Dunn shooting/conviction

[bob98366]

Here is, to my admittedly non-professional mind, a decent writeup on the Dunn shooting and conviction in Florida.

http://weaponsman.com/?p=13856

It's too long to post here, and probably would violate copy write. Also, it appears the jury got it right.

[Ikeo74]

He was an Idiot!:rolleyes: He gave us all a bad name.

One thing in his favor: I think the kids ditched the gun that Dunn said they pointed at him.

[jocko]

8 killed last nite in Indianapolis. all black, all drug related, all in slum areas.in 4 different homes, .. can u spell GOOD RIDENCE???

[borg18]

Ok so I have a question...I got my carry permit recently in Pa , and my question is this. After reading that link, would u get in trouble if ur confronted with a threat ( gun , knife, etc) and u draw ur gun, have the threat back down and reholster? Or is that considered "brandishing"..I dont really want to shoot someone if I dont need to.

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[Bawanna]

In that situation you'd want to call the police and report what happened, as mentioned in that link. The first call they get they consider a victim, that would be you. Yes it's definitely brandishing but justifiable and explainable. In your scenario the bad guys most likely ain't gonna call. You'll no doubt get questioned and maybe even grilled but you should come out ok.

[JohnR]

Ok so I have a question...I got my carry permit recently in Pa , and my question is this. After reading that link, would u get in trouble if ur confronted with a threat ( gun , knife, etc) and u draw ur gun, have the threat back down and reholster? Or is that considered "brandishing"..I dont really want to shoot someone if I dont need to.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

As I understand it, no. That happens thousands of time a year. And it should be reported to police if only to get accurate crime stats.

[muggsy]

Ok so I have a question...I got my carry permit recently in Pa , and my question is this. After reading that link, would u get in trouble if ur confronted with a threat ( gun , knife, etc) and u draw ur gun, have the threat back down and reholster? Or is that considered "brandishing"..I dont really want to shoot someone if I dont need to.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

The laws on brandishing vary from State to State. It's best to research your own state laws and proceed as instructed. If my gun clears it's holster it's going to be fired.

[borg18]

The laws on brandishing vary from State to State. It's best to research your own state laws and proceed as instructed. If my gun clears it's holster it's going to be fired.

But if the threat could be stopped or deterred, wouldnt u rather do that than have that mentally? Please dont take my post the wrong way, just trying to undersrand all sides.

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[cigarrodog]

Here is, to my admittedly non-professional mind, a decent writeup on the Dunn shooting and conviction in Florida.

http://weaponsman.com/?p=13856

It's too long to post here, and probably would violate copy write. Also, it appears the jury got it right.
For an about to be Illinois CC newbie, this was a well written, thought provoking primer that should have been included in the 16 hours of required training. Prison is not the end result (of wanting to protect myself and others) that I seek. Thank you.

[Planedude]

Ok so I have a question...I got my carry permit recently in Pa , and my question is this. After reading that link, would u get in trouble if ur confronted with a threat ( gun , knife, etc) and u draw ur gun, have the threat back down and reholster? Or is that considered "brandishing"..I dont really want to shoot someone if I dont need to.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2



Not brandishing if the BG confronted you with a weapon (bat, knife, golf club, screwdriver and so on) or with a clear disparity of force (you old, him NFL lineman-ish). That would be a clear reason to upholster your own weapon.

[b4uqzme]

The laws on brandishing vary from State to State. It's best to research your own state laws and proceed as instructed. If my gun clears it's holster it's going to be fired.

I think what muggsy is saying (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that he doesn't take shooting anyone lightly and he is not going to draw his weapon until it NEEDS to be fired. The OP's post stated that he didn't want to shoot someone if he didn't need to.

I agree. I am not going to unholster my weapon with the intent to intimidate the bad guy away. That's how we get in trouble. I will only draw because there are no other options but lethal force. If I draw, I am shooting and my motive should be justifiable and brandishing shouldn't even be in the picture. Now things happen fast but if he turns and flees, I hope I am quick enough to stand down. The court will forgive you for being human but takes a hard line on being stupid.

