.380 Carry Ammo Test

[getsome]

Found this test of modern .380 defense ammo for those of you who CCW a .380 pistol...I have seen this before and if it was previously posted please forgive me but I found it pretty well done and surprising because some of the most popular brands didn't make the cut right off the bat....

Give it a look if you are looking for carry ammo for your P380 or other micro pistols...

http://shootingthebull.net/blog/final-results-of-the-380-acp-ammo-quest/

[wyntrout]

Yes, it has been listed recently, but I watched it again, too.

Notice that he tested only STANDARD pressure loads. The Kahr .380's can handle +P, so some of those "marginal" loads probably penetrate a bit more at +P velocities... around 100+ fps than standard. I use the Gold Dots by Buffalo Bore, but am switching to Underwood's +P 90-gr Gold Dots because BB hasn't been able to continue using GD's.

Wynn:)

[Pointblank]

I don't think there is a SAAMI standard for +P in .380 acp, so it's just too risky.

[muggsy]

I am not the least bit concerned about over penetration. If you are standing behind the individual that I'm shooting then you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sorry about that. If I shoot I'm going to fire more than once. If I can't stop an assailant with three solid shots to the torso shame on me. Ball ammo has worked ever since the .380 was invented and it feeds the most reliably of all the ammunition available for the .380. Call me old school.

[sw66hiviz]

I am not the least bit concerned about over penetration. If you are standing behind the individual that I'm shooting then you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sorry about that.

That's a really sad statement and give CC a bad image.

[muggsy]

If you think that in a SHTF situation that you are going to be worried about anything other than your own behind you had better think again. This isn't the freakin movies cowboy. This is real life and death. If you aren't willing to take a life to save your own don't carry.

[jocko]

shoot a midget with a +P380 and u might get full plus penetration. shoot a fat slob like Muggsy and u get 6inches MAX. I would not worry alot about penetration as I woud jus thitting the fokker when I pull the trigger. U should dar well know ur range of confidence and theb consider when SHTF ta tur gonna be all over the target with ur rounds to Unless u have been there done that stuff, a shoot out is not a good thing, no matter if ur a cop or civilian. U canb obnly train so far ad then the adrenalin dump comes into play ad u have no real clue at that time what is gonna happen.

I am a frim believer that I take care of ol jocko and his family first and then after that I will analyze the situation and think not once but not twice but many times IF I REALLY WANT TO GETINVOLVED. every scenario presents itself differently,s oI am not gonna pretend one to anyone. COMMON SENSE rules. Whenu draw that gun, u best beprepared to use it and not worryt about penetration.

Most of all of my penetration was done in the back seat of my 57 dodge back 57 years ago. Just sayin.

Now for an important announcement. I like corbon 380 owerball +P. It is hot, it feeds so so nice in my P380. I doube if a 380 will over penetrate much either with any round, but if u gotta shoot someone, pick a fat person. Just sayin

[WMac19]

If you think that in a SHTF situation that you are going to be worried about anything other than your own behind you had better think again. This isn't the freakin movies cowboy. This is real life and death. If you aren't willing to take a life to save your own don't carry.

Now is not a SHTF situation, now is the time to make reasoned choices. As you stated, your choice is to hell with innocent bystanders. That's deplorable.

[kwh]

Ideal is penetration + expansion not one or the other. If one bullet does both and feeds well that is the best. Make the most informed decision possible. How many people carry lead round nose in their .38/357 revolvers for personal defense?

[muggsy]

In a SHTF situation I want ammo that I can count on to do the job. With hardball in the .380 you are almost guaranteed to get enough penetration. Hardball was all that was available for years and it served the purpose quite well. Are you going to hesitate to shoot, because you might miss and kill an innocent bystander? If you get into a shooting situation you are going to have tunnel vision. Your full attention will be on your assailant. Your hearing and fine motor skills are going on a holiday. In all probability you'll loose control of your bowels. Now tell me how concerned your going to be about innocent bystanders. This is the real world friend. If your going to carry a gun be prepared to use it.

[WMac19]

Yeah, I live in the real world. Carrying FMJ can be defended, your statements cannot.

[muggsy]

Yeah, I live in the real world. Carrying FMJ can be defended, your statements cannot.

That's your opinion and you are welcome to it.

[happypuppy]

There are some decent 380 loads as the YouTube series showed. They meet the specs and I don't need to take the chance of over penetrate by FMJ

just 'bout the action boss...

