How accurate are you with your PM9?

[racuda]

I'm considering getting one, and wondered what kind of groups everyone gets. Also if you have Crimson Trace or other laser sights how did that tighten up your groups? One more thing, does your PM9 shoot to POA?

I get 3" groups (on a good day) at 10 yards with my XD9-sc and S&W MP340. The revolver has CT grips. Do you think I can improve on that with a PM9?

[jreXD9]

if you can get those kinds of groups with your xd9 you should have no problem with the PM9 groups. Mine aren't as good as yours but from my xd9sc (dearly departed) to my PM9, CW9 and CW45 the groups have been about the same.

[deadhead1971]

I went crimson trace about 1,000 rds ago. :)

The gun is very accurate. The trick is pulling/pressing/squeezing the trigger without jerking or moving the gun. I do jerk the gun a lot and have flyers.

But the last time out, I stuck some quarter size stick-on circles (NC Target black sticky dots), and was able to nail them at 25 to 30 feet with the CT. I don't think I could have done that with just the sights.

The PM9 has a totally different trigger feel (DAO) than the XD. Go to a shop and dry fire one and see. The good thing about the PM9 is that you can pocket carry it. The bad thing is that it has less rounds than the XD with its single stack magazine.

http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistols/444-accuracy-pm9.html

[kahrseye]

I like my PM9, am pretty accurate with it and love to pocket carry it. I think I'm more accurate with the PM45 though and like the way it shoots vs the PM9. However, pocket carry with the PM45 is more challenging. I've had one gun with a laser on it and didn't like it. I fear that one may become too dependent on the laser and of course just when you need it, it goes out on you. When I shoot my guns I use a 9 inch paper plate as a target. I'm not so concerned about 3 inch groups as I am just hitting that plate. Call it old guy syndrome....but if you put that plate on your chest and I can hit anywhere inside that plate, you're in trouble. My goal is to be able to hit my target at 7 yards or less (self defense distance). Just my two cents worth so take it for what it's worth.

[recoilguy]

A good shooter with a good gun will have good results. The PM 9 is a good gun. The CT laser is just a sight aid it does not make groups tighter. It may help you see better resulting in better groups. I know it does that for me. My eyes are a little less effective then they used to be.

The PM9 I shoot is pretty much right on and I like to shoot it.

RCG

[oldtex]

.... One more thing, does your PM9 shoot to POA?......



I just got my PM9 back from Kahr. They replaced the barrel and slide because of a peening problem. It had about 1800 rds on it when I sent it back. It had a tendency to shoot high (about 4-6" at 15yds with Win USA 115 gr ball ammo) pretty consistently throughout that 1800 rds.

I've put a little over 200 rds of 115 gr ball (with 0 malfunctions) through it since getting it back. I haven't checked carefully for POA-POI convergence, but it "seems" to be shooting high. I'm pretty confident that this isn't an operator error issue as I have no such problem with other handguns.

I'll do some structured POA-POI testing with my 147 gr Federal HST ammo soon. Based on previous experience, I expect it to shoot to a higher POI than the 115 ball ammo.

I have searched the web for taller front sights but haven't found any indication that any such thing for a Kahr exists. Anyone know of a taller than standard front sight for a PM9? Guess I could have the top of the rear sight shaved down a bit.

I am a fan of lasers on fighting guns for various reasons. The POA-POI disparity just adds one more reason IMO to add a laser to a fighting gun.

For whatever it's worth, I find the PM9 to be much easier to shoot fast and accurately than any of my .38 j-frames(all with standard fixed sights), whether alloy or all-stainless. This seems true whether I'm moving or stationary, or shooting two-handed, strong hand only or weak hand only.

[ripley16]

These two targets were the first rounds I fired with a new Kahr K9 that came with CT laser grips. If I recall, the distance was 7 or more yards, but not more than 12 yards.
The top target is a group fired with the sights.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/Pistols/Kahr/newK9005.jpg

The second group was fired with the laser on and I was sighting only with the laser and not using the sights.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/Pistols/Kahr/newK9004-1.jpg

As you can see the groups are pretty close. A laser won't necessarily make you more accurate, but they do allow for a very good unaimed shot, say from the hip or elbow height.

