason is liability. I dunno about you but I like the stuff I own and wish to keep it.

Also I dunno where in the UCR you find a "rule of 3." And I have never seen a stat as to how long a gun fight lasts in the UCR. What table number is that in? I have never heard of this rule but the below link seems to point out that is an urban legend or just mis reported but I am willing to learn.

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/what-fbi-statistics-really-say-about-gunfights/

[SaltyNC]

I found this to be interesting:
http://blog.hsoi.com/2013/03/30/fbi-pistol-qualification-course-an-evolution/

One thing to keep in mind is that the data on gunfights that Drewski posted was for law enforcement. If you are LE, then it probably carries weight for what you may experience. However, for civilians, I don't think the same holds true. I don't have charts and graphs and data to prove it, but I'm not sure tables are required.

When you think of typical scenarios of how a civilian will be threatened and be justified in drawing and using a firearm in self defense, most of those are going to be up close. If you have great situational awareness, you may see a potential threat closing on you. OK, so let's say this "threat" is out 15 or 20 yards when you notice this unknown person approaching you from behind with something suspicious in his hand. He isn't announcing he is going to attack you. All you notice is that his body language is determined. He has something in his hand. He is dressed in a manner that raises concern to you. Well, you certainly can't draw your weapon and drop him. For all you know, he's going to ask you if you have any spare change or tell you he's run out of gas, or ask you if you are a Christian and invite you to the church he pastors for the homeless. Can't judge a book by its cover. So, when will you be able to make the determination as to his intent? You can't draw and challenge him to stand down. He hasn't made any definitive threats. So, let's say he really has you nervous, and you turn to face him. He keeps coming. You then command him to stop and do not approach you. You have your hand ready to draw. You have no authority to stop the man from approaching you. You cannot legally threaten him not to approach you in a public place as long as he isn't a clear threat to you. You also still possess the ability to run at this point.

And that scenario is with great situational awareness. If you are attacked, it is likely to be much closer before you are aware it is happening.

I can imagine longer distance firearm use scenarios for civilians, but I think they are rare events. How many scenarios can you imagine where your life is in imminent danger from 21 yards? It happens in real life. It's just that it isn't anything likely.

I also agree that in an attack, the last thing you're likely to be thinking about is collateral damage with over-penetration. You're likely going to just point and pull the trigger several times while in a state of mind that few experience. But, where I disagree is that you should think about collateral damage when you are calm and cool sitting on your couch deciding what ammo to select. For me, that is going to be XTP bullets if we're talking about .380. From the data I have seen, it offers the best mix of penetration, expansion, and reduces the likelihood that I am going to hurt someone innocent. If I didn't chose XTP, I would choose something like Gold Dots. I may consider flat nose hard ammo as a third round for those rare instances that it may be required.

If a kid is standing behind the BG, and the kid gets hit because my hard nose ammo passed right through the BG and struck the kid in the head, I wouldn't much care about living. It would be a fate worse than dying. My family would be left in financial ruin. My kids would be left with a father forever damaged emotionally by the event. It would devastate the family of the kid that was shot, and an innocent life would be lost. You may feel differently. You may feel that at least you are alive, but that kind of life is not one I want to live if I have a choice, and I do have a choice. I will practice frequently under simulated stress for close quarter attacks. I'll focus on shot placement. I will carry a load that is not prone to over-penetration.

SaltyNC

[DavidR]

Very thoughtful Salty.


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[berettabone]

When I had a .380, I used Rem Home Defense 102gr. JHP..........worked for me.