Mistakes happen

[jg rider]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrJMQupYxaw

[Tilos]

Same deal happened to an officer at a range I belonged to.
When she lifted her coat with her weak hand to draw and fire, that draw string pulled the trigger.
She had her feet at shoulder width and got way more than the nick the guy got.
just sayin'

[Ikeo74]

Another "Glock Leg".:confused:

[Bawanna]

It's ironic that after I developed an unwarranted fear of c0cked and locked 1911 carry it was the Glock that cured me and brought me back to reality.

I went to Para LDA's for a margin of error which I still think is a great concept. I was perfectly comfortable carrying a Glock even though I didn't love it.

Chatted with a fellow 1911 fan and detective here and compared. He asked me what do you do to not make a Glock fire. Quite simply you don't touch the trigger. No grip safety, no thumb safety, just a little hunk of plastic on the trigger. It works perfectly provided you don't screw up with a cheap holster or coat with strings as mentioned here.

The we applied the same logic to the 1911. Don't touch the trigger even with all the safeties off and it won't fire. Add a thumb safety and a grip safety and I lost my comfort zone packing the Glock and felt completely confident with the 1911 again.

I guess in summary it's all about the finger.

[muggsy]

It wasn't the draw string or the Glock trigger that caused the negligent discharge. It was the chief's inattention that caused the gun to go off. Both the Draw String and the gun are inanimate objects. It took a damn fool to do what he did.

[itsthelaw]

He said he was embarrassed and should be. This is exactly why I see no reason to take out your handgun unless you plan to use it as intended. If you need to take it out to show it or compare it, take off the holster and reholster before putting it back onto your body. Since I use kydex, single-clip holsters from Foxx, this is easily done.

[Bawanna]

I respectfully totally disagree with that plan. My gun comes out, gets put on the dresser and the holster follows. Unlacing your belt and removing a holster with the gun in it is courting disaster. I don't like thumb breaks but rely on a proper fitting holster but I don't want to test it undressing.

I can see where this would be slightly more acceptable with a clip on type holster but I still do the same thing. I usually make a quick visual on the gun every time I take it off or put it on.

As long as I'm disagreeing I had to come back and add that this would absolutely be the sound method to use if one pocket carries. A carry method I have absolutely no use for whatsoever. With pocket carry it might be best to remove the pants, remove the gun with holster intact and then put your pants back on. Repeat the process as you dress. Basically treat the weapon like a hand grenade with the pin pulled.

[b4uqzme]

OOOPS!

Thanks for giving us the finger (speech) Colonel.

[Bawanna]

I never give finger speeches. Just can't control myself when I strongly disagree with something. And unlike some I don't often strongly disagree just to strongly disagree if you get the flow of my creek.

That method might be the ticket in.........danger Will Robinson, do not go there.

[b4uqzme]

Sorry boss. I forgot to use the "rolleyes" sarcasm smiley. I just can't resist a good pun. Or a bad one either. :rolleyes:

I agree with your finger and your holstering advice. :) It seems real dangerous to be strapping on a holster with a loaded gun inside. I'll just be careful and do it the right way.

P.S. I'm going into business putting drawstrings on hoodies. Just sayin". :rolleyes:

[TheTman]

I take my pistol out and put in in the center console while driving long distances, when my holster is at the 4:00 - 5:00 position. It's more comfortable that way, I don't have the handle sticking into my back. And it's easier to get too, while seated in my car. Plus if pulled over by police, it's not in close proximity to my wallet.

[Bawanna]

Please don't call me boss, it gives me a false sense of being a somebody and I've been a nobody all my life. Much too late to make any kind of somebody transition at this point. That and dealing with larger size hats (I already have a huge head) and the dislocated shoulders as I pat myself on the back, well it's just not worth the glory ya know?

[ltxi]

Ok, boss

Even though mine don't have them, I'm a fan of external thumb safety mod for Glocks.