[DKD]

I too just shot my PM9 for the first time yesterday. Only fired (60) round thus far with zero issues with FMJ or Hollow Points. Since the grip is quite small my pinky finger was sort of unsupported under the magazine. I settled down and got a few decent groups at 7 yards rapid fire in the 2 1/2" range once I got use to it. I do fire my PM45 better since it fits my hands perfectly, but it is slightly larger than the PM9 and thus more difficult to pocket carry.
The PM9 is more capable than the shooter and does and will require practise or should I say perfect practise to remain totally proficient.
So far I love the gun...hell I love them both....my favorite carry pieces and my daily companions.

[jocko]

I'm considering getting one, and wondered what kind of groups everyone gets. Also if you have Crimson Trace or other laser sights how did that tighten up your groups? One more thing, does your PM9 shoot to POA?

I get 3" groups (on a good day) at 10 yards with my XD9-sc and S&W MP340. The revolver has CT grips. Do you think I can improve on that with a PM9?

3" groupls at 10 yards with PM9, probalby not, IMO.

[Frankhenrylee]

Got a PM40, no problem dumping mags into centermass at 10yds. Headshots are easy when taking my time. You'll be surprised at how easy Kahr's are to shoot. I was reluctant at first going with the .40 in such a small gun, but I also wanted good knock down power with so few rounds to carry. My wife is about 100lbs. and shoots it with no problem. Also, no malfunctions to date.

[racuda]

Thanks for all the replies. I should mention that I do have a Kahr P380 (which I may sell if I get a PPM9). Can I expect a PM9 trigger to feel similar to the P380?


oldtex mentioned that his PM9 shoots high. Does anyone else have POI issues? I know that my P380 shoots low and I've heard others say the same about the 380, so I wondered if the same models consistently perform the same.

[Bawanna]

Thanks for all the replies. I should mention that I do have a Kahr P380 (which I may sell if I get a PPM9). Can I expect a PM9 trigger to feel similar to the P380?


oldtex mentioned that his PM9 shoots high. Does anyone else have POI issues? I know that my P380 shoots low and I've heard others say the same about the 380, so I wondered if the same models consistently perform the same.

The trigger on the PM9 will be very very similar if not identical to your 380. I've heard a few here mentioning that their Kahrs shoot high or low but I don't think its a given pandemic thing, seems to be just a few. There's another thread where we were trying to figure out if maybe the wrong sights got installed. It seems the majority shoot right where they look. As popular as the PM9 is I have little doubt you'll be very happy with it. And going from 380 to 9, well that's just gotta be a good thing.

[deadhead1971]

The only POI issue I have is that the bullets seem laser guided to the red dot. :)

I have the red dot aligned and centered with the gun's front and rear sight so that tells me it's shooting straight.

When I first started shooting the PM9, I was griping because I was hitting everything 3" left of POA. My first reaction was the sights are off, but with patience and a lot of ammo, I am able to hit pretty much dead center POA.

[jocko]

snap caps, my friend will tell u alot about how the sights are doing or how the shooter is doing.

If your low and left, ur probalby a right hand shooter. Kahr sights their guns in with 124 grain ammo and I think it is at 15 yards, so I have been told. One might have to change his sight picture a tad for up and downs, but the rear sight is moveable for right and left corrections, although very hard to move on kahrs BUT IT WILL MOVE..

I have found that POA shooting with these little kahrs is very good indeed and faster than trignt o line the sights up, for in a defense situation, that scenario is just not going to happen. Get good at 7 yards with POA shooting, forget about trying toput them in the same hole, as again ur not gonna even get close to doing that in a defense situation. Get your trigger control down to a no thought process and concentrate on that front sight only and all the rest will fall in place as your pulling up your gun. Again practice close. Kahrs are IMO "hand shaking" guns.

