PM9 Trigger Upgrades

[spikesrus850t]

Hey members I just posted but I think I did it in the wrong area. Here is what I would like to know. Has anyone heard is there is any company that makes any parts for PM9 to improve the trigger? Maybe a sear that improves on the trigger reset and the actual trigger pull. I strongly feel that the PM9 is a very reliable gun for the size however it is the trigger why most people dislike. I would like to improve the trigger to make my PM9 my primary carry gun. Any thoughts or suggestions.

[berettabone]

Hey members I just posted but I think I did it in the wrong area. Here is what I would like to know. Has anyone heard is there is any company that makes any parts for PM9 to improve the trigger? Maybe a sear that improves on the trigger reset and the actual trigger pull. I strongly feel that the PM9 is a very reliable gun for the size however it is the trigger why most people dislike. I would like to improve the trigger to make my PM9 my primary carry gun. Any thoughts or suggestions.
Check answers on other posthttp://kahrtalk.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

[jocko]

Hey members I just posted but I think I did it in the wrong area. Here is what I would like to know. Has anyone heard is there is any company that makes any parts for PM9 to improve the trigger? Maybe a sear that improves on the trigger reset and the actual trigger pull. I strongly feel that the PM9 is a very reliable gun for the size however it is the trigger why most people dislike. I would like to improve the trigger to make my PM9 my primary carry gun. Any thoughts or suggestions.

want a trigger pull f less than 3/8" then buy the kahr models that have the enhanced triggerin them with the also manuyal safety on them. If u want a kahr with less trigger pull as far as poundage is concerned then go to wollfs gunsprings and buy their 5# strie spring.

Kinda har dto figure people out someimes If u want asingle action type gun then buy a 1911, kahrs have no safety utter than ur fokin brain and keeping ur triger finger in ur ose. If u reduced the kahr trigger travel downto wha tthe enhanced version has with no safety u would have one hell of a ahir trigger. It would then be a 1/4" trigger travel. That IMO is a dangerous trtigger with no kind fo safety on it. There fore u have the enhanced version with a safety on it. U dont have to use it but it is there and common sense would probably tellyou to USE IT.

Kahr offers what ur asking, u ust need to do some more research. I would not want a kahr with a 1/4" TRIGGER TRAVEL AND NO SAFETRY BEING OFFERED ON THE GUN. i POCKET CARRY MY pmj9 24/7AND i FEEL TOTALLY SAFE WITH THE 3/8" TRIGER TRAVEL, but no way would I pcket a 1/4" trigger travel without some kind of manual safety.


If u want a target gun also, then buy a single action semi of any maker and it will outshoot a kahr..:amflag:

[jocko]

Hey members I just posted but I think I did it in the wrong area. Here is what I would like to know. Has anyone heard is there is any company that makes any parts for PM9 to improve the trigger? Maybe a sear that improves on the trigger reset and the actual trigger pull. I strongly feel that the PM9 is a very reliable gun for the size however it is the trigger why most people dislike. I would like to improve the trigger to make my PM9 my primary carry gun. Any thoughts or suggestions.

sure in the fokk is news to me that people dislike kahrs trigger system It has to be the smoothest system ever made simpler than any system I have ever seen. if u can't shoot a double action wheel gun then IMO u can't shoot a kahr.

[spikesrus850t]

Hey thanks for the input, the enhanced trigger with the safety is an option. I am of the notion that I do not want external safeties, mainly in a stressed situation I might not disengage it. If you carry in your pocket all the time I totally understand why you would not want to touch it, however there has to be someone out there that can make the reset shorter. I would like to carry in a IWB just trying to improve it just a bit.

[LT Drebin]

If u want a target gun also, then buy a single action semi of any maker and it will outshoot a kahr..:amflag:

That is the thing. It's not designed to be a range gun or send 10 rounds down range in the blink of an eye. However, as a self-defense weapon, I think the trigger is fine. It's a very smooth pull to bang.

[kahrnut1]

i only bought 7 of them i thought the trigger was so bad. there are guns out there with triggers like u want why not buy one of those rather than mess with a proven design.

[itsthelaw]

Better off buying a different gun if you want a different trigger.

