Sage Advice

[Longitude Zero]

A recent TTAG thread dealt with the immediate aftermath of a defensive gun use. The responses ran the gamut from full cooperation with the police to saying nothing at all. As a 20-year law enforcement veteran I have investigated several DGU cases. In each case the shooter was cleared of any wrongdoing. Each was ruled as self defense and a lawful use of force. I live and work in Georgia, a pro gun state, and unfortunately that does make a difference . . .


In Georgia when a person claims lawful use of a firearm, we investigate to determine if the facts support that claim. We process the scene, take witness statements and interview the shooter and the person who was shot, if possible. Notice I didn’t use the word victim. In a DGU the shooter is the victim.


If the facts indicate a defensive gun use, we contact the District Attorney and give the case facts to them. If the agree that a defensive use has occurred, they will normally tell the shooter to come in for an in-depth interview at a later date, with an attorney if they wish.


This is important…if the facts indicate a lawful gun use, NO crime has been committed and NO probable cause to arrest exists. For this to occur the shooter has to provide certain facts to the police.


The basics:


What the offender (the one who was shot ) did: “The man came to my door with a gun. He kicked my door in.”
What you (the shooter) did: “I feared for my life. I had no choice. I fired my gun and the man stopped attacking me.”
What evidence exists: Your gun, his gun, your door.
Who witnessed these events, if anyone

Be sure that the officer or investigator knows that you fired in self-defense. After those questions are answered politely, tell the investigator that you will give a full statement after you speak to your attorney (who you should have called right after 911). This will be a normal response to most cops. We expect it.


What happens if you say nothing at all? What if you demand a lawyer right from the start?


Presumably you called 911. You told 911 that someone was shot. You may have told 911 what the bad guy was doing. You may have told 911 that you shot him. Guess what? All of that is admissible in court. If you don’t answer some basic questions or give some basic information, you are part of a homicide investigation, not a defensive gun use.


You will likely be arrested and charged with murder. You won’t have a bond. You will get a lawyer at some point. Your lawyer now has to convince the District Attorney — who in turn has to convince a judge — to set a bond. The DA and the judge will likely ask why the suspect didn’t tell the story to the police. They may or may not believe you. Your self defense claim just became a trail defense.


This is the most important part: to get out of jail you will have to tell the District Attorney your story. The same story you wouldn’t tell the police because they could “hold it against you in court of law.” And the district attorney is the person who “holds it” against you.


The point is: if you use a firearm in self defense, the burden of proof is on you. The state simply has to prove you shot somebody. You have to show it was lawful self defense. That is a whole lot easier if the cops investigate with that in mind. It’s then a whole lot easier to prevent charges being filed than to fight the charges later.


Keep it simple. Tell the cops the basics. Bad guy did this…I feared for my life…I shot him to stop his attack. It was self defense…there is his gun…here is my gun….. Mrs. Jones across the street saw the whole thing…I will give a full statement after I consult my attorney.


As you know, there are pro-gun state and there are anti-gun states. There are good cops and bad cops. Keep it simple and you should be OK.


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/robert-farago/aftermath-of-a-defensive-gun-use-a-law-enforcement-perspective/


Clear concise and sage advice. Those that advocate saying nothing are ignorant in the extreme and whose advice should be shunned as damaging and NOT helpful.

[downtownv]

LZ you are a logical and reasonable LEO. Thank you for your service. Sadly not all LEO's think this way and have the defending shooter as guilty and treated that way. Every organization i belong to says "Say Nothing to the Policeman, EVER, without an Attorney present.
I have LEO's as family members and they say trust no other cop, but them.

[b4uqzme]

LZ - thanks for the sage advice. Just to add one more point of my own. It's probably best to have a conversation with an attorney BEFORE you ever find yourself in this position. And follow his advice. I'm hoping he agrees with you. What you say makes sense but I have to take care of myself and my family so I'd better be real careful.

Thanks for the explanation.

[TheTman]

Great post LZ, thanks very much for posting. I hope none of us ever need to put this advice to the test, but it is good to know.