Practice with some snap caps in your magazines, they will show ur shooting errors faster than anything. When we anticiapte the shot "thing" that is when spreads start to show up and we tend to blame the gun, for the gun cannot talk back. Also think about when your shots started to go to hell to. 50 rounds down range, 100, 150. cold be shooter gertting tired, grip changing or twisting in ones hand. all things that we really don't see happening for we are concetrating on the target and sights etc. Just my 2 cent shere but 99.995% of the time it is not the gun or the improper height of the sights.

I have 28,900 rounds through my pM9 and I have said it man times on here, I am not a good shot and my groups at best at 7 yards are normally 3 " Plus Plus, but for me every shot is inside the FBI "Q" silhouette target and that tells me I have put all my shots in the critical area for the BG to be really pissed.
When I want to shoot 2" groups I grab my tuned G19 with dawson fiber optic adjustable sights and I can sit there and do it all day long at 7 yards, actually gets boring with my G19, where as my PM9 is still giving me a challenge to succeed.

Indeed if a gun could talk, it would help all of us. Probably my PM9 would by now be telling me to sell it and let a GOOD SHOOTER own it.

[Bawanna]

snap caps, my friend will tell u alot about how the sights are doing or how the shooter is doing.

If your low and left, ur probalby a right hand shooter. Kahr sights their guns in with 124 grain ammo and I think it is at 15 yards, so I have been told. One might have to change his sight picture a tad for up and downs, but the rear sight is moveable for right and left corrections, although very hard to move on kahrs BUT IT WILL MOVE..

I have found that POA shooting with these little kahrs is very good indeed and faster than trignt o line the sights up, for in a defense situation, that scenario is just not going to happen. Get good at 7 yards with POA shooting, forget about trying toput them in the same hole, as again ur not gonna even get close to doing that in a defense situation. Get your trigger control down to a no thought process and concentrate on that front sight only and all the rest will fall in place as your pulling up your gun. Again practice close. Kahrs are IMO "hand shaking" guns.

Practice with some snap caps in your magazines, they will show ur shooting errors faster than anything. When we anticiapte the shot "thing" that is when spreads start to show up and we tend to blame the gun, for the gun cannot talk back. Also think about when your shots started to go to hell to. 50 rounds down range, 100, 150. cold be shooter gertting tired, grip changing or twisting in ones hand. all things that we really don't see happening for we are concetrating on the target and sights etc. Just my 2 cent shere but 99.995% of the time it is not the gun or the improper height of the sights.

I have 28,900 rounds through my pM9 and I have said it man times on here, I am not a good shot and my groups at best at 7 yards are normally 3 " Plus Plus, but for me every shot is inside the FBI "Q" silhouette target and that tells me I have put all my shots in the critical area for the BG to be really pissed.
When I want to shoot 2" groups I grab my tuned G19 with dawson fiber optic adjustable sights and I can sit there and do it all day long at 7 yards, actually gets boring with my G19, where as my PM9 is still giving me a challenge to succeed.

Indeed if a gun could talk, it would help all of us. Probably my PM9 would by now be telling me to sell it and let a GOOD SHOOTER own it.

Gosh darn, thought there was a chance of me owning that highly modified and tricked out although well broken in PM9 till you added that GOOD SHOOTER bit. So much for that afternoon day dream huh?

[DKD]

Well Bawanna, I recon so......

[GOOFA]

Kahr sights their guns in with 124 grain ammo and I think it is at 15 yards, so I have been told. .

Hello jocko... I spoke to our mutual friend at Kahr about this a month ago and was told that all their testing was done at 30 feet. That makes good sense to me seeing that they're in the business of mfg mostly pistols for concealment and self defense.

[wyntrout]

Didja get any more info about the test firing? Just curious... standing, seated, using rest or machine rest? Inquiring minds want to know.
Wynn:D

[jocko]

Hello jocko... I spoke to our mutual friend at Kahr about this a month ago and was told that all their testing was done at 30 feet. That makes good sense to me seeing that they're in the business of mfg mostly pistols for concealment and self defense.

more sense, Have forgotten who told me that even, but I WAS CLOSE:D:D and we know that counts alot in horse shoes and hand grenades:behindsofa:

[racuda]

Kahr sights their guns in with 124 grain ammo and I think it is at 15 yards, so I have been told.