[Alfonse]

I haven't done it, but I believe you can change to the 5 lb striker spring (Wolff Gun Springs) and that is supposed to lighten the pull a bit. I think some of the respondents to this thread have already done that mod.

[timmy]

Galloway Precision is suppose to be comming out with a trigger sear i emailed them the other day they replied they should be available next month i want to get the new sear and try a wolff 5# striker spring

[Alfonse]

It seems like the Galloway Precision sear has been about a month out for years now.

[muggsy]

Hey thanks for the input, the enhanced trigger with the safety is an option. I am of the notion that I do not want external safeties, mainly in a stressed situation I might not disengage it. If you carry in your pocket all the time I totally understand why you would not want to touch it, however there has to be someone out there that can make the reset shorter. I would like to carry in a IWB just trying to improve it just a bit.

I can clear the holster and empty my CM9 in 3 seconds. There is nothing wrong with the long trigger reset. It gives you a margin of safety. Learn to shoot the gun.

[spikesrus850t]

Great Timmy keep me posted please. Not sure if I would change the striker spring yet, don't want any failure to fire issues, but the sear could change how far you would have to pull and release to reset the trigger. I want you all to know that the PM9 is a very capable gun just look at jocko(32000 rds) and if you could make the trigger better it might just become the range gun but in a smaller size.

[WilliamG]

want a trigger pull f less than 3/8" then buy the kahr models that have the enhanced triggerin them with the also manuyal safety on them. If u want a kahr with less trigger pull as far as poundage is concerned then go to wollfs gunsprings and buy their 5# strie spring.

Kinda har dto figure people out someimes If u want asingle action type gun then buy a 1911, kahrs have no safety utter than ur fokin brain and keeping ur triger finger in ur ose. If u reduced the kahr trigger travel downto wha tthe enhanced version has with no safety u would have one hell of a ahir trigger. It would then be a 1/4" trigger travel. That IMO is a dangerous trtigger with no kind fo safety on it. There fore u have the enhanced version with a safety on it. U dont have to use it but it is there and common sense would probably tellyou to USE IT.

Kahr offers what ur asking, u ust need to do some more research. I would not want a kahr with a 1/4" TRIGGER TRAVEL AND NO SAFETRY BEING OFFERED ON THE GUN. i POCKET CARRY MY pmj9 24/7AND i FEEL TOTALLY SAFE WITH THE 3/8" TRIGER TRAVEL, but no way would I pcket a 1/4" trigger travel without some kind of manual safety.


If u want a target gun also, then buy a single action semi of any maker and it will outshoot a kahr..:amflag:

OK Jocko. I have to ask. How drunk were you when you wrote the second paragraph?

[RainingAgain]

Great Timmy keep me posted please. Not sure if I would change the striker spring yet, don't want any failure to fire issues, but the sear could change how far you would have to pull and release to reset the trigger. I want you all to know that the PM9 is a very capable gun just look at jocko(32000 rds) and if you could make the trigger better it might just become the range gun but in a smaller size.

The Kahr trigger is probably the best of its type. It certainly isn't for everyone and it does take more practice than many want to invest.

There are other trigger types which may meet your personal preference (which is all this is). Have you tried a Beretta Nano or a Glock 26. These conceal well in an IWB. I particularly like the slim aspect to the Nano. It carries easily because of that and its light weight. If you want more capacity and versatility, the G26 can be carried 10+1, 12+1 using a mag extension, or even even 15+1 using a G19 mag. Heck, at night, put a 31 round mag in it and use it bedside.

I find it easier to shoot the Nano and G26 because they handle recoil better and the use a trigger I am used to and prefer. If you want a range gun with a short, light pull and an awesome reset, get a Walther PPQ.

Good luck in your quest.

[spikesrus850t]

Alright Mugsy, that is great and maybe I need more practice, what size are the grouping? Maybe it is just me, when I tried that I was not able to produce groups smaller that about 5 to 10 inches at seven yards. Looks good on paper but remember paper targets do not move. With lots of practice I must say it has improved but I feel with a little help it could get it to maybe under 5 inches. Just saying it won't happen without practice but every little bit of help counts when it comes to shot placement. I am impressed with the PM9 but there is still room to improve it and make it better. Appreciate the comments will keep practicing until I can try the replacement parts.

