Can you diagnose a 1911 CBOB safety issue? SOLD

[RainingAgain]

I have a Dan Wesson Classic CBOB 1911. I had it inspected by a well regarded gunsmith. All that was needed was a new recoil spring. I bought it used with 800 rounds thru it. I have now shot another 450-500.

Whenever I clean a gun, I do function and safety checks before I put it in the safe. I seem to be doing something wrong because I find my CBOB will drop the hammer when I disengage the safety. This happens twice, possiby three times, but no more. Basically, after reassembly, I rack the slide several times, I then put on the thumb safety and make sure the trigger won't pull. When I release the safety, the hammer drops. I assume that would result in a BANG. I try again, and same problem occurs. It then clears up spontaneously. This is a series 70 w/o a drop saftey...if that matters.

I explained it to the smith who found no defective parts.


Is there some way to improperly reassemble a 1911 and cause a temporary problem? I never had this with my SIG RCS 1911.

Help

[Bawanna]

Stick around for GB Greg on this, he's wicked smart.

My first thought is the safety sear is worn, chipped or just not properly fitted. If one of the tangs on the main spring isn't properly located this can cause issues also but it wouldn't be sporadic.
Also doubtful that you had that main spring housing off so unless the last person who had it off did something wrong that shouldn't have changed.

I don't understand why it would do it just once or twice and then be ok. Consider me pondering.

Again, some of the smart fellas will be along directly and probably have more solid answers for ya.

I have a Cbob myself, and just love it to pieces, carry it every day. I would not like to see this happen.

[getsome]

I just recently read in a gun magazine an article very much like this on how to safety check a 1911 and see what the problem was if it did something that it shouldn't and how to check it to see if a pistol had been modified by a gunsmith...See if this helps:

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/1911safetyck.shtml

[RainingAgain]

I just recently read in a gun magazine an article very much like this on how to safety check a 1911 and see what the problem was if it did something that it shouldn't and how to check it to see if a pistol had been modified by a gunsmith...See if this helps:

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/1911safetyck.shtml

I'll try this in a bit and report.

[RainingAgain]

I'll try this in a bit and report.

It failed the disconnector test. There is also interesting feedback on SigForum.

This CBOB is going on a roadtrip to the mothership. It isn't safe

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=674608412&f=430601935&m=1690016743&r=2840036743#2840036743

Thanks guys

[getsome]

I hope it helps you...I don't know squat about digging into the innards of a 1911 but our mods Bawanna and Greg GB do and are the go to guys for that kind of thing....The article was interesting in that it gives you a baseline to check the thumb and grip safety on a used 1911 pistol which may have been modified by a gunsmith or worst case a goobersmith....

In your case you stated it was a used gun so it may have been worked on before you got it and since it's such a nice pistol it's worth having it repaired properly by an expert because having the hammer drop when you take it off the thumb safety is definitely a bad situation and needs to be corrected before it's fired again....

Good to hear you are sending her back to mamma to be fixed right...Those are beautiful pistols alright and I'm sure they will get it corrected for you...Good luck!!!!

[Bawanna]

Definitely worth getting it fixed right. I'd love to have another one just in case by some miracle I ever wear this one out. I don't think it will ever happen but I love it.

There's lots of pro 1911 shops now days, even if the mother ship lets you down which I don't think they will since this is a real safety issue I'd try elsewhere if they fail. It's just parts tuning and fitting but very important.

[AIRret]

We find this very interesting and are glad this was posted.
My Hubby has two Dan Wesson 1911's and is always interested in any info concerning them!!! Especially with respect to SAFETY.

I was just informed that he has 4 Dan Wessons; Vbob, eco, cco, and the specialist…………….
Holy Sh---!
I need to buy more guns!

[jeepster09]

My Smith bob tail has become my favorite gun!

[CJB]

Well, I do know squat and then some about the 1911 innards.

They key to you problem's understanding is pulling trigger with the safety applied. What's going on is you're dislodging the sear from the hammer notches and then the hammer wants to fall, but the safety is blocking it from doing so. When you release the safety, the hammer falls.

The sear nose may still be partially engaged on the hammer notches.... but not enough.

Without inspection its hard to tell the exact cause for what you're seeing.

Generally, new thumb safeties are made oversize, and need to be fit to individual hammer/sear relationships. Alter that relationship, or change parts, and the safety may no longer function correctly.