124 grain? Thats perfect because I just bought 500 rounds of that Swiss ammo in the orange box at Walmart. It is 124 gr. They lowered the price on it to $12.97 per box.

I bought it for the PM9 I had my eye on because it is good, really clean ammo. But alas, my plans to acquire a PM9 will be delayed. As of today Buds is out of stock on the one with night sights. :(

[jocko]

124 grain? Thats perfect because I just bought 500 rounds of that Swiss ammo in the orange box at Walmart. It is 124 gr. They lowered the price on it to $12.97 per box.

I bought it for the PM9 I had my eye on because it is good, really clean ammo. But alas, my plans to acquire a PM9 will be delayed. As of today Buds is out of stock on the one with night sights. :(

$12.97 per box of 50 or 100. One can buy WWB 100 pak at wal mart for $23.50 at most any wal mart when they have it in stock, is is 115 grain though but for range fodder you just can't beat it. Our wal mart never has any of that off brand ammo on sale or ever in stock even. It it ai't WWB, then they have nothing..:7:

[arizona98tj]

The top of the target from a practice session of "failure to stop" drills.......two COM, 1 to the head. I'm comfortable with my PM9. It's doesn't compare to the full size 9mm or 45ACP XDs that usually do range time with....but then again, it doesn't have to. ;)

http://www.stu-offroad.com/firearms/pm9/pm9-14.jpg

[Bawanna]

The top of the target from a practice session of "failure to stop" drills.......two COM, 1 to the head. I'm comfortable with my PM9. It's doesn't compare to the full size 9mm or 45ACP XDs that usually do range time with....but then again, it doesn't have to. ;)

http://www.stu-offroad.com/firearms/pm9/pm9-14.jpg

That picture spoke a couple thousand words. Nice shooting arizona.

[GOOFA]

Wynn... When tested they use a bench rest @ 30ft.

[wyntrout]

Thanks, Goofa. I was wondering. And Arizona, that's great shooting! These guns are great for "snap" shooting or rapid followups. I don't spend a lot of time aiming... mostly pointing, especially after the first shot. of course, my "groups" are a bit larger, but I think they would cause the BG a lot of discomfort. Depending on how many BG's and circumstances, I want to make sure the BG is down or going there, and ammo is cheap.
Wynn:D

[recoilguy]

AZ that is some nice shooting. I love a raged hole in a target!

RCG

[Jeremiah/Az]

The PM9 & the P380 will both shoot 3" groups at 7 yds. easily. After shooting them quite a lot, I have found that I can feel the trigger just before it is going to fire. I can take up the slack to that point & then fire much more accurately. Of course, this could not be done in a self defense situation, but the accuracy is there.

[Copper&Black]

4" target @ 30'

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/Target.jpg

[wyntrout]

Nice shooting! I have targets like that, but that's after 50 shots and a "few" are sprinkled around the target.
I would love to shoot at silhouettes or gongs or something with immediate feedback in the form of movement or sound. Paper sure gets old, but it's cheap. I've started using paper plates and changing them is easy... plus you can use a Sharpie or something to annotate them.
Wynn:D

[jocko]

4" target @ 30'

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/Target.jpg

I'm jealous:(

[jlottmc]

That's about right with those groups. Kahr will produce some tiny ones, but in the end it's how the weapon shoots in YOUR hands. I've taken my P45 and put nice little groups at ranges from contact to 25 yards, and as long as I do my part the pistol will shoot better than I do. BTW Wynn do you spend a lot of time at www.verydemotivational.com? Those posters sure do look familiar.

[arizona98tj]

AZ that is some nice shooting. I love a raged hole in a target!