[berettabone]

They aren't target guns, Geeez..................they're personal defense guns. If you can put your shots on the paper at 7 yds, be happy, for christ sake. If you actually think, that your going to shoot 2 in. groups at 25 yds., I hope you have lots of time and money.

[jocko]

when are u gus ever gonna wake up. IT IS ALWAYS THE GUNS FAULT. Never the shooter.

If one is not happy with kahrs trigger system and the groups ur getting PEDDLE THE FOKKER and leave us who like what we have and know why we bought the gun ALONE

When we sold wheel guns back years ago, to every owner, I shot with many of them and they couldbn'thit jack sh!t with shooting it double action, so most all coked the hammer kand fired it single action. Certainly that way of shooting is more accurate, thats why ost shoot 1911's in compettion also. Not that they are more accurate, but they are a more accurate gun to shoot. Now stick that 1911 in ur fokking pocket cocked and loceked and see how comfortable and mentally safe u think u are.

the more one shoots a kahr the better he will get but IMO and from experience of over 32K rounds throug my PMJ9. I do not shoot it well, compared to my tuned and accurate glock 19 with adjustabel sighres reworked action etc. I certainly don't criticize me kahr over that glock for I would not stick that fokking glock in my pocket with a round in the chamber if it meant world peace.

If u bought a kahr for target type reasons, u bought the wrong gun, if u are like me and own a kahr ad don't shoot 2-4" groups and u just can't handle that sh!ty, THEN PEDDLE THE FOKKER.
We all wnat to shoot better, that is a given, that is why we practice to, vbut as accurate as my glock is, it stays home while my pMJ9 is in mypocket 24/7. I feel very good about it in a defense situation. :Amflag2:

[itsthelaw]

Again...get a different gun.

[jocko]

Alright Mugsy, that is great and maybe I need more practice, what size are the grouping? Maybe it is just me, when I tried that I was not able to produce groups smaller that about 5 to 10 inches at seven yards. Looks good on paper but remember paper targets do not move. With lots of practice I must say it has improved but I feel with a little help it could get it to maybe under 5 inches. Just saying it won't happen without practice but every little bit of help counts when it comes to shot placement. I am impressed with the PM9 but there is still room to improve it and make it better. Appreciate the comments will keep practicing until I can try the replacement parts.

5" inches groups are very acceptabe. 1`0" groups to me spells more rounds needt. just saying 5-10 groups leave alot of speculation. Try pOA shooting, it is faster, u will not get same hole groups but u willget fast and in a SHTF ur never gonna see anything but theat front site AT BEST, so try that method. Get good at 5 yards, get fast at 5 yars, fokk those groupls. buy the FBI "q" type silhouette bowling pin type target with no bulls eye. Keep um all in that , which no doubt u can do and ur are good to go. BG don't have bulle eyes on them, got for COM and be happy if they stay all in that Q target, THEY WILL I have no doubt bout that.:amflag:

[getsome]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-gzNi6MRwI

I just picked up one of these and still doing the break in and I just wanted to know if anybody knows of a company that makes a faster engine for this thing....I know somebody has got to make something to make it go faster...It's ok stock but I know I could improve on it so it would go faster and scare the chit outta me sooner......

Sheeesh, some people can't be happy with anything....Can't do better than a Kahr trigger....Leave perfection out of the box alone!!!!

[itsthelaw]

Yeah...the C7 Corvette isn't very good for going through the Wendy's drive through. Could we slow it down and maybe raise it up a few feet, so I can get my Baconator without having to reach too high.

[jocko]

Yeah...the C7 Corvette isn't very good for going through the Wendy's drive through. Could we slow it down and maybe raise it up a few feet, so I can get my Baconator without having to reach too high.

Harely can go that fast:amflag::D

[DLButler]

I have no problem with the trigger. I shoot my CW45 at IDPA all the time and the CM9 at BUG matches. They get as many down Zero's as anything else I shoot and at the same speed.

[hardknocks1]

Hello all
I would sure like to have a shorter pull/reset on my pm9 and hope this company can make it happen.
that being said I like the trigger on my K9 better than the PM9 as it seems shorter and lighter.
I think it may be the shape of the trigger and trigger guard.
yep!