[SlowBurn]

I'm not a quick draw. Never actually pointed a gun at anyone but I've drawn it and kept it down by my side a couple times. I'd do it again if I felt a serious threatening/vulnerable situation developing, well before the threat gets to the "shoot now" stage. In Zimmerman's shoes that's what I would have done after losing track of Martin, before getting out of the car in the dark to read the street sign. I'll worry about being charged with "brandishing" or assault later, after I live.

[aKahrt_and_p2KT]

8 killed last nite in Indianapolis. all black, all drug related, all in slum areas.in 4 different homes, .. can u spell GOOD RIDENCE???

I don't think gun violence is good no matter what the race, social class, or situation. The fact that people who should not have guns do is a bad situation and continues to support the false argument that we, law abiding gun owners should not have them either. Don't belittle yourself into a mindset that gun violence is acceptable just because those people don't look or act like you.

[chrish]

Don't really know what I think about this case. Guy seems (seems) like a bit of a hothead from the few articles I've read, but there isn't as much out there like there was in the Zimmerman case, not that I've seen. Second, and I'm not saying he was or wasn't in the right, put in the same situation I'd have kept my mouth shut from the beginning at the gas station. Filling your tank is less than 5 minutes of your life, if you can't hold your tongue and then get back in the car and scream 'damn kids' and move on w/ your day, then maybe you need some anger management courses or a session in self restraint. In many states had this escalated in a war of words before guns were drawn, he'd possibly have been considered the one that started it all. At which point you legally have to make an effort to remove yourself from the situation and then if persued you have the right to defend yourself. (That's of course before guns are drawn).


I'm not saying it didn't go down like he claimed...which if it did, I'd have to take his side. Just asking someone to turn their music down, even in a nasty tone, isn't justification for the kid to pull a gun on him. In that case, by all means, defend yourself.


Just saying learn to keep your mouth shut. Call the police if you feel somebody needs to turn their tunes down.

[getsome]

The jury may have given him the benefit of a doubt about saying he thought he saw a shotgun in the kids SUV and even if no gun was found and he made the whole thing up it would have been a good move by his Attorney to say that because it justified his actions of stand your ground and couldn't be proven either way but what really nailed him and will cost him years in prison is that he continued to fire at the vehicle even as they were trying to get away and the immediate threat to him was over....No excuse in doing that, just plain stupid and he should be charged as such....

[Longitude Zero]

Dunn screwed up. EVERYBODY who supports him is TOO STUPID TO LIVE!!!

[aKahrt_and_p2KT]

Did the NRA ever comment on this or the popcorn shooting?

[Longitude Zero]

Did the NRA ever comment on this or the popcorn shooting?


Not that I have heard or read. It really is in their best interest to not be associated with either mess.

[kahrseye]

I think what muggsy is saying (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that he doesn't take shooting anyone lightly and he is not going to draw his weapon until it NEEDS to be fired. The OP's post stated that he didn't want to shoot someone if he didn't need to.

I agree. I am not going to unholster my weapon with the intent to intimidate the bad guy away. That's how we get in trouble. I will only draw because there are no other options but lethal force. If I draw, I am shooting and my motive should be justifiable and brandishing shouldn't even be in the picture. Now things happen fast but if he turns and flees, I hope I am quick enough to stand down. The court will forgive you for being human but takes a hard line on being stupid.

I think there are times when you could pull a gun and not necessarily fire it. For example, say someone is going after a person in a car, with a baseball bat. Or you see a group of people beating on a guy. Or you see someone pull a knife to intimidate another. I would have no problem putting a gun on someone with intent to fire if the threat doesn't retreat. But I would have to feel serious bodily harm or death is imminent.

[Longitude Zero]

Virtually every study of research project states that the overwhelming majority of times a firearm is used defensively IT IS NOT FIRED. Just the mere presentation deters the crime. Now obviously you only want to draw your weapon when there is a threat of death or seriously bodily injury. But when the threat instantly disappears after you have presented your weapon it is common sense that you do not fire it.

[berettabone]

Virtually every study of research project states that the overwhelming majority of times a firearm is used defensively IT IS NOT FIRED. Just the mere presentation deters the crime. Now obviously you only want to draw your weapon when there is a threat of death or seriously bodily injury. But when the threat instantly disappears after you have presented your weapon it is common sense that you do not fire it.
Works for me................................................ ................................

