Taxes???

[O'Dell]

Well, I completed the yearly ritual of filling my federal and state income taxes today. I hate it!! Why don't we force the politicians to pass the FairTax and end this madness? It would save individuals millions and corporations billions every year, and of course, that money could be passed on to us in the form of lower prices. It would also prevent those same politicians from fiddling with the tax code to reward their friends and punish their enemies. Are you listening IRS?

BTW, I don't want to hear from you guys who don't have a state income tax!!

[Bawanna]

Everybody has state income tax, you either pay as you go whenever you buy anything or you pay at the end of the year like the federal rip off.

Arse, gas or grass, nobody rides for free.

[JohnR]

I'm all for the FairTax, but would like to know how we force 'em to pass it.

[O'Dell]

Everybody has state income tax, you either pay as you go whenever you buy anything or you pay at the end of the year like the federal rip off.

Arse, gas or grass, nobody rides for free.

The difference is that one's a sales or value added tax, and the other's an income tax.

The states that don't have an income tax are doing a much better job of bringing new industry to their state. Just look at Texas and Florida.

[O'Dell]

I'm all for the FairTax, but would like to know how we force 'em to pass it.

Don't reelect them if they don't.

[Longitude Zero]

I am all for a consumption tax somewhat like the Fair Tax. 23% is way too high though. Get rid of ALL other taxes and give the Feds no more that 15% and state/local/city no more than 5%.

[knkali]

its a double edged sword. I am for a consumption tax BUT there has to be spending cuts along with that. However, (here is the double edge part)by having to pay yearly or even quarterly taxes, it refreshes people's minds that our system is convoluted, expensive, punitive and over reaching. This will hopefully create change when it is time to vote. Consumption tax structures might help to lessen these feelings at the ballot box.

[O'Dell]

I am all for a consumption tax somewhat like the Fair Tax. 23% is way too high though. Get rid of ALL other taxes and give the Feds no more that 15% and state/local/city no more than 5%.

15% will not support the government. I wish it would but it won't. We have to take one thing at a time. 23% was designed to be revenue neutral - in other words it would generate the same revenue that now comes from the income, corporate, inheritance, and a bevy of other taxes that would be gone once the FairTax was instated. You have to understand that even with a 23% sales tax the prices of goods and services would rise very little if at all because of all the embedded taxes that would be eliminated.

The FairTax does not address state and local taxes. That's between you and your LOCAL officials. I think that puts the ball in your court.

As I said, I would love to also cut federal spending along with passing the FairTax, but just how much can we ever hope to accomplish at one time. I for one, would be happy to get the FairTax in the near future, and work on spending afterwards.

[downtownv]

Or we can join the takers and pay nothin'!

[Longitude Zero]

15% will not support the government. I wish it would but it won't.


As I said, I would love to also cut federal spending along with passing the FairTax, but just how much can we ever hope to accomplish at one time. I for one, would be happy to get the FairTax in the near future, and work on spending afterwards.


Actually it WILL. What you do is reduce every budget by 2% every year until budgets have been reduced 30% in real dollars and not projected increases. Your basis is to keep government at the level it is at now and that is ludicrous. For the majority of folks cuts MUST precede taxation. It is obvious we do not have a tax rate problem but SPENDING problem. Correcting the SPENDING must occur FIRST.

[tjm]

I'd love to be able to indicate on my tax form what I want my money to be spent on. For me, that would take some of the sting out of paying taxes.

[Longitude Zero]

I'd love to be able to indicate on my tax form what I want my money to be spent on. For me, that would take some of the sting out of paying taxes.


Me to. paying for Shanequas abortion would not be in the realm of possibility.

[O'Dell]

Actually it WILL. What you do is reduce every budget by 2% every year until budgets have been reduced 30% in real dollars and not projected increases. Your basis is to keep government at the level it is at now and that is ludicrous. For the majority of folks cuts MUST precede taxation. It is obvious we do not have a tax rate problem but SPENDING problem. Correcting the SPENDING must occur FIRST.

It's not my basis but simple reality. You've heard these idiots in congress just as I have. They are not about to reduce spending voluntarily, and we all know it. To them Spending and the control of spending is power, and they will not relinquish that power. If the majority of the people support cuts, I have yet to see any hint of it. You do and so do I, and there are a lot of us, but with half of the people or almost so benefiting from the 'out of control' spending, I fail to see a majority.

The FairTax will not reduce the revenue received from taxes, but will instead redistribute the sources and give us more control over our own tax rate. If we want to cut our taxes, we just spend less personally, or buy used rather than new. There is no tax collected on the purchase of used items under the FairTax. The FairTax also adds the element of visability to the tax structure. Obama and congress have raised taxes many times in the last five years and we have heard practically nothing about it. That would not be possible with the FairTax. Everything would be out in the open.