[spikesrus850t]

I have listened to everyones opinions and taken it in stride. We all have opinions and will never agree on many things. In the mean time I will continue to practice with what I have and wait till someone has a component that may change the length of the trigger pull and reset of the PM. Again I have never said the the trigger on the PM9 is not smooth or is too hard, just that I think it is long, and could be improved. Again that is just my opinion. If and when I am able to try the upgraded sear I will inform you guys of the progress.

[RRP]

I have never said the the trigger on the PM9 is not smooth or is too hard, just that I think it is long, and could be improved. Again that is just my opinion. If and when I am able to try the upgraded sear I will inform you guys of the progress.

The trigger pull is long and that is an intentional design.

In the absence of other manual safety devices, Kahr believes that a long trigger pull is necessary to make this gun safe for deep concealment. That is why their engineers have designed Kahr pistols with a long pull; it is integral to the safety design of the gun. So altering the length (or weight) of a trigger pull could be viewed by a jury as tampering with a safety device.

If you ever used such a gun in a defensive shooting, you can bet the prosecutor will use this against you. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, spikesrus is so reckless, he intentionally and knowingly altered the safety mechanism of his gun, apparently believing he is smarter than the manufacturer."

I am careful not to make changes to my carry guns that could, needlessly, complicate my defense.

YMMV.

[muggsy]

Alright Mugsy, that is great and maybe I need more practice, what size are the grouping? Maybe it is just me, when I tried that I was not able to produce groups smaller that about 5 to 10 inches at seven yards. Looks good on paper but remember paper targets do not move. With lots of practice I must say it has improved but I feel with a little help it could get it to maybe under 5 inches. Just saying it won't happen without practice but every little bit of help counts when it comes to shot placement. I am impressed with the PM9 but there is still room to improve it and make it better. Appreciate the comments will keep practicing until I can try the replacement parts.

I can keep all of my shots within a three inch circle at seven yards rapid fire. No matter how short the reset your still have to recover from recoil. You have ample time to reset a Kahr trigger while you are bringing your sights to bear. When I point shoot I can keep all of my shots center mass. If you want to see just how fast you can shoot a long double action trigger watch the link below. A very wise man once told me don't fix what ain't broke. (Miculek is an old man. A very dangerous old man)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM

[berettabone]

I can keep all of my shots within a three inch circle at seven yards rapid fire. No matter how short the reset your still have to recover from recoil. You have ample time to reset a Kahr trigger while you are bringing your sights to bear. When I point shoot I can keep all of my shots center mass. If you want to see just how fast you can shoot a long double action trigger watch the link below. A very wise man once told me don't fix what ain't broke. (Miculek is an old man. A very dangerous old man)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM
Gotta watch out for those old men.................http://kahrtalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[muggsy]

Gotta watch out for those old men.................http://kahrtalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I got to be an old man by not messing with any old men. :)

[spikesrus850t]

That is very good sir, I had my real first experience last month and I tell that the target looked like I used a shotgun. It is obviously something I need to work on and will attempt to get it down to an acceptable size. I like my PM9 very much and would like to try and improve the way it shoots. Thanks again.

[itsthelaw]

Focus should be on the tool handling the gun, not on the tool in you hand. The gun is pretty simple, but the shooter is more complex. Many more variables with the shooter than the gun.

[bugs]

I'm surprised no one has offered this thought; if you are doing trigger mods on a gun that will be used in competition only, fine, good luck to you; if you do trigger mods to your EDC gun and heaven forbid you have to use it, you,the gun, and your ammo WILL be gone over with the FINEST TOOTH COMB you ever saw, and you better have a lawyer who CONVINCINGLY EXPLAIN why the trigger was changed from mfg.specs , because SOMEBODY is going to use these mods in a wrongful death suit to paint you as a crazed Rambutt. I have no personal experiences thank God, but in today's sue happy world it seems to make sense to keep yourself as far beyond reproach as possible.

NRA LIFER
IDPA BELEIVER

[Bawanna]

It's come up many times before, just not in this thread.

Your correct in that it is a sue happy world we live in.

One reason I never carry reloads, only store bought factory. It won't save me in court but it might help. Anything you do to a gun mechanically or cosmetically is going to paint you as a crazed Rambutt, kind of a catchy title.