[dorangolv]

I had to draw on two guys who said they were boxers and they were going, "to F*** me up!"
I went to the gas station on a busy intersection after work. It was the hottest time of day, around 5:30pm. A guy in a wife beater shirt and a woman were begging from each of the people at the gas pumps. Inside another guy was camped out next to the register asking each person in line for money as they paid for gas.
I said, "Look, man. We all work hard for our money, maybe you should too." He started yelling at me and followed me out the door. His buddy picked up on this and joined in.
These guys looked to be light Middleweights, early to mid-twenties, about 165-175lbs and nothing but lean muscle. They had broken noses and facial scares to go along with the cauliflower ears. They were following me, taunting and yelling, and getting closer as I approached my car.

I thought about Ray "Boom-Boom" Mancini and Deuk-Koo Kim who died 4 days later from brain injuries sustained in that 1983 bout. I thought I might sustain permanent disabilities like blindness.

I reached my car and opened the door. I pulled an XD45 from a nylon pouch on the front seat and pointed it at the forehead of the guy closest to me. I heard a woman scream. The muzzle was about 12 inches from his face. I told them, "I am afraid for my life. You two need to turn around and walk away... NOW!!"
They didn't back down right away. One guy said, "we're gonna beat the living s*** out of you and then take your f***ing gun!"
I knew they probably would do just that. I was afraid I might not pull the trigger and they would get the jump on me. That's when I got really scared because I realized the only way this is going to end is with gunfire. I repeated the same phrase 2 or 3 more times.
Eventually they did back off and leave but only because it was daylight with too many witnesses and a panicked gas station attendant begging them to leave.
I sat in the car for a few minutes waiting for the shaking to stop before I could drive home.
That was 2007. I never have told my wife about it.

[Longitude Zero]

I am glad it turned out well for you. However when they refused and instead doubled down and threatened to beat you and take you gun that is when I would have dropped both of them like bad habits. It would have been childs play to articulate that even after the firearm was presented they continued their threatening behavior. I only give one warning prior to BANG. I suggest others adopt a suitably ruthless mindset. Again I am glad it worked for you. Frankly I am surprised based upon violent subject behavior it worked.

[kwh]

Thanks for sharing a real life story. Do not know exactly what I would have done with someone so intimidating so close to me. I also am glad that if worked out well for you and no court system was involved. Two take home lessons for me. Always keep the firearm on my person,situations happen quickly and always try to just ignore all potential troublemakers.

[bob98366]

Thanks for telling your experience. Dealing with irrational people and druggies not in the real world certainly makes scenarios unpredictable. Sitting at a computer it's easy to say what I'd do, but at the moment who knows.

[RainingAgain]

He was an Idiot!:rolleyes: He gave us all a bad name.

One thing in his favor: I think the kids ditched the gun that Dunn said they pointed at him.I have a tough question for you. If you had been in that van AND armed, wouldn't you have fired back? Since there was no return fire by any of the teens, what does that tell you?

I believe there were witness to the van's brief travel and no one saw them dump a weapon and none was ever found.

[RainingAgain]

I'm not a quick draw. Never actually pointed a gun at anyone but I've drawn it and kept it down by my side a couple times. I'd do it again if I felt a serious threatening/vulnerable situation developing, well before the threat gets to the "shoot now" stage. In Zimmerman's shoes that's what I would have done after losing track of Martin, before getting out of the car in the dark to read the street sign. I'll worry about being charged with "brandishing" or assault later, after I live.

Funny, your Zimmerman comment is exactly what many believe happened and EXACTLY WHY they feel he is guilty of murder.

[RainingAgain]

The jury may have given him the benefit of a doubt about saying he thought he saw a shotgun in the kids SUV and even if no gun was found and he made the whole thing up it would have been a good move by his Attorney to say that because it justified his actions of stand your ground and couldn't be proven either way but what really nailed him and will cost him years in prison is that he continued to fire at the vehicle even as they were trying to get away and the immediate threat to him was over....No excuse in doing that, just plain stupid and he should be charged as such....How Dunn behaved afterwards speaks volumes about his guilt....and then there's that shooting at a fleeing van. The man is an idiot and guilty as hell.

