+p Necessary?

[KahrArmed]

I am just wondering if +p is necessary for defense ammo in a P45. I have just been reading a bit about the round not mushrooming in the shorter barreled guns, and just wanna make sure I am running the right ammo. Before I started looking into this I ordered a box of 50 Gold Dot, 230 gr, not +p.

[RRP]

That's a question that's been debated for a long time.

If you have time to watch these Dave Spaulding videos, they may help you decide what you want to carry. If you don't want to watch both, start with the second one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWMGBCVtTrM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myKGVV7xVDI

[wyntrout]

You can try what I carry... the Speer 230-grain Gold Dots Short Barrel. They are designed to perform from a short barreled-pistol. The SB version has wider and shallower cavities, as does the .40 S&W 180-gr SB version... quite different from the regular LE or Duty ammo.

I don't think the .45 needs +P, but the 9mm might. I use the +P 124-gr GDSB.

For .380 I use +P Gold Dots by Buffalo Bore or lately Underwood, since BB hasn't been able to get the GD components.

Some pix of all in this thread:

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=16416&highlight=bonded+bullets

At the end of the second page Bruce/Ljutic posts two links for his +P 230-gr velocity and penetration tests for Federal HST and Winchester Ranger T ammo.

I DID buy a case of 230-gr +P Gold Dots from Underwood just before the supplies dried up. They are very stout and I think a bit much for regular shooting in the PM45. I'll save those for carbine or G21 use.

Wynn:)

[muggsy]

Old and proven technology. That guy just described muggsy to a tee. Jocko and Ol Lincoln probably fit into that category as well. Bawanna is just a kid. I like real world results and find autopsy bullets to be a bit more demonstrative than bullets from ballistic gel. Unfortunately it's a bit more difficult to find volunteers for victim testing purposes. Great videos.

[Ikeo74]

You are good to go with the 50 Gold Dots that you bought. Don't worry, you are protected. I just loaded up 50 9mm Gold Dots and the test into water jugs was amazing. I wouldn't want to be shot with a Gold Dot of any caliber or weight.

And I shot them from my 3" barrel MK9. Pictures are available. Beautiful expansion. They are handloads that I made.

[Longitude Zero]

I like real world results and find autopsy bullets to be a bit more demonstrative than bullets from ballistic gel. Unfortunately it's a bit more difficult to find volunteers for victim testing purposes. Great videos.


Post mortem bullet examination is like muggsy posted the definitive result.

[KahrArmed]

Thank you all for your responses. The videos are very good, and he really does have the correct test bullets! Thanks Wynn for the info on the short barrel rounds, I never would have known. I have never seen those available anywhere, but then with the shortage I guess i am lucky to get what I can:) I guess I will keep my eyes out for some of the short barrel rounds and use the regulars for my 1911.

[KahrArmed]

Wynn, I just found this video, worth checking out. Short barrel v. regular gold dots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoH4CMg1Shg

[feedramp]

According to the FBI the only things that matter (ignoring shot placement), are whether or not your chosen round will penetrate enough and how big of a hole it makes. Whether you choose a 9mm, a .40S&W, a .45ACP, or whatever to accomplish that goal.

As long as you can handle your chosen weapon/caliber combo.

[Bawanna]

A good hit with a 22 short is gonna ruin your day. More important things to worry about in life. I don't use +P in anything, never have, no point.

I'm also a Gold Dot fan although I've been using Winchester lately as it's available.

The beauty of the 45 if even with ball its still GOOD.

[berettabone]

I currently use HST's 147 gr. in my MK9, and use the 230 gr. HST's in my .45. I don't think you have to worry too much about all the penetration, expansion hooha.........a .45 makes a BIG hole, no matter what your using.

[wyntrout]

KahrArmed, I checked out that link. Good info and then I watched his .380 ammo test results. There's some good evaluations and discussions of the best .380 ammo. XTP bullets seemed to be the best, but check that out, too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts&feature=player_detailpage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoH4CMg1Shg)

Wynn:)

[Longitude Zero]

+P serves a purpose you just have to understand it.


45 with ball is okay and better than nothing but a +P 9mm HP will beat 45 ball. Seen the autopsies to prove it.

[KahrArmed]

Great input guys. here is a link to that guy's YouTube page, has a lot of really good comprehensive info on the effectiveness of multiple rounds up against the FBI standard and with different types of guns. That video you referred to Wynn on the .380s was really good.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ShootingTheBull410?feature=watch

[muggsy]

According to the FBI the only things that matter (ignoring shot placement), are whether or not your chosen round will penetrate enough and how big of a hole it makes. Whether you choose a 9mm, a .40S&W, a .45ACP, or whatever to accomplish that goal.

As long as you can handle your chosen weapon/caliber combo.

How can you ignore shot placement? A .22lr through a perp's forehead is going to be far more effective than a .45 ACP through a perp's foot. Just sayin.

[O'Dell]

I currently use HST's 147 gr. in my MK9, and use the 230 gr. HST's in my .45. I don't think you have to worry too much about all the penetration, expansion hooha.........a .45 makes a BIG hole, no matter what your using.

My favorite gun quote: "A 9mm may not expand, but a 45 will never shrink."

[yqtszhj]

My favorite gun quote: "A 9mm may not expand, but a 45 will never shrink."

We're going to have to call that "O'dells wise quite of the day" :Amflag2:

[gmcjetpilot]

Done my own testing with my Chrony Beta Chronograph. Bottom line:

Compared to regular ammo,
+P goes faster out of a short or a long barrel pistol = more energy

There is not much more to say. Is it necessary? I suppose if you want a
round that potentially can penetrate more. Also +P are almost always
associated with better quality bullets made to expand and not designate.

I recommend +P CCI Speer Gold Dot (very hot fast rounds), second +P
Federal HST (nice rounds used by Law Enforcement), both in 124 Grain.
The third is Hornaday +P Critical Duty 135Grain. Little disappointed the
Hornaday was a little under speed, than advertised, but then I was
shooting out of Glock 26. However the others were out of the same
Glock 26. Critical Duty is a bigger 135Gr bullet however. I am sure it will
do the job, but Gold Dot and HST are my preferences; all are rated for
penetration.

Self Defense Rounds cost a lot more, with the nickel plate case, no flash
powder and other features, I gather they're slightly higher quality control,
thus slightly higher reliability and ballistic performance. However I have
had 100% reliability with my Kahr CM9 and Glock 26 using +P self
defense rounds with regular old target grade RN 9mm ammo, commercial
reloads and my own personal reloads. I would not feed any pistol a steady
diet of +P for target shooting for cost and wear and tear on the weapon.
Some 9mm pistols like the Dimondback DB9 are not +P rated. That
is why I passed on that make and model. With that said a non +P
version of the Speer Gold Dot or other self defense round would do
the job in the DB9 or CM9/PM9. In general round nose (RN) is not
a good self defense round, +P or not.

[TheTman]

I used standard velocity 230gr Hydra Shoks in my CW45. They are said to expand at a lower velocity than many other HP bullets. I never did any testing to find out, for sure. I also heard from the gunsmith at the indoor range I go too, that using the 185gr loads with the shorter barrel .45 pistols are more effective than the 230gr, less mass to get moving to a faster velocity out of the shorter barrel. Again I didn't do any testing. Just took his word on it. That is all just hearsay, so I wouldn't take it as gospel.

[jocko]

[QUOTE=O'Dell;289544]My favorite gun quote: "A 9mm may not expand, but a 45 will never shrink."[/QUOTE

ol Jocko's favorite quote: U just gotta pray the round gets there though:D

[drewski115]

Post mortem bullet examination is like muggsy posted the definitive result.

I disagree….not about Muggsy but "post mortem being definitive result." That is like showing the winning game films of a 4-12 football team and saying they are a great team. What about the losses? What about the bullets that did not cause a death? How did they fair? All bullets from the same manufacture, the same caliber, the same box don't always yield the same result. Most shootings do not result in a death. So post mortem examination is a very very small percentage of bullets fired. Now if you mix in other bullets that were taken from a body that did not cause a death you get a better idea how good a bullet is but then there is the question what distance was the round shot at? What length of barrel? And so on. All makes a difference. Post mortem has it's place but I highly question if it is definitive. I think the FIRST video of Dave posted was the most informative. He tells shooters the best thing to do is find a caliber you can shoot well and keep on target then practice practice practice. Shot placement is king…..just saying.

[gmcjetpilot]

Here is a graph that tells the difference:
The take always:
Longer barrel more energy
+P is more energy (faster velocities)
+P helps short barrels as much or more than longer ones
Heavier bullet doesn't always mean more energy, mass x velocity squared.


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/594/pzcd.png