[GROTMAN]

"I just can't resist a good pun. Or a bad one either." :rolleyes:
I often find myself in the same boat.. and in my opinion that ranked as a good one. http://www.ncgunowners.com/forum/images/smilies/bowdown.gif

[b4uqzme]

Please don't call me boss, it gives me a false sense of being a somebody and I've been a nobody all my life. Much too late to make any kind of somebody transition at this point. That and dealing with larger size hats (I already have a huge head) and the dislocated shoulders as I pat myself on the back, well it's just not worth the glory ya know?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOTDn2A7hcY ;)

[RRP]

The news story calls this an "accidental" discharge. I disagree. Muggsy got it right when he identified it as a negligent discharge. It was the result of extremely poor choices and sloppy gun handling.

This was not the first time the chief shot himself. I'll resist the temptation to editorialize, here. You can make your own call.

[berettabone]

There is nothing wrong with pocket carry, with the proper holster. When it comes out, it comes out with the holster, keeping the trigger covered completely. Then, the firearm comes out of the holster, is checked, then goes back in, ready for another day. To me, pocket carry is no more safe or unsafe than carrying cocked and locked. The same things that can cause a discharge during pocket carry, are the same things that can make a cock and lock unsafe. Doesn't take much to bump something, and flip that safety off, especially with an open top holster. Then, you're in the same boat as everyone else.

[ltxi]

I carry my Colt Mustang and Sig P238 cocked and locked in the back pocket of cargo pants/shorts. I tried using a holster for awhile but that made them too bulky and added weight.

[RRP]

I carry my Colt Mustang and Sig P238 cocked and locked in the back pocket of cargo pants/shorts. I tried using a holster for awhile but that made them too bulky and added weight.

What balls you have!

[b4uqzme]

What balls you have!


No, he's cool. Those are in the front :p

[jocko]

thats why hge carries it in his back pocket to. He kwants to keep his balls. I would not let the colonel carry like that even. Muggsy OK and Downtown OK for their asses are so big now that a BANG thing might just get rid of some of the excess. Just sayin:7:

[b4uqzme]

The bullet would have to go, like, all the way around the world in order to hit his balls. He's safe. Just sayin'. Me, on the other hand, I'm keepin' my legs crossed.

[AIRret]

The news story calls this an "accidental" discharge. I disagree. Muggsy got it right when he identified it as a negligent discharge. It was the result of extremely poor choices and sloppy gun handling.

This was not the first time the chief shot himself. I'll resist the temptation to editorialize, here. You can make your own call.

Agreed!! He made several safety violations even before he shot himself!

[RRP]

Agreed!! He made several safety violations even before he shot himself!

Roger that, including with the gun he was looking over.

[AIRret]

Roger that, including with the gun he was looking over.

Yes, I couldn't believe it when he casually put his hand in front of the muzzle, and then he was flashing by-standers! Unreal! Even worse for an LEO.

[RRP]

Yes, I couldn't believe it when he casually put his hand in front of the muzzle, and then he was flashing by-standers! Unreal! Even worse for an LEO.

Is it any surprise he's shot himself twice?

You know what they say about the third time.

[AIRret]

Yes…it's a charm! I just don't want to be there when it happens!

My Mother "drilled" me about gun safety…she wouldn't even let me point a toy gun
(and I had many, many many even a civil war cannon and a bazooka) at anyone!

[Bawanna]

I posted in long long ago about the female police officer in uniform who came into the gun shop where I was doing a brief on the job training deal.

She approached me at the counter drew her weapon aimed it directly at me and stated she needed some ammo for it. (She didn't know what caliber it was???) The owner happened to be watching from the other end of the counter, no doubt due to the uniform.
He wasn't a fast mover but he covered the 15 or 20 ft in .0000002 tenths of a second. Pinned her arm to the counter, jerked the gun out of her hand and slid it down the counter.

He told her to carefully retrieve her duty weapon, put it directly in the holster and get the hell out. He was some kind of ticked. It was so fast I don't think it even registered with me.

The uniform don't make em Sammy Safety award winners.

[AIRret]

The uniform don't make em Sammy Safety award winners..

That's crazy!

I've seen a couple of bone head moves in gun stores but none of the "brainless dweebs" were in uniform.

[muggsy]

The news story calls this an "accidental" discharge. I disagree. Muggsy got it right when he identified it as a negligent discharge. It was the result of extremely poor choices and sloppy gun handling.

This was not the first time the chief shot himself. I'll resist the temptation to editorialize, here. You can make your own call.

Like I always told the kids in little league watch the ball until it's in your glove. Never holster a loaded gun by feel.

