Another "What if" question

[Allen]

I've had my CC permit for probably 10-12 years but just recently started trying to carry on a daily basis, considering all the rif/raf that seems to be occuping our stores and streets nowadays.

I've gotten some real good responses from the Forum in the past concerning questions on just how would I act in case of a threat. My "what if" question now is, and I either read or heard about this on TV (but who can remember with all the scary news lately). If stopped at a station or store and 2 questionalbe characters approached you carrying knives would you draw and drop them both, draw and if they stopped their approach or dropped the knives would you let them leave - which they probably would and you can't shoot a thug in the back, or try to call the cops before they'd run?

My first thought was to draw and drop them in their tracks but figured that would just cause lots of unnecessary time consuming court appearances. If you'd let them leave there's a good chance it would really make them mad and they'd be laying for you another time.

If I remember the story, the victum just stood back while they car jacked his vehicle and were never caught. With all the crap in the news I try to think "what would I have done, or what should the victum have done".

With so many of the laws favoring the criminal, and all the lawyers that are ready and willing to defend the criminal, it's sure hard to know just what to do.

[trooplewis]

I think if it was just a random encounter, you would not be in danger of them pursuing you in the future. Most idiots dumb enough to display a knife in a threatening manner while in a public place (and likely being videotaped) aren't smart enough to track you down later. And for what reason? You let them live...I don't think they would be pissed about that. Unless they were close enough that you were in imminent danger, show the business end of the pistol to them and let them decide if they are dumb enough to bring a knife to a gunfight.

Besides that, they would probably assume that you are a LEO, and most criminals know that messing with one cop means messing with all of them.

[RainingAgain]

I've had my CC permit for probably 10-12 years but just recently started trying to carry on a daily basis, considering all the rif/raf that seems to be occuping our stores and streets nowadays.

I've gotten some real good responses from the Forum in the past concerning questions on just how would I act in case of a threat. My "what if" question now is, and I either read or heard about this on TV (but who can remember with all the scary news lately). If stopped at a station or store and 2 questionalbe characters approached you carrying knives would you draw and drop them both, draw and if they stopped their approach or dropped the knives would you let them leave - which they probably would and you can't shoot a thug in the back, or try to call the cops before they'd run?

My first thought was to draw and drop them in their tracks but figured that would just cause lots of unnecessary time consuming court appearances. If you'd let them leave there's a good chance it would really make them mad and they'd be laying for you another time.

If I remember the story, the victum just stood back while they car jacked his vehicle and were never caught. With all the crap in the news I try to think "what would I have done, or what should the victum have done".

With so many of the laws favoring the criminal, and all the lawyers that are ready and willing to defend the criminal, it's sure hard to know just what to do.If safely possible, run like hell. Otherwise, First try to move to get something between you and them even it's a shopping cart. At the same time bark an order to stay back while moving to line them up so it is easier to shoot them both if they are stupid. You don't want them coming at you from two flanking directions.

The hard call is how soon to show your weapon. Your age, ability, their ages, your State Laws on brandishing or SYG and a host of factors, including bystanders in the line of fire. If it looks clearly like a simple 'grab and go' type car jacking, don't show a weapon, it could initiate a hail of bullets if they panic. Just watch them drive away and call your auto insurer.

Never ever let them take you in your car (or theirs) to another location. Start shooting.

[Selcouth]

In a situation like this I would draw my gun, if they continued approaching then yes I would fire. I would also hope there would be a surveillance camera recording the whole event. Now if someone was stealing my car then I would let them take it. I'm not about to shoot and kill someone over 15-20K when my car is going to be replaced by insurance. Texas law only allows me to kill someone when the means is justified and I feel threatened for my life. But the game changer in that situation is if they came at me with an object that could kill me. Then the situation changes into a self defense act.