[Longitude Zero]

LZ you are a logical and reasonable LEO. Thank you for your service. Sadly not all LEO's think this way and have the defending shooter as guilty and treated that way. Every organization i belong to says "Say Nothing to the Policeman, EVER, without an Attorney present.
I have LEO's as family members and they say trust no other cop, but them.


It is geographically based. However for those who make the mistake of absolute silence do not waste mine and others time complaining that you are arrested, incarcerated and have to spend all your lawyer money to a bondsman. Silence=Arrest=Incarceration=Burden of Proof Reversal. Each can do what they want but if you remain silent after consulting with an attorney and are arrested it is YOUR fault and you cannot blame anyone but yourself. You would need to also get another attorney as the one who advised you is ignorant.


If you CCW and you do not have an attorneys card you can call instantly 24/7 then you are a negligent CCW holder. Agreedb4uqzme.

[AIRret]

Thanks Longitude!
The info you just shared seems to be consistent with Masaad Ayob's advice.

I wonder if there are any other LEO's on this forum who would like to add their perspective from their States.

[TheTman]

LZ, This is the front and back of a card the USCCA (United States Concealed Carry Assoc.) gave me when I joined. The front is used to write your attorney's name, and gives some basic instructions, and you are supposed to give the card to the officer and have him read the back, if he will do so. What do you think about this? Are these any good, other than to have your attorney's name and phone handy? Do you think an officer would read the card and pay any attention to it, or just hand it back to you? I imagine your answer will be it depends on the Officer and situation.
I know I would be a lot more comfortable answering certain questions with an attorney there to advise me. Even if I had to spend a night in jail. That sure beats a prison sentence over saying the wrong thing.

http://kartalk.pccomps.com/USCCA_Card_front.jpg


http://kartalk.pccomps.com/USCCA_Card_back.jpg

[Bawanna]

Just a tiny bit of common sense and the world could be free of attorneys. You won't find no attorney phone number in my wallet.

Speak the truth, answer questions carefully without over doing. Be honest, be polite, and don't try to BS the officer. Don't mess with or try to hide evidence for or against you.

If you are in the right justice will prevail. If your in the wrong justice will prevail.

[RevRay]

Colonel, LZ did indicate that depending on what state you lived in could change how things might go. So in some states justice might prevail one way & in other states it might prevail the other.

[RRP]

LZ, are you the author of that article?

[SlowBurn]

It is geographically based. However for those who make the mistake of absolute silence do not waste mine and others time complaining that you are arrested, incarcerated and have to spend all your lawyer money to a bondsman. Silence=Arrest=Incarceration=Burden of Proof Reversal. Each can do what they want but if you remain silent after consulting with an attorney and are arrested it is YOUR fault and you cannot blame anyone but yourself. You would need to also get another attorney as the one who advised you is ignorant.

A case in point is the Trayvon Martin shooting. People tend to forget that Zimmerman 1. spoke freely to the police, walked them through the whole thing repeatedly, cooperated fully, and 2. was NOT arrested by the police. The police concluded that the shooting was self defense. Later, under political and racial pressure, prosecutors charged him anyway. Whatever mistakes Zimmerman made, his speaking with law enforcement was not one of them. At trial, his lawyers made very effective use of the fact that he cooperated fully and generally acted as an innocent person would.

[knkali]

There must be an attorney here that can chime in?????

[downtownv]

There must be an attorney here that can chime in?????


Won't happen, There's no one to Bill!:D

[downtownv]

It is geographically based. However for those who make the mistake of absolute silence do not waste mine and others time complaining that you are arrested, incarcerated and have to spend all your lawyer money to a bondsman. Silence=Arrest=Incarceration=Burden of Proof Reversal. Each can do what they want but if you remain silent after consulting with an attorney and are arrested it is YOUR fault and you cannot blame anyone but yourself. You would need to also get another attorney as the one who advised you is ignorant.


If you CCW and you do not have an attorneys card you can call instantly 24/7 then you are a negligent CCW holder. Agreedb4uqzme.