[muggsy]

I carry my Colt Mustang and Sig P238 cocked and locked in the back pocket of cargo pants/shorts. I tried using a holster for awhile but that made them too bulky and added weight.

You are a true fashion plate, Itxi. :)

[muggsy]

thats why hge carries it in his back pocket to. He kwants to keep his balls. I would not let the colonel carry like that even. Muggsy OK and Downtown OK for their asses are so big now that a BANG thing might just get rid of some of the excess. Just sayin:7:

Leave it to old Jocko to notice another man's behind. :) Just sayin.

[RainingAgain]

He said he was embarrassed and should be. This is exactly why I see no reason to take out your handgun unless you plan to use it as intended. If you need to take it out to show it or compare it, take off the holster and reholster before putting it back onto your body. Since I use kydex, single-clip holsters from Foxx, this is easily done.

In big city gunstores, where few customers are known by sight, pulling a concealed weapon could draw the fire of more than one employee.

If you are shopping your gun as trade bait, or coming in for a holster, you bring the gun in UNLOADED & CASED. This Chief thought there were other "rules" for him. He once had a ND with a gun he "thought" wasn't loaded.

This is his second strike, hope the third isn't fatal to someone.

[jg rider]

I have a great Idea!
Let have a poll to see how many of you have had an accidental discharge / s, and tell what you could have done to prevent it.
Telling the what the final outcome was is optional.

I'll start.
None

[berettabone]

None, in 42 years...............

[RevRay]

Not a single one in 349 days!

[AIRret]

If you consider long guns and handguns none in 59 years!
However, I think that the more you handle guns (with respect to frequency over the years)
the more likely it will happen!

Even though it's never happened to me I do know that FAMILIARITY can and will breed contempt, and this can lead to ND!

[jeepster09]

Sorry boss. I forgot to use the "rolleyes" sarcasm smiley. I just can't resist a good pun. Or a bad one either. :rolleyes:

I agree with your finger and your holstering advice. :) It seems real dangerous to be strapping on a holster with a loaded gun inside. I'll just be careful and do it the right way.

P.S. I'm going into business putting drawstrings on hoodies. Just sayin". :rolleyes:


Great idea, I like it, then give away free hoodies in da hood.:yo:

[ltxi]

You are a true fashion plate, Itxi. :)

Yeah, and at my age lookin' good as I can is worth a couple/three extra grooves in my butt.

[b4uqzme]

Thanks Jeepster....I was afraid that one was gonna slip by unnoticed. That was one of my better ones. Just bein' humble.

As for the poll: none. The closest call that I can remember? My brother in law gave me a .22 rifle to sight in the scope for him. When I checked it, it had a round in the chamber. BUT I DID CHECK IT!.

[RainingAgain]

Almost None.

I did once send a 9mm round down range and it hit the ceiling about half way there. I was showing my CPL Instructor that my Ruger SR9 trigger had failed to reset again.

[pbagley]

One accidental discharge, 34 years ago. Yup, in 1980. I had an old and rough Colt 1903 32ACP that had been FTF a few times. Third or fourth time I just reached up with my left thumb and pushed the slide closed. Gun is pointed down range, slide goes into battery and BANG! You guessed it - my finger was inside the trigger guard. The fact that it was off the trigger was not relevant. When the gun lurched forward as the slide closed the momentum was enough to have my stationary finger trip the trigger.

Lessons learned:
1. Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
2. Keep your finger outside the trigger guard until you are ready to fire.
3. Never force anything when dealing with a firearm.

I was careful before, I've been even more careful since. Having spent a lot of time on ranges, I've seen a lot of careless behavior.

[RRP]

I'm surprised anyone admitted a mistake. Hats off to ya, pbagley.

Safe shootin'.

[Bawanna]

Shoot long enough and you'll have an accidental/negligent discharge. Weather one admits it or not.

[b4uqzme]

Well that's comforting Colonel :001_tt2:

[ltxi]

I almost had an AD/ND once, by all rights should have....serious stupid and if it had happened I would be seriously dead

[newCW45guy]

Same deal happened to an officer at a range I belonged to.
When she lifted her coat with her weak hand to draw and fire, that draw string pulled the trigger.
She had her feet at shoulder width and got way more than the nick the guy got.
just sayin'

So she apparently got the drawstring caught when she holstered and was a walking time bomb?