Battle on the street is easy, well not easy but pretty clear cut. Battle in courts with lawyers is guaranteed to get ugly regardless if you are right or wrong. That's just what lawyers do.

[b4uqzme]

I'm surprised no one has offered this thought; if you are doing trigger mods on a gun that will be used in competition only, fine, good luck to you; if you do trigger mods to your EDC gun and heaven forbid you have to use it, you,the gun, and your ammo WILL be gone over with the FINEST TOOTH COMB you ever saw, and you better have a lawyer who CONVINCINGLY EXPLAIN why the trigger was changed from mfg.specs , because SOMEBODY is going to use these mods in a wrongful death suit to paint you as a crazed Rambutt. I have no personal experiences thank God, but in today's sue happy world it seems to make sense to keep yourself as far beyond reproach as possible.

NRA LIFER
IDPA BELEIVER

Valid point. But if those mods actually help you shoot better and survive the ordeal, it would be worth it wouldn't it? I try to carry what gives me the best chance of winning --- balanced out as best as possible with all those other factors like liability, conceal-ability, etc.

[finpro]

I have read similar comments about modifications by those I respect and I believe them. I have also read that if a shooting is lawful and justifiable and not plausibly the fault of gun modification, it seldom goes further and I believe this as well. I have no doubt that prosecutor and trial lawyer overreaches do occur, but I wonder if judges and juries buy into it. I have been impressed by the thoughtfulness and diligence of juries on which I have served. That said, I have never been involved in any proceeding involving a gun modification. Outcomes would likely depend on where this takes place as much as the facts and circumstances of what has occurred.

Gun modifications are common, of course, and frequently concern grips, sights, finishes, internal polishing, etc. that are likely uncontroversial. With triggers, I suspect that valid defenses would be that modifications were made by routine or upgraded parts replacement, break-in and wear, to accommodate a handicap or disability, etc. Replacing OEM parts with those that are manufacturer options or similar to those, such as Glock trigger parts consisting of springs and release geometry, which are available in other models, would be easily defensible. (I modified my Glock to a heavier 8 pound New York trigger spring and a lighter release - a combination I read was safer and better for carry and which I prefer.) The options a few in Kahrs, but internal polishing and the Wolff lighter spring can do a lot. In a prospective legal proceeding, I think the test would be whether the modification made the gun unsafe for its intended use. House guns would likely have greater latitude than carry guns, I think. I also imagine that a reasonable comparison to common police pistols in trigger weight, length of pull and reset, etc. should be a reasonable defense.

This is not meant as legal advice, which I am not qualified to give. Nothing always succeeds. While I would avoid ammunition with names like "Super Atomic Devastator" and engraved slogans like "Kill them all and let God sort them out", I come down on the side of anything that improves your chances in a gunfight is likely better in the long run. A lawyer once told me that, regarding self-defense, he would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six. (He was later tried by twelve in an unrelated matter.)

Something to try for faster shooting is a "Bill Drill" that I encountered years ago. It was supposedly invented by Bill Wilson of Wilson Tactical and the founder of IDPA. IIRC, it consists of shooting six rounds into the inner COM area of an IDPA target, as fast as possible, until all are hits. Initially, this might be very close to the target. When six fast hits can be done repeatedly, the distances increase. This balances speed and accuracy, which a different discipline for most shooters, and which are important in real encounters. (Happily, I have never even been close to a real encounter, so keep this in mind.) While Kahr triggers are not perfect for fast shooting, with practice, great improvement is possible. I would start with such practice. At the very least, you would learn if the issue is, in fact, the trigger. I found that, in Kahrs, I did not like .40 S&W or MK pistols. A lesson to me was that more goes into fast shooting than a trigger, such as recoil recovery, firmness of my grip and length of pistol grip. I believe that too fast a trigger may diminish accuracy - just a thought. I suggest you find what works best for you, which may well be different from what works best for others.

[finpro]

Correction: Bill Wilson's company is "Wilson Combat", makers of high end 1911 pattern pistols and parts.