Since he's going away on three gun related felonies with 20 year mandatory consecutive sentences, retrying him for murder 1 is assinine. Corey is using tax money foolishly to further her political ambitions.

[berettabone]

I had to draw on two guys who said they were boxers and they were going, "to F*** me up!"
I went to the gas station on a busy intersection after work. It was the hottest time of day, around 5:30pm. A guy in a wife beater shirt and a woman were begging from each of the people at the gas pumps. Inside another guy was camped out next to the register asking each person in line for money as they paid for gas.
I said, "Look, man. We all work hard for our money, maybe you should too." He started yelling at me and followed me out the door. His buddy picked up on this and joined in.
These guys looked to be light Middleweights, early to mid-twenties, about 165-175lbs and nothing but lean muscle. They had broken noses and facial scares to go along with the cauliflower ears. They were following me, taunting and yelling, and getting closer as I approached my car.

I thought about Ray "Boom-Boom" Mancini and Deuk-Koo Kim who died 4 days later from brain injuries sustained in that 1983 bout. I thought I might sustain permanent disabilities like blindness.

I reached my car and opened the door. I pulled an XD45 from a nylon pouch on the front seat and pointed it at the forehead of the guy closest to me. I heard a woman scream. The muzzle was about 12 inches from his face. I told them, "I am afraid for my life. You two need to turn around and walk away... NOW!!"
They didn't back down right away. One guy said, "we're gonna beat the living s*** out of you and then take your f***ing gun!"
I knew they probably would do just that. I was afraid I might not pull the trigger and they would get the jump on me. That's when I got really scared because I realized the only way this is going to end is with gunfire. I repeated the same phrase 2 or 3 more times.
Eventually they did back off and leave but only because it was daylight with too many witnesses and a panicked gas station attendant begging them to leave.
I sat in the car for a few minutes waiting for the shaking to stop before I could drive home.
That was 2007. I never have told my wife about it.
Actually, since you say the muzzle was 12 in. from a face, you're lucky they didn't take it from you, and put it where there is no light. You should have never let them get that close in the first place. As soon as they said that they were going to take your firearm, and beat you, you should have dropped the one of your choice, like a bad habit. No expert, but NEVER put your firearm where someone else can get a hold of it. BIG mistake. You were lucky.:o

[kahrseye]

Actually, since you say the muzzle was 12 in. from a face, you're lucky they didn't take it from you, and put it where there is no light. You should have never let them get that close in the first place. As soon as they said that they were going to take your firearm, and beat you, you should have dropped the one of your choice, like a bad habit. No expert, but NEVER put your firearm where someone else can get a hold of it. BIG mistake. You were lucky.:o

I understand what you're saying and I agree. But I think a point needs to be made here. Many of us sitting in front of our computers, thinking of how we would react in a given situation, don't really know how we're going to react in an actual situation. Dorangolv did everything he could, not to shoot. I would be willing to bet most of us do not want to shoot anyone and would also go to great lengths to avoid it. And isn't that the way it's supposed to be. Was the threat real? I'd say yes and I think most would agree with that statement. While it did work out for him, the next time it may not and he may have to fire. It's a precarious line we walk but in the end I'd rather have the ability to decide for myself than to trust others to do the right thing. :Amflag2:

[getsome]

Glad that one worked out ok for you there Dorangolv....I'm hearing folks say they would have dropped those two in their tracks like a bad habit but with todays court system the reality of doing that would have likely been prison time....We all learn from our mistakes and like kahrseye said it's easy to say what you would have done while typing into a forum from your living room but if faced with the same thing in the real world I don't think any of us know exactly what we would do...

In this case Dorangolv made a mistake by going into a convenience store unarmed and leaving his firearm in the car which made him have to leave the store and end up in the parking lot alone with a couple of thugs....I hope he had his cell phone in his pocket because if you carry a gun you better have one to get to the Police first if you have to shoot someone...He made a mistake by saying go get a job to the thug inside the store instead of just saying no or even better ignoring him altogether...

When the punks started following him to the car he should have been on the phone to 911 to report that he was being threatened, possibly robbed and in fear of his life so that an officer would be enroute and the situation recorded...