Gun goes in as soon as my pants are on... I carry IWB and if drawn I'm very, very careful re-holstering.

But thanks for the heads up.. any drawstrings on strong side can be easily modified to weak side.

[Bawanna]

Well that's comforting Colonel :001_tt2:

I think they can be disastrous discharges or just skeery cases of oops. That's the big difference.

Disastrous discharges should be rare as chicken lips if a person has any kind of clue at all.

Even the guru Jeff Cooper shot the power meter of his house with his empty 1911. His friends actually got the destroyed meter from the power company and had it bronzed for his desk.

Negligent? Yes. But nobody bleeding or physically hurt although I'm sure his pride took a hit.

[getsome]

I aint got a thing to say about discharges in an apartment, accidental or not....:o

[hardluk1]

I have 26 years of CC'n and another 18 years hunting with a revolver and I don't think I ever re holstered with out looking at what I am doing and with my higher riding cc pistols putting my trigger finger over the trigger guard as a guide it into the holster.


What set me straight early on was a guy showing off speed drawing and some fancy re holstering with his black hawk 44mag and somehow got something wrong and fired it going back into the holster and run a 240gr fmj thru his thigh muscle . It missed any bone and major veins but he did carry a limp for the next few months after a few days at the hospital. That was some 38 years ago.

[HAP1978]

I carry almost 100% of the time when I leave the house but I never carry with a round chambered. I just practice a lot with it to immediately chamber a round when I pull my pistol out of it's holster.

I'm sure I'll take a lot of flack for that but ever since I started doing it I'm much more calm and relaxed about carrying.

I first heard about carrying this way at one of the concealed weapons classes that I went to. The instructor was a policeman for 34 years and certified firearms instructor who also teaches FBI recruits on the side. So he's not a novice.

From what he told us the Israeli police officers carry this way. He talked about the pros vs the cons of carrying without a chambered round and it just made more sense to me. He said he carries this way and has for a while. After that I never looked back.

No guns in my house are chambered. They're loaded but never chambered. I've taught my wife how to chamber a round in the shotgun and handgun if she needs to protect herself and the kids.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bawanna]

You'll get no flak from me. I will pray you never need your gun in a confrontation situation. You'll lose.

I sense a lack of confidence in yourself and your weapon.

If your comfy doing it go for it. If I did I would not carry a Kahr. Chambering the first round in any autoloader is when there will be an issue.

I get a well used Glock or a nearly worn out Beretta.

Actually the best bet would be a revolver.

[HAP1978]

No lack of confidence in myself or my weapon, if you met me you'd probably say I'm a little over confident. You can't learn much about someone from a forum my friend but we may disagree on that also.

The lack of confidence you're referring to probably comes from me not saying my way is the right way and everyone else is wrong. I'm just on here because I like Kahr pistols and like hanging out with other guys who like Kahr pistols, not here to get into arguments and be an arm chair quarterback.

I shoot all the time and have been for many years. Never had an issue with my pistols chambering the first round myself and I've been doing that for 15 years. Go figure.

Thanks for the advice about the revolvers but I'm fairly certain I know enough to keep carrying an autoloader.

Good thing that makes this country and forum great is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You do it your way and I'll do it mine. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Keep on keeping on.

[wyntrout]

Chambering a round is where most malfunctions occur. In a tense situation... not sure you've ever experienced a combat type situation where the adrenalin rush changes your senses and physiologic reactions... tunnel vision and loss of fine motor skills... the fight or flight... or crap your pants reflex, but things change and you may not have the luxury of two hands to rack your pistol... or in doing so call attention to yourself as an immediate threat. But, a real possibility is that you're using one or more hands to do other things... as in fending off an attack or trying to LOAD your UNLOADED weapon while trying to seek cover or holding an assailant off. If your pistol isn't loaded... one in the chamber... chances are that it will never be loaded in time to be other than a rock in your free hand... IF it's your gun hand!

You're deluding yourself with the "feeling more safe" attitude. That's like the people who haven't made up their minds that they can pull the trigger to defend themselves or their loved ones yet. Waiting until the moment that the hesitation can kill you is stupid.