[RainingAgain]

In a situation like this I would draw my gun, if they continued approaching then yes I would fire. I would also hope there would be a surveillance camera recording the whole event. Now if someone was stealing my car then I would let them take it. I'm not about to shoot and kill someone over 15-20K when my car is going to be replaced by insurance. Texas law only allows me to kill someone when the means is justified and I feel threatened for my life. But the game changer in that situation is if they came at me with an object that could kill me. Then the situation changes into a self defense act.

I thought I read that Texas allowed you to shoot at a person fleeing with your car. We can't here so it caught my eye.

[WMac19]

I would draw with the immediate intent to fire. Of course, if they turn to run, I'd hope that would register in time. 21' has been determined to be the minimum zone of safety where if someone charged you with a knife, while back pedalling, you could effectively draw and fire two rounds with a good chance of avoiding injury yourself.

Some people get caught in like a rock/paper/scissors thought pattern assuming a gun beats a knife. A person can close at that distance in a second. I'd treat their approach very similarly as if they had guns.

[RainingAgain]

I would draw with the immediate intent to fire. Of course, if they turn to run, I'd hope that would register in time. 21' has been determined to be the minimum zone of safety where if someone charged you with a knife, while back pedalling, you could effectively draw and fire two rounds with a good chance of avoiding injury yourself.

Some people get caught in like a rock/paper/scissors thought pattern assuming a gun beats a knife. A person can close at that distance in a second. I'd treat their approach very similarly as if they had guns.

Good response. I like your rock/paper/scissors analogy

[Selcouth]

I thought I read that Texas allowed you to shoot at a person fleeing with your car. We can't here so it caught my eye.

We can, but look at #3A

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

If my car is stolen it may not be recovered, but it can be replaced with insurance. I'm not about to go before a jury only for the DA to repeatedly tell them that I put a value on human life. That's more of a personal decision though, others may feel differently.

[muggsy]

No one is going to draw a knife at a distance. You aren't going to see the knifes until they are on top of you. Don't allow them to get that close. Alter your route to avoid them. This is what's known as situational awareness. Failing that armed force meets armed force.

[berettabone]

I think that you have to do everything in your power to avoid the confrontation.......It's when you have NO other choice, then the firearm comes out. In my state, we have the castle doctrine, but no stand your ground. When you think about it, standing your ground could be very foolish indeed. Personally, as soon as I saw knives, and they started approaching, since I carry an MK9............I would rather immediately put four rounds in one, and three in another, and have a good day. Even if it was just intimidation or a joke, I wouldn't consider either very funny. Unfortunately, the law here doesn't work like that. You must do EVERYTHING in your power to avoid first.

[Ascham1]

I think I would get in the car and lock the doors, while calling the police and cradling my gun.

[Bill K]

No one is going to draw a knife at a distance. You aren't going to see the knifes until they are on top of you. Don't allow them to get that close. Alter your route to avoid them. This is what's known as situational awareness. Failing that armed force meets armed force.

I've altered my route many times to avoid possible trouble and yet twice found myself facing the pointed end of a knife, faked out by a criminal using a very clever ruse. Many of these guys spend a lot of time practicing and honing their tactics.

[jeepster09]

A knife will often be more lethal than a gun at close range. I would show gun to them to hopefully stop threat and high tail it away; then call cops.

[WMac19]

No one is going to draw a knife at a distance. You aren't going to see the knifes until they are on top of you. Don't allow them to get that close. Alter your route to avoid them. This is what's known as situational awareness. Failing that armed force meets armed force.

The vast majority of the time, yes. But twice I saw a person display a knife from quite a distance. Once at a gas station while on patrol in the Bronx and the other in the playground area of a housing project, Bronx also. Both were robberies, both victims were stabbed/cut.

Being that I happened upon both incidents, I can only surmise that it happens more frequently than any of us would imagine. There's never any absolutes.

[Allen]

Thanks for all the very good ideas for survival. And speaking of letting go of your vehicle since it can be replaced by insurance, have very many of you out there had any experience with dealing with an insurance company for a vehicle replacement? My experience has only been with hail damage or a painted fender. What kind of reimbursement can usually be expected in case of no recovery?

