The G at it again

[knkali]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/15/california-gun-store-refuses-to-turn-over-customer-list-to-federal-officials/?intcmp=latestnews

[ripley16]

I'm a little conflicted on this. Looks like this guy wants to manufacture without following the laws. If he sells out of state, he has to serialize his product. I'm not sure this is a "freedom" loss or a gross violation of laws everyone else abides by.

[AJBert]

I have to say I'm on the side of the ATF here. The lower IS the firearm, plain and simple. This guy is selling firearms per the law. If he were making them just for himself I don't think there would be a problem.


Even though these are 80% lowers, he is providing basic instructions to make them 100%. As far a demanding the names, I agree with the ATF on that issue, too. The folks that bought them should have had to fill out 4473's. Again, pretty clear to me.

[Longitude Zero]

I am on the side of the businessman this time. It is NOT very easy to turn an 80% lower into a functioning firearm. You have to have the correct skills and equipment. per BATFE regs 80% lowers are legal or at least quasi-legal. It is in my opinion another vast overreach by a jack-booted agency.

[chrish]

By the letter of the law, he's definitely on the fringe. It's legal to sell an 80% lower. His problem is that he's living on the edge w/ some of the drill markings evidently.


This guy is already in a fight w/ his local government over his signage (Nutnfancy video recently) outside his shop, so he's got two legal battles going at once. Best of luck to him. While he might have been successful at the local level. Fighting the ATF is like fighting the EPA. Not likely to win it, particularly w/ the current administration.


Would I give them my customer list? Nope. I'd rot in jail first after I burned hardcopies and physically destroyed all my harddrives. Given the predicament he's created for himself, I'd take the same position he's taken. I'd give them my inventory of 'illegal' lowers and once it blew over, I'd keep my nose clean selling exactly what other 80% lowers look like.


None of this is right. It's all 2A infringement. So, you gotta stand up or sit down. Each person has to decide that based on what's going on in their life and other responsibilities. I guess this guy has that ability in life right now. More power to him!

[RRP]

It's hard to make an informed judgement on a story like this without all the information. The news report is vastly different than the information on the company website. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

[Ascham1]

This is a tough issue the guy is splitting hairs over the selling of his parts. I hope he holds out but most likely will cave if they push real hard.

[knkali]

I am on the side of the businessman this time. It is NOT very easy to turn an 80% lower into a functioning firearm. You have to have the correct skills and equipment. per BATFE regs 80% lowers are legal or at least quasi-legal. It is in my opinion another vast overreach by a jack-booted agency.


FuukknA

[knkali]

This is a tough issue the guy is splitting hairs over the selling of his parts. I hope he holds out but most likely will cave if they push real hard.


He will roll over. He doesn't have enough money not to.

[knkali]

By the letter of the law, he's definitely on the fringe. It's legal to sell an 80% lower.






None of this is right. It's all 2A infringement. So, you gotta stand up or sit down. Each person has to decide that based on what's going on in their life and other responsibilities. I guess this guy has that ability in life right now. More power to him!
FuukknA

[muggsy]

The lower is the only part that has a serial number and it's the only part that the ATF considers to be a gun. If he's selling 80% finished lowers within his own state he isn't breaking the law, because he isn't selling a gun. If that's in fact the case they have no right to his customer list. It pays to know the law.

[muggsy]

I am on the side of the businessman this time. It is NOT very easy to turn an 80% lower into a functioning firearm. You have to have the correct skills and equipment. per BATFE regs 80% lowers are legal or at least quasi-legal. It is in my opinion another vast overreach by a jack-booted agency.

Basically all you need is a drill press and a few drills to complete the machining process. Check out the videos on You Tube. It's so easy even Jocko could do it. :)

[muggsy]

He will roll over. He doesn't have enough money not to.

Can you say pro bono?

[knkali]

Can you say pro bono?


Can you say losing everything you own, freezing of bank accounts, spending more time in court than making money to feed yourself and pay rent ect. Possible IRS audit on top of everything.

[muggsy]

It all depends on how strongly he believes in his position. Some of us are willing to sacrifice our lives for our beliefs and freedoms. Where do you stand?