The current tax code spans over 80,000 pages. The FairTax 137, and a good part of that involves repealing the 16th amendment.

[b4uqzme]

its a double edged sword. I am for a consumption tax BUT there has to be spending cuts along with that. However, (here is the double edge part)by having to pay yearly or even quarterly taxes, it refreshes people's minds that our system is convoluted, expensive, punitive and over reaching. This will hopefully create change when it is time to vote. Consumption tax structures might help to lessen these feelings at the ballot box.

Yeah but 47% of America currently looks at tax day as a good thing. That's when they get their earned income tax credit and get a refund bigger than what they put in (if any). :rolleyes:

[muggsy]

In Ohio we have all three. Federal, State, and Sales. With all of the hidden taxes about 50% of what you earn goes to taxes. The government makes more on a gallon of gas that the oil companies make.

[O'Dell]

I opened an E-Mail tonight and found this message. It fits rather well in this discussion.


If you awoke one morning and found that the following were true, would you believe it?

Your standard of living was 5 to 14% better off.
You got your entire paycheck with nothing taken out for taxes or Social Security.
There were no taxes to pay on April 15.
All U.S. residents were paying a fair share of the cost for running the Federal Government.
The economy was very strong and there was a strong increase in "Made in America" jobs.
The national debt was slowing and steadily decreasing because of the strong economy.
As a business owner, your cost of doing business was about 15% lower than before.
And the U.S. Government was less powerful and less intrusive in your business or personal life.

I have just described a day in the life of America under the FairTax.

[tjm]

Im all for a flat tax (is that the same as a fair tax?) I just started a new job, which included a nice raise in pay. Since my wife works as well, this put us in a new tax bracket. Just barely. Most of my raise will now go to the tax man. What's the point of working hard and advancing your career if you end up not being able to enjoy the fruits of your labor?
I'm not anti-tax but I'm opposed to the idea that some people have to pay more than others, and that you have no say in where your tax dollars go.

[RainingAgain]

Im all for a flat tax (is that the same as a fair tax?) I just started a new job, which included a nice raise in pay. Since my wife works as well, this put us in a new tax bracket. Just barely. Most of my raise will now go to the tax man. What's the point of working hard and advancing your career if you end up not being able to enjoy the fruits of your labor?
I'm not anti-tax but I'm opposed to the idea that some people have to pay more than others, and that you have no say in where your tax dollars go.You'll feel better if you learn the meaning of a marginal tax rate as it relates to your situation.

[RRP]

I just started a new job, which included a nice raise in pay. Since my wife works as well, this put us in a new tax bracket. Just barely. Most of my raise will now go to the tax man.

Just barely? If possible, increase your 401k contributions to reduce your taxable income. Put your raise in your pocket, rather than give it away.

[harrydog]

Everybody has state income tax, you either pay as you go whenever you buy anything or you pay at the end of the year like the federal rip off.



There are a few states with no state income tax and no state sales tax including New Hampshire where I used to live. I miss that place....

[Longitude Zero]

Without dedicated non-party aligned folks in DC it will never happen unless we experience a major economic crisis. Spending must be reduced. If it is not the Fair Tax is an utter waste of time and just another way for the "G" to steal us blind. We do not have a too little tax problem we have a SPENDING PROBLEM. Everybody knows it but since politicians like to buy votes the REALITY is that spending cuts are the meat and potatoes. Tax reform is the gravy. Period!

[berettabone]

Without dedicated non-party aligned folks in DC it will never happen unless we experience a major economic crisis. Spending must be reduced. If it is not the Fair Tax is an utter waste of time and just another way for the "G" to steal us blind. We do not have a too little tax problem we have a SPENDING PROBLEM. Everybody knows it but since politicians like to buy votes the REALITY is that spending cuts are the meat and potatoes. Tax reform is the gravy. Period!
Can't argue with ya, but, we HAVE BEEN experiencing a major economic crisis :(

[ltxi]

Everybody has state income tax, you either pay as you go whenever you buy anything or you pay at the end of the year like the federal rip off.

Arse, gas or grass, nobody rides for free.

New Hampshire excepted. I liked living there back in the day.

[O'Dell]

[QUOTE=Longitude Zero;290427] If it is not the Fair Tax is an utter waste of time and just another way for the "G" to steal us blind.[/. QUOTE]

Obviously we have a spending problem, the fact of which you keep reminding us. I certainly agree. However the FairTax, is far from a waste of time. In fact it's the best way available to keep the "G" from robbing us blind.