Also, I remembered something that helps to fire Kahrs faster. You can shorten the trigger pull by installing a trigger overtravel stop. Mine consist of small rubber corks, cut to fit and glued onto the frame behind the trigger. It is cut short enough to allow the trigger to travel rearward just beyond where the gun fires and then prevent further trigger travel. This does not shorten trigger travel from the forward position to the striker release point, but, by preventing further backward travel, it allows forward trigger motion sooner, which can shorten the intervals between shots. By having less finger motion, it promotes better accuracy, since there is less motion from the firing point until the bullet leaves the barrel. Basically, it has the advantages of any overtravel stop, but due to the length of a Kahr trigger pull and the effort required, it may be more helpful. This modification works on other long travel DAO pistols as well.

Mine are not pretty due to a sloppy job gluing the cork in place, but are effective in my old style P9 and PM9. Once installed, they are very unobtrusive. It is not a permanent modification and could be removed to restore the gun to its earlier condition. I think the black rubber corks are for test tubes or similar lab uses and are inexpensive. I never installed one on my newer K9 because its overtravel is minimal. I am not familiar with the newer polymer Kahrs and this may or may not be helpful. FWIW, I doubt a hostile lawyer could make much of it as it appears harmless and can be justified as making the gun more accurate and comfortable to shoot.

I wish someone would make a similar product which would be more elegant than my crude setup and allow adjustment. On mine, once installed, the overtravel can be increased by removing small slices of the front of the cork.

[CJB]

if you do trigger mods to your EDC gun and heaven forbid you have to use it, you,the gun, and your ammo WILL be gone over with the FINEST TOOTH COMB you ever saw, and you better have a lawyer who CONVINCINGLY EXPLAIN why the trigger was changed from mfg.specs , because SOMEBODY is going to use these mods in a wrongful death suit to paint you as a crazed Rambutt.

Massad Ayoob has made a livelihood of preaching that, but to the best of my knowledge, there has only been one case where this was brought up, he was on it, and has run that mantra for a long time. Sounds very warm and fuzzy. Sounds like the sort of thing that would make the boys at the bar rub their whiskers and mutter "hmmmm". In real practice, its not much of a big deal.

Put this way.... You bought a car, you put wide tires on it. You put low restriction exhaust and a new "chip" in its brain. You did this and that and all the little doo-dads to get "performance" from it. You're going down the road and a kid pops out from between two parked cars and there is a traffic fatality. Will they go after you because of your car's performance modifications? You were observing all traffic laws. Everything legal. No way you could see the kid, as they were shorter than the cars, and they just came running out at the last possible instant. Are the cars mods a relevant contributing factor to the traffic fatality, and are you responsible because of those?

[b4uqzme]

^^^ good example

[Bawanna]

I disagree. Even liberals have cars, even lawyers and Judges have cars. To them a car is a necessity, mode of transportation with no evil intent or value. They don't have the capacity to associate big engines or hood scoops or fancy paint jobs as anything other than making the car nicer.

Guns on the other hand are evil before they leave the drawing board. To them John Moses Browning was the devil incarnate for ever inventing such things.

So any modification can only make it more evil, more dangerous and of course much less desirable. They should be melted down into man hole covers or something useful like bumpers for their BMW's and Mercedes.

Perhaps a better example would be pressure cookers, since most probably aren't much for cooking, all they know is them being used for making bombs, thus evil. So anything you do to modify your pressure cooker has to make it more evil and make it blow up bigger.

Your witness.....................

[bugs]

I can agree that changing sights may pass the smell test because most training classes teach front sight importance; but I don't know any that advocate modifying fire controls.that would be a hard sell to a jury I think.

I would plan a worse case event that a jury would be composed of people who have little or no knowledge of firearms,and some who may be anti 2A.; remember how a jury is empaneled? it is just to much to risk.

my CM9 has the normal Kahr trigger, while I won't claim to have mastered it,I have come, thru many rounds down range, to feel that it is not a handicap for me either in competition or on the street. keep practicing with the stock trigger and you will feel more comfortable.

NRA LIFER
IDPA BELEIVER

[CJB]

And I say, show me the case law. I don't believe it exists in more than a statistically meaningless number of oddball twisted cases.

I would be more afraid of an AD or ND with a mondifed weapon, not the fallout from a legal act of self defense. In the instance of a legal act of self defense there is justified effect based on a provable cause. But where there is an AD or ND, and the weapon was modified.... well that is a whole other can of worms.