When the situation escalated and they threatened to do bodily harm it was time to bring out the weapon which should have been on his person but even at that point had he shot one it would have been a bad shoot BUT the minute one or both started to advance or reach for the gun it's go time and would likely be ruled self defense and having the video from the store to back it up would likely seal it as a good self defense shoot...Remember we are on video when out in public most of the time so it can be your friend in court or come back to bite you if you try and fudge the facts....

Glad this one worked out and nobody got hurt and this scenario has been a good one to learn from because most all of us have been approached by bums and punks asking for money which sometimes can get ugly especially if alcohol is involved....

[aKahrt_and_p2KT]

If you feel threatened enough to pull a gun on someone I would believe that's enough of a threat to get the police involved no matter how it ended.

[berettabone]

My comments weren't a knock or disparagement of this gentleman, and I wasn't there. I can guarantee, that no matter what the situation, people, shoot, don't shoot..........I would have never placed my firearm within someone's reach. That's basically my gist. I am glad he didn't have to shoot someone. Saves a lot of crap. I think we have to realize, that these days, the world is very different. You have to keep in mind, that when someone asks, begs, whatever your perspective is, for money...........when you say, " Look man, we all work hard for our money, maybe you should too.", maybe isn't the right thing to say, to two nasty looking mugs. Before you get proficient with your firearm, you should also become proficient with your mouth. Your mouth is one of your best weapons. Personally, I hate it when someone asks for money. I will usually say, " well, I don't have a lot of money, but if you need something to eat, I'll take you to George Webbs." They usually turn the offer down, since they need it for drugs or booze. It's probably saved me a hassle a time or two. What do I want to say? Not printable. Glad he didn't get hurt.

[Bawanna]

What's George Webb's. Half way house for meth heads?

[berettabone]

What's George Webb's. Half way house for meth heads?
Actually, at some times and in some neighborhoods, and drunks also, yes................open 24 hrs......good inexpensive food, especially breakfast, where they still use REAL butter...............I could tell you stories about a few of them, that I've been in. Still go to one occasionally, close to my neighborhood. George Webb Corp. is a chain of 31 restaurants in Wisc. Lunch counter style, great burgers, soup, chili.................the drunker you are, the better the food tastes. The 31 might be going down, as some of these restaurants, are being turned into Griddlers. Same food, higher price.http://kahrtalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Bawanna]

Aww, gotcha. Like a local Denny's or IHOP active during the hours normal people sleep. A place cops usually drop folks off after arrest or contact to await a ride or soberness or to plan their next crime.

Never heard of that one, course I never been near Wisconsin neither.

[b4uqzme]

you should also become proficient with your mouth. Your mouth is one of your best weapons. .


As long as you keep it shut. Very good advice berettabone.

[dorangolv]

Brand new gun owner. I think I only had it for a year tops by that time. Didn't have a CCW or cell phone back then, either. Just walking from the pump to the cash register. I probably shouldn't have said anything to the guy inside at the counter. I didn't know he was with the two outside. There were lots of people around. After work traffic, every pump had a car in front of it. Looking back I probably could've shot the first guy. But they didn't really look like they were going to follow through with the threats. Mostly, I think they were just trying to save face and not walk away without puffing out their chests and beating their wings a bit. And there was the gas station attendant standing right there talking to them begging them to turn around. I'm not sure but he probably told me, "Don't shoot, don't shoot!"
Now if it was late at night with only me and those two guys... yeah. Shots fired.

[berettabone]

Brand new gun owner. I think I only had it for a year tops by that time. Didn't have a CCW or cell phone back then, either. Just walking from the pump to the cash register. I probably shouldn't have said anything to the guy inside at the counter. I didn't know he was with the two outside. There were lots of people around. After work traffic, every pump had a car in front of it. Looking back I probably could've shot the first guy. But they didn't really look like they were going to follow through with the threats. Mostly, I think they were just trying to save face and not walk away without puffing out their chests and beating their wings a bit. And there was the gas station attendant standing right there talking to them begging them to turn around. I'm not sure but he probably told me, "Don't shoot, don't shoot!"
Now if it was late at night with only me and those two guys... yeah. Shots fired.
We probably would have been smuggling cigarettes to you in prisonhttp://kahrtalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif