Brass damage using Berry's 200gr PSWC

[pbagley]

I have no idea why this is happening, so I'm looking to the collective wisdom on this board for some ideas.

http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/13/62/95/74/dsc00610.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=636&u=13629574)

I've never had brass damage like this with cases that were ejected normally. I have seen some damage when a case gets stuck in the gun - a FTE and mangle situation I guess I'd call it. These were on the ground near the rest of the ejected brass. These two happened out of 20 fired, the other 18 look perfectly normal.

The only clue may be that when hand cycling the rounds I found there was occasional bullet damage, as if the bottom of the slide is catching the edge of the SWC bullet. It of course does not happen with RN's. This occasional damage was more apparent with cast bullets - the damage was bad enough to prevent chambering. With the plated SWC it is more a little dent in the SWC step. If this is the culprit that would explain damage on one side, and I would expect a case damaged that badly would not chamber. I'd also expect the bullet to be a flier, and both 10 round groups were around 6" at 25 yards.

Ideas? Thanks!

[muggsy]

That damage is coming from the slide closing on the case before the case completely clears the ejection port. Could be your load is a little on the weak side. What loading data are you using?

[Bawanna]

Painful as it may be I have to agree with Muggs on this one. Apparently they are getting squished on the way out and just barely clearing without getting jammed. How it's feeding the next round is kind of a mystery to me.

The gun may handle that load better after more rounds fired and it's loosened up a bit more.

[jocko]

or an extremely tight extractor. Just sayin.

[Bob T]

That damage is coming from the slide closing on the case before the case completely clears the ejection port. Could be your load is a little on the weak side. What loading data are you using?

I'll agree with this...
I just shot 50 reloads from my P238 a couple weeks ago. They were very conservative loads using Titegroup and Berry's 100 grn bullets. First time using Titegroup, so I was careful.
I had several that failed to fully eject the last round in the magazine...
This has never happened with factory, or other reloaded ammo.
And they looked like this:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c163/Baatfam/ForumPics/Shooters/reloading-1030293.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/Baatfam/media/ForumPics/Shooters/reloading-1030293.jpg.html)

[Tilos]

More powder laddy


OK for real this time
I'll assume the gun is some sort of Kahr and guess (again) it's a 45 ACP.
I'm not going to guess the powder or OAL but do know that SWC bullets have a step/shoulder/sharp corner (90 degrees) which is hard to feed in any auto, and even more so in a small compact gun with a steep ramp, AND stiff springs:eek:
If you have a lot of them loaded, shoot them in another gun that will handle them better, and move on to RN or jacketed type bullets.
:D:D

[pbagley]

Thank You! The first load I tried with a similar jacketed bullet were with .2 gr heavier. Using the plated I reduced just a bit, even though I am certain they are quite modest. Compared to Speer LawMan 200gr JHP's these are mild. Compared to my cast bullet load for a highly tuned 1911 BullsEye gun these are heavy. I'll have to do some chronographing and get some facts to compare.

Here's how the load shot in 25f weather with a trigger that does not like the cold.
http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/13/62/95/74/p2170313.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=631&u=13629574)

[CJB]

The Kahr manual says that cases may be dented upon ejection.

To me... that looks like you're getting the smaller whack on the edge, as teh case mouth tries to clear the ejection port, and the second, bigger whack, when the case smacks the edge of the slide by the extractor.

This was an issue for .45acp target shooters and the Gold Cup slide was altered to help fix that problem. I had the same issue on my (bought used) PM45 and rounded the edge of the slide at that point, and pretty much cured the huge whack problem, and reduced it to barely deformed - with WWB, Aguilla and Remington ammo.

Anyway, my 2c on the issue.

[Bob T]

The Kahr manual says that cases may be dented upon ejection.

The denting mentioned in the Kahr manual is more of a flattening of one side, sort of making a "D" shape out of the brass...
These are typical Kahr damaged brass from my K40...

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c163/Baatfam/ForumPics/Shooters/reloading-1030296.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/Baatfam/media/ForumPics/Shooters/reloading-1030296.jpg.html)

[CJB]

I think there may be some variabilty there, depending on cartrige caliber, load, individual pistol, and individual shooter. Certainly the cited examples are rather severe

[muggsy]

More powder laddy


OK for real this time
I'll assume the gun is some sort of Kahr and guess (again) it's a 45 ACP.
I'm not going to guess the powder or OAL but do know that SWC bullets have a step/shoulder/sharp corner (90 degrees) which is hard to feed in any auto, and even more so in a small compact gun with a steep ramp.
If you have a lot of them loaded, shoot them in another gun that will handle them better, and move on to RN or jacketed type bullets.
:D:D

LSWC. feed very well in my 1911. In fact 200 gr. LSWC are all that I run in it. The feed ramp on Kahr pistols aren't any steeper than the feed ramp of my 1911 and the Kahr ramp is far more polished. It isn't the projectile that's causing the problem. It's the load.

[muggsy]

or an extremely tight extractor. Just sayin.

Jocko, not to be disagreeable, but the exrtactor wasn't too tight on the factory loads. Just sayin.

[muggsy]

Painful as it may be I have to agree with Muggs on this one. Apparently they are getting squished on the way out and just barely clearing without getting jammed. How it's feeding the next round is kind of a mystery to me.

The gun may handle that load better after more rounds fired and it's loosened up a bit more.

It's never painful to agree with muggsy. It's sometimes painful to disagree with muggsy. Depends on muggsy's mood. :)

[CJB]

How about if we slip Muggsy some hootch bourbon?

[pbagley]

Submitted for your review - here is the one TulAmmo Brass Max that was damaged similar to my reloads.
http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/13/62/95/74/dsc00611.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=642&u=13629574)

So it is not just reloads, but factory ammo as well. Granted it was around freezing when I shot this (32f, 0C) so it could be partly due to cold ammo and gun oil.

That said, I loaded more of the 200gr Berry's with a tenth more powder and we'll see how they shoot. Worst case is I'm back at my starting load - a little heavier than I'd like but not as heavy as the Speer Lawman JHP's.

[Tilos]

I'd be more concerned about what that rim looks like than the case mouth.
jmo

[mr surveyor]

looks like either a new extractor is in order, or the existing one needs a good bit of touch up.

[CJB]

Nah, the brass is coming out and flying into the great unknown..... thats what its supposed to do. If it aint broke, don't fix it!

[pbagley]

Thanks for the advice. Next range trip I'll examine the rims more closely. I just checked the 8 empty factory SD loads I tried last time out (all I found) and there is not that much damage. The cases are still scratched/burred at the extractor and the ejector, but the damage is a lot less than seen on the TulAmmo case above.

How much damage is enough to ask Kahr for a new extractor?

[pbagley]

Long overdue update.

Case Mouth Damage: Through some additional experimentation I found that there was more damage with hotter loads than with light loads. I'm also having an issue with the ejecting case hooking the front of the next SWC bullet (cast or plated) occasionally.

Case Rim Damage: I finally worked up the courage to detail strip my slide. While it was apart I rounded the edges of the extractor slightly. Oddly I found some small stainless steel chips inside the striker channel, but no chipped parts. I think this is likely from the manufacturing process. It's clean now. Last night at the range I found the case rim damage was reduced. Not eliminated. I will go back and do some more rounding and polish everything up with 1000 grit and see if that completely cures the problem.

[muggsy]

Painful as it may be I have to agree with Muggs on this one. Apparently they are getting squished on the way out and just barely clearing without getting jammed. How it's feeding the next round is kind of a mystery to me.

The gun may handle that load better after more rounds fired and it's loosened up a bit more.

What do you mean by painful as it might be? Agreeing with muggsy is painless. :)