That's not just my opinion, but the opinion of most people who carry weapons for defense. The gun is NOT LOADED if a round is not in the chamber... and you may never get the chance to rack the pistol... successfully. This action is best done under controlled conditions so you can ascertain that the pistol is indeed loaded and ready to fire.

The Israelis are military and can chamber rounds before combat, but we are faced with unexpected confrontations at close quarters. I want to pull my weapon and fire instantaneously... having already decided that was necessary. I don't want to worry about a failure to feed or any other possible problem... fumbling or drawing attention to myself and getting immeditely targeted... like in the Whack-a-Mole arcade game.

Second place sucks in a fight for your life.

The Kahr pistol will not fire unless you pull the trigger... a long double action, revolver-like pull... plenty of safety for a properly holstered pistol.

Wynn

[HAP1978]

Maybe so and we could sit here and argue until we're blue in the face. Having a round chambered worked out well for that old boy when it went off and he shot himself in the leg. He's extremely lucky that it didn't pass through his leg and hit his artery. Along with hundreds of other people who deluded themselves and thought it was "unloaded" and are either dead or someone else is because of their negligence and having a round chambered when there was no need to have one chambered.

I'm certain a huge majority of the Israeli army/police officers haven't seen a combat situation but they train that way so when the time comes it becomes an automatic reflex. You'll fight how you train.

I know it is most people's opinion to always carry chambered and good for everyone who thinks that way. I'm not saying that's wrong its just a different opinion. New ideas and new ways of thinking are always tough for people.

For me the benefits out way the risks.

[berettabone]

What risk? The risk of shooting yourself, or the risk of not being able to rack the slide fast enough? No one ever said that the Israeli police were the smartest group on the block. There is no argument here. It's a proven fact that you're faster with one chambered, simple as that. We're not in Israeli territory. You've been doing it this way for 15 years, because you've never had to use your firearm apparently. I feel for you, if you do.:o

[wyntrout]

You're free to be as unprepared as you want. It's unfortunate that you had a very opinionated instructor with an opinion that differs from perhaps 99% of the people who instruct for self defense.

In critical situations Murphy is always there to assist those who don't train for the worst possible outcomes. Having a positively LOADED firearm is very desirable instead of having to depend on a round being chambered under perhaps the worst condition or most inopportune time.

It has been shown that a determined knife attack inside 21 feet is almost always fatal to an experienced policeman who doesn't already HAVE his gun unholstered and ready for presentation. At close quarters, you are faced with preventing being killed or disabled before you can draw, let alone have two hands and the time to chamber a round. Stuff happens quickly.

'nuff said.

Wynn

[jg rider]

Here' a stupid thought. There's 2 shooting competition shows I watch on TV. One is 3 Gun Nation and I can't remember in the other name, sudden brain drain. They used to be on the sportsman channel, but I watch them on the Glen Beck, Blaze channel.
Well anyway these top shooters have to shoot their pistols during courses of fire. When they have to reach for their gun, they have to chamber a round then shoot.
They're working with full size pistols that are easy to grab the slide, with what seems like really light recoil spring.
I've seen some shooters short stroke the slide. This was in competition, under pressure, by world class shooters.
I've played drawing from under a cover garment at the same time as they reach for there pistols. I beat them by a large margin. :D

[berettabone]

Glock owner?

[Bawanna]

To be clear here, nobody is arguing here. This hasn't even reached a debate level at this point.

berettabone raises a very valid point. The average gun toter will in all probability never have to draw or have need for his gun. It's kind of like a fire extinguisher even though your house never caught on fire.

So until the day comes when you need it and you need it badly all will be fine.

I've seen the elephant so to speak and I don't share this to project like I'm some sort of authority on the subject, only that I know what it's like, but I would have had hard time even loading a magazine let alone chambering a round in a tight gun or any gun.

Adrenaline does funny stuff to the body.

A semi weak analogy was a conversation I had with a new friend several years ago over where we fish every year. Sitting at a picnic table talking to this guy and another fella who I'd know for several years. Got to talking guns as usual and he declared that his preferred weapon for defense was a shotgun.
I pointed out a man walking across the RV park heading in our direction. Told him the guy was a serial killer intent on killing everyone he meets and he's headed our way and will be here in 30 seconds. I put my 1911 on the table which he hadn't seen and told him he better ready his shotgun. Turns out it was at home in Oregon.