[knkali]

It all depends on how strongly he believes in his position. Some of us are willing to sacrifice our lives for our beliefs and freedoms. Where do you stand?



My stance on this matter is that whatever he does it wont mean jacksheet. The genie is out of the bottle. He and I live in the land of the doj approved list, microstamping, bullet buttons, 10 rnd mag cap, a waiting period before picking up your weapon, some places lead ammo is banned, and proposed legislation for taxing on ammo and no more internet sales of ammo as well as a max amount of ammo you can purchase. And as of now, 80% lowers are now illegal. I have said it before, the Kalifornia gun war is over. Save yourselves. This cancer can and will spread.

[Longitude Zero]

Basically all you need is a drill press and a few drills to complete the machining process. Check out the videos on You Tube. It's so easy even Jocko could do it. :)


Typically overstated. I have a friend who is a master machinist with over 40 years in the biz. He tells me it is possible but not just any old fool, like internet gunboard faux officianados, can do.

[muggsy]

I guess that I'm not just any old fool. If you can't do it I'm sure that your machinist friend can. How difficult is this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooDe2Ovkh8I

[muggsy]

My stance on this matter is that whatever he does it wont mean jacksheet. The genie is out of the bottle. He and I live in the land of the doj approved list, microstamping, bullet buttons, 10 rnd mag cap, a waiting period before picking up your weapon, some places lead ammo is banned, and proposed legislation for taxing on ammo and no more internet sales of ammo as well as a max amount of ammo you can purchase. And as of now, 80% lowers are now illegal. I have said it before, the Kalifornia gun war is over. Save yourselves. This cancer can and will spread.

What Genie is out of what bottle? The ATF is violating the law. An 80% lower is not a gun. The ATF has no jurisdiction. This is a federal case and the State of California shouldn't even be involved. It is perfectly legal to build and sell 80% lowers. It is perfectly legal to build a gun for your own use. It is illegal to sell a gun that you build for your own use that has no serial number.

[knkali]

What Genie is out of what bottle? The ATF is violating the law. An 80% lower is not a gun. The ATF has no jurisdiction. This is a federal case and the State of California shouldn't even involved. It is perfectly legal to build and sell 80% lowers. It is perfectly legal to build a gun for your own use. It is illegal to sell a gun that you build for your own use that has no serial number.


yep to all of that.

[Ugly_Dog]

"
I don’t believe for a minute that this is an issue of did Dimitri do anything illegal, or arrests would have been made, but I do believe it’s an issue of control. I think the ATF has nothing and is going in his computers hoping he didn’t cross his t’s and dot his i’s, in hopes of closing his doors. I believe the current government wants to know who ownes what firearms for a possible later forced confiscation of firearms.This case could very possibly become precedence for future cases on whether one can teach others to build non-serial numbered firearms, as of right now it is legal. I think some in government want to put a stop to this, but for right now the ATF taking these drastic measures of raiding Ares Armor, is only to get the names of those who wish to remain anonymous, the government should be in support of their privacy and should be appalled at the actions of those who raided Ares Armor " Dan N.

[Longitude Zero]

^^^TRUE^^^


In fact the vast majority of BATFE enforcement action is precisely this...paperwork anomalies.

[knkali]

"
I don’t believe for a minute that this is an issue of did Dimitri do anything illegal, or arrests would have been made, but I do believe it’s an issue of control. I think the ATF has nothing and is going in his computers hoping he didn’t cross his t’s and dot his i’s, in hopes of closing his doors. I believe the current government wants to know who ownes what firearms for a possible later forced confiscation of firearms.This case could very possibly become precedence for future cases on whether one can teach others to build non-serial numbered firearms, as of right now it is legal. I think some in government want to put a stop to this, but for right now the ATF taking these drastic measures of raiding Ares Armor, is only to get the names of those who wish to remain anonymous, the government should be in support of their privacy and should be appalled at the actions of those who raided Ares Armor " Dan N.

yep, then they will outlaw aluminum billet blocks that are roughtly the size of a lower receiver, then drill presses and then......