You can check, and you will notice a small amoutn of sear, or hammer movement when you pull the trigger with the safety applied. That is not supposed to happen!

Possible fixes are a new safety, and possibly a new hammer and sear. If the hammer hooks have been reduced in depth to create a less creepy trigger pull... its new hammer time. If the angle of the hooks has been altered (bad idea!) new hammer time. If the sear nose is set with a lot of fall away... new sear time. The fall away is a secondary angle that makes the sear jump out of the way of the falling hammer, and also serves to reduce engagement by limiting the contact of the primary engaging surfaces.

I suspect you'll need all three parts.

For a sear, I'd not get ANY other sear, except the EGW "hard sear". These are tough hombres and usually need absolutely zero adjustment when installing. There are a number of good hammers out there, in various styles, and I tend to use stainless hammers. Wilson makes ok good hammers. I've gotten some cheapies from Brownells that are just fantastic, and required no extra fitting for a (maybe longish) absolute smooth pull.

Safety..... Wilson makes them with enough meat to properly adjust.

IMPORTANT NOTE - if you're tuning a 1911 trigger, you adjust everything else first, and when you're finally satisfied, then you fit the thumb safety. Its dead last, because if you change the others, you're gonna probably have to refit the thumb safety anyway.

And finally - get a new gunsmith, yours doesn't know doodly squat about a 1911.

[gb6491]

I just recently read in a gun magazine an article very much like this on how to safety check a 1911 and see what the problem was if it did something that it shouldn't and how to check it to see if a pistol had been modified by a gunsmith...See if this helps:

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/1911safetyck.shtml


I'll try this in a bit and report.


It failed the disconnector test. There is also interesting feedback on SigForum.

This CBOB is going on a roadtrip to the mothership. It isn't safe

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=674608412&f=430601935&m=1690016743&r=2840036743#2840036743

Thanks guys
RainAgain,
You've gotten some good advice from the members above and your decision to send it in for repair cannot be faulted.

I do find it interesting that you said the pistol failed the "disconnector test", but you made no mention of it failing any of the other tests on the C&S page. Was this the case, no other failures? How did it fail the disconnector test? (possibly didn't reset?)
You know, I'd be tempted to check that the sear spring is installed correctly (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/JesusChrist1000/media/6142233619_e0ff923fc5_z_zpsb33c4518.jpg.html). I might even replace it while I was at it (or at least put more tension on the left and center legs {1 and 2 in this photo (http://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=4431669&postcount=4)}).

Regards,
Greg

[RainingAgain]

RainAgain,
You've gotten some good advice from the members above and your decision to send it in for repair cannot be faulted.

I do find it interesting that you said the pistol failed the "disconnector test", but you made no mention of it failing any of the other tests on the C&S page. Was this the case, no other failures? How did it fail the disconnector test? (possibly didn't reset?)
You know, I'd be tempted to check that the sear spring is installed correctly (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/JesusChrist1000/media/6142233619_e0ff923fc5_z_zpsb33c4518.jpg.html). I might even replace it while I was at it (or at least put more tension on the left and center legs {1 and 2 in this photo (http://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=4431669&postcount=4)}).

Regards,
Greg

As I understood (or missunderstood) the disconnector test, I should not have been able to push back the slide more than 1/4 inch. I was able to fully rack it back.

I am reluctant for this to be my very first trip inside a 1911. I'm ok with minor stuff in a Glock but that's my limit.

Thank you for your help...everyone.

[RainingAgain]

We find this very interesting and are glad this was posted.
My Hubby has two Dan Wesson 1911's and is always interested in any info concerning them!!! Especially with respect to SAFETY.

I was just informed that he has 4 Dan Wessons; Vbob, eco, cco, and the specialist…………….
Holy Sh---!
I need to buy more guns!I've been lusting after the ECO, maybe I can talk the LGS into an "as is" trade in. He had one at full MSRP in his case a few weeks ago, could be gone. Not sure what my CBOB is worth as is

[Bawanna]

The Cbob is quite sought after and a little gold mine in your hand. I'd not let the LGS beat you up much at all on it. They are pretty hard to find and the ones out there the owners aren't very willing to give em up.

My timing was a little off and I had to pay large for mine, used to be able to get them all day long for 850 or so. When the Vbob came out the Cbob nearly doubled over night.

I'm sure if you LGS is in the loop they would be thrilled to get their hands on it.