Bottom line is you do what works for you. Doesn't matter in the slightest what I or anyone else here thinks. I have an guy I went to school with who carries empty chamber on his Glock. I don't try to change or convert him either, in his case it's a good thing. If he ever turns on me I know I've got plenty of time.

[berettabone]

Apparently, this poster didn't go through the drill, that someone can pretty much be on you from 25 ft. away or closer, before you even get your firearm out of the holster. Having to hold them off with one arm, your toast. I have also taught my wife how to rack and fire a few firearms. The one that's under the couch, definitely already has one in the hole. Point, shoot, done. Next.

[SlowBurn]

I carry almost 100% of the time when I leave the house but I never carry with a round chambered. I just practice a lot with it to immediately chamber a round when I pull my pistol out of it's holster.


Me too. On the interweb we're a tiny minority and any time you mention it provokes a great chorus of negative responses. But in real life we're not nearly so alone.

Here's a more balanced discussion of the topic:
http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2010/09/myths-of-israeli-method-of-carry-or-why.html?m=1

[Bawanna]

Doesn't look balanced to me at all. I read a lot of excuses but again it doesn't matter in the least to me how any one carries.

I count on no one but myself so its mind of matter, I don't mind, so it don't matter.

[SlowBurn]

Doesn't look balanced to me at all.

If there's any "tilt" it's toward loaded chamber which is how the author carries. But he presents the pros and cons and the factors that should be considered in individual situations.

[AIRret]

Double action revolvers are considered some of the less complicated and some of the safest handguns to operate! Yet if you think about it (I know this has been posted before) it always has one in the camber!

Carry a heavy DA/SA if that would make you feel better…but put one in the chamber.
Or have a New York trigger installed in your gun….they are very heavy!

[b4uqzme]

We are each responsible for our own lives so it's our own decision --- in the pipe or not. So although I prefer to keep one chambered, more power to you. Do what YOU think is best.

Kudos though to those who are trying to change your mind HAP1978. They aren't trying to prove they are right or be know-it-alls or anything. They are just trying to help keep you and your family safe.

Regarding revolvers: AIRret is right. They always have one in the chamber and are generally regarded as one of the safest ways to carry. That's why I like to carry Kahrs. With one in the chamber it's exactly the same as a revolver. I'm one long, smooth trigger pull from safety.

The real lesson from this thread is to always heed ALL of the rules for safe handling of firearms. That way, if you make a mistake with one of them, it's not likely to be "disastrous"...to use the Colonel's term.

Be safe!

[RRP]

We are each responsible for our own lives so it's our own decision --- in the pipe or not.



Kudos though to those who are trying to change your mind HAP1978.

With the exception of these contradictory statements, I agree with your post.

[b4uqzme]

With the exception of these contradictory statements, I agree with your post.


I said "though" :o

I really do mean both statements and I don't think they contradict at all. It is our own choice. But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with discussing the advantages of either perspective. And there is nothing wrong with being confident in one viewpoint over the other. There is nothing wrong with trying to persuade HAP1978 and Slowburn to carry with one in the pipe but it will always ultimately be their choice.

There's a bigger issue/point to be made that our democrat friends don't seem to understand. Persuasion is OK. If you feel you are right...go out and try to get people to agree with you. Mandates are wrong...that's the lazy way...you cannot force people to comply...that's the antithesis of freedom.

[RRP]

But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with discussing the advantages of either perspective.

I absolutely agree with this statement, too. But that's different than what you said above.

Overall, I think we're in agreement. I never carry NUP, but I respect the choices of those who choose to do so.

[b4uqzme]

yes RRP we are in agreement. Thanks.

But my thoughts are not isolated to single sentences. I ask you to keep them in context in order to help me communicate my full meaning. There are 2 sentences that follow the one you quoted that are critical to what I have to say.

And thanks again,

[getsome]

Like the defense attorney asked Rooster Cogburn,

"Mr Cogburn, did you spring from cover and approach my client with your revolver cocked and loaded?

Cogburn: If it aint cocked and loaded it don't shoot...

Nuff said

[Bawanna]

They don't call him Lucky Ned Pepper for nuthin.