Well I'm in NJ, 'nough said!

[Longitude Zero]

Well I'm in NJ, 'nough said!


True. I consider that area possibly "geographically challenged". Too close to the Peoples Republik of Konnecticut.

[Bawanna]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2014/03/11/14/37/us-flood-crash-victim-sues-his-rescuers

Good example of why lawyers exist. Special because the last three days I have drove through a slightly flooded road. It's in a big farm field and it does at times get deep. This time it is not deep, at least for any normal size car or truck, a MG midget might not make it.
Everybody drives through even though there are signs closing the road.
A county guy questioned me driving through it yesterday. I told him I wasn't one of the sheep that needed anyone to tell me what was safe. It's not deep, even if I get washed off the road it's in the middle of a field. I'll just be stuck.
Going that route is 10 minutes to work, going around unflooded roads is 30 to 45.
The whiner in the link is a good reason why firefighters and cops learn to cover six early on. Nice nest egg for lawyers though.

[Longitude Zero]

Sorry Bawanna but for folks that drive thru high moving or not I hope drowning is in their future. No offenses intended but driving thru high water is for the Darwin Award Nominees.

[Bawanna]

Sorry Bawanna but for folks that drive thru high moving or not I hope drowning is in their future. No offenses intended but driving thru high water is for the Darwin Award Nominees.

I totally agree. But there's a difference of the 3 or 4" of water I drove through and the raging river this idiot drove through. Enough to overturn his rig and have to breath in an air pocket. But then to sue his rescuers because they took too long, now that's priceless.

My point you obviously mistook is I've got enough common sense that I don't need a sign to tell me there's 4ft of water over the road, do not turn your Prius into a boat. I would not do that. However when big brother post a sign where there it is perfectly flat with a few inches of water over the road for 20 or 30 ft at most, stand aside, bawanna's coming through to save a 45 minute drive around. Of course the really smart thing to do would be to just stay home and do something productive like make sawdust.

[muggsy]

Just a tiny bit of common sense and the world could be free of attorneys. You won't find no attorney phone number in my wallet.

Speak the truth, answer questions carefully without over doing. Be honest, be polite, and don't try to BS the officer. Don't mess with or try to hide evidence for or against you.

If you are in the right justice will prevail. If your in the wrong justice will prevail.

Justice is blind, Bawanna. You make get a fair trial and be found guilty even though you are innocent of any wrong doing. A good Lawyer can be your best friend. An over zealous prosecutor your worst enemy. Think about it.

[SlowBurn]

There must be an attorney here that can chime in?????


Ahem.
(That will be $750, please)

[muggsy]

I'm not an attorney, but I play one on this website. Anything that you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You do not have to prove your innocence the state has to prove your guilt. Keep your mouth shut. Give the police your name and address. Tell them only that you will cooperate and give them a full statement in the presents of your attorney. Nothing more need be said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

http://www.criminal-defense-law-nyc.com/Why-You-Need-to-Hire-a-Criminal-Defense-Lawyer/Never-Speak-With-Police.shtml

[knkali]

Funny how many here despise attorneys but when fellow members have problems the threads inevitably go to "lawyer up" as a solution. Everyone hates them until they need them. The problem isn't the lawyers, its us. Society wants everything settled for them. The ideas of the Golden Rule and doing what is right triumphing over the mighty dollar has vanished. Again, we need to look at a bigger picture just like the militarization of our police. We demanded our legal system(and our police and our government)to be the way it is and now that we got what we wanted, we loath it(them).

[muggsy]

I don't dislike all lawyers, just the ambulance chasers.

[SlowBurn]

I'm not an attorney, but I play one on this website. Anything that you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You do not have to prove your innocence the state has to prove your guilt. Keep your mouth shut. Give the police your name and address. Tell them only that you will cooperate and give them a full statement in the presents of your attorney. Nothing more need be said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

http://www.criminal-defense-law-nyc.com/Why-You-Need-to-Hire-a-Criminal-Defense-Lawyer/Never-Speak-With-Police.shtml

Absolutely that's your right. And its very good general advice by criminal defense attorneys to their clients, especially since their clients are, 99.99%, dumb CRIMINALS who almost always talk their way into prison whenever they open their mouths. Lots of fun stories about that. Drives their lawyers nuts.