[RainingAgain]

I am able to duplicate my isssue repeatedly now.

If I rack the slide to fully cock the gun, release the slide slowly, set the safety and 'test" it by squeezing like a gorilla, after that step releasing the slide drops the hammer. If I don't use the gorilla squeeze and leave the trigger alone, no problem. Explains why it safely shot at the range. Safely in this case being loosely used. No plans to load or fire it again.

I tried the disconnectortest again...going it correctly...and she passed. My hearing may not be good enough to truly do the first two tests. Sorry.

[Bawanna]

I'm with ya there boo boo, my hearing is awful.

I really think that Cbob just needs to get in the hands of a good 1911 smith. Get those parts married together properly, the sear spring suggestion by GB is sound, I butchered the terminology as usual but was thinking the right thing.

I'm not comfy checking the fit on those pieces myself. I've been inside many, and comfy to take them down and clean and check and such but to order a new part and confirm that it's fit properly, I leave that to the pros.

[RainingAgain]

I'm with ya there boo boo, my hearing is awful.

I really think that Cbob just needs to get in the hands of a good 1911 smith. Get those parts married together properly, the sear spring suggestion by GB is sound, I butchered the terminology as usual but was thinking the right thing.

I'm not comfy checking the fit on those pieces myself. I've been inside many, and comfy to take them down and clean and check and such but to order a new part and confirm that it's fit properly, I leave that to the pros.The word "fitted" scares me. I don't even always wear matched socks...not since I retired.

Bruce Gray of Gray Guns has offered to fix it for me if I can't get it done locally or I don't sell it to get the ECO. Hope to decide tomorrow.

[CJB]

I am able to duplicate my isssue repeatedly now.

If I rack the slide to fully cock the gun, release the slide slowly, set the safety and 'test" it by squeezing like a gorilla, after that step releasing the slide drops the hammer. If I don't use the gorilla squeeze and leave the trigger alone, no problem. Explains why it safely shot at the range. Safely in this case being loosely used. No plans to load or fire it again.

I tried the disconnectortest again...going it correctly...and she passed. My hearing may not be good enough to truly do the first two tests. Sorry.

And if you go re-read my post.... it explains the causes and fixes.

[CJB]

Should also add, you need someone who knows what a sear nose should look like, and how to test for proper engagement.

Sears are funny critters in 1911's, and longer the better. You start to reshape 'em and they get short and you end up with a problem trigger, or a rough trigger. When the sear is long, the hammer is closer to its TDC crank postition in relation to the hammer struts forces, and you get a very nice trigger that will last... Once you get away from that sweet spot... the strut is pushing on the hammer harder and you get higher engagement forces and ... its not the best.

[RainingAgain]

And if you go re-read my post.... it explains the causes and fixes.Being unfamiliar with 1911 guts had me reading most posts at least twice.

Thank you.

I will sell it tomorrow or be sending it to Bruce Gray at Gray Guns. He is well known for custom work and said to be a jedi master of all things gun.

[CJB]

You don't need to sell it.... jeeze, this is a simple, easy, and not too expensive fix for a real smithy.

It needs to be detail stripped, have the sear inspected visually, and have the hammer hooks measured.

Engangement needs to be checked.

At that point, the smithy should know what you need - safety, sear, hammer or two out of three, or all three.

This should run you for a basic fit , nothing fancy, the smith's base rate service, and should take him NO MORE than an hour to do. Plus parts. Again, the EGW sear is probably the best on the market, bar none. IF you have a good sear, hammer selection is less important.

In fact you could get an EGW sear and a Wilson hammer, have a good trigger pull, and just have the smithy fit a new thumb safety for you.

I suspect your engagement is very shallow, and there is a lot of cast away... it will only need a minute amount of sear rotation to get it to drop... amateur trigger job... just correct it, its no big deal.

[knkali]

You don't need to sell it.... jeeze, this is a simple, easy, and not too expensive fix for a real smithy.

It needs to be detail stripped, have the sear inspected visually, and have the hammer hooks measured.

Engangement needs to be checked.

At that point, the smithy should know what you need - safety, sear, hammer or two out of three, or all three.

This should run you for a basic fit , nothing fancy, the smith's base rate service, and should take him NO MORE than an hour to do. Plus parts. Again, the EGW sear is probably the best on the market, bar none. IF you have a good sear, hammer selection is less important.