In self defense, we act in order to stop a threat. Jurisdictions vary as to what is thought of as a threat in legal terms when pertaining to self defense, so ... you need to have at least a fair idea of the local law pertaining to self defense. But, the idea was to stop the bad guy anyway, so it if took two shots or six, or ten... if the bad guy was still a threat, there was justifiaction in continuing actions in an effort to stop the threat.

But that AD.... that ND..... that's where you'll get nailed. If you modified the weapon to make it easier to shoot.... altered a safety..... brotha, if your gun went off by accident, you are screwd, drawn, quartered, nailed to the cross and left to rot in a world of puke.

Just like that car scenario, if you're modified, driving totally legally... something might happen. But if you're hot roddin' down the road and you hit that little kid, brother, its vehicular homicide.

Your witness Col.

[diablo53]

For that matter, if a modified gun makes you more likely to be raked over the coals by a lawyer, the type of gun or the style could be used against you as well. A gun w/o a safety vs one with a safety, or a larger caliber or longer barrel than other models. Guns are designed to go bang when the trigger is pulled. The mechanisms inside are designed with reliability/cost/and niche in mind. Just because you modified your trigger to make it more smooth does not mean you are a villain, because you likely could have just purchased a gun with the trigger already like that from the factory. As long as the gun still functions as intended by the manufacturer (ie one round at a time, every time, and not until the trigger is depressed) it would be a long leap to be strung up by a jury due to personal preference.

Just don't tell them you did the mod to make it easier to kill bad guys!

[berettabone]

It's come up many times before, just not in this thread.

Your correct in that it is a sue happy world we live in.

One reason I never carry reloads, only store bought factory. It won't save me in court but it might help. Anything you do to a gun mechanically or cosmetically is going to paint you as a crazed Rambutt, kind of a catchy title.

Battle on the street is easy, well not easy but pretty clear cut. Battle in courts with lawyers is guaranteed to get ugly regardless if you are right or wrong. That's just what lawyers do.
You are correct sir. Because you see, it doesn't matter what case law is, it doesn't matter whether it was legal or not. All a lawyer has to do, is tell a jury that you were armed with a Glock 23 compensated, with a Sim Sam Sala Bim trigger at 3 lbs., with Bing Bang Night sights in fuzzy pink front, and hyperglow tangerine rear, and quick release glow in the dark mag extensions.......along with Speer Gold Dots for short barrel. After that, it won't matter what you had. The lawyer will also tell them, that you must have been out looking to use that firearm, because "normal" people just don't do things like that to a firearm, unless they are sure that they are going to use it. Even if everything goes your way, you'd better not be carrying your favorite firearm, or an expensive firearm, because after they take it away for evidence, you most likely will not see it for some time, and if you do, it will probably have cost you 4 times the cost of the firearm in legal fees to get it back. Believe it or not, many LE agencies STILL don't believe that you should be playing cop, so they make sure that even if you do get your firearm back, it's damaged, scratched, etc. I know this to be a fact, because it has happened in my neck of the woods on many occasions. We have had enough self defense cases here, to see how they are handled, and it's not pretty for the firearm owner, as far as retrieving your property.

[bugs]

I'm glad to see all these varied responses, especially the New York Trigger, a term I haven't heard since I took the Glock Armorers class. my point is you may be found justified by law,but relatives are going to claim wrongful injury/death. if they are not afraid of suing trained police officers who are found justified in their use of force, they will be sure to do their worst to (supposedly untrained gun nut) civilians, and trigger mods may be harder to defend because "all guns are evil".
LOL

NRA LIFER
IDPA BELEIVER

[CJB]

Ayoob also used to moan out about how you never want to shoot anyone with a HiPower, Combat Commander, etc. You wanted to choose at worse a Government Model, or better a Gold Cup Target... or a gun with a number for a name, as in the Model 13 or Model 10, but of course not the evil Model 29.

All this trip made him a living. Folks were wondrously amazed at his "insight".

Lawyer: So, because the deceased had a knife, you chose to shoot him with your Combat Commander?

Defendant: He threatened to slit my throat with the knife.

Lawyer: And you chose to purchase a Combat Commander... a COMBAT COMMANDER.... to be ready for just a simple robbery, didn't you?

Defendant: No, that's not it at all....