But if you're in a SD shooting, just know, as Mr. LZ says, when you clam up the LEOs have no way completely to investigate, and usually no option but to secure your presence in the crowbar hotel till your lawyer eventually gets you out, which is going to be much longer and more expensive than you expect. They're also not going to be able to do anything about the real bad guy, assuming he lives. Its frustrating for officers, as it is when any victim of a crime refuses to cooperate with to them; but their hands are pretty much tied.

Should you talk? The expensive answer is, as always, "it depends on the exact circumstances of your particular case"

[Longitude Zero]

Absolutely that's your right. And its very good general advice by criminal defense attorneys to their clients, especially since their clients are, 99.99%, dumb CRIMINALS who almost always talk their way into prison whenever they open their mouths. Lots of fun stories about that. Drives their lawyers nuts.

But if you're in a SD shooting, just know, as Mr. LZ says, when you clam up the LEOs have no way completely to investigate, and usually no option but to secure your presence in the crowbar hotel till your lawyer eventually gets you out, which is going to be much longer and more expensive than you expect. They're also not going to be able to do anything about the real bad guy, assuming he lives. Its frustrating for officers, as it is when any victim of a crime refuses to cooperate with to them; but their hands are pretty much tied.

Should you talk? The expensive answer is, as always, "it depends on the exact circumstances of your particular case"


Thanks. It is like the choice between the lion and the lady. Choose carefully as you never know which one is more dangerous. There are certain things that need to be communicated to responding officer as the article discusses. Even an attorney will most likely advise you to answer certain questions as it will be necessary to start preparing your defense.

[muggsy]

Absolutely that's your right. And its very good general advice by criminal defense attorneys to their clients, especially since their clients are, 99.99%, dumb CRIMINALS who almost always talk their way into prison whenever they open their mouths. Lots of fun stories about that. Drives their lawyers nuts.

But if you're in a SD shooting, just know, as Mr. LZ says, when you clam up the LEOs have no way completely to investigate, and usually no option but to secure your presence in the crowbar hotel till your lawyer eventually gets you out, which is going to be much longer and more expensive than you expect. They're also not going to be able to do anything about the real bad guy, assuming he lives. Its frustrating for officers, as it is when any victim of a crime refuses to cooperate with to them; but their hands are pretty much tied.

Should you talk? The expensive answer is, as always, "it depends on the exact circumstances of your particular case"

In my jurisdiction I would have no fear of talking to the police. In the city of Cleveland proper which has been owned by the liberal gun grabbing democrats since the 1960's, I'm not saying a damn thing.

[TheTman]

I talked to a few attorney's about having them available for SD shootings, and they ALL wanted thousands of dollars for a retainer fee, to be able to call them anytime. One guy wanted $12,000, the rest were lower, but still in the thousands. I decided I would just take my chances with the Police and just be careful about what I said. I don't travel anywhere that my CC permit isn't good, and never travel anywhere near NYC, Chicago (or Illinois), or anywhere north and east of Tennessee. Although I may go to DC for a 2A rally some day. I did drive all through Baltimore, Philly, Upper NY state, Mass, and Vermont, with a loaded 9mm in the console of my minivan, but I had my wife and kids with me, and Once I got lost in Baltimore, and was very glad I had the 9mm handy. Didn't need it fortunately, I kept moving, and eventually made it out of the area. That was many years ago, when the kids were still very young, and I didn't want to take a chance on getting carjacked or something. And the anti-gunners weren't so numerous. Nowadays, I wouldn't even think about doing that.