In fact you could get an EGW sear and a Wilson hammer, have a good trigger pull, and just have the smithy fit a new thumb safety for you.

I suspect your engagement is very shallow, and there is a lot of cast away... it will only need a minute amount of sear rotation to get it to drop... amateur trigger job... just correct it, its no big deal.


I vote sear and hammer but I am a jackhole so.....

[CJB]

More or less my feeling. But... you've got a really good chance that once a new hammer and sear are installed, you may need a new safety too. Or, happy cirucmstance, the exact geometery of things makes it such that you can actually refit the old safety. Can't tell until you get the hammer and sear set the way you like 'em.

Generally... I prefer only a tiny amount of fall away angle, more like barely breaking the edge of the sear nose a little. This allows pretty much full engagement, protects the sear's edge too - since no hammer is perfectly square at the inside of the hooks. There's always a slight radius. Just breaking the edge allows some relief from that radius being a problem.

Some folks though... they run maybe 30 percent of the engagement missing, as a fall away angle. I don't like this as it makes for a rather iffy set of re-engagement upon firing. If you're shooting bullseye, and have a slide that has no play, and locks up tight at its end, and are shooting barely cyclable loads pushed by WW231.... you can get away with that. The problem is when folks want the trigger of a bullseye gun on their daily shooter that they go out and shoot all sorts of ammo with. Not good. You always have to consider the big picture.

The fact that the sear is creeping out from under the hammer hoods when the safety is applied, then the hammer is falling when the safety is disengaged.... is nearly proof positive of this. Even if the sear moves just a little with the safety engaged, you should still retain the hammer in a cocked position upon disengagement. There should be enough contact of sear to hammer to ensure that. In this case.... there isn't.

[knkali]

wow CJB.....just wow. Please bobtail my 1911 for me...please

[CJB]

Good lord no. My only mod is to run a no tail....no beaver and not even gi standard

[Bawanna]

wow CJB.....just wow. Please bobtail my 1911 for me...please

I'll do it. All it takes is some cajones and a hack saw right? How tough can it be.

CJB can do the sear/hammer/safety marriage nuptials. I get the concept but I don't have the hands on. I don't work on brakes or triggers.

Actually I prefer wood.

I already got a hack saw.

[Bawanna]

Actually I did one. The hack saw really worked.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n538/hopke5/DSCN2142.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/hopke5/media/DSCN2142.jpg.html)

[CJB]

Nice job.

I've put on countless beavertails... not one with a guide, just take off whats needed and slowly, methodically, carefully.... take it down to just a gnats ass between the frame and the safety. I hate doing that. Two reasons - the pressure of screwing up. And the dust. I never once messed one up (knock wood), but then again, I was undercharging and over working, and getting them done not in an hours time, but more like two and a half. The metal dust just kills my throat. I've tried every sort of mask there is, and it still kills it. I'd do a beavertail on Friday evening, and be out of it all day Saturday with a sore throat and migrane.

Still... the bobtails look nice, not sure how they handle. And my own... just plain jane... straight smooth mainspring houses - dead smooth is how I like 'em. And no protrusion at all on the grip safety. It aint there, it can't bite you.

Actually.... I do leave just a bare little lip on the upper edge, then curve it back. This facilitates decocking with one hand, as can be done with the GI grip safety, and is in the GI manual of arms.

[Bawanna]

Some woods dust do the same to me. Gets a lot of people. Any wood with red in it is not good for ya. I usually can't stand a mask though.

Metal never seemed to bother me but I don't mess with much metal.

[CJB]

Red oak...yup. But cypress used to just do me in too.

[RainingAgain]

I couldn't help it. I tried. It wasn't financially smart...but...I sold the CBOB (gave it away?) because I wanted the ECO so bad and I needed to free up some cash. That ECO trigger feels light but smoother than the CBOB. A bit crisper break...the proverbial glass rod. The LGS hadn't seen any ECOs in two years. I took the 9mm. My only remaining 45ACP is a Glock 36. That's a keeper.

The ECO came with Tijicon NS, a style I hadn't seen before. A small less bright single dot on the rear and a single slightly larger and brighter dot on the front. Not read the manual yet but I assume you just stackem. I love the G10 thin grips and the black Duty Finish looks durable.

I'll do a brief range impressions report as soon as I shoot her.

[Alfonse]

Next time you want to give a pistol away, and need fast cash, keep my PM handy! Enjoy the ECO.