Good luck with getting the politician to stop spending! Ever hear of Don Quixote?

[chrish]

I'm gonna have to agree w/ both sides on this. I'm a big proponent of a flat tax, 15% federal, no exemptions, no deductions, no credits. 15% on anything and everything above some 'poverty level'. No Medicare, No SS. If they can't run on that, then screw 'em, they need to work on cutting spending (as LZ mentioned). It's a spending problem, always has been, and the only answer they ever have is to rob peter to pay paul or raise taxes. Hell, even the cuts are just cuts in the budgeted increase. The federal government has NEVER, NEVER reduced spending...NEVER. Not in our time anyway. Even when Clinton claimed to have balanced the budget, it was fuzzy math and a political shell game. The years that they claimed that, the debt increased (with the interest calculation removed).


But I'd go for the FairTax as well, makes perfect sense.


But, the 'other side' I'm gonna agree with is 'why bother' until they cut spending. Go with a flat tax, go with a fair tax...doesn't matter. They'll just increase the % every time they need more money and we'll be at a 30%, 40% consumption tax before you know it.


In the end, unless you put a % into a Constitutional amendment, I fear its a lost cause.

[TheTman]

I'd like to see everybody NOT file taxes, for a selected year. And see what the IRS does, they can't put everyone in jail, or confiscate everyone's property. They would probably make examples of a few. Probably the leaders that called for it, and those that publicized it.
Otherwise, I support some type of alternative tax method, not sure which. But one that doesn't require thousands of pages of rules and regulations. Spending is WAY out of control, starting with the President and his lavish vacations, working down through various agencies have expensive meetings in 4 star hotels, and then asking veterans, and those on Social Security, to tighten their belts, while they spend money in the most foolish ways. Notice they never mention welfare or food stamps.
If any federal employee deserves better treatment than a veteran, I can't think of him. Particularly those that saw combat, and those that came home with pieces missing.

[knkali]

the devil is in the details. Even a consumption tax policy would have a lot of details to sort out. Seems easy until it is put to the test.

[O'Dell]

But I'd go for the FairTax as well, makes perfect sense.


But, the 'other side' I'm gonna agree with is 'why bother' until they cut spending. Go with a flat tax, go with a fair tax...doesn't matter. They'll just increase the % every time they need more money and we'll be at a 30%, 40% consumption tax before you know it.



Don't forget we tried a version of the flat tax in 1986 under Reagan, and you can certainly see how that slowed spending -NOT! Plus a flat tax leaves the IRS in place and allows all sorts of fiddling the codes just like we have now.

The FairTax is right out there in the open and is very simple so the only way to raise taxes is to raise the %. That would be readily apparent to everyone so there would be no way to sneak an increase past us as is the case today or with a flat tax. Plus the FairTax by removing the Corporate tax would bring hundreds or thousands of companies from all over the world into the US not to mention billions of dollars. There would be no reason for American companies to keep $'s overseas anymore. Currently, those $'s are about 17 trillion. A poll was conducted several years ago where the 100 largest global companies were ask, "What would you do if the US eliminated corporate taxes by passing the FairTax". 80% said that their next factory or distribution center would be in the US, and the other 20% said that they would move here lock, stock and barrel. One Harvard economist said that the economy would grow so fast that you would have to hide under your bed to avoid a job.

[chrish]

Don't forget we tried a version of the flat tax in 1986 under Reagan, and you can certainly see how that slowed spending -NOT! Plus a flat tax leaves the IRS in place and allows all sorts of fiddling the codes just like we have now.

The FairTax is right out there in the open and is very simple so the only way to raise taxes is to raise the %. That would be readily apparent to everyone so there would be no way to sneak an increase past us as is the case today or with a flat tax.

Yea, but that's just it. That (Reagan) wasn't a flat tax, it was still a progressive tax system in reality. They tinkered and side-stepped it on top of that. That's why I said, a FLAT tax, 15%...no circumventing with deductions, credits, whatever. You make $100,000 in income in a year, with income clearly defined by the 1 page tax code that a true flat % tax needs, then you pay $15,000.

In either case though, fair or flat, they'll just hike the % when they need it. There is no difference either way there. The FairTax concept is pretty straightforward, but even it allows for poverty level, credit back when you file...so still gives the gov't the ability to tinker w/ it.

As stated above, the devil is in the details...regardless of which tax plan is adopted. It's all evil. Just like w/ the candidates we have to vote for, it's all the lesser of the evils.