On driving thru high water, my daughter drove a very nice Chrysler into some high water, and sucked water up into the engine, then when she opened the door water came in and flooded the floor, and guess where the computer sits, on the floor under the driver's seat. I was pretty upset, it was a totally decked out Chrysler next to the top of line model, with moon roof, premium sound system, power everything, seats, windows, locks, even had remote start on it. I'd got a great deal on it, and she ruined it within 6 months. The insurance company suggested we total it, saying once that computer gets wet, it will never be the same. Man I hated to do that, but I figured the insurance company was probably right about it not running right after the computer had got wet, so it got totaled. She got an older Oldsmobile for a replacement, not nearly as nice, and with hardly any features, but it was a dependable car that an older gentleman had driven, until he passed away, so that is what she ended up with.

[b4uqzme]

Anytime your insurance company insists on paying off your car...better do it.

[muggsy]

Absolutely that's your right. And its very good general advice by criminal defense attorneys to their clients, especially since their clients are, 99.99%, dumb CRIMINALS who almost always talk their way into prison whenever they open their mouths. Lots of fun stories about that. Drives their lawyers nuts.

But if you're in a SD shooting, just know, as Mr. LZ says, when you clam up the LEOs have no way completely to investigate, and usually no option but to secure your presence in the crowbar hotel till your lawyer eventually gets you out, which is going to be much longer and more expensive than you expect. They're also not going to be able to do anything about the real bad guy, assuming he lives. Its frustrating for officers, as it is when any victim of a crime refuses to cooperate with to them; but their hands are pretty much tied.

Should you talk? The expensive answer is, as always, "it depends on the exact circumstances of your particular case"

The police have all kinds of ways of investigating a shooting. They don't need my help. As I said, I'll cooperate fully and give them a full statement in the presence of my lawyer. All that I'm asking for is the same courtesy that they would afford a fellow officer in a shooting.

[Longitude Zero]

Sorry but IMHO driving thru high water is a potential Darwin Award recipient. It is just plain stupid.

[muggsy]

Sorry but IMHO driving thru high water is a potential Darwin Award recipient. It is just plain stupid.

+1 Especially for someone who swims like a stone, Bawanna.

[Pointblank]

I was on the job for 32 years in Ohio. If you invoke complete silence at the scene you are mostly likely going back to the station in handcuffs until things get straightened out. I would recommend giving the basic facts and then make your phone call to the lawyer.

[pbagley]

The event of a defensive shooting was covered in our permit training class here in MN. The steps are:

- Call 911 and tell them that you were attacked.
- When the police arrive restate that you were attacked and that all of the evidence of the attack is here before them.
- In MN your gun will be taken into evidence, then you will be arrested and taken to jail. That is the way it is here, everyone goes to jail.
- Talk to a lawyer before giving a statement. There are ways that you or I may word something that can be misinterpreted by a prosecutor later. The lawyer is there to ensure that you give a factual and unambiguous statement. With a lawyer's help the charges may be dropped in defensive shooting cases. Depending on the prosecutor's office you may instead proceed to trial.

Keep in mind that you will be here to enjoy living after recovering from the worst day of your life. It is the best alternative in a very bad situation.

[JERRY]

The event of a defensive shooting was covered in our permit training class here in MN. The steps are:

- Call 911 and tell them that you were attacked.
- When the police arrive restate that you were attacked and that all of the evidence of the attack is here before them.
- In MN your gun will be taken into evidence, then you will be arrested and taken to jail. That is the way it is here, everyone goes to jail.
- Talk to a lawyer before giving a statement. There are ways that you or I may word something that can be misinterpreted by a prosecutor later. The lawyer is there to ensure that you give a factual and unambiguous statement. With a lawyer's help the charges may be dropped in defensive shooting cases. Depending on the prosecutor's office you may instead proceed to trial.

Keep in mind that you will be here to enjoy living after recovering from the worst day of your life. It is the best alternative in a very bad situation.



I have to ask, why would you be charged prior to the investigation? detained yes, charged? not unless your story doesn't add up.


if you cant justify to the cops why you shot somebody then you will be charged and have to beat it in court. a self defense claimed shooting does not mean youre finger printed and charged with murder and have to get a lawyer to beat the rap in court. maybe im misunderstanding you....?