Lawyer: So, tell the jury why you chose an offensive pistol, a COMBAT COMMANDER as your weapon

Defendant: It was on sale.

[berettabone]

Personally, I never read Ayoob, for the reason's you mention. Goes the same for ammo............................

[delleetodd]

I have the Wolff striker spring and I like it a lot. Lightens the pull a noticeable amount but it is not too light by any means. It helped my accuracy quite a bit too. I carry a CM9 or a Glock 26 at all times and I wish I could install the Kahr trigger on the Glock. One tip that may help people out, do not squeeze or try to stage the Kahr trigger. You will do much better if you pull the the trigger back in one smooth motion. Push the gun with your right hand and pull back with your left hand but not so hard that you are shaking. Relax. Aim high lol and you will be shooting through the same hole.

[CJB]

Somewhat to Ayoob's defense, he did most of that preaching before the days of "shall issue" carry permits. The average Joe who read the gun magazines, and all the yearly thick digests, were put in the position of being made to feel like the little guy by the writers and editors. It sold magazines and digests. The reader was teleported to live vicariously in places, time periods, and situations only a fortunate few (it seems) were able to exist. Those writers were kind enough to relay the exploits of their superlative daily lives to the mere Everyman, the consumer of the gun rags. Hey Ayoob had to make a living somehow.

I am not sure if even the slim veracity of his statements of old would have much effect in these present times. Juries now consist of those who carry, know someone who carries, their mother carries, their baby sitter carries, etc. The gap between the fortunate few and the Everyman has narrowed considerably, and with that diminishing chasm has come new understanding and mores.

[berettabone]

All you have to do, is watch people vote....................I feel that you are really trusting, or really confident, or really foolish. I served on a jury not too long ago. I wouldn't have wanted to be in front of that jury of people for anything, especially for a shooting or gun related issue. You still can't fix stupid and or ignorant. They may know someone who carries, but it doesn't change their ignorant attitude towards firearms. This group of morons would have put you away in a Massachusetts minute. I think that you have to realize that even as much as shooting sports and ownership have come along, half of society still thinks that you shouldn't have anything to do with firearms period. Just listen to Swillary's supporters cheer when she speaks of ridding America of these nasty guns, and the NRA is her enemy. Want to be in front of those people on a jury? Sure hope you never have to get in front of a lawyer stacked jury. It happens every day, and not just concerning firearms. In all of the defensive shootings that have happened in this area, in all but one, the JUSTIFIED shooter was jailed, his firearms were taken, and he/she was treated like a third class citizen. After exoneration, their weapon was kept, sometimes for years, and the owner was forced to give it up, because the legal fees to try and get it returned got to be too much. The DA's like to play games, LE likes to play games, and you have to go purchase another firearm because it's cheaper than trying to get yours back. Any of this legal? What do you think. I worked with a guy who's son had some run in's with LE. They came to his house and took ALL of his firearms with a court order, even though none of this trouble was related to him. They were firearms with family history, and worth a few bucks. Handguns, hunting rifles, plinkers. It took him a lawyer, over 2 years, and 2 of them disappeared before they were returned. One was damaged. All because someone else didn't want him to have those firearms, even though he had a clean record. Juries now consist of those who don't carry, who don't know of anyone who carries, their mother hates friggen guns, the babysitter is deathly afraid of guns, etc. The gap is still there.

[SmokyT]

In the overall scheme of things, it seems that gun modification (unless it is obviously dangerous like putting a hair trigger on a defensive handgun) is becoming a relatively minor factor in a justifiable shooting cases today, compared to the political atmosphere of the jurisdiction where it has occurred, gender, race and age of the shooter and the deceased (i.e., true aggressor who posed a grave thread to the unfortunate shooter). It is more political than technical today....


To me, today's (justifiable) shooting incidents focus much more on political implications and ramifications of the incident. Therefore, social and demographic variables involved in a specific shooting case becomes much more salient than technical aspect of minor firearm modifications.... Of course, that doesn't mean I would totally ignore how gun modifications may negatively affect the perception of individual jurors. However, I would think the attorneys on both sides today are much more interested in the political atmosphere of the jurisdiction (e.g., pro-gun state vs. anti-gun state), race, gender and age of the defendant, deceased and jurors, as well as how those things can sway media opinions to support their side....