[muggsy]

Without dedicated non-party aligned folks in DC it will never happen unless we experience a major economic crisis. Spending must be reduced. If it is not the Fair Tax is an utter waste of time and just another way for the "G" to steal us blind. We do not have a too little tax problem we have a SPENDING PROBLEM. Everybody knows it but since politicians like to buy votes the REALITY is that spending cuts are the meat and potatoes. Tax reform is the gravy. Period!

The independents have never won a damn thing, but their independence has cost us plenty. You only have to look to the last two elections to see that I'm correct. The so called "independents" put Obama into office, twice.

[muggsy]

I'm gonna have to agree w/ both sides on this. I'm a big proponent of a flat tax, 15% federal, no exemptions, no deductions, no credits. 15% on anything and everything above some 'poverty level'. No Medicare, No SS. If they can't run on that, then screw 'em, they need to work on cutting spending (as LZ mentioned). It's a spending problem, always has been, and the only answer they ever have is to rob peter to pay paul or raise taxes. Hell, even the cuts are just cuts in the budgeted increase. The federal government has NEVER, NEVER reduced spending...NEVER. Not in our time anyway. Even when Clinton claimed to have balanced the budget, it was fuzzy math and a political shell game. The years that they claimed that, the debt increased (with the interest calculation removed).


But I'd go for the FairTax as well, makes perfect sense.


But, the 'other side' I'm gonna agree with is 'why bother' until they cut spending. Go with a flat tax, go with a fair tax...doesn't matter. They'll just increase the % every time they need more money and we'll be at a 30%, 40% consumption tax before you know it.


In the end, unless you put a % into a Constitutional amendment, I fear its a lost cause.

Chrish, You've simply got to stop listening to Rush Limbaugh. :)

[muggsy]

I'd like to see everybody NOT file taxes, for a selected year. And see what the IRS does, they can't put everyone in jail, or confiscate everyone's property. They would probably make examples of a few. Probably the leaders that called for it, and those that publicized it.
Otherwise, I support some type of alternative tax method, not sure which. But one that doesn't require thousands of pages of rules and regulations. Spending is WAY out of control, starting with the President and his lavish vacations, working down through various agencies have expensive meetings in 4 star hotels, and then asking veterans, and those on Social Security, to tighten their belts, while they spend money in the most foolish ways. Notice they never mention welfare or food stamps.
If any federal employee deserves better treatment than a veteran, I can't think of him. Particularly those that saw combat, and those that came home with pieces missing.

Hell, Tman, I haven't filed my taxes in years. I figured three hots and a cot isn't so bad. That's what I had in the Navy. Plus, federal prisoners have color TV and great exercise equipment. For sex there's always Bubba. I think that you should join me in not filing your taxes. (The preceding was an unpaid political announcement. I am not responsible for anyone stupid enough to take my advice.) :)

[chrish]

Chrish, You've simply got to stop listening to Rush Limbaugh. :)



While it's entirely possible I sound like him...I can count the number of times I've listened to him on both hands (and I have all my fingers). Yes, that's a slight bit of an exaggeration, but not too far off reality.


It's just a fact...pull up the numbers. I welcome anyone to show me where the national debt has ever decreased (since sometime in the 40s). And you can back out the interest too, just not gonna happen. If there was REALLY ever a surplus, meaning they spent LESS than the budget, then the debt would have gone down. Simple math.

[Longitude Zero]

It's just a fact...pull up the numbers. I welcome anyone to show me where the national debt has ever decreased (since sometime in the 40s). And you can back out the interest too, just not gonna happen. If there was REALLY ever a surplus, meaning they spent LESS than the budget, then the debt would have gone down. Simple math.


Absolute undeniable truth.

[muggsy]

I try to listen to Rush on a daily basis. I've been told that I'm three giant steps to the right of him. He has a great sense of humor and he has the liberals pegged. I love it when he sits in the Attila the Hun chair and speaks to me through the golden EIB microphone. I've never called him, but I've channeled him a few times. My kinda guy.

[mr surveyor]

I try to listen to Rush on a daily basis. I've been told that I'm three giant steps to the right of him. He has a great sense of humor and he has the liberals pegged. I love it when he sits in the Attila the Hun chair and speaks to me through the golden EIB microphone. I've never called him, but I've channeled him a few times. My kinda guy.


ditto .... listener since December 1989:D

[chrish]

Hannity is my least favorite. Then Rush. I'm a Mark Levin and Andrew Wilcow guy. Been listening to Wilcow since he started on Sirius. Everybody else kinda falls in the middle with me. But I'm definitely right of Rush. Or more libertarian anyway. Not Paulish or druggie libertarian, but libertarian.