[muggsy]

.380 ammo test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soNdX36P-3E

[muggsy]

Understanding ballistic gel tests.

http://www.thebangswitch.com/understanding-ballistics-gel/

[muggsy]

There are some decent 380 loads as the YouTube series showed. They meet the specs and I don't need to take the chance of over penetrate by FMJ

just 'bout the action boss...

You might want to read the post on understanding ballistic gel tests. It might just change your mind. Twelve inches of penetration is the minimum recommended with 18" being considered ideal. You may not get 12" of penetration if the bullet strikes bone. I'm not a ballistics expert and never claimed to be one, but if there is going to be a margin of error I want that error to be on my side. There are no second place winners in a gun fight.

[Bawanna]

Civility check boys and girls. I haven't been looking at this thread as I don't have a 380. Dereliction of duty on my part.

Both sides have made their case, lets move on.

Any more ugly we pull the plug and drain the bath tub and no more rubber ducky, your the one, you make bath time so much fun.

Get the idea?

[muggsy]

Allow me to make one thing perfectly clear. I meant to offend no one. I simply presented the facts as I see them. The facts are there for anyone to evaluate, accept, or reject. I don't want to shoot anyone, either by accident, or on purpose. All that I am saying is that I intend to defend myself in the best possible manner if assaulted. Everyone is free to conduct themselves as they see fit. I'm not your judge.

[berettabone]

There must be more Glock owners visiting...............people are just so sensitive these days. If you want to shoot taconite pellets through your gun, so be it. If someone is going to harm me, I certainly won't be thinking about underpenetration, overpenetration, only one thing will be on my mind. If you think that FMJ ammo ALWAYS stays in the body, check it out.

[getsome]

Didn't mean to start no chit here I just thought the video was interesting in that most of the ammo I would have picked didn't meet the penetration test....I currently don't have a .380 but have owned several in the past and may again in the future....I have done some backyard tests using wet newspaper and several .380 loads from an LCP and I was impressed with how all of them performed and would definitely not want to stand in front of one...

Lets face it, all handgun ammo is underpowered and marginal at best when dealing with a large predator who may be hyped up on meth or under an adrenaline rush and even if shot multiple times and mortally wounded may still run a great distance before bleeding out and falling over unconscious....Even a direct head shot may not instantly stop a person and the only instant stop is a shot to the spinal cord which severs it and stops muscle movement below the break....

In a .380 the best load may be a couple of modern hollow points that will reliably feed with a FMJ or two between them....A .380 is a decent load and gets a lot of bad rep as being a pip squeak pea shooter but from bad breth distance a couple of .380 rounds to the chest or face should get the BG to reconsider what they were doing and give you time to get away and call 911...Carring a .380 for CCW is a choice many make and it's a good one because they WILL carry something small every day and have it when God Forbid they need it.....Like they say, a .380 in the pocket beats a .44 a home in the drawer every time....

[muggsy]

Full metal jacket and hollow point bullets don't always stay in the body. To me it isn't a concern. Stopping an attack is foremost in my mind. I'm going to use what I think is best toward accomplishing that goal. I favor penetration over expansion in the .380 Auto. I run hollow points in my 9MM.

[wyntrout]

Advocating ONLY FMJ bullets for .380 defensive loads is like choosing field point arrows over broad point and multi-bladed arrowheads when hunting anything, especially dangerous predators.

FMJ bullets deflect, tumble, and slip through the tissue with little damage... usually leaving neat holes with little bleeding. Modern JHP with at least the recommended velocity do a great job of upsetting and becoming nasty instruments of destruction... causing more trauma and transferring more energy to the target.

I would add that most commonly used .38 ammo, JHP OR lead hollow points, don't achieve enough velocity to expand when they are fired from a 2" OR LESS .38/.357 snubbie... even +P loads. These loads typically perform as FMJ and over penetrate with little deformation of the bullet. .357 magnum loads may do better... some, anyhow, if they reach enough velocity, but most of the powder is burned outside the barrel, giving too little push to the bullet in so short a barrel.

The FMJ that miss or pass through the target also bounce and ricochet until they find something that absorbs enough energy... possibly causing "collateral damage".

The link re-posted by Getsome shows a comprehensive test... not one each of FMJ and JHP as in the "test" posted by Muggsy.

One can choose from the comprehensive test 4 or 5 possible rounds to be tested in his/her own weapon. You must consider barrel length and real velocities obtained from your pistol, as well as whether or not the ammo functions well in your own pistol.

Remember, though, that the comprehensive test was using ONLY standard pressure and maybe inadequate for SHORT barrels. I use +P for my defensive ammo... proven bonded JHP. +P usually adds 100 fps or more to make sure the bullet reaches enough velocity in shorter barrels to achieve the desired expansion and penetration.

Some of Bruce/ljutic's testing has shown that shooting into bare gelatin can give misleading results. Most potential targets wear AT LEAST a T-shirt and he has found that adding a layer or two of T-shirt material can really change penetration and expansion... sometimes favorably, but sometimes not.

I don't anticipate encountering any water-filled milk jugs or bare gelatin blocks attacking me, and I haven't any area to shoot other than my local indoor range, so I don't "worry" about trying to prove something to myself with such "tests".

Not necessarily JMHO.

Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Even a 22 short is gonna ruin a persons day.

To the majority of us here we are not pursuers as in cops. We shoot to stop somebody else from hurting us or others. Granted one well placed shot from a proper 45 that ends the threat permanently is the best scenario. But unless it's a determined hyped up dirt bag on crack even a FMJ 25 will most likely change his itinerary.

We've all seen the hit / miss statistics with trained professionals under pressure and real life scenarios. I surmise we should focus primarily on being able to hit the threat. In most situations which would require us shooting I also suspect there wouldn't be a lot of bystanders. Thugs don't like to work crowds much.

At any rate if any of you are around when the bad thing happens to me, best try to get behind something hard, I'll most likely miss the dirtbag but I'll keep trying long as I can.

[jocko]

Full metal jacket and hollow point bullets don't always stay in the body. To me it isn't a concern. Stopping an attack is foremost in my mind. I'm going to use what I think is best toward accomplishing that goal. I favor penetration over expansion in the .380 Auto. I run hollow points in my 9MM.

indeed penetration has always been ol jocko's fortee. Just sayin

[100percent]

I have been loading 110 gr SWC ammo for 380 in my LCP and PPK Mostly for practice but if it is in the gun on the street then so be it. I figure that a 380 is the slowest lightest 35 caliber ammo. To blunt the penetration with expanding bullets is going to create more of a surface wound but will it get to vital organs?

A scenario might be, your round passes through the arm of an attacker. If they are attacking they likely will have their arms out toward you. So it goes through shirt sleeve, arm muscle, arm fat and then perhaps bone. Back out of the arm through the sleeve again and into their shirt. where it hits another 2" of fat before it goes into the muscle tissure or rib cage and so on. If it travels 6" through an arm before it even arrives at their outer wear. it well could not do enough wih some folks to end a fight.

I have an image of doing a mag dump without waiting around to verify which bullet is doing the stop.

[jocko]

yup right: to many scenario's. They are like Pretending etc. My scenario goes sumpin like this. I wil more than likely take a good beating before I will draw my gun and shoot u, BUT fokk with my family directly and I will do the time if necessary for I will shoot u and never look back. Hell I am 70 they can't hurt me in prison to much longer. I azm not a macho person, never was, certinly never a Rambo either. It only takes a second to shoot somone but it could be a lifetime of pain after that. Just sayin.
Willthe 380 do the job??It certainly will,take the 380 ammo of today vs the 380 ammo of just 15 years agao and it is a whole world of difference. Anutter reason why we are seein so many 380 semi'son the market today. If my PMJ9 could not go where my P380 oncedid,I would indeed carry my P380. 9mmtrumps a 380 any day.

[wyntrout]

Really! Emphatically you should fire until the attacker is no longer a threat.

It can be a fatal hesitation if you "pause" after each shot to see if that one did the job. Believe me the threat isn't going to stop and take notice of damage before continuing with the attack. Most likely, he won't notice lesser hits... even MORTAL wounds. Shock and adrenalin, along with determination... rage, drugs, or whatever, can keep a body going, even when mortally wounded. Even a guy with a knife can eviscerate you after being hit with multiple mortal wounds. It might take a hit on the central nervous system or a crippling upper leg or joint injury to stop his locomotion.

Wynn:)

[Bill K]

Yeah, this is scary stuff. So much has to go right to save the day and so little need go wrong to ruin it. Also, in many if not most instances of SD we're starting from behind the the curve.

[Bawanna]

Yeah, this is scary stuff. So much has to go right to save the day and so little need go wrong to ruin it. Also, in many if not most instances of SD we're starting from behind the the curve.

Nearly always behind the curve. Few can predict the dastardly acts of a neer do well before the act begins.

[muggsy]

Ball ammo only makes neat little round holes with straight on shots in ballistic Gel. Any bullet that tumbles creates a nasty wound channel. Any bullet that strikes bone or loses velocity rapidly loses rotational stability will tumble. Military .223 ammo is devastatingly effective because it tumbles. The single most important factor is penetration. The more penetration the more tissue damage. I don't advocate that anyone use ball ammo in their .380. I'm only telling you what I use in my .380 and why. In a fire fight I'm not concerned with so called "collateral damage". I'm only concerned about my own survival.