[RainingAgain]

Next time you want to give a pistol away, and need fast cash, keep my PM handy! Enjoy the ECO.

Looks like I got a HUGE BONUS.

I've been trying to get my girl friend to shoot. She's always been afraid to touch a gun (incl an empty one). She wanted to feel the G10 grips, then she dry fired it and liked it. Said its heavier than I thought. I said it tames recoil and is only a 9mm.

She has agreed to come and shot it with me. Will wonders never cease.

[kerby9mm]

I did something similar to what you did. I had a Kimber Eclipse Custom 2 although not defective it was too large & heavy for carry to me. I sold it & got an EMP9 & have been very happy I did but also like you took a loss. Sometimes even though not smart money wise its worth it if you are happy with what you end up with.

[RainingAgain]

I did something similar to what you did. I had a Kimber Eclipse Custom 2 although not defective it was too large & heavy for carry to me. I sold it & got an EMP9 & have been very happy I did but also like you took a loss. Sometimes even though not smart money wise its worth it if you are happy with what you end up with.I shot my friend's new EMP last week. Nice gun but I had some serious trouble with the sights. I'd need something different. He's a little younger and shoots it very accurately.

[kerby9mm]

With my vision I have trouble with any sights at an indoor range. About three years ago I bought some 3.00 non prescription magnifier reading glasses. What a great difference it made in my vision at the range. Let's say I can see better than clearly now. Hope your ECO proves out to be a good choice for you. Maybe you can post pics & your range report.

[RainingAgain]

So far so good. The manual says to shoot 50 rounds per session, clean & lube, then repeat out to 500 rounds. At that point she's broken-in. FMJ only until then.

I shot 50-54 rounds of WWB 115 gr. I had no feeding or extraction issues, however I had two failures to go into battery. Once as I was shooting, once when I racked it myself. The gun is obviously tightly fitted between frame and slide.

Accuracy is outstanding. I like the sights. I tended not to see the rear at all and just covered my target with the front dot.

Disassembly requires a tool. They didn't supply one ($1500 and too cheap?). One is easily made from a paperclip. We ran through the process once at the LGS and I viewed a video twice. Pretty simple but I wish a tool wasn't needed. I'll be making a plastic covered one so I don't risk marring the finish.

Any suggestions on bullet weight during the break-in? I have American Eagle in 124 I can use. I never shoot or buy 147 and plan to stick to that plan. I do like Critical Duty 135 for carry but also use Federal HST 124.

[kerby9mm]

Good to hear that your new gun is running good. As far as take down my EMP came with a tool but I don't need it. I assume your ECO has a RSA that stays together like mine. You might be able to experiment as I did by aligning the large spring with the longest part of the curve up so when you compress the RSA the shorter end will be facing the barrel to give you room to lift up to get it over the barrel link.

[RainingAgain]

Good to hear that your new gun is running good. As far as take down my EMP came with a tool but I don't need it. I assume your ECO has a RSA that stays together like mine. You might be able to experiment as I did by aligning the large spring with the longest part of the curve up so when you compress the RSA the shorter end will be facing the barrel to give you room to lift up to get it over the barrel link.

The RSA doesn't stay together. The steel guide rod has a small hole that is used to compress the unit for ease of disassembly. Actually, more than "ease". It may not bepossible to field strip it without. Thank God for paperclips and pliers. I'm told, Kimber uses a similar tool with bull barells.
They were going to give me one but couldn't find any extras.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Dan+Wesson+ECO+9+mm+review&FORM=VIRE5#view=detail&mid=50EED807EF186E6BD94F50EED807EF186E6BD94F

[kerby9mm]

I used my tool that clamped the guide rod at first but found out that I did not need it. My question is how is the recoil spring replaced when needed. It would then not be “started” for lack of a better word with being compressed & paperclipped or held by the tool. By the way that is how I put my slide stop in is by pressing with my palm from the top after lining up everything to prevent the idiot scratch.

[RainingAgain]

I used my tool that clamped the guide rod at first but found out that I did not need it. My question is how is the recoil spring replaced when needed. It would then not be “started” for lack of a better word with being compressed & paperclipped or held by the tool. By the way that is how I put my slide stop in is by pressing with my palm from the top after lining up everything to prevent the idiot scratch.

I found it easy to remove the the single spring. Replacing it would take two seconds or less. Just remove the paperclip, Its not a real strong spring in the 9 mm