I have a 1991 Honda with 76,000 miles on it and looking at the Used Car Price Guides on the Internet I find average retail prices ranging from $2,500 to $4,500 with a High Extreme Clean of almost $7,500. The Honda is extremely clean, we are the original owners, no smokers, no pets, no spots or stains on the upholstry anyplace, and only had someone in the back 4-5 times. With no recovery just wondering how hard it would be to convince the insurance company the condition of a vehicle.

[skiflydive]

Thanks for all the very good ideas for survival. And speaking of letting go of your vehicle since it can be replaced by insurance, have very many of you out there had any experience with dealing with an insurance company for a vehicle replacement? My experience has only been with hail damage or a painted fender. What kind of reimbursement can usually be expected in case of no recovery?

I have a 1991 Honda with 76,000 miles on it and looking at the Used Car Price Guides on the Internet I find average retail prices ranging from $2,500 to $4,500 with a High Extreme Clean of almost $7,500. The Honda is extremely clean, we are the original owners, no smokers, no pets, no spots or stains on the upholstry anyplace, and only had someone in the back 4-5 times. With no recovery just wondering how hard it would be to convince the insurance company the condition of a vehicle.

My experience is they have the money and their objective is to keep as much of it is possible.

[berettabone]

I don't think you'd get more than $1000 because of the age. It doesn't really matter how nice it is. You would probably have to play that " I'm not signing any release" game. Happened to my wife. Had an older 1984 Ford Tempo, in beautiful shape(as beautiful as a Tempo gets) and it gets plowed into by a drunk driver. The insurance co. wanted to pay $400 because of the age. It was a 90% car. It couldn't possibly be replaced, because you would never find one as nice. I told the wife, just leave it where they towed it, and let the tow and storage bills rack up. They kept calling, raising the $$$ offer a bit each time, in the mean time, the money clock is ticking. After 2 weeks, and numerous calls, I told the wife to agree to $1700, which still wasn't enough, but it was fair. It cost them more, then if they just would have been fair in the first place.

[muggsy]

I think that everyone has misinterpreted what I said. Allow me to reiterate. If they show a knife from a distance I'm going to try to avoid them. If I can't avoid them I'm going to draw my gun and shoot them multiple times. I don't give a rats ass if the law says that I have a duty to retreat. I'm 67 years old and would like to see 68. I didn't get to be 67 years old by allowing anyone to screw with me. I'll take my chances in court.

[jeepster09]

Thanks for all the very good ideas for survival. And speaking of letting go of your vehicle since it can be replaced by insurance, have very many of you out there had any experience with dealing with an insurance company for a vehicle replacement? My experience has only been with hail damage or a painted fender. What kind of reimbursement can usually be expected in case of no recovery?

I have a 1991 Honda with 76,000 miles on it and looking at the Used Car Price Guides on the Internet I find average retail prices ranging from $2,500 to $4,500 with a High Extreme Clean of almost $7,500. The Honda is extremely clean, we are the original owners, no smokers, no pets, no spots or stains on the upholstry anyplace, and only had someone in the back 4-5 times. With no recovery just wondering how hard it would be to convince the insurance company the condition of a vehicle.


Quite awhile back one of my kids totaled their mint condition Jeep Cherokee in a spin out on ice [no injuries] and insurance company only wanted to pay a $1000.00. That was not acceptable to me so I had to search all the local adds and find a COMPARABLE vehicle or 2 and show insurance company and tell them I wanted to replace vehicle with one of those. They stepped up and paid COMPARABLE price. So the answer is, don't just accept what they tell you prove your case and do your home work.

[b4uqzme]

I really like these "what if?" questions as they get me thinking it through. Yet no matter how much I prepare, I really don't know how I will respond until I get in a situation. All I know is my goal is to protect life, not property.