[jocko]

whats inviserate mean? Jusst sayin

[jocko]

Ball ammo only makes neat little round holes with straight on shots in ballistic Gel. Any bullet that tumbles creates a nasty wound channel. Any bullet that strikes bone or loses velocity rapidly loses rotational stability will tumble. Military .223 ammo is devastatingly effective because it tumbles. The single most important factor is penetration. The more penetration the more tissue damage. I don't advocate that anyone use ball ammo in their .380. I'm only telling you what I use in my .380 and why. In a fire fight I'm not concerned with so called "collateral damage". I'm only concerned about my own survival.

ur brain tumbles alot to. Just sayin:amflag:

[wyntrout]

Eviscerate is where the abdomen is sliced/slashed open and the internal organs (guts) spill out. :eek: That can break your concentration... distract you a bit, but maybe the adrenalin rush and flight or fight reaction will allow you to finish off the threat before you seek medical attention... gather up your hanging innards and look for an aspirin... and a stiff shot of something to tide you over until medical help arrives... or you assume room temperature.

Wynn:D

[jocko]

oh, I thought it was supin suxual. not interested in inversarate then. tank u wyn. ur da man!!! Just sayin

[Bill K]

... or you assume room temperature.

Wynn:D

Assume room temperature... Hadn't heard that one but if I use it I'll change it up a bit to "assume ambient temperature". After all, not all the action takes place indoors. http://kahrtalk.com/images/editor/smilie.gif

[Bawanna]

Good point. I thought ambient was a pill you took to sleep at night but I might be mixed up some.

[Baklash]

I am not the least bit concerned about over penetration. If you are standing behind the individual that I'm shooting then you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sorry about that. If I shoot I'm going to fire more than once. If I can't stop an assailant with three solid shots to the torso shame on me. Ball ammo has worked ever since the .380 was invented and it feeds the most reliably of all the ammunition available for the .380. Call me old school.

OK, there are lots of possible scenarios as people have posted here.
Here's mine:
I have sneaked up behind the bad guy, both my arms are raised and I am just about to clobber him with a 2x4 when Muggsy shoots him thru the head. The bullet exits then turns and hits the bad guy in the wrist. It exits the wrist, turns again and goes thru the fleshy skin hanging underneath my arm. It's a minor wound, but I'm on the ground screaming bloody murder. At the lawsuit trial I show up in a full body cast and have to type all my answers with my middle finger, the only thing that is able to move. Muggsy has to come out of retirement to pay off the cash settlement I receive and I also end up owning all his guns, especially the Kahrs. Justice is served.:D:Amflag2:

[wyntrout]

I used the one that most people would unnerstand. I was tryin' to not get too technical.

I originally was thinking of using something about taking a dirt nap. :D

Ennyhow... being eviscerated isn't a pleasant experience :eek: and I hope to get my pistol out before that can happen... and empty a magazine... reloading as needed. I DO carry a spare Kahr magazine... a HIGH CAPACITY one, too.
:59:

Wynn:)

[muggsy]

OK, there are lots of possible scenarios as people have posted here.
Here's mine:
I have sneaked up behind the bad guy, both my arms are raised and I am just about to clobber him with a 2x4 when Muggsy shoots him thru the head. The bullet exits then turns and hits the bad guy in the wrist. It exits the wrist, turns again and goes thru the fleshy skin hanging underneath my arm. It's a minor wound, but I'm on the ground screaming bloody murder. At the lawsuit trial I show up in a full body cast and have to type all my answers with my middle finger, the only thing that is able to move. Muggsy has to come out of retirement to pay off the cash settlement I receive and I also end up owning all his guns, especially the Kahrs. Justice is served.:D:Amflag2:

Ah yes, the magic bullet senario. I know that one well. I just want you to know that if you are fool enough to stand behind the perp that I'm ventilating and get wounded that I'm not going to let you suffer. I believe in putting a fool out of his misery. :) Just sayin.

[muggsy]

ur brain tumbles alot to. Just sayin:amflag:

Did you guys hear something? I thought that it sounded a bit like a $2 Missouri mule breaking wind, or a braying jackass. :)

[Bawanna]

Well we all know why Missouri got the mules and Illinois got the Swedes.

[100percent]

That is easy... Missouri had first choice.



Bawanna gave a cleaned up joke....

Well we all know why Missouri got the mules and Illinois got the Swedes.