RCG

It's certainly a good feeling when you wrap up a range session like that. :D

As a member of Front Sight, a take a couple of trips each year for training classes. One of these trips, after purchasing a lot more mags, I'll try the defensive handgun course using the PM9. I usually shoot it using either my XD45c or XD9. It should be very interesting with the PM9. The qualification test puts you at 25 yds for the farthest shot. Luckily we won't have to do head shots at that distance. ;)

[Bigcube]

I could use more practice. This was from today, 50 rounds @ 10 yards, some of it faster shooting. :o
http://www.bigcube.org/kt/KahrPM9Target.jpg

[Bawanna]

I could use more practice. This was from today, 50 rounds @ 10 yards, some of it faster shooting. :o
http://www.bigcube.org/kt/KahrPM9Target.jpg

Well I'm not offering my back to hang the target on. I'd say your putting them in there pretty fine especially at 10 yards. That's out there.

[racuda]

Back at the beginning of this thread I said I was considering getting a PM9. Well, I've decided, and ordered one with the CT. It should be here in a couple of days. Then I can answer my own question, "how accurate are you with your PM9?"

Bigcube and arizona98tj and have given me something to shoot for, so to speak.

[deadhead1971]

Kahr sells a base plate for the flush 6 rd magazine. I like it. http://www.kahrshop.com/cgi-bin/itemdetail.asp?itmid=2068 Polymer Magazine Base Kit

See here--

[hickok45]

Jeremiah is correct; I find that keeping rounds on a 3" dot at 7 yards is very doable, even without taking forever to aim. This is basically what I did with the little P380 in an article I just wrote for Florida CWL Magazine.

I just could not bring myself to shooting and measuring little groups carefully with every type of ammo. This stuff just doesn't tell me much other than how the author shot on that particular day, or at least how he "says" he shot. And if the gun is locked in a Ransom Rest, that doesn't tell me anything very useful either.

Just my opinion, but I think I can't be all that unusual in this.

[jlottmc]

Sir, you are correct. I have long believed that while the mechanical accuracy of a gun is something that should be addressed, it is not the most important element of a good defensive weapon. If we were talking about bench rest or bulls eye stuff maybe a stronger point, but reliability is key for a defensive pistol. The fact that consistency (accuracy) plays a role in that as well, shows the positives of the design. I think that people confuse the consistency for accuracy, and that because that is a measurable trait it gets over magnified in their minds. Things like the overall feel, and lack of failures can't be measured that well, and tend to be downplayed. I agree also that especially on the internet that people have a tendency to exaggerate their results for that day and in general as well. Hickok, you hit that one out of the park. BTW how much time do you spend on your range to produce those wonderful results?

[racuda]

Jeremiah is correct; I find that keeping rounds on a 3" dot at 7 yards is very doable, even without taking forever to aim. This is basically what I did with the little P380 in an article I just wrote for Florida CWL Magazine.

I just could not bring myself to shooting and measuring little groups carefully with every type of ammo. This stuff just doesn't tell me much other than how the author shot on that particular day, or at least how he "says" he shot. And if the gun is locked in a Ransom Rest, that doesn't tell me anything very useful either.

Just my opinion, but I think I can't be all that unusual in this.

hickock45, I've seen you hit a gong at 230 yards! Your standards for accuracy may be somewhat different than for us mere mortals!

I'm sure that the PM9 is more than sufficiently accurate for a defensive weapon. The thing is, shooting is fun, so I like to push the limits (not to 230 yards yet!).

[deadhead1971]

It's all in the trigger finger. It took me over 1,000 rds to half-way figure out the trigger pull.

[jocko]

Jeremiah is correct; I find that keeping rounds on a 3" dot at 7 yards is very doable, even without taking forever to aim. This is basically what I did with the little P380 in an article I just wrote for Florida CWL Magazine.

I just could not bring myself to shooting and measuring little groups carefully with every type of ammo. This stuff just doesn't tell me much other than how the author shot on that particular day, or at least how he "says" he shot. And if the gun is locked in a Ransom Rest, that doesn't tell me anything very useful either.

Just my opinion, but I think I can't be all that unusual in this.

3" at 7 yards very doable, even for an ol man like me. get me out to 15 yards with my PM9 and I am in deep trouble but one will for see far more troubles at 7 yards and under than ever at 15 yards. Ihave shot alot of guns over my 48 years and I honestly for some damn reason just love to shoot my PM9 more than any gun I have ever owned, certainly not that I can shoot 2" groups either..